--- Day changed Fri Aug 19 2016 00:06 -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:18 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:24 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.101] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:26 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.101] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:30 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@82.201.93.169] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:31 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:35 -!- catsAREnotSECURE [~catvideos@95.211.209.73] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:39 -!- harrymm [~wayne@223.204.246.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:39 < da2ce7> jonasschnelli a ecdsa binary verify client would be very useful for other projects. It would be great to create something that could get support of a wider community. 00:40 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Maybe it could be coupled with gitian 00:44 < da2ce7> I would have something like a 'project definition' file. that defines the fields: serial, project name, version naming rules, public keys, n of m requirements, revoked keys, revoked releases 00:45 < da2ce7> and a 'witness file', that has a list of sha256 hashes, and signatures. 00:46 < jonasschnelli> You need to make sure the "project definition" (devs pubkey) must be covered by a sha256 during previous builds... 00:47 < jonasschnelli> This why it might be best if compiled into a binary or if its covered in the gitian assets file 00:48 < da2ce7> the project definition file should come with a self-witness, except that the self-witness is signed by all of the public keys defined in the definition. 00:48 < da2ce7> (ignores the n-of-m requirement). 00:48 < catsAREnotSECURE> Is there public disclosure of bitcoin holdings / wallets associated with specific developers? 00:48 < da2ce7> catsAREnotSECURE no, and off topic. 00:49 < catsAREnotSECURE> This question was intended for midnightmagic. The conversation began in #bitcoin, but for transparency reasons, I sought to move it to this channel. 00:51 < da2ce7> catsAREnotSECURE, well, I'm sorry for your mistake, please move it back to #bitcoin, or elsewhere. 00:51 < catsAREnotSECURE> One more comment and then that will be it. 00:52 < catsAREnotSECURE> midnightmagic, During the last meeting, there was discussion regarding the proposed implementation a system similar to that which Gitian is using, which features signatures of multiple developers, within the official binary / source distribution on certain operating systems. One proposal included distributing the GPG library and another used an alternate method for signature / checksum verification which would not require additional 00:52 < catsAREnotSECURE> libraries. The alternate proposal, determined by Wladimir van der Laan to be unworkable, intended to mitigate the requirement of an additional library by imbedding checksums within the blockchain. The alternate proposal was not included in the official meeting and was dismissed over stated concerns about existing nodes rejecting the transactions. It was acknowledged that either implementation would significantly increase client 00:52 < catsAREnotSECURE> security during the release cycle, affecting the majority of users, and it is speculated by my clients that either implementation would result in less (downward) price fluctuation. Right now, the security of the releases are highly dependant on admittedly vulnerable CA/TLS certificates and a single GPG signing key held by Wladimir van der Laan, with a lack of transparency regarding the level of security measures taken to secure this 00:52 < catsAREnotSECURE> signing key. During this "unofficial" meeting in #bitcoin, there were a minimum of 123 lines of comment from Wladimir van der Laan, all of which are not included in the "official" meeting log. Given the recent advisory on the website, regarding "state actors", there is speculation amoung my clients that conflict of interest disclosure and transparency may be insufficient amoung the Bitcoin Core developers. 00:54 -!- mode/#bitcoin-core-dev [+o sipa] by ChanServ 00:54 <@sipa> catsAREnotSECURE: take it elsewhere 00:54 -!- harrymm [~wayne@223.204.250.182] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:54 < luke-jr> then your clients should hire people of their own to work as Bitcoin Core developers; off-topic anyway, #bitcoin 00:55 < jonasschnelli> sigh 00:59 < da2ce7> jonasschnelli we need a constant 'Project CN', so that somebody doesn't release 'bitcotn-core' and project will ignore all the signing policies. - The verify app should also spit out warnings: "bitcotn-core" is very similar to "bitcoin-core". 01:00 < da2ce7> maybe a simple 'release' file will suffice. a release file has: project CN, sha256 of latest 'project definition' file, release name and version, list of sha256 of past release files, list of sha256 of binaries included in release 01:13 -!- Evel-Knievel [~Evel-Knie@d5152f744.static.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16 -!- Evel-Knievel [~Evel-Knie@d5152f744.static.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:17 -!- harrymm [~wayne@223.204.250.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:33 < wumpus> gmaxwell: god damnit, can it get any more scammy 01:34 < MarcoFalke> ? 01:34 -!- harrymm [~wayne@223.204.251.201] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:34 < wumpus> Someone in #bitcoin had 17 BTC stolen from them today because they came for tech support (their wallet was a couple years behind and they were wondering why they hadn't seen a payment yet) and someone wumpus and I were talking to, "moldish", pulled them into PM and got them to do a dumpprivkey. :( 01:35 < LeMiner> ugh... 01:35 <@sipa> :( 01:36 < wumpus> fuckers 01:36 <@sipa> do we need to put a warning in the qt console when using certain RPCs? 01:36 < LeMiner> could include a warning message on dumbprivkey that the outputs are private and anyone with the key can steal your coins? 01:36 < LeMiner> exactly 01:36 < wumpus> does anyone have info on that guy? 01:36 <@sipa> of course, then people may get users to run bitcoin-qt with -server... 01:37 < midnightmagic> wumpus: Yes. A tenuous link. 01:37 -!- mode/#bitcoin-core-dev [-o sipa] by sipa 01:37 < LeMiner> Not a bad idea 01:37 < luke-jr> sipa: jl2012 suggested an extra step to enable dangerous RPCs 01:37 < luke-jr> (which would warn) 01:37 < wumpus> luke-jr: +1 01:38 < wumpus> I think any private key leaking functions should be disabled by default 01:38 < LeMiner> And perhaps a topic message in #bitcoin that states to be cautious when people try to "help" you through pm's 01:38 < wumpus> both for the UI and RPC 01:38 * midnightmagic will change the topic immediately. 01:38 < wumpus> maybe a command line option to enable them 01:38 < sipa> LeMiner: nobody reada the topic message, but it can't hurt 01:39 -!- evoskuil [~evoskuil@c-67-168-100-165.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day...] 01:40 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:41 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@91.red-83-37-157.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:44 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:45 < wumpus> jcorgan: not really, I try to get back to that at some point 01:45 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@159.red-83-47-122.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:45 < wumpus> jcorgan: lots of things got in between, as usual :( 01:46 < wumpus> aim is still 0.14 I guess 01:46 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.130] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:48 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.130] has quit [Client Quit] 01:50 -!- catsAREnotSECURE [~catvideos@95.211.209.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8544 02:00 < jouke> wumpus: :( 02:00 < wumpus> jouke: yes thsi makes me really grumpy 02:03 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:08 < jouke> But, literally at the same time we were helping a customer on the phone to do a dumpprivkey :x. (Someone bought bitcoins to pay for cryptolocker, but didn't realise that it would take a while for Core to be able to send bitcoins). 02:09 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:13 < wumpus> "Someone bought bitcoins to pay for cryptolocker" :( 02:13 < wumpus> I'm going to take off today, sorry 02:13 < jouke> heh 02:13 < wumpus> stupid fuckers, sometimes I'm about to believe the story that bitcoin is just making it easy for people to be scammed out of their money 02:14 < jonasschnelli> Private-key-management will occupy us during the next years... 02:14 < jonasschnelli> But people also need to wake up... 02:15 < wumpus> yes, people need to take responsibility, or not use it at all 02:15 < jonasschnelli> Would you give someone (just met on the street), you wallet containing 10k USD to "fix an issue" with the opening zipper? 02:15 < wumpus> but things like cryptolocker ... bah puke 02:16 < jonasschnelli> Cryptolockers are evil, ... indeed. 02:16 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: not a random someone, but what if someone pretends to be e.g. a cop, people would be inclined to trust them 02:17 < jonasschnelli> maybe in Europe. :) But right,... people pretending to help on technical issues but then scam off one, thats just so bad. 02:17 < wumpus> but yes the threshold for trust should be even lower on the internet, you can almost never assume peopel are who them pretend they are 02:18 < wumpus> that's a much bigger problem than just bitcoin 02:18 < jouke> A lot of people are really trustful by nature. 02:19 < jonasschnelli> which is good IMO 02:20 < jouke> They should wake up indeed. But I lost a bit of confidence in "people" to be able to do so since I started with Bitcoin. On the other hand, a police officer once told me: "These people are allowed to vote". 02:20 < jonasschnelli> But I agree with wumpus, we should add some private key protections 02:20 < jonasschnelli> But the questions is then, if an attacker can manage to enable the protected features by setting a config value, etc. 02:20 < jonasschnelli> (if they already manage to execute dumpprivkey) 02:21 < jonasschnelli> Maybe warning are the better approach 02:21 < jonasschnelli> you need to call dumpprivkey twice... 02:21 < jonasschnelli> first time, it will response with a warning 02:21 < wumpus> a big red warning on top of the debug console 02:22 < jouke> Only to come to realise that people don't read :P 02:22 < jonasschnelli> or we could entirely disable dumpprivkey in the GUI 02:22 < jonasschnelli> (and dumpwallet) 02:22 < jonasschnelli> like most hardware wallets, there is no way to export private keys. 02:22 < jonasschnelli> (for core, except your using -server/d with bitcoin-cli 02:24 < wumpus> yes, ideally wallets wouldn't allow exporting private keys 02:25 < wumpus> jouke: what was the point of having the user do dumpprivkey? I hope he didn't have to give the private key over the phone? 02:26 < jouke> wumpus: no, we are very strict on not wanting to know the privkey (although it's quite tempting to just ask for the wallet). 02:26 < jouke> wumpus: to transfer it to an other "light weight" wallet. 02:27 < jonasschnelli> transfering keys is bad... 02:27 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.130] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:27 < jonasschnelli> transfering coins over on-chain transactions probably much better 02:27 < jonasschnelli> the fee should be worth the additional security 02:28 < jouke> Very often the payees of cryptolockers are businesses that are unable to work so they don't want to way for the wallet to fully synchronize. 02:28 < jouke> *wait 02:28 < jouke> Normally we tell people to just wait. 02:29 < wumpus> core should also warn better that it's unable to process transactions until it is synced, there's already a pull for that though 02:29 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8371 02:29 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-viyxkkckggiyhnvx] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:29 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Needs testing. 02:29 < wumpus> so that people don't get the idea that they can just make a receiving address and receive coins 02:30 < jonasschnelli> But what we really need is a SPV hybrid mode 02:30 < jonasschnelli> This would solve so much hassle. 02:30 < jouke> wumpus: *and send coins 02:30 < wumpus> jouke: well they can receive coins, but they won't see them until synced 02:30 < wumpus> jouke: and can't send them through either 02:30 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: sure, but tha's further away 02:30 < jonasschnelli> yes. agreed 02:31 < wumpus> just warning people and telling people what they're up to would already go a*long* way 02:31 < wumpus> we haven't been doing enough of that 02:31 < wumpus> always far-away technical solutions 02:32 < jouke> I like that pull request :) 02:33 < jonasschnelli> Needs testing.. will probably be in 0.14 02:33 < wumpus> at least it's much easier to merge than a SPV mode jonasschnelli:) 02:33 < GitHub82> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8250de13587e...36404aeec8c1 02:33 < GitHub82> bitcoin/master b4a9aa5 Wladimir J. van der Laan: qt: Fix random segfault when closing "Choose data directory" dialog... 02:33 < GitHub82> bitcoin/master 36404ae Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8540: qt: Fix random segfault when closing "Choose data directory" dialog... 02:33 < jonasschnelli> heh... indeed 02:34 < GitHub158> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8540: qt: Fix random segfault when closing "Choose data directory" dialog (master...2016_08_qt_choosedatadir_crash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8540 02:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.130] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 02:38 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: but yes we should really start merging some GUI changes for 0.14 02:38 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: so much open 02:39 < jonasschnelli> Yes. But mosts things are not ready 02:39 < jonasschnelli> But will have a look next week 02:39 < wumpus> 0.14 is still far away, so merging something not-entirely-perfect-yet that can be improved later is actually ok 02:40 < jonasschnelli> Yes 02:40 < wumpus> incremental development tends to work better for GUI 02:41 < wumpus> ooh https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8517 is cool 02:41 < wumpus> I completely missed that one 02:41 < jonasschnelli> I'm finishing my QT Mempool stats PR, then I'll focus on getting things in 02:41 < jonasschnelli> 8517 is mostly ready IMO 02:41 < jonasschnelli> Needs some Win/Linux testing I guess 02:42 < jonasschnelli> And I think I need to run optimizepngs 02:43 < wumpus> going to test it 02:44 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/spudowiar] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:55 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57 < GitHub3> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #8545: [doc] Update git-subtree-check.sh README (master...Mf1608-doc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8545 03:07 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.130] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:11 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@198pc231.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:11 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@198pc231.sshunet.nl] has quit [Changing host] 03:11 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:15 -!- ArthurNumbanumba [~ArthurNum@h247079.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:17 -!- Megaf [~quassel@unaffiliated/megaf] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:19 < GitHub39> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/36404aeec8c1...f4e777819c54 03:19 < GitHub39> bitcoin/master 65f4532 Jameson Lopp: document return value of networkhashps for getmininginfo RPC endpoint 03:19 < GitHub39> bitcoin/master f4e7778 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8461: document return value of networkhashps for getmininginfo RPC endpoint... 03:19 < GitHub3> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8461: document return value of networkhashps for getmininginfo RPC endpoint (master...rpcMiningHelp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8461 03:24 -!- ArthurNumbanumba [~ArthurNum@h247079.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:31 -!- cheese_ [~x@unaffiliated/cheeseo] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:34 < GitHub140> [bitcoin] mcccs opened pull request #8546: Remove IP transaction check [CLEAN] (master...abc123) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8546 03:34 < GitHub142> [bitcoin] mcccs closed pull request #8538: Remove IP transaction check (master...Ip-check) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8538 03:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.130] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 03:38 -!- ArthurNumbanumba [~ArthurNum@h247079.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40 -!- Megaf [~quassel@unaffiliated/megaf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52 -!- Lysander1 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timeout: 276 seconds] 07:25 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:26 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:27 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:30 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:33 -!- Megaf [~quassel@unaffiliated/megaf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:35 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:36 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:38 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:50 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:52 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:13 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell, sipa: what do you think about the following approach: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ecdsa_sig.txt 08:14 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:18 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:20 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:21 < gmaxwell> Requiring QT is problematic, since many (esp high security) users are headless cli users. This sounds like it is not (many) fewer steps then verifying with gpg? it sounds like you're thinking the user will seperately download the software, but then verify it with this which will also make outbound connections? 08:21 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:23 < gmaxwell> My suggestion is that we make it so there is a single download which contains all the verification information. Just one file. And have it so the tool can either take this one file provided by the user and verify it and if it passes, unpack and install it, or it can fetch it + verify it (then unpack and install it). 08:24 -!- cryptapus is now known as cryptapus_afk 08:25 < gmaxwell> it's important that its also easy to use the tool without it making network connections, so that it can be used on offline hosts, and also not "phone home" every time bitcoin is installed, which would make it easy to track who is using it. (both who is using bitcoin and who is using it with/without verifying-- we want a network attacker to not be able to tell users who verify from users who don' 08:25 < gmaxwell> t) 08:25 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:26 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Good point.. make sense. 08:28 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: regarding "single download", Isn't grabbing the sources from a GPG signed github repository more secure? 08:28 < jonasschnelli> Hmm... no... not really 08:28 -!- kadoban [~mud@unaffiliated/kadoban] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:28 < jonasschnelli> Agree, we could provide a single witness file along with the binaries 08:29 < jonasschnelli> If additional signature follow after the release, we could update the witness file. 08:29 < gmaxwell> then thats two files, which would be unfortunate (bad for usability) 08:29 < jonasschnelli> What would speak against replacing the witness file... 08:29 < jonasschnelli> ? 08:30 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Or do you mean a "single download" would be the verifing tool including the witness data? 08:30 < gmaxwell> By two files I mean "bitcoin" and "the witness" if there are two files someone watching the network can tell which users check and which don't, and someone checking on an offline computer has two files to download and copy across, so they won't. 08:30 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:31 < gmaxwell> I mean the bitcoin core update and the signatures for it should be a single file. The download/verifying tool can both be included in it, and available seperately (for the first time user). 08:31 < jonasschnelli> ah... 08:31 < jonasschnelli> yes.. 08:32 < jonasschnelli> Though, there would be a file-package (including sigs) per platform I guess 08:33 < gmaxwell> Right, I guess I'd suggest we include in the tar a dummy file the size of the witness. And the signing tool would fill that in, and the verify tool would mask out the dummy file. Or something like that. 08:33 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/spudowiar] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:33 < gmaxwell> it's a little unfortunate to have to uncompress an unverified file, but I see no way around that. 08:33 < jonasschnelli> or just & 08:34 < gmaxwell> do you mean concatinate them? 08:34 < jonasschnelli> It would be a "new file format"... but I guess that doesn't matter 08:34 < jonasschnelli> yes 08:34 < jonasschnelli> also it prevents from users extracting the tar without verifing. 08:34 < jonasschnelli> Once it was verified, it'll copy out the "pure" tag 08:34 < jonasschnelli> tar 08:34 < gmaxwell> well that would be simpler, unfortunately it would mean a network observer could tell who was downloading those files vs the plain tar files, unless we stopped distributing plain tar files. 08:35 < gmaxwell> I do like that that is much easier to implement. :) 08:35 < jonasschnelli> stopping the plain tar files would probably good, but people will complain. :) 08:35 < jonasschnelli> *be good 08:36 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@jupiter.osmus.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:36 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@jupiter.osmus.org] has quit [Changing host] 08:36 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@unaffiliated/cryptapus] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:36 < jonasschnelli> I think forcing user to verify the binaries would be good security pratice. 08:37 < gmaxwell> Yes, but using a web wallet because bitcoin core install required an extra, foreign, step would not be. :) 08:37 < jonasschnelli> indeed... 08:38 < gmaxwell> my expectation is that users would use a traditional, insecure method to do their first install. You really can't do better than that, since even the verify tool itself would need to be installed. 08:38 < jonasschnelli> Assume the signatures file is in the tar,.. I guess you can just extract a single file 08:38 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:38 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: yes, the trickyness is with verifying you need to verify everything except that file. Which means masking it out. 08:38 < jonasschnelli> Yes. First install of the verify tool should be verified through gitian-verify 08:38 < sipa> do we need a tar parser then...? 08:39 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:39 < jonasschnelli> Hmm.. tar dependency would be bad I guess 08:39 < jonasschnelli> Can we not just append the signatures files to the tar so that the tar can still be deflated properly? 08:39 < jonasschnelli> hidden-append... 08:39 < gmaxwell> https://github.com/Gottox/sltar 200 lines of code? 08:40 < jonasschnelli> does that include the gzip? 08:40 < gmaxwell> we could start distibuing the software as shell archives, much easier to extract data from them. :P 08:41 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@unaffiliated/cryptapus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:41 < jonasschnelli> A tar.gz that includes the binary as a tar.gz and the signatures? 08:42 < jonasschnelli> we provide signatures only for the "inner" binary tar.gz 08:43 < jonasschnelli> and would also work with the OSX .dmg and window .exe 08:43 -!- MarcoFalke [~marco@host10-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:44 -!- Giszmo [~leo@2001:a61:3288:fe01:a4ce:f633:9464:fc9e] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:44 < kanzure> user can open a port on their machine, provide a login to the ripple foundation, and then the ethereum team can deliver the payload in one step 08:44 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45 < kanzure> sltar looks cool. this might even be human-memorizable. 08:46 < wumpus> why would the signature files need to be in a tar? 08:46 < wumpus> just go old school, concatenate binary ecdsa signatures 08:46 < jonasschnelli> to avoid network observers to detect who download the signatures and who not as gmaxwell mentioned 08:46 < wumpus> yes, well, it doesn't matter in what format it is then right? 08:46 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: but that would require to split of the signatures if you just want to install it without verifing 08:47 < wumpus> the user has to download the file with signatures anyhow 08:47 < kanzure> i thought the concern was re: have a single download 08:47 -!- Lysander1 [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:47 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: not if we make the verification optional 08:47 < wumpus> attaching signatures to the download itself isn't really an option; this would invalidate the sha256 hashes 08:47 < jonasschnelli> and would you also add the signatures to the .exe NSI installer? :) 08:48 -!- thesnark [~mike@unaffiliated/thesnark] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:48 < wumpus> no 08:48 < jonasschnelli> Just provide a "meta"-tar that includes the exe/dmg/tar.gz (where we provide hashes/sigs) 08:48 < wumpus> just a replacement/addition to sha256sums.txt, that contains ecdsa signatures connected from by all gitian builders 08:48 < wumpus> coLLected 08:49 < jonasschnelli> Also fine for me. 08:49 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell said we should use just a single download 08:49 < wumpus> that would be one additional file in addition to the one you want 08:49 < jonasschnelli> to avoid network observers to detect who did download the sigs and who not 08:49 < wumpus> sigh 08:49 < jonasschnelli> hehe.. :) 08:49 < wumpus> I can just smell the scope creep 08:50 < wumpus> don't let gmaxwell get involved in this except for security review :) 08:50 -!- Lysanders [~Lysanders@unaffiliated/lysanders] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:50 < jonasschnelli> We could start with an additional signatures file (per release including all platforms/binaries) 08:50 < kanzure> re: "one additional file" -- i thought that was the point of tar? :) 08:50 < wumpus> otherwise we'll never have an actually deployable product, just a lot of nice theory 08:50 < wumpus> :P 08:50 < jonasschnelli> though, that signature file may be changed after a release if we get additional signatures 08:51 < wumpus> yes, additional signatures could be added to that file 08:51 < jonasschnelli> But its a manual process I guess... which sucks 08:51 < wumpus> it's just a concatentation of people's signatures of the same thing 08:51 < jonasschnelli> The gitian.sig repo would probably be simpler 08:51 < wumpus> could be fully automated 08:51 < wumpus> python scirpt that pulls stuff from git 08:51 < wumpus> concatenates it 08:51 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Why not 08:51 < wumpus> drops it on the site 08:51 < wumpus> voila 08:52 < jonasschnelli> But not sure if the site is protected with some non-automatable 2FA technique or so. 08:52 < wumpus> could run in a crontab such 08:52 < wumpus> it could be any site 08:52 < jonasschnelli> crontab means the credentials must be available on that machine 08:52 < wumpus> where to drop the signatures? that's a good question 08:52 < jonasschnelli> yes. Could be a different site 08:52 < wumpus> heck, it could be a githib statically hosted site 08:52 < jonasschnelli> indeed 08:52 < wumpus> laanwj.github.com/bla 08:52 < jonasschnelli> Even simpler... it could be in gitian.sigs 08:53 < jonasschnelli> or yes... on a static site 08:53 < wumpus> could be, but rememer it needs to be a static http site 08:53 < wumpus> putting it on github has the https probem again 08:53 < wumpus> well, I mean as a git-based on github 08:53 < wumpus> github static sites are http 08:53 < jonasschnelli> We could add libcurl to our dependencies... *duck* 08:53 < wumpus> :-( 08:53 < jonasschnelli> But wait! 08:54 < jonasschnelli> We could use Qt headless 08:54 < jonasschnelli> no need to build windows. 08:54 < wumpus> the point would be to make the user download it themselves I think 08:54 < wumpus> if it needs to work without network conenction 08:54 < jonasschnelli> both could be possible... 08:54 < wumpus> or just use libevent's http client? 08:54 < wumpus> we already have that 08:55 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Why not... 08:55 < wumpus> it's super-simple, but good enough to fetch a simple small binary or text file, if you really want 08:55 < wumpus> (over http though, forget https) 08:56 < wumpus> we have secp256k1 for signature verification, we have sha256 hashing, and we can fetch files over http through evhttp. I think all the components are there 08:56 < jonasschnelli> Yes 08:57 < wumpus> (that doesn't mean the implementation is trivial! but let's not talk about adding dependencies :-) 08:57 < jonasschnelli> On OSX and Windows, the verify tool should probably have a GUI 08:58 < wumpus> it also doesn't need to rely on qt, although for end-users a qt user interface for it would be nice 08:58 < wumpus> ye 08:58 < jonasschnelli> We could detect the platform (or maybe if a WM is attached on Linux) and create a UI in that case 08:58 < jonasschnelli> Or.. 08:58 < jonasschnelli> we provide the verification-feature in Bitcoin-Qt and in the new cli only verify tool 08:58 < wumpus> yea, or have separate verification-cli and verification-gui executables 08:59 < jonasschnelli> or that. yes 08:59 < wumpus> right, that is possible too 08:59 < jonasschnelli> But another GUI tool would require some tweaks in the EXE/DMG deployment 08:59 < wumpus> it has the advantage of not having to package qt twice, as long as we still statically lnk 08:59 < wumpus> right, and that 09:00 < wumpus> so having only one GUI executable which has it as extra menu option would be better probably 09:00 < jonasschnelli> Ah. Yes 09:00 < jonasschnelli> Indeed 09:00 < wumpus> then have a seprrate cli verification executable 09:00 < jonasschnelli> Okay... will try to work out something... 09:01 < wumpus> thanks! 09:01 < jonasschnelli> For creating the signatures, I guess it can be a third party tool.. don't need to be part of Bitcoin-Core 09:02 < wumpus> certainly not 09:02 < wumpus> I'll just roll some script for that, don't worry about that side :) 09:03 -!- Kexkey [~kexkey@184.75.213.131] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:05 < wumpus> I'll have a try at the gitian builder side 09:06 < wumpus> (I wasn't serious about gmaxwell, to be clear) 09:07 < gmaxwell> Why would we create a shitty NIH version of the openbsd signify tool? 09:07 < gmaxwell> There is no security advantage from just changing the underlying cryptosystem. 09:07 < wumpus> it's just easier to integrate in our software than using gpg 09:08 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:09 < wumpus> if we could integrate a gpg lib and fetch the signatures from gitian.sigs repository and verify directly (like gitian-downloader) it'd be much more straightforward, but we need something that can be integrated into our software release right? 09:09 < jonasschnelli> Yes 09:10 < GitHub20> [bitcoin] btcdrak opened pull request #8547: Update btcdrak key with new expiry dates (master...btcdrak-key) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8547 09:32 < GitHub196> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #8548: [wallet] Use __func__ to get function name for output printing (master...Mf1608-walletFunc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8548 09:36 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:39 < GitHub187> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f4e777819c54...56ac0469609a 09:39 < GitHub187> bitcoin/master 7e5d94d Jonas Schnelli: [Wallet] Trivial cleanup of HD wallet changes 09:39 < GitHub187> bitcoin/master 56ac046 Jonas Schnelli: Merge #8443: [Wallet] Trivial cleanup of HD wallet changes... 09:39 < GitHub184> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli closed pull request #8443: [Wallet] Trivial cleanup of HD wallet changes (master...2016/08/hd_fixes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8443 09:48 < GitHub136> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/56ac0469609a...2468292a0353 09:48 < GitHub136> bitcoin/master 914154f Jonas Schnelli: [Qt] add HD enabled/disabled icon to the status bar 09:48 < GitHub136> bitcoin/master 2468292 Jonas Schnelli: Merge #8517: [Qt] show wallet HD state in statusbar... 09:48 < GitHub179> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli closed pull request #8517: [Qt] show wallet HD state in statusbar (master...2016/08/hd_gui) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8517 09:59 -!- cryptapus_afk is now known as cryptapus 10:06 -!- Guest79951 [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:07 -!- zooko 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laurentmt] 11:47 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:49 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/spudowiar] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 11:58 -!- kadoban [~mud@unaffiliated/kadoban] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:11 -!- JZA [JZA@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-wavsileelsvwmtlm] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:11 -!- JZA [JZA@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-qryrshdsaekzjmlv] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:11 -!- JZA [JZA@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-qryrshdsaekzjmlv] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:23 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ppp-188-174-83-201.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:31 < GitHub95> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli opened pull request #8550: [Qt] Add interactive mempool graph (master...2016/08/stats_qt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8550 12:54 -!- eragmus [sid136308@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-euknuprnwapdmjif] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:55 -!- eragmus 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Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:35 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:36 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:38 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:53 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:04 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:06 -!- kadoban [~mud@unaffiliated/kadoban] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:11 < phantomcircuit> is travis still broken? 20:11 < phantomcircuit> cfields: wumpus ^ 20:22 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:28 < btcdrak> phantomcircuit: itnis fixed. the offending commit was reverted. 20:28 < btcdrak> it is* 20:41 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:54 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 21:29 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 22:09 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined 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[Author] [~Author]@2401:a400:3202:2000:bad:d09:15:90d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04 -!- [Author] [~Author]@2401:a400:3202:2000:bad:d09:15:90d] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:29 -!- kadoban [~mud@unaffiliated/kadoban] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:39 -!- harrymm [~wayne@223.204.247.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:49 -!- cfields_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:49 -!- Eliel_ [~jojkaart@104-250-47-212.rev.cloud.scaleway.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:50 -!- jouke_ [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:50 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:51 < GitHub40> [bitcoin] PrinceofOrange opened pull request #8552: Bitcoin 139 d4.9 (master...bitcoin-139-d4.9) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8552 23:51 -!- NicolasDorier_ [sid129442@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gutqlborugdapqoa] has joined 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