--- Day changed Thu Jun 16 2016
00:20 < jonasschnelli> paveljanik MarcoFalke: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8207 is this ready?
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00:37 < paveljanik> yes, we can fix the URL later
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01:56 < GitHub163> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/fb0ac482eee7...f7a403b4cf22
01:56 < GitHub163> bitcoin/master fa58e5e MarcoFalke: [doc] Add website links to about dialog
01:56 < GitHub163> bitcoin/master f7a403b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8207: [trivial] Add a link to the Bitcoin-Core repository and website to the About Dialog...
01:57 < GitHub19> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8207: [trivial] Add a link to the Bitcoin-Core repository and website to the About Dialog (master...Mf1606-LicInfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8207
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01:58 < GitHub171> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f7a403b4cf22...0a64777b909e
01:58 < GitHub171> bitcoin/master bc0a895 Pieter Wuille: Do not set extra flags for unfiltered DNS seed results
01:58 < GitHub171> bitcoin/master 0a64777 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8208: Do not set extra flags for unfiltered DNS seed results...
01:58 < GitHub118> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8208: Do not set extra flags for unfiltered DNS seed results (master...simplerservices) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8208
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02:04 < GitHub95> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0a64777b909e...e4bb4a85a551
02:04 < GitHub95> bitcoin/master 5d0ca81 Gregory Maxwell: Add recently accepted blocks and txn to AttemptToEvictConnection....
02:04 < GitHub95> bitcoin/master 6ee7f05 Gregory Maxwell: Allow disconnecting a netgroup with only one member in eviction....
02:04 < GitHub95> bitcoin/master e4bb4a8 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8084: Add recently accepted blocks and txn to AttemptToEvictConnection....
02:04 < GitHub166> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8084: Add recently accepted blocks and txn to AttemptToEvictConnection. (master...protect_recent_blocks) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8084
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02:07 < GitHub112> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e4bb4a85a551...62fcf27bd8d7
02:07 < GitHub112> bitcoin/master 6fa950a Jonas Schnelli: [RPC] Fix createrawtx sequence number unsigned int parsing
02:07 < GitHub112> bitcoin/master 62fcf27 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8171: [RPC] Fix createrawtx sequence number unsigned int parsing...
02:07 < GitHub191> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8171: [RPC] Fix createrawtx sequence number unsigned int parsing (master...2016/06/fix_crt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8171
02:07 < jonasschnelli> cfields_: I'm working on Qt5.6.1 fix... I can compile it.. but had to restore two .pc files. Any idea why Qt.5.6.1 does not come with Qt5XcbQpa.pc and Qt5PlatformSupport.pc?
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02:22 < wumpus> I don't think cfields_ is back yet :)
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02:28 < paveljanik> interesting, I'll again try new dmg installer on OS X
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02:32 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: that's curious! maybe qt git history will tell us something
02:32 < ws2k3> hello, my bitcoin core says no source for block available how can i fix this?
02:32 < jonasschnelli> Ah right. cfields_ is not here... 
02:32 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: I looked into it and could not figure it out... but maybe need to look closer.
02:32 < wumpus> ws2k3: fix your internet connection, usually :)
02:33 < wumpus> usually means it cannot connect to other nodes (on port 8333)
02:34 < paveljanik> jonasschnelli, https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-50073
02:35 < ws2k3> wumpus it does say 8 connection to the bitcoin network
02:35 < ws2k3> but in the left bottum it still says no source for blocks available
02:35 < wumpus> how long has it been showing that there is no source for blocks available?
02:35 < ws2k3> wumpus sinds i started using it(15 min ago)
02:36 < ws2k3> wumpus i already restarted it a few times
02:36 < wumpus> ok, no idea then
02:36 < wumpus> anything strange in debug.log?
02:42 < ws2k3> wumpus no nothing strange there i now have connection with 8 nodes it says. but it still does not download data
02:43 < wumpus> what is the output of 'getpeerinfo'?
02:44 < ws2k3> wumpus it shows a huge list i can pastebin if you want?
02:44 < wumpus> yes
02:44 < jonasschnelli> paveljanik: thanks!
02:46 < wumpus> also the output of getblockchaininfo would be useful
02:48 < ws2k3> wumpus i sended you a link
02:49 < wumpus> hm apparently the node is at block 136572 - which means it did download some blocks earlier on
02:49 < wumpus> but it isn't requesting any new blocks
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02:51 < wumpus> can you try: getblockheader 00000000000003ba98accad570d9b74fff1287508cbabb0955b54f0dc18ef64e  (that's the block after it)
02:52 < wumpus> ok this makes no sense, it is supposed to return BLOCK_SOURCE_NETWORK in every case that there is more than one network connection
02:53 < wumpus> so with those peers it certainly shouldn't be showing no block source available
02:53 < ws2k3> wumpus i runned the command and it gave me some output
02:53 < wumpus> looks like the GUI is stuck but it is actually doing something in the background?
02:53 < ws2k3> wumpus should i pastebin it
02:53 < ws2k3> wumpus it does not seem to do anything atm
02:54 < wumpus> if you call getblockchaininfo multiple times in a row does the number of blocks increase?
02:54 < wumpus> nah, not necessary
02:54 < ws2k3> wumpus no the block number does not raise
02:55 < ws2k3> wumpus but the network graph shows it does around 50 kbps
02:55 < wumpus> can you try reconsiderblock 00000000000003ba98accad570d9b74fff1287508cbabb0955b54f0dc18ef64e
02:56 < ws2k3> wumpus i runned the command output is emty
02:56 < wumpus> anything in debug.log?
02:57 < ws2k3> wumpus check link i pastebinned
02:58 < wumpus> 2016-06-16 09:50:28 ProcessMessages(headers, 162003 bytes) FAILED peer=2
02:58 < wumpus> 2016-06-16 09:55:51 ERROR: ConnectBlock(): tried to overwrite transaction
02:58 < wumpus> ouch, your database is broken
02:58 < wumpus> restart with the -reindex flag
02:59 < ws2k3> wumpus i did its not reindexing
02:59 < wumpus> ok then backup wallet.dat, remove the entire data directory
02:59 < wumpus> and restart
03:00 < ws2k3> wumpus sorry i made a typo. it is reindexing now
03:00 < ws2k3> 5 years 2 weeks and counting down
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03:07 < GitHub161> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/62fcf27bd8d7...3f89a534acfe
03:07 < GitHub161> bitcoin/master 1111b80 Pieter Wuille: Rework addnode behaviour...
03:07 < GitHub161> bitcoin/master f9f5cfc Pieter Wuille: Prevent duplicate connections where one is by name and another by ip
03:07 < GitHub161> bitcoin/master 1a5a4e6 Pieter Wuille: Randomize name lookup result in ConnectSocketByName
03:07 < GitHub63> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8113: Rework addnode behaviour (master...saneaddednode) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8113
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03:08 < GitHub188> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 6 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3f89a534acfe...9c3d0fab3623
03:08 < GitHub188> bitcoin/master 60ab9b2 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Squashed 'src/univalue/' changes from 2740c4f..f32df99...
03:08 < GitHub188> bitcoin/master 6315152 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge commit '60ab9b200654ef0914459711cf2b22be16be3dc2'
03:08 < GitHub188> bitcoin/master a406fcb Wladimir J. van der Laan: test: add ensure_ascii setting to AuthServiceProxy...
03:08 < GitHub4> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #7892: Add full UTF-8 support to RPC (master...2016_04_i18n_unicode_rpc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7892
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03:17 < wumpus> PSA: it looks like the build system doesn't detect changes to univalue source files and will not automatically rebuild the library: **if you get RPC test failures concerning unicode, please build from a clean tree**
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10:21 < GitHub98> [bitcoin] sipa pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9c3d0fab3623...66db2d62d598
10:21 < GitHub98> bitcoin/master c82a4e9 Suhas Daftuar: Use ancestor-feerate based transaction selection for mining...
10:21 < GitHub98> bitcoin/master 29fac19 Suhas Daftuar: Add unit tests for ancestor feerate mining
10:21 < GitHub98> bitcoin/master 66db2d6 Pieter Wuille: Merge #7600: Mining: Select transactions using feerate-with-ancestors...
10:21 < GitHub152> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #7600: Mining: Select transactions using feerate-with-ancestors (master...ancestor-mining) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7600
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10:25 < sdaftuar> woot!
10:25 < gmaxwell> Woot.
10:25 < Chris_St1> woot?
10:28 < sdaftuar> Chris_St1: i'm just glad ancestor feerate mining ("child pays for parent") was merged, is all.
10:49 < GitHub121> [bitcoin] jl2012 opened pull request #8209: Showing "not_applicable" if BIP9 timeout is 0 (master...patch-13) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8209
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11:19 < btcdrak> sdaftuar: congratz
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11:27 < jonasschnelli> sdaftuar: I haven't fully read myself through the CPFP PR. But how would this affect the wallet regarding fee bumps, etc.?
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11:28 < jonasschnelli> Usecase: how could you "unstuck" a tx with CPFP... just use your unconfirmed/stuck input in a new transaction paying higher fees?
11:29 < sipa> yes
11:30 < sipa> (though that's less efficient than RBF, as you'll need to pay for inclusion of two transactions)
11:30 < jonasschnelli> Okay. Thanks... but..
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11:31 < jonasschnelli> Could the enduser usecases be identical for RBF and CPFP?
11:31 < jonasschnelli> Something like the "bumpfee" API?
11:32 < Chris_St1> Has there been any effort to introduce property based testing? From what I can tell there isn't any in the code base yet
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11:50 < GitHub157> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli opened pull request #8210: [Qt] Bump to Qt5.6.1 (master...2016/06/qt_561) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8210
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11:57 < Frederic94500> When Segwit update is available and when he is activate?
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12:00 < wumpus> meeting time?
12:00 < petertodd> yup
12:00 < btcdrak> yup
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 16 19:00:53 2016 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < Frederic94500> Okay
12:01 < BakSAj> hi
12:01 < wumpus> topic suggestion: merge compactblocks for 0.13
12:01 < btcdrak> ack
12:01 < gmaxwell> I like topics.
12:02 < jonasschnelli> replacements (RBF/bumpfee) in 0.13
12:02 < btcdrak> segwit status
12:02 < jonasschnelli> ack for compactblocks topic
12:02 < sipa> topic: i propose pushing the feature freeze one week further for CB and segwit to stabilize
12:02 < gmaxwell> sipa: morcos: sdaftuar: jonasschnelli: btcdrak: phantomcircuit: paveljanik: 
12:02 < wumpus> I really don't like that\
12:02 < wumpus> we already pushed it back a month
12:02 < gmaxwell> sipa: hm. so feature freeze doesn't mean the software is done.
12:03 < wumpus> I really want to feature freeze this week
12:03 < gmaxwell> it's not like we're waiting for new features for these things.
12:03 < gmaxwell> Is the issue just that we're worred about destablizing master a bit?
12:03 < wumpus> note that it's okay to merge something that still needs some work given that it can be done before rc1
12:03 < btcdrak> CB is mergeable. any bug fixes woudl be minor and can be merged afterwards.
12:03 < wumpus> but we really want to merge things now
12:03 < sdaftuar> CB is not mergeable imo
12:03 < sipa> well CB and segwit cannot be merged both
12:03 < wumpus> of course it shouldn't leave master in broken state
12:03 < sdaftuar> also true
12:04 < sipa> not right now
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12:04 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: do you think it's mergable with the outstanding raised issues resolved?
12:04 < luke-jr> we can merge segwit+CB+CPFP and let them stabilise in master?
12:04 < wumpus> sdaftuar: you realize that means it misses the merge window for 0.13?
12:04 < sdaftuar> i haven't finished my review, but i raised some issues last night that i think need to be addressed
12:04 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: CPFP is merged now.
12:04 < btcdrak> luke-jr: CPFP merged
12:04 < luke-jr> oh, missed that, k
12:05 < sdaftuar> actually
12:05 < sdaftuar> bluematt hasn't updated yet to remove the work limit
12:05 < sdaftuar> that has to go
12:05 < sdaftuar> i hadn't bothered commenting because i was under the impression he's working on it
12:05 < gmaxwell> the criteria for merging isn't bugfree, its free of major architectural flaws or so full of issues we're not confident that it can be believed bugfree by rc1.
12:06 < wumpus> what about merging it and putting it behind an experimental option?
12:06 < btcdrak> sdaftuar: agreed, but it can be removed post merge in a separate PR.
12:06 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: I presume he'll remove it as soon as he's back on.
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12:06 < luke-jr> which topic are we on now? CB?
12:06 < btcdrak> yes CB
12:06 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: yes
12:06 < luke-jr> #topic Compact block relay
12:07 < gmaxwell> (thats why I asked if you'd think it would be mergable if the outstanding identified issues were resolved)
12:07 < btcdrak> CB is clearly working as it's being live tested in the wild by major pools.
12:07 < sdaftuar> there's DoS risk that has not been analyzed at all
12:07 < gmaxwell> btcdrak: that doesn't mean that there aren't outstanding issues.
12:08 < wumpus> what about merging it experimentally for 0.13.0
12:08 < luke-jr> btcdrak: well, so is X-thin.. working in practice doesn't mean reliable
12:08 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell: present
12:08 < sdaftuar> wumpus: that sounds fine to me
12:08 < wumpus> put itbehind an option, then when the outstanding issues are fixed, remove that in 0.13.1 or so
12:08 < sdaftuar> and we can use the time between now and the release candidates to make it more stable/reliable?
12:08 < instagibbs> here as well
12:08 < jeremyrubin> I'd like to see more limit options to address sdaftuar's concerns
12:08 < btcdrak> the point of the feature freeze is that the main bulk of the master branch enters a stabalisation phase.
12:08 < sipa> wumpus: i can live with that
12:09 < wumpus> the other option is to move compactblocks to 0.14
12:09 < luke-jr> wumpus: 0.13.1 shouldn't remove features IMO, but maybe changing the default would make sense
12:09 < luke-jr> I don't think CB can wait for 0.14, unfortunately
12:09 < jeremyrubin> I would also like to see more analysis on how CB would affect miner's txn selection
12:09 < wumpus> luke-jr: this would be adding features, not removing them, and yes it's cheating of a sort
12:09 < petertodd> jeremyrubin: I don't think that's a barrier to merging though
12:09 < sipa> jeremyrubin: without work limit, there shouldn't be any
12:10 < instagibbs> sipa, sorry what's the "work limit" here?
12:10 < wumpus> seems there are still a lot of concerns for CB. why so last minute?
12:10 < wumpus> why didn't this come up weeks ago?
12:10 < sipa> instagibbs: not checking the entire mempool
12:10 < instagibbs> oh ok
12:10 < sdaftuar> i've been reviewing segwit :P
12:10 < instagibbs> sdaftuar, why aren't you doing both simultaneously?
12:10 < gmaxwell> wumpus: these are implementation details and people have been reviewing other things, some are driven out of last minute opimizations matt added that he didn't need to add.
12:10 < wumpus> wasns't talking about you specifically sdaftuar :)
12:11 < jonasschnelli> we could delay 0.13 once again. There are no urgent features and the release due date is artificial. Right?
12:11 < wumpus> I know you focused on segwit, that's good
12:11 < wumpus> I don't want to delay 0.13 again
12:11 < jeremyrubin> sipa: without work limit there is also DOS concern (although limited by needing to re-connect)
12:11 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: thats not true.
12:11 < wumpus> too much slip and we can just forget 0.14
12:11 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: please, this isn't helpful.
12:12 < wumpus> 0.13 is good enough for a release right now
12:12 < luke-jr> release 0.13 without segwit+CB then, and merge those immediately for 0.14?
12:12 < jonasschnelli> I agree with wumpus: CB 0.13 as experimental (for our own protection) and non-exp in 0.13.1
12:12 < wumpus> it would be nice to merge CB, and i think we should, but it's not a requiremnt
12:12 < gmaxwell> lets take a step back there are two categories of remaining issue on CB,  one if the work limit stuff matt added recently. This was driven purely out of his unrelated UDP forwarding that is based on CB, which sent him into microsecond shaving mode.
12:12 < sipa> i don't want (1) keep rebasing segwit (2) wait until february 2017 for CB
12:12 < wumpus> sipa: me neither
12:13 < jeremyrubin> I think that segwit should take priority in merging.
12:13 < luke-jr> wumpus: 1 MB blocks is already killing; segwit without CB is likely to be a disaster
12:13 < sipa> i am fine with making CB experimental in 0.13
12:13 < petertodd> sipa: ack
12:13 < sipa> if there are a few days to work out the kinks
12:13 < jeremyrubin> sipa: experimental sounds fine
12:13 < gmaxwell> We cannot have SW deployed with no prospect of CB live nad in use.
12:13 < petertodd> gmaxwell: also ack
12:13 < wumpus> sipa: there's still until july 7 for the planned rc1
12:13 < sipa> wumpus: that should be plenty
12:14 < wumpus> but the point is we want to merge feaatures *now*, exactly so that the next weeks can be fixing the remaining issues
12:14 < BakSAj> guys, please dont delay segwit, whole community is watching you and we need capacity increase soon :-(
12:14 < gmaxwell> yes, the concerns there appear small. And indeed, we SW activation not set we don't need to have CB requesting enabled.
12:14 < sipa> BakSAj: this has no effect on segwit's activation time
12:14 < sdaftuar> must we merge CB now though?  i feel like the bug fixes are more likely to happen in the initial PR, than trying to clean up post merge to meet the feature freeze deadline
12:15 < BakSAj> oh ok then
12:15 < luke-jr> oh, we're leaving SW undefined on mainnet?
12:15 < sipa> luke-jr: yes
12:15 < sipa> luke-jr: until a backport to 0.12 is ready
12:15 < wumpus> sdaftuar: if we don't merge CB this week it misses the merge window for 0.13, and will be merged for 0.14
12:15 < luke-jr> ok
12:15 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: I assumed the outstanding issues raised last night will be fixed before its merged.
12:15 < wumpus> sdaftuar: bug fixes do not need to be done before the feature freeze
12:16 < wumpus> it's a feature freeze, not a bug fix freeze, that would be silly
12:16 < btcdrak> sdaftuar: it alows master to stabalise. Then we know there wont be hugely disruptive things getting merged post freeze.
12:16 < BakSAj> sipa: how hard is it to backport segwit to 0.12.2 ?
12:16 < wumpus> integration testing
12:16 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: can we keep the feature freeze date and alloc an addtl week for bug fix now?
12:16 < phantomcircuit> BakSAj: after the meeting?
12:16 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: we have until july 7th for that.
12:16 < petertodd> jeremyrubin: bug fix time isn't "allocated"
12:17 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: do you need an additional week for bug fixing? rc1 is planned for july 7, according to sipa that was good
12:17 < gmaxwell> the whole reason for feature freeze ahead of rc1 is to allow time for fixing and testing. :)
12:17 < sipa> i think 3 weeks to work out the problems in CB is sufficient
12:17 < sipa> they are details
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12:17 < BakSAj> phantomcircuit: yeah, sure
12:17 < jonasschnelli> sipa: ack
12:17 < sipa> my concern with merging is that the code has been in flux the past days
12:17 < wumpus> and that's only rc1, I'm sure there will be bugs in rc1, and we'll need rc2 rc3
12:17 < sdaftuar> i think so too, but it seems silly that we're merging a PR that we otherwise wouldn't merge to get around a self-imposed deadline
12:18 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: I know it seems stupid, but long time expirence with creep shows that deadlines have value.
12:18 < wumpus> sdaftuar: you don't think the release schedule is important?
12:18 < gmaxwell> Or another way to look at it, it's fine that some well known important features get fixes and evolution, but we need a bar against other creep.
12:18 < sdaftuar> wumpus: probably no point in arguing further.  i'll be happy to help work the bugs out...
12:18 < wumpus> sdaftuar: no, there is really no point in arguing this
12:18 < gmaxwell> (you don't want me submitting the n-th fold relay improvement or whatnot in the next couple weeks)
12:19 < petertodd> sdaftuar: well, I think gmaxwell has a good point that CB is very important to get in to be ready for segwit
12:19 < wumpus> and I'm kind of tired having to argue the value of having deadlines for every release
12:20 < gmaxwell> With a big team, bright lines are helpful. Even if they're sometimes objectively dumb.
12:20 < btcdrak> wumpus: well I for one appreciate the scheduling. It's more productive.
12:20 < Chris_St1> ^^^
12:20 < luke-jr> scheduled releases IMO are great; the only problem I think we're hitting is outside pressure to get specific things in sooner
12:20 < wumpus> I do agree CB is still a lot in flux
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12:21 < wumpus> which is why I brought up this topic in the first place instead of just merging it
12:22 < wumpus> so, ok, let's decide that CB still gets a week to be ready
12:22 < gmaxwell> Thank you.
12:22 < sdaftuar> sounds good to me.
12:22 < btcdrak> great.
12:22 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: can you clarify "gets a week" meaning
12:22 < sipa> wumpus: ack
12:22 < jeremyrubin> i think I am interpreting it as 1 more week till merge
12:22 < btcdrak> jeremyrubin: it get's merged next week.
12:22 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: can you clarify what is unclear about it?
12:23 < achow101> is segwit ready for merging?
12:23 < sipa> segwit is ready for merging, though i'd like to get review on the changes made the past few days
12:23 < luke-jr> I think it should increase the pkh length limit to 75 bytes, but not important
12:24 < wumpus> segwit is also still very much in flux
12:24 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: not too much... just a little unclear what the week is for etc
12:24 < gmaxwell> the changes were just related to merging it without an activation date, right?
12:24 < Frederic94500> Because the last night, there are 40K+ unconfirmed transaction
12:24 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: to finish up the pull request so that it can be merged
12:24 < sipa> they're mostly making segwit p2p deal correctly with having no activation date
12:24 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: but all ok now (I think you missed my second msg)
12:24 < sipa> and tests/nots
12:24 < luke-jr> Frederic94500: #bitcoin
12:24 < sipa> *nits
12:25 < btcdrak> and ticks
12:25 < gmaxwell> Okay can we move to the next topic?
12:25 < wumpus> #topic segwit
12:25 < instagibbs> luke-jr, noted, but I think that ship has sailed
12:25 < sipa> i don't think there will be any further changes to segwit necessary, apart from potentially making it cooperate with CB
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12:26 < sipa> we may find some edge cases in the transition between activation date unset and set, which i plan to actively help testing he next few days
12:26 < sipa> that is, assuming people find the review and testing it has had so far sufficient
12:26 < wumpus> so it would be better to merge segwit *before* CB?
12:27 < sipa> i don't care
12:27 < sipa> i'll help rebase either one on top of the other
12:27 < sipa> sdaftuar: opinion?
12:27 < instagibbs> sdaftuar, any outstanding concerns re testing?
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12:27 < wumpus> at the least we need to make sure one of them is merged asap
12:27 < wumpus> so the other one can be integrated into it
12:27 < instagibbs> wumpus, ACK
12:27 < gmaxwell> sipa: if you were to do the rebase which do you think would be less work?  I have a pref for merging segwit first due to review things.  (though I believe we can't set an activation for it without CB)
12:28 < sdaftuar> instagibbs: i'm doing testing now for the activation date unset -> set scenario
12:28 < sdaftuar> i'd like more eyes on that issue, as it only just came up
12:28 < Chris_St1> 'activation' is wrt BIP9 right?
12:28 < wumpus> otherwise we'll keep this 'we need to rebase it over X' problem, and integration (and fixing bugs in integration) always causes unexpected issues
12:28 < gmaxwell> basically CB is less to review, and fewer have reviewed it, disrupting review with a rebase there is less of an issue.
12:28 < luke-jr> merging CB first makes it potentially easier to backport if people want to
12:28 < btcdrak> Chris_St1: yes, the parameters for activation on mainnet (starttime, timeout, bit)
12:28 < gmaxwell> Chris_St1: BIP9 starting date, yes.
12:28 < luke-jr> but if CB needs a week of revisions, merging segwit first might just make more sense
12:28 < wumpus> the thing is though: CB is bound by the feature freeze, segwit is not
12:29 < luke-jr> especially since segwit needs backports anyway
12:29 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: a backport of CB without segwit wouldn't be very interesting in any case.
12:29 < jonasschnelli> good point wumpus 
12:29 < luke-jr> wumpus: it's less important so long as segwit has no mainnet activation params set
12:29 < luke-jr> IMO
12:30 < wumpus> luke-jr: just need to get the code into master, it's been reviewed and tested so extensively
12:30 < gmaxwell> yes the merge there is about code maintance.
12:30 < sdaftuar> wumpus: fyi the issue that came up this week about merging with no mainnet activation was a surprise to all of us
12:30 < BakSAj> isnt segwit the most reviewed btc code ever?
12:30 < instagibbs> sdaftuar, I can take a look too. 
12:30 < Frederic94500> Actually, there are 13K+ unconfirmed transaction and we need segwit
12:30 < sdaftuar> wumpus: i think that particular issue should be thought abou tmore
12:31 < sdaftuar> to make sure we haven't missed anything
12:31 < sipa> Frederic94500: #bitcoin
12:31 < Frederic94500> #bitcoin
12:31 -!- mode/#bitcoin-core-dev [+o wumpus] by ChanServ
12:31 < sdaftuar> sipa: but to answer your question about my opinion, i think i agree it should be fine to merge
12:31 < jeremyrubin> Frederic94500: it means move your conversation to that channel as it is off topic here.
12:31 < sdaftuar> i will finish my testing/review of the latest changes, and then hopefully ack this week
12:32 < sdaftuar> ie today/tomorrow
12:32 < Chris_St1> sdaftuar: So BIP9 parameters need to be set in the pull request before being merged into master correct?
12:32 < gmaxwell> Chris_St1: no, it can be merged with no starting date set.
12:32 < sipa> wumpus: segwit is merged this week or not at all, CB thursday or not at all.
12:32 < btcdrak> no. they will bet set later in a seprate pull
12:32 < sipa> wumpus: is that acceptable?
12:32 < gmaxwell> Which is what will happen for master.
12:33 < luke-jr> sipa: next thursday*
12:33 <@wumpus> sipa: CB needs to be merged before (or on) next week thursday
12:33 <@wumpus> sipa: segwit doesn't really have  a constraint
12:33 < sipa> wumpus: ok
12:33 <@wumpus> I just thought merging it first was preferable, so that maintenance and testing of it can happen on master
12:33 < sipa> yes, i agree
12:34 < gmaxwell> I'm really tired of not being able to work on some things due to avoiding disrupting segwit, it'll be good to have it merged.
12:34 < gmaxwell> :)
12:34 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Merging it before 0.13 would make things more testable/tested
12:34 <@wumpus> right
12:34 < instagibbs> Only a few ACKs so far, start cracking the whip!
12:34 < gmaxwell> all my focus is on things that were freeze gated.
12:34 < btcdrak> instagibbs: this meeting is one huge ACK :-p
12:34 < gmaxwell> (in the last week)
12:34 < jonasschnelli> I have reviewed SW for serval hours but I don't feel myself in a position to give a it a utACK (or more)
12:34 < sipa> i would also like to point to #8149 for review, where i've reorganized the commits per BIP
12:35 < sipa> it may make sense for people to just ack certain sections of it, as it touches many relatively unrelated things
12:35 < btcdrak> sipa: is #8149 the version to merge?
12:35 < sipa> (testing, wallet, p2p, consensus, script)
12:35 < sipa> btcdrak: yes
12:35 <@wumpus> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8149 for review with reorganized commits per BIP
12:35 < gmaxwell> I really like the ordering of 8149, FWIW.
12:36 < instagibbs> jonasschnelli, just pick a part you can review comfortably
12:36 < sipa> and don't look at the commit by github; there is a summary comment with a list of all commits organized per section
12:36 < sipa> which i keep up to date
12:36 < jeremyrubin> sipa: thank you it's much easier to review
12:37 < sipa> ok, any other topics?
12:37 < jeremyrubin> yes
12:38 <@wumpus> jonasschnelli had one
12:38 < jeremyrubin> I'd like to briefly call for more review on cory's cconman 
12:38 < jeremyrubin> refctor
12:38 < sipa> jeremyrubin: i will, but after 0.13
12:38 < jonasschnelli> I think we should have a replacement option for the wallet in 0.13
12:38 <@wumpus> #topic replacements (RBF/bumpfee) in 0.13
12:38 < sipa> ack topic
12:38 <@wumpus> jeremyrubin: when Cory is back
12:38 < instagibbs> cory is answering pr stuff now, but I think he's not supposed to be :)
12:38 < jonasschnelli> Also,... what happens if users start up a node and immediately send a tx?
12:39 < gmaxwell> am I missing something in thinking thats post 0.13 work now?
12:39 <@wumpus> oh, more review, yes that's always good, although peopel are very busy with pre-0.13 issues now
12:39 < luke-jr> cfields_: 
12:39 < gmaxwell> (the conman stuff)
12:39 <@wumpus> gmaxwell: yes
12:39 <@wumpus> gmaxwell: I mena, no, you're not missing anything
12:39 < gmaxwell> Thanks. whew.
12:39 < sipa> i'd to see conman go in right after 0.13 branch off
12:39 < sdaftuar> jonasschnelli: are you talking about how fee estimation should work in that case?
12:39 < sipa> *conmann
12:39 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: thats why there isn't attention on it right at this second (also because cory is out)
12:39 < jonasschnelli> Review of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8182 would be nice. Its a bumpfee command for GUI only.
12:39 <@wumpus> sipa: +1
12:39 < jonasschnelli> sdaftuar: yes
12:39 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: he's been responsive
12:40 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: but maybe let him relax a bit
12:40 < petertodd> jonasschnelli: yeah, my apologies for not having already looked at that!
12:40 < sipa> doesn't matter, there is no benefit in merging conman before the branch
12:40 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: I want that too. Well, I really want the sequence setting parts and fee even on the bump parts.
12:40 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I don't think "signals replaceability" is very useful
12:40 < luke-jr> "Enable fee bumping" would make more sense
12:40 < gmaxwell> er s/fee even/feel 50/50 on the bump parts/
12:40 < jeremyrubin> I brought it up not for the 0.13 but because it seemed like we were out of topics so I raised it, no need to address further.
12:41 < sipa> ok
12:41 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: you mean the text comment in the transaction details? Whats wrong with it. IMO we agreed on that term in a recent meeting.
12:41 < luke-jr> right
12:41 < gmaxwell> thats nits, can be worked out on the PR or out of meeting.
12:41 < luke-jr> k
12:41 < gmaxwell> please don't go into field naming details here. :)
12:41 < phantomcircuit> jonasschnelli, maybe this is just me, but i generally much prefer that things be added to the cli before the gui
12:41 <@wumpus> nits shouldn't be a reason to hold up the feature merge 
12:41 < jonasschnelli> Agree. The question is do we want a feebump option in 0.13...
12:41 < jonasschnelli> if so,.. its extermly late. :)
12:42 < phantomcircuit> makes the initial review much easier for the feature itself
12:42 < gmaxwell> So I think we really should have the sequence setting stuff, I kept trying to ack the prior PRs but they've been closed for new prs several times.
12:42 < jonasschnelli> phantomcircuit: there is also a CLI PR. :)
12:42 <@wumpus> jonasschnelli: especially for the GUI isn't [retty much too late
12:42 <@wumpus> jonasschnelli: as it adds new translation strings
12:42 <@wumpus> translation for 0.13 already started a few weeks ago
12:42 < sipa> that's sad, but understandable
12:42 < jonasschnelli> Yes. I agree. But I just think option to increase fees for 0.14 is to late..
12:43 < achow101> I think the fee bump stuff should definitely be in 0.13
12:43 <@wumpus> having the CLI option would make sense though
12:43 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: where did we land with bumping interacting with the changs outputs already having been spent?
12:43 -!- Sosumi [~Leon@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye]
12:43 < gmaxwell> achow101: I want a pony.
12:43 <@wumpus> achow101: 'should', but there's preactical issues with timing and planning we're trying to cope with here
12:43  * btcdrak gives gmaxwell a pony
12:43 < phantomcircuit> jonasschnelli, 0.13.1 ?
12:43 < sipa> achow101: i think we all like that, but we can't bypass safe practices for review and testing because we want it
12:43 < phantomcircuit> it's a minor feature
12:43 < jonasschnelli> Not sure if we want BP a bumpfeature...
12:44 < sipa> BP?
12:44 < jonasschnelli> backport
12:44 <@wumpus> to be honest I think getting CB and segwit is enough worry for next week
12:44 < jonasschnelli> yes... agree.
12:44 < jonasschnelli> Although it's a triangle. CB <-> SW <-> RBF
12:45 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2]
12:45 < petertodd> so, I'd strongly suggest we at least get in my global optin setting, so that people who need RBF can easily use external scripts to do so: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7132
12:45 <@wumpus> it's unfortunate that your PRs with feebump got little attention, but it's kind of late now, we can't just cram everything in last minute
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12:45 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: Agree.
12:45 <@wumpus> in any case: RPC functionality must be in before the GUI 
12:45 < Chris_Stewart_5> Did we figure the ordering for those merges? 
12:45 < jonasschnelli> My feeling is that it is too late for 0.13 and I just wanted to make this clear. :)
12:45 < instagibbs> petertodd, I agree with this
12:45 < sipa> i will focus on reviewing RPC bumpfee
12:45 <@wumpus> that's always how we work
12:46 < gmaxwell> wumpus: could we split the sequence setting parts and do those? I think they're simple and not risky and have been reviewed under several PRs.
12:46 < Chris_Stewart_5> segwit -> CB or CB -> segwit?
12:46 < gmaxwell> The issue for them is that those PRs kept getting closed with changing scope.
12:46 <@wumpus> gmaxwell: sounds good to me
12:47 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: we'll see how it goes with the actual timing of the changes.
12:47 < luke-jr> suggested topic: how should GBT react to pre-segwit miners, once segwit activates?
12:47 <@wumpus> make sure the API is extensible enough to add the other things so we don't need to deprecate it already next version
12:47 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: we don't need to decide that now.
12:47 <@wumpus> but that's arguably a minor concern
12:47 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: what does it do in the current implementation?
12:47 < Chris_Stewart_5> gmaxwell: Also, these are BOTH to be included before the feature freeze, correct? Or is that tbd 
12:47 < Chris_Stewart_5> to be determined*
12:48 <@wumpus> Chris_Stewart_5: no, CB needs to be in before the feature freeze, softforks can in principle go in any time
12:48 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: just errors
12:48 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: SW is freeze unrelated, CB has another week to mature. 
12:48 < sipa> luke-jr: what is the alternative?
12:48 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: the RPC call errors, that is. so the miner will failover or stop
12:48 < luke-jr> sipa: mine blocks without any witness transactions
12:49 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: question might suggest a misunderstanding, SW merge for master is not tightly coupled to deployment; it's mostly a discussion of code management.
12:49 < sipa> luke-jr: that means mining on top of a chain they have not fully validated
12:49 < sipa> oh, no, they have
12:49 < sipa> sorry
12:49 < luke-jr> sipa: no, the bitcoind is updated, just not the miner
12:49 < sipa> i'm confusing client and server
12:49 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: might be better to return an empty block, if the implementation would be simple.
12:50 < gmaxwell> the failover might just cause it to fail over to something even stupider.
12:50 < btcdrak> Chris_Stewart_5: the lifecycle page got updated to clarify some of this https://bitcoincore.org/en/lifecycle/
12:50 < sdaftuar> presumably this is not a feature that there can possibly be a lot of demand for.  is it relaly worth the trouble?
12:50 < luke-jr> I guess that's another option, but empty block is :<
12:50 <@wumpus> consensus changes are not on bitcoin core's major release schedule, the first release introducing segwit would ideally be 0.12.x
12:50 < Chris_Stewart_5> gmaxwell: I guess it seems CB from my understanding isn't tightly coupled to deployment either since I'm assuming old block relay code will still be in core? I'll ask more questions after meeting..
12:50 <@wumpus> but that doesn't mean segwit code can't be merged (just not activated) in 0.13
12:50 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: concern with non-witness template being code complexity, I guess?
12:51 < sipa> i prefer empty block
12:51 < luke-jr> I suppose empty blocks are also more likely to get noticed and upgraded
12:51 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: just more features to test when hopefully thats just an emergency fallback.
12:51 < sdaftuar> throwing an error should get noticed very fast
12:51 <@wumpus> Chris_Stewart_5: the old relay code will still be used in most cases, like with peers that don't support CB
12:51 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: error will result in failover to another daemon, perhaps without segwit support, which is somewhat less desirable. :)
12:51 < Chris_Stewart_5> btcdrak: Thanks
12:52 < sdaftuar> little known fact: those blocks will be orphaned,  that should also get noticed!
12:52 < petertodd> ack empty blocks - that's a reasonable failsafe in a lot of conditions in general
12:52 < luke-jr> sdaftuar: they won't, though
12:52 < gmaxwell> I think error and empty are both acceptable, with a small preference for empty that would be overridden if i find out the implementation is more than about 4 lines of code.
12:52 < sdaftuar> they won't relay
12:52 < luke-jr> sdaftuar: they're valid
12:52 < sdaftuar> yes
12:52 < sdaftuar> but they won't relay
12:52 < luke-jr> …
12:52 < luke-jr> why not?
12:52 < sdaftuar> hence, little known fact
12:52 < gmaxwell> ah, well if they won't realy, okay, well no reason to not error then.
12:53 < sipa> why would they not relay?
12:53 < sdaftuar> segwit nodes will try to download blocks from WITNESS peers
12:53 < sdaftuar> after activation
12:53 < sipa> so, this is a witness peer
12:53 < luke-jr> ^
12:53 < sdaftuar> not if it fails over
12:53 < sipa> just not a witness miner
12:53 < luke-jr> hm
12:53 < sipa> oh, i see what you're saying
12:53 < sdaftuar> sorry i was responding to gmaxwell's failover to an old daemon
12:53 < sipa> so, failover seems sufficient
12:53 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: this is a witness node, but asking what happens when a non-sw hasher connects.
12:53 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: OH!
12:54 < gmaxwell> well okay, that would get noticed too.
12:54 < luke-jr> yeah, I think this makes error the better behaviour
12:54 < gmaxwell> still, the crap blocks produced would be noise to non-upgraded nodes.
12:54 < petertodd> wait, did or didn't we remove the code that used to push new blocks to peers?
12:54 < sdaftuar> technically, mining a non-witness block on an upgraded peer would relay, as per sipa's suggestion to mine an empty block
12:54 < sdaftuar> i just don't think it's worth the trouble to code that up
12:55 < luke-jr> oh
12:55 < sdaftuar> code up/test/review
12:55 < sdaftuar> etc
12:55 < luke-jr> BFGMiner at least WILL submit blocks to local bitcoind regardless of what pool mined them, BUT it can only do that with GBT pools, and frankly nobody uses that
12:55 < luke-jr> so probably not worth considering IMO
12:55 < sipa> i think we're good
12:56 < gmaxwell> K
12:56 < sipa> unless miners complain about the behaviour
12:56 < sipa> then wr can reconsider
12:56 < sdaftuar> sounds good
12:56 <@wumpus> three minutes to go!
12:56 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: if you split that PR I will go ack the non-bump part super fast. 
12:56 < petertodd> also, if a block is relayed to non-witness peers, we only need one node on the network to bridge that gap...
12:57 < sipa> agree
12:57 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: which one?
12:57 < sipa> which their private infrastructure may do unknowlingly
12:57 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: the bump fee PR.
12:57 < luke-jr> petertodd: we don't *want* to bridge that gap, but I guess that's your point
12:57 < luke-jr> any malicious actor could do it
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12:58 < petertodd> luke-jr: having consensus depend on nuances of network behavior is icky...
12:58 < luke-jr> but on the other hand, these blocks are only defective in being not fully verified parents, which won't affect full nodes
12:58 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: the actual bumping reqiures review and testing for that I don't think we have time for pre-freeze regretable, but the rest (setting the sequence numbers and what not) is fine, and I've already reviewed it and tested it.
12:58 < luke-jr> so this can only be done for valid blocks anyway
12:58 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: okay. I'll try to factor this out in an independent PR
12:59 < instagibbs> 1 minute
12:59 < petertodd> instagibbs: hopefully we land on the drone ship this time
12:59 < luke-jr> petertodd: consensus doesn't depend on it, just a slightly higher risk miners don't upgrade their nodes
12:59 < phantomcircuit> sdaftuar, it should be only a few lines of code to simply not include any transactions which have witness data
12:59 < gmaxwell> (also, in general, layering in seperate PRs RPC and GUI is useful, since we're usually more eager about merging rpc features-- easier to test, more sophicated users)
12:59  * wumpus turns off thel lights
13:00 <@wumpus> #endmeeting
13:00 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jun 16 20:00:03 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2016/bitcoin-core-dev.2016-06-16-19.00.html
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2016/bitcoin-core-dev.2016-06-16-19.00.txt
13:00 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2016/bitcoin-core-dev.2016-06-16-19.00.log.html
13:00 < sipa> phantomcircuit: there are 3 transaction selection algorithms now
13:00 < sdaftuar> phantomcircuit: i agree, but this should not be anyone's priority
13:00 < Chris_Stewart_5> wumpus: CB needs to be merged in before 0.13 because the protocol version in the version message indicates nodes need to talk using CB?
13:00 < luke-jr> petertodd: I do think you've convinced me that maybe the empty-block behaviour is better again though.
13:01 < petertodd> luke-jr: by "depends" I just mean the outcome of the consensus protocol is strongly affected by that nuance, in that case
13:01 < petertodd> luke-jr: so in general, we're better off having an empty blockchain with everyone's funds frozen than other possible failure modes
13:01 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: hm? no unrelated. The issue is that if it isn't merged it would slip by something like a half year, which would be kinda dumb because the protocol is dumb.
13:01 < BakSAj> what is the meeting result on merging segwit? tnx
13:02 < petertodd> luke-jr: empty blocks work towards that goal
13:02 < Chris_Stewart_5> gmaxwell: Is this because of the release policy we have come up with or something inherent to the protocol itself? I guess I'm missing the limitation for not being able to put this out in a minor..
13:02 <@wumpus> Chris_Stewart_5: it doesn't *need* to be merged before 0.13, we could postpone it to 0.14
13:03 <@wumpus> Chris_Stewart_5: but because it is such a useful feature everyone really wants it in 0.13
13:03 < petertodd> though systems like Lightning are an annoying counterexample to the "empty blocks are safe" assumption...
13:03 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: there is nothing about the protocol being discussed today, this is all project management.
13:03 < Chris_Stewart_5> gotcha. 
13:04 <@wumpus> Chris_Stewart_5: also, because of bandwidth reasons people want CB with segwit
13:04 < luke-jr> does segwit currently fetch the whole block in one chunk, or stripped + witness separately?
13:05 < sipa> the whole block
13:05 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: there is no seperate thing, it's just a block and you seralize it with or without the witness.
13:05 <@wumpus> also CB is pretty much ready, it hasbeen tested extensively, and reviewed quite well, as I see it there are just some last nits
13:05 < GreenIsMyPepper> petertodd: w/r/t Lightning, i think with CSV, should be OK. transactions in-flight should be biased towards smaller values in the near term for the hard CLTV deadlines so impact for straight payments with empty blocks should be minimal but i'm not 100% sure
13:05 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: oh, it's not even supported to fetch just the witness data? :/  would be nice for nodes that skip it and go back and check later
13:05 < luke-jr> oh well, future improvements
13:06 < sipa> luke-jr: indeed, that may be something useful to add at some point
13:06 <@wumpus> no scope creep please :)
13:06 < instagibbs> action item: creep the scope
13:06 < luke-jr> CB changes things too much to consider it now anyway
13:06 < gmaxwell> fortunately the meeting is over so we don't have to take instagibbs' action.
13:07 < luke-jr> I think for L1 consensus, we probably want to bridge the old-node valid blocks to the main network :/  which means we might want GBT to do empty blocks for old miners
13:07 <@wumpus> topic for next meeting :p
13:07 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: really that kind of multistage sync is something independant of SW; it's just that it could be more efficient with segwit.
13:07 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: right
13:08 < petertodd> GreenIsMyPepper: it's ok for a bit, but given a sufficiently long period of empty blocks being mined eventually lightning users are really screwed over; that's not true for other ways of using Bitcoin
13:09 < petertodd> GreenIsMyPepper: not necessarily a problem in practice, but it's worth considering
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13:09 < luke-jr> sipa: is it trivial to configure a node to fetch and process blocks from old nodes?
13:10 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: going back to your earlier comments, per the lifecycle, changes for network consensus exist outside of the bitcoin core release cycle,  the reason we're talking about segwit merge in master here is not so much related to deploying segwit in the network, but related to managing the code implementing segwit in core as part of master. This is important to us because of the overhead
13:10 < gmaxwell> s related to keeping it as a patch in flight.
13:10 < GreenIsMyPepper> petertodd: yes, i agree, esp for time-dependent aspects during the switchover from mining->empty
13:10 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: generally a consensus rule change will show up in a point release, not in a new major release (though it might also be in the new major release in parallel)
13:10 < sipa> luke-jr: what do you mean?
13:11 < luke-jr> sipa: get a new node which downloads blocks from pre-segwit nodes, and relays them to the main/segwit nodes.
13:11 < petertodd> GreenIsMyPepper: yeah, the tl;dr: is Lightning means if Bitcoin breaks, we have deadlines to fix it or all hell breaks loose
13:11 < luke-jr> provided the block is valid without witness data
13:11 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: also consenus changes in core are often merged without any activation. (or in some cases with no nearterm plans to activate.. like the low-S signature stuff.)
13:11 < luke-jr> petertodd: softfork sequence stuff to skip empty blocks
13:11 < sipa> luke-jr: sounds trivial, just disable that check
13:11 < petertodd> luke-jr: that's not a crazy idea
13:12 < luke-jr> petertodd: it's not a new idea either :P:
13:12 < luke-jr> empty blocks are just full blocks with a soft size limit of 0
13:12 < petertodd> luke-jr: it's so not crazy, multiple people have proposed it :)
13:12 < GreenIsMyPepper> petertodd: additionally, i think the 2016-block mining retargeting point is an interesting factor to consider with second-order effects/drivers
13:12 < GreenIsMyPepper> when talking about stopping vs. empty
13:12 < petertodd> GreenIsMyPepper: how so?
13:13 < GreenIsMyPepper> in the sense that if the default was to stop, to encourage time for development, there's still a hard deadline of block retarget from part of the hashpower still mining
13:14 < GreenIsMyPepper> still mining for one reason or another
13:14 < sipa> luke-jr: all you need is one witness-capable node that attempts to download from its non-witness peers
13:14 < luke-jr> sipa: what's the segwit branch I should work on top of, for adding GBT old-miner empty block stuff?
13:14 < petertodd> GreenIsMyPepper: oh, nah, I was only talking about cases where ~all miners are mining empty blocks due to some kind of failure mode
13:14 < GreenIsMyPepper> which I suspect may affect default selection of CSV timeouts
13:15 < sipa> luke-jr: segwit-master or segwit-master2 (they are identical apart from commit structure)
13:15 < GreenIsMyPepper> ah, i see, i was thinking of different problems. yeah in that case, if you presume that as a "backup feature" then yes that would be impacted, that's a very good point!
13:15 < gmaxwell> GreenIsMyPepper: BIP-68 was setup so there could be other kinds of CSV counters in the future pretty easily.
13:16 < GreenIsMyPepper> yeah, not sure whether you could sufficiently punt the problem via only "don't count if the blocks are empty", but this is veering into -wizards territory :P
13:16 < gmaxwell> (so, e.g. when it's clear thats whats wanted, one that counted in terms of confirmed transactions could be done.)
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13:17 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: empty block mining will be more than 4 lines.
13:18 < luke-jr> possibly quite a lot, due to code movement (we populate "transactions" before checking deployments)
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13:20 < Chris_Stewart_5> gmaxwell: Thanks for the explanation
13:22 < phantomcircuit> luke-jr, select them and... dont use them
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13:26 < luke-jr> http://codepad.org/t97X9nU3 is a bit ugly, but *might* work   1 file changed, 9 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
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13:27 < luke-jr> note that we cannot modify the value inside pblock, as it is cached for (potentially segwit) future GBT calls
13:28 < luke-jr> thoughts?
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13:30 < sipa> luke-jr: why do you need to do that?
13:30 < luke-jr> sipa: this would avoid old miners failing over to possibly pre-segwit pools.
13:31 < sipa> just give a new on-the-fly constructed empty result
13:31 < sipa> instead of using the cached value
13:31 < gmaxwell> thats what phantomcircuit was saying.
13:31 < luke-jr> that's essentially what this is doing?
13:32 < luke-jr> just adds a few lines of code to add a variable and use it
13:32 < sipa> then why do you need to modify the cached value?
13:32 < luke-jr> I don't, I'm explaining why not.
13:33 < sipa> oh, i missed part of the conversation
13:33 < sipa> apologies
13:34 < phantomcircuit> sipa, i don't believe this is modifying the cached value
13:34 < phantomcircuit> it seems reasonable
13:34 < luke-jr> np
13:34 < sipa> luke-jr: can't this be generically applied to all non-force deployments?
13:35 < luke-jr> depends on the deployment.
13:35 < luke-jr> I don't see any reason we can assume it will be.
13:35 < sipa> or make the force field a tristate "no you can't use this without understanding", "you can make empty blocks without understanding", "yes you can always use this"
13:36 < luke-jr> not sure it's worth that until we have both kinds
13:38 < sipa> we only have two kinds now
13:39 < luke-jr> shall I remove the segwit conditional?
13:43 < luke-jr> eg http://codepad.org/gxEaJQpi
13:44 < sipa> sounds good; you probably want to add a comment to the force field to explain that it implies an empty block will be produced
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13:44 < sipa> what is the "unsupported" you report?
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13:46 < luke-jr> http://codepad.org/QSnQQRD6
13:46 < luke-jr> sipa: something to trigger BIP9-aware clients not to try merging the template
13:46 < luke-jr> ie, "rules":["unsupported","csv"]
13:47 < sipa> he, ok
13:47 < luke-jr> (how do I improve the comments on this?)
13:47 < sipa> is there any software in the real world that actually does such merging?
13:47 < sipa> anyway, does not hurt
13:48 < luke-jr> sipa: there is a fork of libblkmaker, not merged with BIP 9 code; but nothing uses it AFAIK
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