--- Day changed Fri May 13 2016
00:02 < jonasschnelli> sipa: I can't reproduce the issue... but you fix looks strange. :)
00:06 < sipa> without it, i just can't run rpc_tests.py
00:06 < sipa> it runs forever
00:08 < jonasschnelli> But you can run walletbackup.py independent?
00:11 < sipa> no
00:11 < sipa> see the paste in the PR
00:11 < jonasschnelli> hmm...
00:11 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Saw it...
00:11 < jonasschnelli> like to debug it locally.
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00:19 < sipa> maybe it depends on python version or something else
00:19 < sipa> but something very fishy is going on, as it's not just a race condition
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02:05 < nub> would it be possible to shorten the block creation time from 10 minutes to say 1 minute with a hard fork obviously dividing the reward by a factor of 10 that way confrimations would be much faster i'd imagine
02:06 < sipa> yes, it wod be possible with a hars fork
02:07 < sipa> a hars fork could also turn bitcoin into a frontend for paypal
02:07 < sipa> *hard
02:07 < nub> could you explain that?
02:07 < nub> is that bad?
02:07 < sipa> a hard fork is replacing the system with another system, where all participants agrwe to switch to different software
02:08 < sipa> it can change anything
02:08 < nub> could a soft fork change block time?
02:08 < sipa> the question "is x possible with a hard fork?" always has "yes" as answer
02:08 < sipa> no, a soft fork can't do that
02:09 < sipa> it would also be a bad idea, as it would result is 10 times higher mining centralization pressure
02:09 < sipa> and confirmations that have less meaning
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02:10 < gmaxwell> sipa: actually not 10 times higher, but likely much higher, since the relationship is non-linear. :)
02:10 < nub> how can we speed up transactions?
02:10 < nub> or confirmations
02:10 < sipa> nub: why do you want to do that?
02:10 < sipa> if you want them to be fast enough to work at a point of sale, you'll need different technology
02:11 < nub> im a store wanting to sell stuff accepting bitcoin but i dont want them to leave until the bitcoin is in my account....
02:11 < sipa> there is simply no way to get global consensus within seconds
02:11 < nub> that currently takes far too long
02:11 < sipa> 1 minute is also far too long
02:11 < sipa> you just can't use bitcoin blockchain transactions for that purpose
02:12 < nub> what if the purchaser uses the same hosted wallet platfrom as the seller
02:12 < nub> then it could be instant and no bitcoin would need to be sent\
02:12 < sipa> that wouls be one example of another technology
02:12 < sipa> now you're using the database of the wallet provider rather than the blockchain
02:13 < nub> something like cassandra replicated to datacenters all around the world
02:13 < sipa> if you have a centrally trusted party running those datacenters, it's easy :)
02:14 < sipa> but that's not a luxury we have for bitcoin the base technology
02:14 < nub> whats the aim of bitcoin now?
02:14 < sipa> this discussion probably belongs in #bitcoin
02:14 < nub> wanna move to there?
02:15 < sipa> i'm going to sleep, but feel free :)
02:15 < nub> is it ok to discuss how a hard fork could work here?
02:16 < sipa> it's easy: make a change to the code that does what you want, and convince the whole world to switch to that code
02:16 < sipa> and no, the interblock time is not going to change
02:17 < nub> what if it was a slow transition say a client which works on both and at a certain (ntp time) it switches everyone
02:17 < nub> could put that feature in a year beefore the planned fork so everyones updated to the client that supports that by then
02:17 < sipa> you'd still need to convince the entire world to switch before that fkag date
02:17 < nub> make the app do it automatically
02:18 < nub> bitcoin core
02:18 < sipa> bitcoin core does not decide what the rules of the network are
02:18 < nub> fair enough
02:18 < sipa> it very intentionally does not have an auto update function
02:18 < sipa> as developers shouldn't be in charge of the rules
02:18 < nub> it should
02:18 < sipa> it absolutely should not
02:18 < nub> and if not updated you can't connect
02:18 < sipa> it would make developers central bankers
02:19 < nub> devs could add whatever they want
02:19 < nub> what if i were to hire them all?
02:19 < sipa> try me
02:19 < sipa> i'd find another job
02:20 < nub> a surcharge could be added to mining which goes to devs instead
02:20 < sipa> but even if you could, hopefully the ecosystem would protest and stop using bitcoin core
02:20 < nub> wouldnt a 1 minute block time be welcomed for faster trasnactions?
02:21 < sipa> no
02:21 < sipa> it's a misconception that that would be beneficial
02:21 < nub> it works for litecoin
02:21 < sipa> "it works" does not mean it is better
02:22 < nub> would bitcoin devs be interested in incorperating and being paid to develop?
02:22 < nub> in america
02:23 < sipa> see https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/04/04/announcing_sponsorship_programme/
02:23 < nub> banks want there software to run on blockchain technology
02:23 < nub> we could be running the banks
02:23 < sipa> they don't need proof of work or miners
02:23 < nub> they dont
02:24 < nub> they need a special client which can create and destroy coins
02:24 < sipa> this is getting off topic, as you're not talking about developing bitcoin
02:24 < sipa> #bitcoin please
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03:41 < nub> could a soft fork increase block rewards
03:42 < gmaxwell> nub: no, and please take further discussion elsewhere.
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10:16 < GitHub189> [bitcoin] kazcw opened pull request #8052: rpc tests: increase http timeout (master...rpcwallet-test-timeout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8052
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11:23 < arubi> nub did remind me of a question I was meaning to ask. and I'm sorry if this is obvious.  suppose we have a way to send an input entirely as miners' fee, then "provably" receive it as an output from a generation transaction in a block that the input->fee transaction was mined on.  if everyone decides one day to use this feature, then could we discard any blockchain data up until the block that this happened, essentially making this new block 
11:23 < arubi> the genesis block?  this might even be a soft in its "forkiness".  a new client might want to start syncing from the new genesis, and and old client won't care that it happened?  this is very theoretical, I'm just looking to validate my understanding of how this could play out
11:24 < sipa> arubi: we can always declare a new block as the genesis block; just snapshot its utxo set
11:26 < arubi> sipa, is that the same?  why not do it?
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11:27 < arubi> well it's not the same.  I will still need to verify the utxo set to believe that it follows the history since genesis
11:28 < sipa> arubi: you can do it. copy your chainstatre directory from someone you trust
11:28 < arubi> but trust isn't needed if there's a mechanism like I suggested, right?  (maybe not)
11:30 < sipa> of course you need trust in your model; you're relying on the assumption that everyone accepts that the new genesis block is in fact derived from the old one
11:30 < sipa> and there is no way to verify that
11:30 < sipa> we have no technology that can verify the correctness of the blockchain without seeing it :)
11:31 < arubi> hm.  so you're saying that I'd still need to know the history up until that new genesis block, right?  I understand the issue if so
11:32 < sipa> you don't need to know it if you trust that it's there
11:32 < sipa> but that's no different from copying a chainstate from someone
11:32 < arubi> right. thanks sipa.
11:33 < sipa> there are ideas about committing the hash of the UTXO set to the blockchain
11:33 < arubi> oh, so the utxo set could be shared?
11:33 < instagibbs> arubi, miners would commit to utxo set
11:33 < sipa> which would allow you to for example download/verify headers up to 1000 blocks in the past, then download a snapshot of the utxo set at that point from anyone, and verify that it matches the hash in the blockchain
11:33 < instagibbs> spv trust for utxo set in other words
11:34 < sipa> HOWEVER that still involved trust: you've now switched from a model of no trust in history to trusting that miners would not commit to an invalid history
11:34 < sipa> which in practice may very well be sufficient, but it's a very different security model
11:35 < arubi> so I'd really be trusting the network to verify and relay the chain correctly to me?
11:35 < sipa> no
11:35 < sipa> you'd be trusting miners to not build a chain with invalid history
11:36 < arubi> but that's impossible now, if the network verifies
11:36 < sipa> that's true but irrelevant
11:36 < sipa> it's impossible because YOU verify, if you run a full node
11:37 < sipa> if you assume the network verifies for you, you're trusting them
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11:37 < arubi> right, so how is an spv node different in verifying the blocks?  is it about verifying the transactions themselves?
11:39 < sipa> an spv node assumes that miners will not produce an invalid chain
11:39 < sipa> (or that they're only connected to honest full nodes)
11:41 < arubi> I think I understand, like you mentioned that they verify the headers (and not the block itself?), they trust that what they're verifying is the actual chain verifying nodes use
11:41 < sipa> no, they assume that miners would not make an invalid chain
11:42 < sipa> (or that full nodes would filter out such an invalid chain for them)
11:43 < arubi> that's what I meant by "the actual chain..".  sure assuming miners won't produce an invalid chain is understandable, but if you somehow only connect to honest nodes, then you will not get it, and I see where this requires trust
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11:45 < sipa> well there is no "the actual chain", different nodes can have a different idea of what chain to accept
11:46 < arubi> true.  the best chain used by the reference client is probably more specific, but also impossible to expect from just connecting to random nodes
11:47 < sipa> no no, not by the reference client
11:47 < sipa> every individual node, even if they are running the same software, could have a different idea of what the best chain is
11:47 < arubi> I know, but there is physically only one best chain
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11:48 < sipa> no
11:48 < arubi> or maybe multiple "same height" chains.. that's bad in itself
11:48 < sipa> every indidual node has an idea of what the best chain is
11:48 < sipa> there is no guarantee that other nodes have the same idea
11:49 < arubi> I get that, but really the chain with the most work will overtake the others quickly, no?
11:49 < sipa> that's an assumption :)
11:49 < arubi> it worked so far, even on the chaos that is testnet :)
11:49 < sipa> and the correctness of the system relies on it, but it's anot a given
11:49 < sipa> it's the result of economic and technical properties
11:50 < sipa> and you change those if nodes in the network don't validate fully
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11:52 < arubi> or forks intentionally, or fails due to a bug, right.  correctness of the best chain that's advertised to my node is something I really took for granted until now
11:52 < arubi> well, not my fully verifying node
12:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> sipa: An example of a node not knowing what the longest chain could be is a sustained sybil attack correct?
12:04 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: or any normal fork
12:05 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: it's not so much "a node does not know what the best chain is", it is that there _is_ no best chain
12:05 < sipa> best chain is something local to your client
12:06 < sipa> and we build a system that aims to provide convergence: making sure that over time, blocks in the history of different nodes' best chains end up being the same over tim
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12:21 < Chris_Stewart_5> interesting. Thanks - it's easy to forget we have 5k individual computers running on this network that need to reach convergence on what is right
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14:17 < kanzure> those sleeps in the tests are architecturally unfortunate :( shouldn't this be stuff that gets pinged/notified instead of waiting forever aimlessly? e.g. crash could have happened seconds ago.
14:18 < kanzure> or is that intentional etc...
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