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03:18 < luke-jr> I wonder if split HD should have had a 3rd category for refund addresses :x
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04:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f7388e93d3dd...b5f9f025fef0
04:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bc9c0a7 Russell Yanofsky: Improve wallet-accounts test...
04:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b5f9f02 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11552: Improve wallet-accounts test...
04:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11552: Improve wallet-accounts test (master...pr/acctt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11552
04:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b5f9f025fef0...0dec4cc30044
04:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9db9d62 gnuser: Refactor: make the read function simpler
04:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0dec4cc Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11221: Refactor: simpler read...
04:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11221: Refactor: simpler read (master...refactor-streams) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11221
04:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0dec4cc30044...331352f99f23
04:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 16be7dd Florian Schmaus: Improve bitcoind systemd service file...
04:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 331352f Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #10529: Improve bitcoind systemd service file...
04:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #10529: Improve bitcoind systemd service file (master...systemd-service) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10529
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04:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/331352f99f23...0ecc6305f464
04:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b411c2a João Barbosa: Improve -disablewallet parameter interaction
04:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7963335 João Barbosa: Fix -disablewallet default value
04:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0ecc630 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11594: Improve -disablewallet parameter interaction...
04:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11594: Improve -disablewallet parameter interaction (master...2017-11-disable-wallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11594
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04:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0ecc6305f464...ef3758d1ef73
04:39 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b109a1c practicalswift: Remove redundant nullptr checks before deallocation...
04:39 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ef3758d Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #10696: Remove redundant nullptr checks before deallocation...
04:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #10696: Remove redundant nullptr checks before deallocation (master...delete-nullptr) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10696
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04:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #9716: [Net] Clarity TIMEOUT_INTERVAL constant meaning. (master...2017-02-07-ping-timeout-interval) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9716
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05:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #10890: libbitcoinconsensus: Add version field to pkg-config info file (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10890
05:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ef3758d1ef73...77ba4bf960d3
05:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5a5e4e9 Karl-Johan Alm: [wallet] Remove CTransaction&() helper conversion operator from wallet implementation.
05:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 77ba4bf Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #10368: [wallet] Remove helper conversion operator from wallet...
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05:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #10368: [wallet] Remove helper conversion operator from wallet (master...wallet-refactor-remove-ctrans-helper) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10368
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06:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/77ba4bf960d3...99ec12666ba7
06:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6c4042a Eelis: Assert that CWallet::SyncMetaData finds oldest transaction....
06:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 99ec126 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11074: Assert that CWallet::SyncMetaData finds oldest transaction....
06:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11074: Assert that CWallet::SyncMetaData finds oldest transaction. (master...syncassert) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11074
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06:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] morcos closed pull request #9447: Allow 2 simultaneous block downloads (master...doubledownload) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9447
06:42 < Drakon_> I'd like to provide a (feature) suggestion. Should I address at #bitcoin in order to do so?
06:43 < luke-jr> sounds like a good place to start
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06:45 < wumpus> yes, this is not the place for feature suggestions, unless you're planning to implement it yourself and having questions about how to do so
06:51 < Drakon_> This isn't my current intention, at least not at the moment. So where to address my suggestion?
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06:54 < wumpus> #bitcoin as suggested
06:57 < Drakon_> Well sorry, but I'm a little bit confuse since you wrote "this is not the place for feature suggestions ..."
06:58 < luke-jr> this isn't #bitcoin
06:58 < Drakon_> Well sorry, I messed this up.
07:02 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] BitonicEelis opened pull request #11643: Remove dead store in secp256k1_ecmult_gen. (master...deadstore) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11643
07:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #11643: Remove dead store in secp256k1_ecmult_gen. (master...deadstore) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11643
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07:34 < BlueMatt> cfields: re: #11562: I believe using high_resolution_clock is incorrect - seems like high_resolution_clock::is_steady is rarely true
07:34 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11562 | bench: use std::chrono rather than gettimeofday by theuni · Pull Request #11562 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:35 < BlueMatt> I mean or we can do something like this: https://gist.github.com/kballard/3549291#file-benchmark-hpp-L8
07:37 < BlueMatt> cfields: we should be preferring steady_clock over high_resolution, I think, and then we can static_assert something about the resolution being at least microsecond or so...
07:39 < BlueMatt> also, master dont build, yo
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07:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt opened pull request #11644: Fix qt build broken by 5a5e4e9 (master...2017-11-fix-build) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11644
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07:58 < wumpus> BlueMatt: I also commented about that on the original PR
07:59 < wumpus> apparently the steady clock is usually the same resolution as the high resolution clock
08:00 < wumpus> this just handles the rare case where the high resolution clock is higher resolution (but not steady) in which case a higher resolution is probably preferred
08:00 < BlueMatt> wumpus: indeed, but it seems nonsense to prefer high_resolution over steady *unless* their resolution is the same
08:00 < BlueMatt> really? I mean its not like any of our runs require *that* much precision
08:00 < wumpus> I don't think I agree on that, for benchmarks precision is always preferred
08:00 < BlueMatt> microsecond is more than enough, even millisecond is probably fine especially after the next pr
08:01 < wumpus> I mean the difference is that the steady clock isn't affected by time changes, but those should be rare anyhow right?
08:01 < BlueMatt> but precision is nonsense if you're running ntp - the chance that your clock is running fast/slow randomly is not 0 and the gain you get from microsecond to something smaller is ~0
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08:02 < wumpus> running benchmarks on a system where the time is jumping crazy around sounds like a stupid idea to me
08:02 < BlueMatt> most systems have ntpd, though....
08:02 < BlueMatt> I think its like built-in to systemd or some batshit insane shit now
08:02 < wumpus> ntp is supposed to increase time precision, not decrease it
08:03 < wumpus> e.g. it explicitly doesn't do any large sudden corrections
08:03 < BlueMatt> but it does corrections by making your clock run fast/slow when it detects your clock to be off (or your network path to have changed.....)
08:04 < wumpus> that's the point, yes
08:04 < MarcoFalke> I read that as a point for the steady_clock
08:05 < Victorsueca> Came here to say it, but seems like you already noticed master is failing a lot lately
08:05 < wumpus> Victorsueca: a lot?
08:05 < BlueMatt> Victorsueca: usually master travis failures are cause travis will cancel a job if you push something new on top of it, so github shows them as failed
08:05 < MarcoFalke> what do you mean? The tests?
08:05 < BlueMatt> though master is actually failing right now, but its the first I've seen that in months
08:05 < wumpus> these kind of merge conficts are incredibly rare
08:06 < Victorsueca> BlueMatt: ahh that explains it
08:06 < wumpus> currently testing BlueMatt's change
08:06 < sipa> far better to have it fail to compile/test than have bugs 
08:07 < BlueMatt> Victorsueca: I often restart them cause I'm super ocd, though I should probably stop doing that cause it stops testing other things......
08:07 < wumpus> absolutely
08:08 < MarcoFalke> I mean we have a backlog anyway and that motivates people to compile and run locally
08:08 < MarcoFalke> So I don't see huge issues with that
08:08 < BlueMatt> yea, we almost always have a backlog during business hours :/
08:08  * BlueMatt works on weekends, suckers :p
08:10 < BlueMatt> wumpus: eg https://github.com/coreos/bugs/issues/391 which talks about how, yet again, systemd be breaking shit, in this case cause its timesyncd (which will now be default, I guess, on most hosts) is not accurate enough for ceph
08:10 < wumpus> BlueMatt: yes thinking about it some more I agree with you
08:10 < BlueMatt> given steady_clock usually has very good precision and the point of benchmarks is usually to figure out if things changed from one commit to another, not to compare between hosts, I think we should prefer that
08:13 < wumpus> yes, indeed
08:14 < BlueMatt> k, willfix
08:14 < wumpus> it also simplifies the code if we always use the same clock
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08:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/99ec12666ba7...045a80923419
08:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9e9e31a Matt Corallo: Fix qt build broken by 5a5e4e9
08:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 045a809 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11644: Fix qt build broken by 5a5e4e9...
08:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11644: Fix qt build broken by 5a5e4e9 (master...2017-11-fix-build) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11644
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08:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt opened pull request #11646: Require a steady clock for bench with at least micro precision (master...2017-11-11562-cleanups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11646
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09:12 < BlueMatt> wumpus: hmmm, re: #11583 I kinda feel yucky adding a BCLog category that just means "ALWAYS log" - would you be ok with a #define function which does the LogPrint/LogPrintf call based on pnode->fInbound?
09:12 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11583 | Do not make it trivial for inbound peers to generate log entries by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #11583 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
09:13 < wumpus> BlueMatt: I kind of like the idea of having a always-log category
09:14 < wumpus> BlueMatt: it means LogPrintf could be defined in terms of it, and at some point only one log function would be needed anymore
09:14 < wumpus> myself I always get confused between Logprint and Logprintf also because they are named so similarly
09:14 < BlueMatt> true.....
09:14 < BlueMatt> man i hate having a one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other enum :(
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09:15 < wumpus> well there is already a ::ALL
09:15 < BlueMatt> yea, but at least thats just defined to ~0
09:15 < wumpus> maybe we could use that as "log always"?
09:16 < wumpus> it doesn't really matter what it's defined to, just how it's handled :)
09:16 < BlueMatt> hmmmm, I thought about that briefly but decided I prefer an ::ALWAYS cause then you're even more confused....-debug=0 means ~0 still logs?
09:16 < BlueMatt> even though ~0 & 1 doesnt?
09:16 < BlueMatt> errr, ~0 ^ 1
09:16 < wumpus> hrm yeah
09:17 < wumpus> can't we just move those messages always to ::NET :-)
09:17 < BlueMatt> alright, I'll take a dive down the ::ALWAYS rabbit hole and see where I end up
09:17 < wumpus> that would remove this entire issue
09:17 < BlueMatt> I mean its nice to know when your outbound peers succeed in connecting
09:17 < wumpus> I mean they *are* net messages
09:17 < BlueMatt> I could add a second log for that
09:17 < wumpus> yes     
09:17 < wumpus> maybe that's better
09:18 < BlueMatt> ok, fine, will table the ::ALWAYS discussion
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09:19 < wumpus> the root issue really is that we confound log class and log priority
09:19 < wumpus> but I don't think we need to make logging perfect before merging your PR :)
09:21 < wumpus> but I agree with you that BCLog::ALWAYS is ugly
09:22 < wumpus> would prefer to add BCLog::ERROR BCLog::WARNING BCLog::DEBUG
09:22 < wumpus> then the log system would show messages based on a threshold
09:23 < wumpus> and it's not decided at the site of logigng whether something should always show
09:23 < BlueMatt> I mean I dunno, I kinda like the idea of logging based on subsystem, especially with rpc to turn them on and off - it lets you debug just the subsystem that is acting up
09:23 < wumpus> the subsystem should certainly stay
09:23 < BlueMatt> we could add both
09:23  * BlueMatt ducks
09:23 < wumpus> common is to have a combination of both
09:24 < BlueMatt> that sounds overcomplex
09:24 < BlueMatt> but, eh...whatever
09:24 < wumpus> it's pretty much how it's done in all software
09:24 < BlueMatt> a discussion for when someone actually goes and writes the code to change it :p
09:24 < wumpus> so you can select by category or by priority
09:25 < wumpus> so this would be either a low priority or high priority net message based on incoming/outgoing
09:26 < wumpus> it also means that the log output can show the category, so you can grep for it later
09:30 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@92.154.68.134] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]     
09:31 < wumpus> (because all log messages will have a category, not just the debug priority ones)
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10:29 < cfields> BlueMatt / wumpus: after thinking on it a bit, i agree with the clock change.
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10:41 < wumpus> cfields: awesome
10:45 < Chris_Stewart_5> meeting in 15 right? 
10:45 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.100] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
10:46 < wumpus> yes     
10:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 5 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/045a80923419...5e3f5e4f25b6
10:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2904e30 John Newbery: [tests] Remove dead code from mininode.py...
10:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c0b1274 John Newbery: [tests] Remove support for bre-BIP31 ping messages...
10:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3858aab John Newbery: [tests] Remove support for p2p alert messages...
10:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #11638: [tests] Dead mininode code (master...dead_mininode_code) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11638
10:55 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-trzimhxoutdkrwys] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
10:56 -!- promag [~promag@bl22-247-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
10:57 < promag> hi     
10:57 < jonasschnelli> o/     
10:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5e3f5e4f25b6...1f4375f8e75f
10:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3788a84 Matt Corallo: Do not send (potentially) invalid headers in response to getheaders...
10:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 725b79a Russell Yanofsky: [test] Verify node doesn't send headers that haven't been fully validated
10:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1f4375f Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11580: Do not send (potentially) invalid headers in response to getheaders...
10:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11580: Do not send (potentially) invalid headers in response to getheaders (master...2017-10-getheaders-valid-only) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11580
11:01 < sipa> meetung?
11:01 < jonasschnelli> jup     
11:01 < achow101> meeting
11:02 < wumpus> #startmeeting
11:02 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov  9 19:02:18 2017 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:02 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
11:02 < MarcoFalke> proposed short topic "Signing key for gitian executables"
11:02 < meshcollider> Hi     
11:02 < achow101> hi     
11:02 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag
11:02 < Provoostenator> Hi     
11:02 < sdaftuar> oh hi
11:02 < cfields> hi     
11:02 < morcos> hi     
11:03 < wumpus> #topic 0.15.1
11:03 < instagibbs> hi     
11:03 < morcos> Release!
11:03 < sdaftuar> does it work?
11:03 < wumpus> anyone had any bug reports regarding the rc?
11:03 < BlueMatt> Release!
11:03 < instagibbs> I have not seen any...
11:03 < MarcoFalke> release notes missing?
11:03 -!- promag [~promag@bl22-247-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]     
11:03 < wumpus> seems that was a short rc cycle then 
11:03 < achow101> I haven't seen any, but I also don't know how many people are testing it out
11:03 < sipa> yes, i think we need a writeup on the P2P changes at least
11:03 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: no? I think we have them?
11:03 < meshcollider> MarcoFalke I wrote release notes and wumpus already merged
11:04 -!- promag [~promag@bl22-247-244.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
11:04 < MarcoFalke> great
11:04 < MarcoFalke> Tag and release?
11:04 < BlueMatt> there's no release notes on the p2p changes, I think
11:04 < BlueMatt> as sipa points out
11:04 < sdaftuar> yes there are some
11:04 < BlueMatt> though that may be fine
11:04 < morcos> yeah i think actually we might as well not release yet, there is no big rush now, so might as well see if any bugs pop up?
11:04 < cfields> i suspect many of the people who might've usually been testing rc1 got stuck dealing with drama instead :(
11:04 < wumpus> I don't think we should hold up a minor on release notes tbh, unless something really important is missing\
11:05 < luke-jr> morcos: I'm not sure we should drop our guard so easily
11:05 < achow101> morcos: there's still a possibility that some miner goes ahead and forks anyways
11:05 < BlueMatt> we can tag an rc2 with no changes to encourage testing :p
11:05 < wumpus> if it's ready we should just release and move on 
11:05 < achow101> like these guys: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-segwit2x/2017-November/000689.html
11:05 < BlueMatt> but, yea, I think we should release
11:05 < jonasschnelli> ack     
11:05 < meshcollider> Hmm did I miss something? I thought I wrote up
11:05 < BlueMatt> even the idiots running a few hundred btc1 nodes may cause disruption and 15.1 can help
11:05 < luke-jr> achow101: in fact, at least one mining pool has announced they intend to
11:06 < meshcollider> ACK on release though, can just do 0.15.1.1 if it's got a bug ;)
11:06 < sdaftuar> lol     
11:06 < wumpus> yes would be a waste if we get disruption anyway
11:06 < BlueMatt> meshcollider: god damn it
11:06 < wumpus> because some people fork anyway
11:06 < sipa> meshcollider: oh, i missed those notes!
11:06 < Provoostenator> This being Bitcoin, _someone_ is going to fork...
11:06  * BlueMatt proposes from here on out all version numbers must be majorversion.some.series.of.0s.and.1s :p
11:06 < wumpus> and we have a release ready but decide to delay it because 'no rush'
11:06 < morcos> ok ok..  i have no problem releasing
11:06 < luke-jr> meshcollider: if we make 0.15.2 another bugfix-only, we can do segwit wallet in 0.15.pi
11:06 < sdaftuar> release!
11:06 < kanzure> hi.     
11:06 < wumpus> ok!     
11:07 < BlueMatt> Relese!
11:07 < BlueMatt> e     
11:07 < wumpus> #action release 0.15.1
11:07 < achow101> ack release
11:07 < wumpus> #topic HIgh priority for review
11:07 < wumpus> I think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 is stale now
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11:08 < achow101> so back to doing segwit wallet stuff?
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11:08 < wumpus> the blockers were those that were already there before we started working on 0.15.1, so probably needs a update
11:08 < wumpus> achow101: yes
11:08 < wumpus> we should at least have segwit wallet in 0.16.0 
11:08 -!- Deacydal [~Deacyde@unaffiliated/deacyde] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
11:08 < sipa> yes     
11:08 < jonasschnelli> Yes. SW wallet support should be in projects/8
11:08 < meshcollider> C.f. #11403
11:08 < morcos> sipa: did you ever write up that document?
11:08 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11403 | SegWit wallet support by sipa · Pull Request #11403 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:08 < BlueMatt> speaking of segwit wallet......sipa where are we?
11:09 < sipa> no, sorry, distracted
11:09 < sipa> been thinking a lot about it though...
11:09 < morcos> i don't think i had any concerns about the last plan as i understood it.. but would be nice to sort of have it written out
11:09 < wumpus> added
11:09 < sipa> agree, i'll try to write things up today
11:09 < morcos> have we decided that barring bugs, the next release will be 0.16 with segwit wallet?
11:09 < achow101> is 11403 all that's left for segwit wallet? (besides the fact that it is the segwit wallet PR)
11:10 < morcos> and then the new and improved segwit wallet will be left for 0.1&?
11:10 < morcos> 0.17
11:10 < sipa> achow101: there are some TODOs left
11:10 < wumpus> morcos: I think that's sensible
11:10 < sipa> morcos: i'm going to stop thinking in terms of specific releases
11:10 < jonasschnelli> morcos: makes sense
11:10  * BlueMatt was concerned about the approach but there's lots of tradeoffs, so really wanted to see the aforementioned doc
11:10 < wumpus> just do an early 0.16 release if it's finished early
11:10 < sipa> but short term, 11403 + its todos
11:10 < wumpus> I'm kind of tired of holding off changes because backports to 0.15 need to be easier
11:10 < morcos> wumpus: yes thats what i mean.. ok good. 
11:10 < sipa> long term, rework ismine etc
11:11 < sipa> and release whatever is ready
11:11 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: Are we still doing a 0.15 with segwit wallet?
11:11 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: no, I don't think so (or at least that's what we discussed last meeting)
11:11 < cfields> ack 0.16 whenever segwit wallet is ready
11:11 < promag> sorry, multi wallet also for 0.16?
11:12 < sipa> multiwallet is in 0.15, no?
11:12 < meshcollider> Dynamic multiwallet?
11:12 < jonasschnelli> promag: if it's ready... you mean dynamic loading/unloading?
11:12 < promag> yes     
11:12 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: same plan, different versioning
11:12 < wumpus> if it's ready in time, sure
11:12 < jonasschnelli> promag: Should be possible
11:12 < wumpus> not going to hold it up on that though, if the explicit goal is segwit wallet
11:12 < promag> not project 8 thou?
11:12 < jonasschnelli> Indeed
11:12 < jonasschnelli> promag: it is there
11:13 < MarcoFalke> #action put segwit wallet in the next major release
11:13 < wumpus> yes, anything else for high priority for review?
11:13 < BlueMatt> #10286 :(
11:13 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10286 | Call wallet notify callbacks in scheduler thread (without cs_main) by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #10286 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:13 < jonasschnelli> I'd like to see BIP159 in 0.16... but it's already in the HP list
11:14 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: needs rebase and I left you comments :p
11:14 < wumpus> 10286 is already on there
11:14 < meshcollider> Any label stuff to replace accounts in there?
11:14 < sipa> bip159 would be nice, indeed
11:14 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: yes. Saw that.. will work on it asap
11:14  * jonasschnelli has 14.4k connection this week
11:15 < promag> btw, I think it would be cool to have some diagram of the current thread model and what should be the ideal model
11:15 < wumpus> thread model?
11:15 < promag> I think BlueMatt has some things in mind
11:15 < jonasschnelli> I think promag means the general concurrency concept, right?
11:16 < promag> sure
11:16 < BlueMatt> promag: my model is CValidationInterface
11:16 < BlueMatt> :p     
11:16 < promag> well BlueMatt keeps saying he wants to refactor in some way, but would be cool to actually "see" the big picture
11:16 < jonasschnelli> We move away from topics... MarcoFalke had a proposed topic
11:16 < BlueMatt> promag: CValidationInterface :p
11:16 < meshcollider> Signing keys for binaries?
11:16 < morcos> promag: +1
11:17 < jonasschnelli> [09:02:17]  <MarcoFalke>	proposed short topic "Signing key for gitian executables"
11:17 < wumpus> #topic Signing key for gitian executables (MarcoFalke)
11:17 < MarcoFalke> Background is that the current key expires Q1 2018, so we should come up with something for the 0.16 release. Someone had the idea to ask MIT to apply for a key, as individuals can not apply AFAICT.
11:17 < jonasschnelli> can you elaborate MarcoFalke?
11:18 < jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: you mean the Apple/WINDOWS code signing keys?
11:18 < BlueMatt> MarcoFalke: there was some discussion of doing a split rsa key here.... gmaxwell around?
11:18 < MarcoFalke> jonasschnelli: jup
11:18 < luke-jr> would be good to have a key that is explicitly used for not only Core releases (eg, Knots too)
11:18 < jonasschnelli> Apple is still the Bitcoin Foundatiomn, right?
11:18 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I have code for mpc generation of rsa keys and signing.
11:18 < MarcoFalke> BlueMatt: That would require some more time?
11:18 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: no, only Core
11:18 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: why?
11:18 < cfields> yes, both are btcf atm
11:18 < BlueMatt> luke-jr: no
11:18 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: (by I have, I mean it's on github, and I've used it... works fine)
11:19 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: its about trust... I don't know if I would sign something I havev't reviewd
11:19 < cfields> gmaxwell: deals well with csr? I have no idea if that complicates things.
11:19 < achow101> the windows cert expires in 2019
11:19 < jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: individuals can apply for keys (Apple and Windows)
11:20 < jonasschnelli> But not sure if we should do individuals...
11:20 < instagibbs> jonasschnelli, mmm not sure if gitian is about you "trusting" the binary, so much as it matches others'? 
11:20 < gmaxwell> cfields: it deals with RSA numbers, someone would need to do the hacking to stuff the rsa number it generates into a CSR and whatnot.
11:20 < cfields> gmaxwell: ok
11:20 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I see it as dealing with backward OS policies that make it hard for users to run stuff.
11:20 < morcos> Does anyone think its best to just get BTCF to renew for now?
11:21 < gmaxwell> I think it's _really_ unfortunate to have any name except the project name on the binaries, causes a drama and stupidity.  There are still people that think the bitcoin foundation controls bitcoin just because of that existing cert. :(
11:21 < wumpus> luke-jr: it basically is
11:21 < BlueMatt> todo: cfields creates an rsa # -> csr program :p
11:21 < gmaxwell> morcos: thats the obvious thing to do.
11:21 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: yes. But applying for you own key is maybe 300USD/year,.... so possible IMO
11:21 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so can I just legally change my name to Bitcoin Core, get a cert, and then change it back?
11:21 < BlueMatt> :p     
11:21 < jonasschnelli> morcos: renaming with the APPLE Developer Portal is almost impossible
11:21 < achow101> BlueMatt: lol
11:21 < meshcollider> lol     
11:21 < morcos> jonasschnelli: huh?
11:21 < jonasschnelli> changing name requires legal documents, etc.
11:22 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well the other option is that we just register a bitcoin core org someplace and have it get the key. But I wouldn't want to suggest that for a key that is expiring soon.
11:22 < jonasschnelli> It's all by approval basis through apple
11:22 < gmaxwell> it's not terribly hard, just requires a bit of money.
11:22 < jonasschnelli> you need a D.U.N.S number as well
11:22 < BlueMatt> I mean it doesnt take long to create an LLC that holds $0
11:22 < kanzure> would chaincode do it?
11:22 < jonasschnelli> But plase... don't set up an orga called "Bitcoin Core"
11:22 < meshcollider> Then bitcoin core really would be a company and you'd set off all the conspiracy theorists
11:22 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: agree
11:22 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin Core Code Signing Key inc.
11:22 < morcos> I'm happy to have an official Bitcoin Core org established if we want that, but it does seem like there are downsides to that
11:23 < wumpus> gmaxwell: yeah
11:23 < jonasschnelli> Id rather use an individual then ChainCodeLabs for it's own protection
11:23 < morcos> unless we specifically limited its purpose very narrowly
11:23 < cfields> ugh     
11:23 < kanzure> yes if it's a "bitoin core org" then it should be named "bitcoin core code signing key holding only and nothing else, llc."
11:23 < wumpus> CoreSign
11:23 < luke-jr> wumpus: jonasschnelli: then I see no reason not to use a common key for both Core and Knots..
11:23 < jonasschnelli> I could provide my own personal APPL key...
11:23  * BlueMatt votes for someone to just create Bitcoin Core Code Signing, LLC
11:23 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin Release signing key incorporated.
11:23 < achow101> BTW the apple key expires Jan 11 2018, Windows March 5 2019, so we would need to do this soon
11:23 < morcos> luke-jr: stop..  please bring up knots later .  it has nothing to do with the Core meeting
11:23 < jonasschnelli> (OSX only)
11:24 < jonasschnelli> heh     
11:24 < gmaxwell> achow101: or just renew the apple one then, and continue on with doing something sensible.
11:24 < cfields> ok, in parallel to whatever else, I'll work on trying to get our current apple cert renewed
11:24 < wumpus> makes sense
11:24 < morcos> cfields: i think it makes most sense to do that.
11:25 < wumpus> any name would give conspiracy theories anyway, I don't really think it's so bad to have TBF as signing organization
11:25 < Provoostenator> Or Gitan Code Signing LLC, if other projects want their stuff signed too?
11:25 < gmaxwell> If someone wants to work on stuffing rsa numbers into CSRs, I can show them out to use the RSA MPC code (have to remember it myself first, but it's not hard)
11:25 < cfields> but i think we need a plan b. no clue if the resources/accounts/etc. are still live and available
11:25 < luke-jr> Provoostenator: good idea
11:25 < jonasschnelli> I kinda like the idea of a "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Assoc."
11:25 < cfields> gmaxwell: yes, i'd very very much like to do that
11:25 < cfields> so i'll volunteer for that
11:25 < achow101> do we really need code signed binaries though?
11:25 < cfields> tired of 10hr builds and signing on my damn laptop
11:26 < gmaxwell> wumpus: well at least TBF isn't any _new_ conspiracy theories... though it does kinda suck. :)
11:26 < cfields> achow101: yea. necessary evil, im afraid
11:26 < luke-jr> achow101: some variants of Mac and Windows won't let users run unsigned stuff or something like that
11:26 < wumpus> yes, otherwise all virus scanners will trigger on it and such
11:26 < achow101> luke-jr: well that's annoying
11:26 < Provoostenator> As an aside: has any one ever tried submitting to the Mac App Store?
11:27 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
11:27 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: no.. we won't
11:27 < jonasschnelli> This means the binaries are under APPLs control 
11:27 < jonasschnelli> Would someone disagree on founding a "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association" based in Switzerland?...
11:27 < jonasschnelli> (we could just try and also follow the path of renewing the current cert)
11:27 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: no, would be great
11:27 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: "Gitian Code Signing" would be better as Provoostenator suggested
11:28 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: sounds fine to me, whatever is the path of least resistance.
11:28 < wumpus> luke-jr: I think that makes the scope too wide
11:28 < gmaxwell> I'd rather not introduce a new word 'gitian' to users.
11:28 < morcos> Let's please leave whatever we do focused on Bitcoin Core
11:28 < BlueMatt> it should probably have "Bitcoin Core" in the name
11:28 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: yes, please register, thanks!
11:28 < MarcoFalke> #action Register "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association"
11:28 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: then you'll whine that it can't be shared
11:28 < wumpus> luke-jr: I don't personally have a problem with signing knots executables, but making it soo general means we'll have a bureaucracy about what to sign blabla, and btw devrandom owns the name gitian :)
11:28 < sipa> and then we'd apply for code signing keys under that association's name, using the MPC RSA scheme?
11:28 < meshcollider> jonasschnelli: sounds good to me
11:29 < jonasschnelli> Okay... I'll let that happen and register with apple
11:29 < sipa> (or at least eventually)
11:29 < Provoostenator> Decentralized Code Signers LLC?
11:29 < wumpus> sipa: yes, at least eventually
11:29 < BlueMatt> luke-jr: I object to it being shared, it is not *that* hard for you to get your own cert for your own project.....
11:29 < gmaxwell> sipa: yes, thats the idea. 
11:29 < jonasschnelli> sipa: not sure it that is possible with apples key enrolling process
11:29 < sipa> jonasschnelli: i don't see why not
11:29 < BlueMatt> sipa: yes
11:29 < cfields> wumpus: exactly. The question to ask is: would we want btc1 signed with the same key?
11:29 < jonasschnelli> I'll focus on the legal association stuff maybe someone can try to look into the MPC RSA sheme with apple OSX signing keys
11:29 < sipa> jonasschnelli: assuming all the plumbing work is done
11:29 < wumpus> cfields: right, no we don't :)
11:29 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's a waste of money to a bad corp and a waste of time, at the very least
11:29 < achow101> does anyone have a link to the rsa mpc thing?
11:29 < gmaxwell> I wouldn't want any of us us wasting time helping with an adversarial project.
11:29 < morcos> Guys, if you are signing code, you are responsible for that code.  If we are signing it in the name of Bitcoin Core we are all taking responsibility.  Please let's limit this discussion to the code we all work on together
11:30 < Provoostenator> Makes sense
11:30 < sipa> well, in the MPC setting, the group of signers would be fixed
11:30 < morcos> someone can always separately create a more general entity to sign other projects, but thats not related to Core
11:30 < sipa> the project should be signing the things that group of signers is jointly interested in signing
11:30 < wumpus> yeah it's typical scope creep
11:30 < gmaxwell> achow101: I'll give you the link after the meeting.
11:30 < kanzure> or bike shedding on name
11:30 < wumpus> let's sign the entire world :p
11:30 < cfields> gmaxwell: right. I was making the point that it would be impossible to draw the line unless core-specific.
11:30 < achow101> gmaxwell: k, thanks
11:31 < MarcoFalke> Any other topics?
11:31 < BlueMatt> promag: CValidationInterface is where you learn things from consensus code (ie from CChainState after 10279 or validation.cpp otherwise) - its also where you learn about mempool things but I have a branch which comes after 10286 that splits the interface up between the two to differentiate a little bit....wrt threading, CValidationInterface listeners all move into the scheduler, which means you dont have any deadlocking issues since 
11:31 < BlueMatt> they're all just called async, this is mostly complete in 10286, but cleaning up the remaining few isnt too hard...thats pretty much it, there's not much to it...net/net_processing is a different issue, and is mostly around moving things from CNode to CNodeState and disconnecting those two things being so closely joined, but the threading issues there are less of the primary concern (except for cs_main being too heavily shared between 
11:31 < BlueMatt> net_processing for mapNodeState and everything else)
11:31 < gmaxwell> it is unfortunate that e.g. knots has an uphill time there, it's a barrier to entry that shouldn't exist. But it's also not one we created.
11:31 < luke-jr> cfields: except Knots and Core have the same developers
11:31 < wumpus> gmaxwell: I agree
11:31 < cfields> luke-jr: as does btc1...
11:31 < sipa> luke-jr: they don't have the same maintainers
11:31 < luke-jr> cfields: hardly
11:32 < sipa> i don't think everyone who is interested in signing off on core releases is interested in doing the same work for knots - and perhaps the other way around
11:32 < cfields> luke-jr: i hope it's clear that I'm not trying to lump you in with an adversarial fork. Just making the point that the distinction in terms of signing is hard to draw.
11:32 < luke-jr> "We Just Codesign Stuff We Want, LLC" XD
11:33 < cfields> luke-jr: that's my end goal, actually
11:33 < jonasschnelli> Indeed
11:33 < jonasschnelli> It's one entity luke-jr 
11:33 < wumpus> well adversarial versus consensus-compatible is easy to draw
11:33 < gmaxwell> there is another issue, I'm pretty sure that apple will not grant a key to "I sign random shit LLC"
11:33 < jonasschnelli> You can found a "Knots Code Signing Assoc"
11:33 < promag> thanks BlueMatt, I'll read that in a bit
11:33 < cfields> to create a body like Let's Encrypt, which attests to the fact that code -> binary.
11:34 < wumpus> cfields: that would be awesome
11:34 < luke-jr> cfields: well, how to stop malware from using it?
11:34 < achow101> cfields: well that's a whole separate thing which we can join once it exists :)
11:34 < wumpus> but it's outside the scope of the bitcoin core project
11:34 < wumpus> any other topics?
11:34 < cfields> luke-jr: deterministic malware would have to be welcome, unfortunately
11:34 < luke-jr> that'd just get the key revoked
11:34 < gmaxwell> not like this stuff actually stops malware, snake oil security. alas.
11:35 < gmaxwell> in any case, a discussion for another time.
11:36 < wumpus> ok, no other topics
11:36 < wumpus> #endmeeting
11:36 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov  9 19:36:19 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
11:36 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-09-19.02.html
11:36 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-09-19.02.txt
11:36 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-09-19.02.log.html
11:37 < achow101> well that was short
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11:38 < gmaxwell> achow101: the links are here https://github.com/kljensen/viff/blob/master/doc/applications.txt#L59
11:38 < wumpus> achow101: very efficient, can spent the rest of the time on reviewing high-priority PRs if you want :)
11:39 < promag> guys, what do you think about implicit sharing (or copy on write) for some structures, like cchain?
11:39 < meshcollider> jonasschnelli: Is it true that an LLC in Switzerland needs at least CHF 20,000 capital?
11:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #11647: 0.15: Backports (0.15...Mf1711-0152backports) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11647
11:39 < wumpus> meshcollider: that's the case here in the netherlands
11:40 < gmaxwell> achow101: the key gen is really slow, but who cares... signing is fast.
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11:40 < sipa> meshcollider: 3 BTC doesn't *sound* like much at all :p
11:40 < BlueMatt> if thats the case might as well just create a US LLC
11:40 < BlueMatt> cost is trivial
11:40 < gmaxwell> achow101: IIRC that implementation is setup for three parties, but it would be relatively straight forward to adjust it for more.
11:40 < jonasschnelli> meshcollider: 10k for a GmbH
11:40 < jonasschnelli> jonasschnelli: but we do an association.. which is almost free (maybe 1k)
11:40 < sipa> promag: cchain is pretty big
11:41 < meshcollider> Heh yeah sounds like quite a lot for a code signing only company
11:41 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: i believe us is like 50$
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11:41 < promag> sipa: you don't have to copy everything
11:41 < BlueMatt> (but I think in most states yearly to file tax returns)
11:42 < sipa> promag: not without introducing massive granularity
11:42 < achow101> gmaxwell: thanks. I'm going to try taking a look at it 
11:42 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: that's why people trust swiss companies more then US. :)
11:42 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: would you prefer I do something in .us?
11:42 < sipa> promag: if there is ever a point where concurrency is hurt by needing a consistent CChain, i think the solution is to stop using CChain for that purpose (CChain is just an optimized-for-seeking copy of CBlockIndex)
11:43 < jonasschnelli> For the simplest form of a registered non-single-person company, the GmbH, you need to deposit 10k and have liability (personal) for 20k
11:43 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: no.. please not US
11:43 < BlueMatt> I mean its not like the company will even hold the cert
11:43 < meshcollider> jonasschnelli is there any difference between an association and an LLC in terms of getting the certs
11:43 < BlueMatt> only exist as a legal entity to exist
11:43 < jonasschnelli> Or the association member may have troubles getting a US visa. :()
11:43 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: I presume there will be no "members"
11:44 < meshcollider> Or wumpus will be so he gets the cert?
11:44 < gmaxwell> the only concern about the entity is that it could get more certs but I don't think we care, since the fact that apple et. al. can issue as many as they want regardless.
11:44 < gmaxwell> meshcollider: we're hopefully going to use multiparty computation so no one person has the cert.'
11:44 < morcos> i think it makes sense for it to be jonas or someone not related to the Blockstream/Chaincode conspiracy who does this
11:44 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that almost anyone would claim to be a representative of the company and apple would buy it
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11:45 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: an official assiciation needs to have member
11:45 < jonasschnelli> (but only in the background)
11:45 < jonasschnelli> LLC is US imo
11:45  * luke-jr wonders if a non-developer should do this
11:45 < cfields> my original suggestion was the DCI, but that got drowned out in the discussion
11:45 < gmaxwell> lol please, no more non-developers.
11:45 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: I mean ok, if you hate the idea of a us LLC, fine, I just figure its not worth wasting 1k on it, but....ok
11:45 < cfields> (also, i realize that everyone is just suggesting their own org :p )
11:45 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea...that
11:46 < wumpus> cfields: DCI would be fine with me too
11:46 < sdaftuar> cfields: i am not suggesting my own org! :)
11:46 < luke-jr> cfields: everyone else is suggesting not-our-org it sounds like
11:46 < wumpus> cfields: this is just to have alternatives 
11:46  * BlueMatt doesnt care, I was trying to save jonasschnelli 1000$, but the purpose is to exist, not do *do* anything
11:46 < jonasschnelli> I'm not really familiar with US legal company/association constructs.... 
11:47 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: all that matters is its cheaper :p
11:47 < gmaxwell> I would rather not use DCI simply because we really have suffered from people using that stupid message as proof BCF controls bitcoin. I'd rather the name be more benign. (the "foo code signing" sort).
11:47 < promag> sipa: consider a long rpc call, it locks cs_main and replies a big json - how can it avoid the cs_main lock?
11:47 < jonasschnelli> DCI would be fine for me as well, though I prefer "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Assocation" over "DCI" (which is a private owned company) in the signing details
11:47 < wumpus> yes on the longer term having our own signing org would certainly be preferable, I agree
11:47 < gmaxwell> "Orginization which does not control Bitcoin. LLC"
11:48 < gmaxwell> yea, for a stopgap, whatever works. hopefully we can just.
11:48 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: I guess the 1000$ is for the lawyers setup,... I guess I would need the same for the LLC process (or someone needs to fill out the application form which then leads to lost 1000$ in development ressources)
11:48 < cfields> well, this may shortcut the discussion a bit...
11:48 < BlueMatt> ok, are there any remaining questions aside from "does jonasschnelli want to register it as a swiss org, or do we want someone in .us to spend the 35$ to make it happen here"
11:48 < wumpus> DCI sounds sufficiently neutral to me though
11:48 < cfields> from a quick glance, looks pretty possible that I can renew with the current cert
11:49 < gmaxwell> lol     
11:49 < achow101> who would be the named members/officers/whatever of said organization/association/llc
11:49 < wumpus> cfields: nice!
11:49 < sipa> promag: accessing CBlockIndex entries does not require a lock to access most fields (as they are immutable)
11:49 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: the registration process for an org in the us can be pretty easily diy-d, especially if you're never going to *use* the org
11:49 < luke-jr> why does it need to be Core-specific? just a redundant waste of money and time to then get another one for Knots, when it could just as easily be a shared effort. sigh.
11:49 < BlueMatt> achow101: who cares?
11:49 < gmaxwell> achow101: we should create a UK org, you can name anyone you want as the officers.
11:49 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: let me first check the real costs here in CH
11:49 < jonasschnelli> I know it's basically free... but someone needs to do the paperwork... 
11:49 < jonasschnelli> Which is the significant costs IMO
11:49 < gmaxwell> achow101: and the registrations are visible online. :P
11:49 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: even without their consent? XD
11:49 < jonasschnelli> Which *are
11:49 < meshcollider> BlueMatt does a US LLC need a bank account and everything?
11:49 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: yes.
11:49 < BlueMatt> meshcollider: no
11:49 < gmaxwell> meshcollider: no.
11:49 < BlueMatt> why would it?
11:49 < achow101> BlueMatt: people who want to look at the paperwork and then go "X controls bitcoin blarg" conspiracy
11:49 < meshcollider> Idk, some countries do dont they
11:50 < BlueMatt> all you have to do is file paperwork to create it, then file a tax return every year....some nominal cost to doing so, but IIRC 35$ for delaware
11:50 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: Satoshi Nakamoto, John Doe, Jane Doe, …
11:50 < gmaxwell> achow101: so e.g. we can list satoshi nakamoto, bill gates, donald trump...
11:50 < achow101> gmaxwell: lol
11:50 < BlueMatt> achow101: hence why its called "Code Signing, LLC" :p
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11:50 < achow101> meshcollider: it varies in the us by state. IIRC it costs almost nothing to register an LLC. pay the fee and submit paperwork and thats just about it
11:51 < BlueMatt> yea, that ^
11:51 < meshcollider> Ok sweet as
11:51 < gmaxwell> it does take a bit of time.
11:51 < jonasschnelli> I guess an US LLC is always tied to an individual, a person who found/owns the LLC?
11:51 < achow101> jonasschnelli: yes
11:51 < meshcollider> According to cagi.ch, "The creation of an association does not entail any administrative cost."
11:52 < achow101> that person also has to file taxes for the llc every year. but for something that does nothing and makes no money, that shouldn't be a problem
11:52 < sipa> promag: so if you want consistent but just read-only access to CChain, you could ibstead just briefly lock main, get a copy of chainActive.Tip() pointer, unlock, and then use the resulting CBlockIndex without any locks
11:52 < jonasschnelli> Where an association (in Switzerland at least) has no owner,... it just has members (which have different / exchangable roles)
11:52 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: does Apple definitely recognise it?
11:52 < meshcollider> Association in Switzerland sounds cleaner than LLC in us imo
11:53 < jonasschnelli> meshcollider: "costs" are a wide term... fill out paperwork/forms for 2-3 can have costs...
11:53 < sipa> promag: CBlockIndex has efficient Ancestor function yo query at any height... not quite as efficient as looking up in CChain, but probably sufficient for almost anything
11:53 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: just checking... but I know other swiss Assocaitions having an App in the App store... so it should work
11:53 < promag> right, only lacks Next
11:53 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: I dont think we care about ownership here - it literally will not even hold the keys
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11:54 < meshcollider> Jonasschnelli it also says "A Committee (comprising at least a president, a secretary, and a treasurer)." Not just members, irrelevant point though
11:54 < achow101> I guess the cost here is "how much money does someone need to pay for this thing to exist"
11:55 < jonasschnelli> A committee is required,.. yes. But it's flexible...
11:55 < jonasschnelli> achow101: + how much work does he need to spend
11:55 < meshcollider> Yep 
11:56 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: The ownership can have some sideeffects... I personally don't want to be in a register with my Name tied to a company that have "Bitcoin" in it's name. For travel purposes...
11:56 < wumpus> wasn't it that you can put other companies as officers? :)
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11:56 < wumpus> and create a recursive organization
11:56 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: I guess not for an association
11:56 < jonasschnelli> (for other companies that would work)
11:57 < jonasschnelli> although I may be wrong
11:57 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: heh, I'm not too worried, if they google any of us they'll find bitcoin faster than if they look at what companies we are connected to :p
11:57 < achow101> jonasschnelli: in the US, you could register in like Delaware where the business registrations are not public and can only be revealed by subpoena (or the like)
11:58 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes maybe that's only true in Panama :p
11:58 < wumpus> BlueMatt: I'm not really worried either, they know we're connected to the software project anyhow
11:59 < jonasschnelli> Yes... probably... though I'm always suprised how entering the country depends on the officers (and the little surface info he has) you have in front of you
12:00 < meshcollider> "LLCs in Delaware don’t file annual reports"
12:00 < wumpus> meshcollider: that's another popular location for shell companies right?
12:01 < jonasschnelli> However, next week i should have more bandwidth then 14.4kbds so I'll can check the details... and report in next weeks meeting
12:01 < meshcollider> I'd expect so, achow101 suggested it
12:01 < sipa> promag: but next is easy to implement as tip->Ancestor(prev->nHeight + 1) :)
12:01 < achow101> wumpus: a lot of big US companies are registered in delaware, e.g. Google
12:01 < luke-jr> TIL achow101 is well-known for suggesting shell company locations
12:02 < wumpus> luke-jr: hah
12:02 < achow101> there's also a few other states too
12:02 < sipa> unfortunately, someone would just need to know the information was suggested by achow101, to guess
12:03 < meshcollider> Sounds like delaware is good for avoiding lots of tax too, not that that matters here ;)
12:03 < achow101> luke-jr: well right now I'm taking a course about fraud and scams, and we came to the topic of shell companies and the panama papers recently :p
12:03 < luke-jr> i c     
12:04 < meshcollider> Oh, "Delaware LLCs do not file annual reports; instead, LLCs in Delaware file annual taxes. The annual tax is a flat $300."
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12:06 < promag> cya later
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12:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1f4375f8e75f...e6e3fc39518b
12:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3155fd2 Jonas Schnelli: CKeystore: move relevant implementation out of the header
12:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 208fda6 Jonas Schnelli: CCrypter: move relevant implementation out of the header
12:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dd9bb25 Jonas Schnelli: Fix code style in keystore.cpp/crypter.cpp
12:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11272: CKeystore/CCrypter: move relevant implementation out of the header (master...2017/09/wallet_refact) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11272
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12:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e6e3fc39518b...23e9074e0a36
12:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ab8e8b9 practicalswift: Remove unused variables in shell scripts.
12:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 23e9074 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #10771: Remove unused variables in shell scripts...
12:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #10771: Remove unused variables in shell scripts (master...unused-shell-variables) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10771
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12:25 < wumpus>  * [new tag]         v0.15.1 -> v0.15.1
12:26 < BlueMatt> !     
12:27 < wumpus> congrats everyone on the 0.15.1 release :)
12:34 < achow101> yay!
12:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 14 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/23e9074e0a36...5e9be169e430
12:34 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 860e912 practicalswift: Use unique_ptr for pwalletMain (CWallet)
12:34 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5a6f768 practicalswift: Use unique_ptr for httpRPCTimerInterface (HTTPRPCTimerInterface)
12:34 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa6d122 practicalswift: Use unique_ptr:s for {fee,short,long}Stats (TxConfirmStats)
12:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11043: Use std::unique_ptr (C++11) where possible (master...unique-pointers) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11043
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12:40 -!- aj_ is now known as aj     
12:45 < meshcollider> I'll write a release page for bitcoincore.org later if no one else does
12:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #11648: [tests] Add primitives.py (master...add_primitives_py) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11648
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12:53 < RealM9> Hello, which paper wallet generator can be trusted?
12:53 < RealM9> (Asking it here, because i trust core devs)
12:54 < RealM9> Is bit address safe?
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12:57 < aj> jonasschnelli: is there really a question about #8550 being qt only or having a non-qt stats collector? having non-qt access to info always seems better, at a minimum for tests and the like...
12:57 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8550 | [Qt] Add interactive mempool graph by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #8550 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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13:05 < wumpus> aj jonasschnelli I tend to agree, though getting things merged w/ the GUI tends to be easier than JSON API changes
13:05 < wumpus> in any case the end goal is to have both
13:05 < aj> wumpus: (loving watching all the commits going through today)
13:06 < wumpus> I really want the GUI interactive mempool graph in, because it is appealing to people
13:07 < wumpus> aj: yes, much progress today
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13:09 < cfields> meshcollider: that reminds me, anyone else getting a cert issue for bitcoincore.org ?
13:12 < cfields> wumpus: and, looks like i was wrong about an easy cert renewal. going deeper now.
13:13 < aj> cfields: bitcoincore.org seems fine here (firefox sees a let's encrypt cert)
13:14 < wumpus> cfields: uh oh
13:14 < wumpus> aj: he means the code signing cert, web certs are much easier luckily
13:14 < cfields> aj: ah right, thanks for confirming
13:15 < cfields> wumpus: nah, i meant the site. forgot i had a dns hack in place
13:15 < cfields> damn you BlueMatt!
13:15 < wumpus> oh     
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13:25 < BlueMatt> cfields: lol, uhhhh, I have no idea what server you were accessing that had an old cert
13:25 < BlueMatt> thats...strange
13:25 < cfields> BlueMatt: it was pointed at bitcoin.org for some experiment
13:25 < BlueMatt> lolk
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13:26 < cfields> no worries, all good now
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13:41 < luke-jr> ‎[21:06:22] ‎<‎wumpus‎>‎ I really want the GUI interactive mempool graph in, because it is appealing to people <-- it conflicts with its dependency nowadays :x
13:41 < luke-jr> although I have it in Knots with an older version of the dep
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13:46 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: what dependency
13:46 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: the stats collection stuff
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13:49 < aj> luke-jr: i did a rebase of the qt bit in a PR against jonas's repo fwiw, https://github.com/btc1/bitcoin/issues/140
13:50 < aj> luke-jr: (rebased on top of jonas's repo for the json bit)
13:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #11649: Revert "Remove unused variable in shell script" (master...Mf1711-revertRemove) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11649
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14:03 < luke-jr> aj: did you link the wrong thing?
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14:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5e9be169e430...c838283ecdfb
14:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa0025d MarcoFalke: Revert "Remove unused variable in shell script"...
14:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c838283 MarcoFalke: Merge #11649: Revert "Remove unused variable in shell script"...
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14:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #11649: Revert "Remove unused variable in shell script" (master...Mf1711-revertRemove) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11649
14:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c838283ecdfb...6e4e98ee8ce2
14:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e1d0cc2 Pieter Wuille: Improve git-subtree-check.sh...
14:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 487aff4 Pieter Wuille: Check subtree consistency in Travis
14:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6e4e98e MarcoFalke: Merge #11394: Perform a weaker subtree check in Travis...
14:09 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: huh, I'm 100% sure I checked all the variables
14:10 < wumpus> no match for $old in that script
14:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #11394: Perform a weaker subtree check in Travis (master...201709_travis_subtree) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11394
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14:10 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: Not your fault :)
14:10 < MarcoFalke> It was only used in one of the sipa/bitcoin.git branches
14:11 < MarcoFalke> I guess you didn't check them
14:11 < sipa> hmm, did i miss something?
14:11 < wumpus> no, I checked our own repository only
14:11 < MarcoFalke> sipa: no
14:11 < MarcoFalke> all should be fine now
14:13 < wumpus> ok     
14:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #11582: wallet: Restore -usehd=0 option (master...usehd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11582
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14:22 < aj> luke-jr: yes, yes i did. https://github.com/jonasschnelli/bitcoin/pull/9
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17:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] emprisupriatna opened pull request #11650: BIP148 user activated activation of segwit (master...bip-segwit-flagday) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11650
17:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #11650: BIP148 user activated activation of segwit (master...bip-segwit-flagday) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11650
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17:46 < cfields> gitian builders: v0.15.1 detached sigs are pushed
17:47 < meshcollider> cfields: sweet. I'll have to wait til I get home though
17:47 < cfields> meshcollider: no rush :)
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17:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MeshCollider opened pull request #11651: refactor: Make all #includes relative to project root (rebased) (master...201711_absolute_includes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11651
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18:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #11053: refactor: Make all #includes relative to project root (master...2017_08_includes_absolute) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11053
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20:08 < LumberCartel> exit70:  This is probably where you want to start looking into the source code for Bitcoin:  https://www.github.com/bitcoin/
20:10 < LumberCartel> exit70:  There's a bot here named bitcoin-git that announces pull requests and the status updates.  So lurking here can be educational too.  (Welcome, by the way.)
20:11 < exit70> thanks!
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21:58 < meshcollider> achow101: yay is this the work of your new recruit? https://bitcoincore.org/en/meetings/2017/10/26/
21:59 < meshcollider> Heh "Note the author of these notes is insulted by the above exchange."
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22:10 < achow101> meshcollider: yes
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23:06 < wumpus> hehe
23:07 < wumpus> good to see meeting notes again
23:08 < wumpus> Ivan should probably credit his own name too?
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23:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6e4e98ee8ce2...fe503e118f08
23:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 620bae3 Matt Corallo: Require a steady clock for bench with at least micro precision
23:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fe503e1 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11646: Require a steady clock for bench with at least micro precision...
23:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11646: Require a steady clock for bench with at least micro precision (master...2017-11-11562-cleanups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11646
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