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02:18 < promag> jonasschnelli: ping
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04:17 < cluelessperson> I will be putting together some aggregated CSV data regarding block times, fees, transactions, etc.  Let me know if you want a link
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04:18 < promag> +1     
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04:30 < promag> sipa: should there be support for P2WPKH in signmessage?
04:30 < promag> verifymessage as well
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04:42 < promag> sipa: nevermind, already noted in #11403 description.
04:42 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11403 | SegWit wallet support by sipa · Pull Request #11403 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:42 < wumpus> should we cancel today's meeting because of thanksgiving?
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07:45 < luke-jr> I won't be able to make it, at leat
07:45 < luke-jr> least*
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07:50 < wumpus> that's probably true for most people from the US
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08:00 < instagibbs> still may be a critical mass, though I will not be around
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08:02 < cluelessperson> wumpus: if there is a meeting, may I be present?
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08:03 < wumpus> cluelessperson: there's no need to ask that
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08:04 < wumpus> the meeting is here every week 19:00 UTC, everyone is welcome
08:14 < cluelessperson> sweet, sorry, I've been hanging in channel, but I've been avoiding speaking here as I feel I lack skill sets to be of much help
08:16 < wumpus> every week thursday*
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08:17 < luke-jr> if you don't have something helpful to say, don't say it; if you do, say it XD
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08:26 < cluelessperson> luke-jr: but my name is accurate!
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09:33 < mlz> no meeting today though?
09:33 < sipa> i may be able to attend
09:34 < mlz> Happy Thanksgiving to all Core devs! Thank you for your hard work and dedication!  :) 
09:34 < Eliel> how much memory does the UTXO set require per txout currently and what's the theoretical minimum it can be pushed down to?
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09:40 < Eliel> according to statoshi info, the current serialized UTXO set has ~55500000 transactions and that takes 2.9GB of space. So, that comes out to something like 53 bytes per utxo
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09:40 < Eliel> I suppose I'll go with that.
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10:04 < wumpus> mlz: thanks!
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10:16 < wumpus> Eliel: it also needs to be in an efficient format to make updates, otherwise you end up rewriting the whole thing for every block
10:18 < Eliel> wumpus: would that be more than 53 bytes per txout?
10:18 < wumpus> I mean you can probably save some space by just concatenating the whole thing then putting it through a compressor with a large block size, but except as a snapshot it'd not be useful
10:19 < wumpus> I don't know.
10:20 < wumpus> it will still be of the same order anyhow
10:20 < Eliel> I'm trying to estimate the amount amount of RAM required on full nodes per user for LN users and non-LN users, so I guess the accuracy of the number is not a big issue. As long as it's not off by an order of magnitude :)
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10:38 < jonasschnelli> Oh. It's thanks giving... I would be around for the meeting.
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10:43 < wxss_> clear
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10:47 < meshcollider> I'm flying to Sydney in half an hour or so so I'll only be here for the first part of the meeting if it's on
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11:00 < achow101> Meeting?
11:01 < Provoostenator> Suggested topic: onboarding
11:02 < sipa> present
11:02 < jonasschnelli> here
11:02 < wumpus> #startmeeting
11:02 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 23 19:02:43 2017 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:02 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
11:03 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag
11:04 < wumpus> Provoostenator: onboarding?
11:04 < wumpus> #topic high priority for review
11:04 < jonasschnelli> Should we discuss https://gist.github.com/sipa/125cfa1615946d0c3f3eec2ad7f250a2 (sipas wallet design)?
11:04 < wumpus> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
11:04 < jonasschnelli> ack     
11:04 < Provoostenator> I'd like to propose adding a project Onboarding to this list: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects
11:04 < BlueMatt> wumpus: lol uhhhhhh its a holiday in .us
11:04  * BlueMatt expected meeting was cancelled today
11:04 < wumpus> Provoostenator: I don't understand what you mean with onboarding
11:05 < sipa> wumpus: bringing new people on board, i assume
11:05 < jonasschnelli> m2     
11:05 < Provoostenator> That project would contain the first PR of any new contributor.
11:05 < wumpus> BlueMatt: yes, I asked whether to cancel the meeting earlier today
11:05 < sipa> we     
11:05 < wumpus> BlueMatt: but only luke-jr was for it
11:05 < sipa> we're clearly at lower attendance, so let's avoid committing to anything
11:06 < sipa> doesn't mean things can't be discussed
11:06 < wumpus> I'm fine with cancelling the meeting
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11:06 < BlueMatt> wumpus: heh, well everyone who would have suggested cancelling was already gone for vacation :p
11:06 < wumpus> ok     
11:06 < jonasschnelli> Lets keep the meeting running...
11:06 < wumpus> meeting is cancelled today
11:06 < wumpus> #endmeeting
11:06 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov 23 19:06:32 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
11:06 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-23-19.02.html
11:06 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-23-19.02.txt
11:06 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-23-19.02.log.html
11:06 < promag> nice
11:06 < jonasschnelli> ;-)     
11:06 < achow101> we could still talk about things though
11:06 < jonasschnelli> Sure.
11:06 < promag> topic suggestion, network conf etc
11:07 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: what would be the benefit behind that (first PR) project ?
11:07 < Provoostenator> New PR's always get a lot of attention, but after a while they lose attention. That's fine for experienced devs, but I think it discourages new contribuors.
11:07  * BlueMatt -> vacation, see y'all next week
11:07 < promag> o/     
11:07 < wumpus> Provoostenator: I think it's okay to go into this room and shout at people to review your PR
11:07 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: Yes. One needs endurance. :)
11:07 < Provoostenator> Once they get their first PR in, they're probably much more likely to keep contributing and be more assertive / patient.
11:08 < jonasschnelli> If it looses attention, then it's probably not priority or the dev did not shout loud enough
11:08 < jonasschnelli> The main bottleneck is still serious reviews
11:08 < kanzure> hi.     
11:08 < achow101> jonasschnelli: sometimes people don't know that they should shout
11:08 < wumpus> I mean it's sometimes sad how PRs go ignored, but it's kind of how open source works, you need to bring attention to your PRs somehow
11:08 < kanzure> i missed the meeting :(
11:08 < Provoostenator> Yes, that's why this Project would only apply to the first PR. After that they can be encouraged to shout more.
11:09 < sipa> or people aren't aware that some things take a long time - and this doesn't mean they're not going to happen
11:09 < wumpus> e.g. if it fixes a issue, then reply to people posting issues to test your patch
11:09 < achow101> kanzure: we decided during the meeting that we wouldn't have a meeting :)
11:09 < jonasschnelli> sipa: indeed
11:09 < jonasschnelli> I think we should maybe add a beginners guide...
11:09 < jonasschnelli> Some people expect merges in 1-2 days.
11:09 < wumpus> add it to CONTRIBUTING.md
11:09 < jonasschnelli> yeah
11:10 < Provoostenator> Yeah, I've seen PR's by very experienced people open for over a year, so indeed peoples should have realistic expectations.
11:10 < jonasschnelli> Adding new PRs to the project would be another thing maintainers have to care about
11:10 < promag> there is also the case that a review sits there for a long time
11:10 < wumpus> bitcoin isn't really a good project for first time open source contributors in that regard, some projects just merge everything effectively instantly, but we cannot have a policy like that, not for first contributors ither
11:10 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: recently a 2yr old PR of mine got merged... 
11:11 < sipa> my first PR took half a year, and that was in 2011 :)
11:11 < wumpus> promag: oh yes, indeed, some PRs get lots of review then the author pretty much just ignores it
11:11 < wumpus> promag: and they get closed after half a year or longer
11:11 < Provoostenator> @wumpus good point that it's not a good first open source project. Although the quality of reviews is really great for learning.
11:11 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: I think you could add a part in CONTRIBUTING.md
11:11 < jonasschnelli> that would be helpful for new contributors
11:11 < promag> right, it's also a bit weird to submit a PR, have reviews, and then it's ignored by the author
11:12 < BlueMatt> CBlockStore is still WIP from 2012 :p
11:12 < wumpus> authors can also get more attention by helping review other patches
11:12 < Provoostenator> I think contributing.md already says it takes a long time and you shoudl go on IRC.
11:12 < promag> true, some authors ignore other PR's, but that's more acceptable IMO
11:12 < wumpus> in any case of a PR really fixes a bug or issue, it won't usually take that long before it's merged unless something is wrong and not being fixed
11:12 < achow101> unfortunately people don't really read the documentation that explains what they should do
11:13 < Provoostenator> Yeah, so maybe something we could add to that doc is to encourage people to find a painful issue. 
11:13 < wumpus> fix issues that affect peopel
11:13 < wumpus> yep     
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11:13 < Provoostenator> E.g. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/labels/good%20first%20issue
11:13 < achow101> easiest way to find issues is to read bitcointalk and wait for people to do stupid things
11:13 < wumpus> we mention that in the CONTRIBUTING a bit afaik, that a refactor or style change is a bad idea for first contributors
11:13 < Provoostenator> Though in that case we should make sure that that label is correctly applied.
11:14 < wumpus> maybe that could be extendded
11:14 < wumpus> Provoostenator: if you have suggestions on issues that should be labeled just highlight me or fanquake here
11:14 < promag> Provoostenator: there is also around 200 TODO in the code
11:14 < achow101> if we're actually going to use "good first issue" for this, we should probably remove the release schedule from that tag
11:14 < Provoostenator> I'm still not sure which issues are both easy enough for a first time contributor AND important enough to get attention in review.
11:15 < wumpus> achow101: yeah...
11:15 < achow101> it's funny and all, but has confused a few people too
11:15 < wumpus> achow101: makes it easy to find it though
11:15 < wumpus> achow101: really?
11:15 < achow101> make a release schedule tag
11:16 < wumpus> I think it's quite useful that the release schedule appears as one of the first issues people see
11:16 < Provoostenator> Has Google Summer of Code ever done Bitcoin Core projects? https://developers.google.com/open-source/gsoc/
11:16 < wumpus> can't really think of a way that would confuse anyone
11:16 < achow101> wumpus: it was mostly confusion as to why that was there
11:16 < Provoostenator> I participated in that in 2008 and it was a great experience. I haven't followed the program since though.
11:17 < wumpus> we've never done that AFAIK
11:17 < Provoostenator> And they require a mentor from the project. I'm open to volunteer as a mentor.
11:18 < wumpus> if anyone has a proposal for a project that would be a good fit for it we could try, but I'm not sure
11:18 < achow101> redo the wallet
11:18 < sipa> achow101: lol
11:18 < achow101> ;)     
11:18 < promag> ah     
11:18 < jonasschnelli> heh...
11:18 < jonasschnelli> that's actually the topic i'd like to talk about
11:18 < jonasschnelli> (serious)
11:18 < aj> (integrated qt blockchain explorer?)
11:19 < Provoostenator> I don't know if we'd need to propose a project, or whether the student proposes a project (in coordination with a mentor).
11:19 < Provoostenator> I'll read up on it.
11:19 < jonasschnelli> sipa: your design documents states that there are a lot of changes that have to be made to the wallet,.. and...
11:20 < jonasschnelli> since we have multiwallet, would it not be simpler to add a 2nd wallet implementation that could be selective used for new wallets?
11:20 < wumpus> here, a PR by first-time contributor that gets a lot of review instantly: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11747
11:20 < sipa> jonasschnelli: i'm very happy to talk about that
11:20 < sipa> jonasschnelli: i really don't think so
11:20 < sipa> i've considered making a second wallet too, but it
11:20 < sipa> 's a pointless exercise i think
11:20 < wumpus> that was discussed so many times over the years
11:20 < achow101> jonasschnelli: I think it would be better to just make a new wallet format entirely and make it completely backwards incompatible
11:21 < Provoostenator> @wumpus new tickets always get tons of attention. It's the stale ones that worry me.
11:21 < sipa> achow101: indeed
11:21 < sipa> achow101: seen my writeup? :)
11:21 < achow101> sipa: yeah
11:21 < Provoostenator> And a new contributor might just pick the wrong topic (like making RBF a default :-)
11:21 < promag> sipa: >  pointless exercise i think - why?
11:21 < wumpus> Provoostenator: I don't think it's about newness in this case - the person explained clearly what the issue was, then fixed it, with a straightforward patch
11:21 < sipa> promag: those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it
11:21 < jonasschnelli> achow101, sipa: but wouldn't this end up in have a large amount of code handling the back. compatibilizt?
11:22 < wumpus> Provoostenator: it's also about communication and doing something people care about :)
11:22 < promag> sipa: and those that know history?
11:22 < jonasschnelli> I don't mean rewrite the wallet, I mean copy the wallet souces, remove accounts, remove pools, remove all the upgrade migrations, add new SW stuff
11:22 < jonasschnelli> same same but different
11:22 < sipa> promag: will have much more impact working on existing code, rather than starting over and hoping it will attract review attention
11:22 < wumpus> yeah...
11:23 < jonasschnelli> that's a point
11:23 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: well accounts should be removed out from the current source, not a copy 
11:23 < sipa> ack     
11:23 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: same for some of those other things 
11:23 < jonasschnelli> I just fear the migration at statup thing...
11:24 < jonasschnelli> also,... that we keep BDB4.8 until core 0.25
11:24 < sipa> heh, swapping out the storage format seems orthogonal
11:24 < wumpus> changing the storage format to another database is pretty easy
11:24 < achow101> jonasschnelli: does it need to migrate at startup?
11:24 < wumpus> I changed it locally to leveldb a while ago
11:25 < sipa> jonasschnelli: for the storage format, it think it should be done independently from everything else
11:25 < sipa> so that it is a straight translation from one db to another, and none of the key/values inside change meaning
11:25 < sipa> which means upgrade and downgrade are trivial
11:25 < wumpus> (because I didn't want to port berkeleydb to that environment)
11:25 < wumpus> exactly sipa
11:25 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Right
11:26 < sipa> _independently_ we should think about a new semantic layer (see my writeup, for part of that), which will be an incompatible upgrade at some point i expect
11:26 < sipa> but it doesn't need to happen at the same time as the storage layer change
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11:27 < jonasschnelli> sipa: you mean the record type schemantics?
11:27 < sipa> yes     
11:27 < achow101> sipa: it seems like a storage layer change would be the easiest way to guarantee incompatibility
11:27 < wumpus> my biggest annoyance about the current wallet is that it reads everything into memory, it's a database ffs
11:27 < sipa> achow101: version numbers work pretty well :)
11:28 < jonasschnelli> sipa: you wrote "Conversion of old wallet to new ones will probably be the trickiest part. It will involve a one-time operation at startup"....
11:28 < sipa> jonasschnelli: yes
11:28 < achow101> sipa: but then you have two incompatible upgrades, versus one
11:28 < wumpus> there's no need to have all transactions and crap going back years in memory
11:28 < sipa> achow101: storage layer wouldn't be incompatible
11:29 < achow101> why would they be compatible? Older software wouldn't be able to read a new storage format
11:29 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]     
11:29 < jonasschnelli> I gust questioning the endless backward compatibility. If we don't do us a favor and set a point (version X) where the wallet crated with version X will no longer be backware comp.
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11:29 < sipa> sure, but both upgrade and downgrade would be trivial
11:30 < sipa> both things can happen in the same release, and that would certainly be more convenient
11:30 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: backwards compatibility is extremely important, though it'd be fine with me if that's a one-time upgrade at some point
11:30 < achow101> right, but then you need something that can downgrade it. if you just downgrade the software, it would be incompatible
11:30 < sipa> but i don't think discussions about changing the storage format should get in the way of semantic changes
11:30 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: but people with old wallets shouldn't be stuck! 
11:30 < sipa> and the other way around
11:30 < wumpus> but downgrading seems completely unimportant to me
11:30 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. This is why I though keeping the legcy stuff but not mixing the code.
11:31 < achow101> ooh we could make CWallet, CDB, CWalletDB, etc. actually make sense then!
11:31 < sipa> hehe
11:31 < Provoostenator> There's also the possibility of importing old wallet from backups rather than old database files. Obviously not a good experience at all.
11:32 < wumpus> achow101: some of the classes need renaming, that's orthogonal :)
11:32 < jonasschnelli> achow101: and there are still some layer violations...
11:32 < sipa> Provoostenator: ?
11:32 < sipa> backups are database files
11:32 < Provoostenator> Oh, it's not using the dump format?
11:32 < sipa> the dump format is just for keys
11:32 < wumpus> no, not if you use walletbackup
11:33 < achow101> Provoostenator: no, it just copies the wallet.dat file to somewhere lese
11:33 < wumpus> dumpwallet/importwallet is separate
11:33 < Provoostenator> I see. Having a backup format that's not a database file would be useful then?
11:34 < sipa> it's complicated
11:34 < wumpus> what do you want to backup?
11:34 < sipa> we have two axes really... secret or not, and mutable or not
11:34 < wumpus> if it's just the keys, dumpwallet is what you want
11:34 < Provoostenator> Keys and metadata.
11:34 < wumpus> if you also want transactions and transaction metadata it's kind of difficult
11:34 < sipa> for example address labels really require a dump after every new address created
11:35 < sipa> stored transactions (especially unconfirmed ones) need a dump after every transaction
11:35  * jonasschnelli vanity generated lables!
11:35 < sipa> but with HD wallets, you don't really need backups at all to prevent monetary loss
11:35 < Provoostenator> I guess I'd want two backups: 1) the HD seed, done once 2) everything else, done every now and then
11:35 < sipa> and which of those is more important depends on the use case
11:36 < sipa> for businesses, losing labels/transactions may be far more harmful than losing some money
11:36 < wumpus> the hd seed is in dumpwallet, for (2) a backupwallet makes sense
11:36 < wumpus> if you just want to backup all data why not use the database format itself
11:36 < Provoostenator> Yes, and businesses need a paper trail for audits, ideally one that doesn't contain a private key.
11:37 < sipa> so perhaps there should be a way to separate the two
11:37 < Provoostenator> Because a database format is too specific.
11:37 < jonasschnelli> sipa: hardware wallets?
11:37 < wumpus> Provoostenator: too specific for what? the metadata format is also completely specific to this wallet
11:37 < Provoostenator> There's no bookkeeper / accountant in the world that can handle a .dat file, but they all know CSV or some other more text-like standard.
11:37 < jonasschnelli> I think long term we should not expect that private keys are on the same machine then bitcoin core runs (at least not with the current one process design)
11:38 < wumpus> Provoostenator: the GUI can do a csv export of transactions
11:38 < wumpus> Provoostenator: if that's what you want
11:38 < wumpus> also you can trivially implement that with a listtransactions then convert the JSON to CSV
11:38 < wumpus> no need for that to be the client's storage format
11:39 < wumpus> too many people are trying to solve problems by changing the program's internal storage format to be an external interface
11:39 < wumpus> that's IMO wrong
11:39 < Provoostenator> Ah I didn't know that feature. That's a good step and probably the most important metadata.
11:40 < wumpus> if you want to export something, export it somehow, export exactly the data you need for some reason
11:40 < wumpus> doesn't need to map to any internal data storage separation
11:40 < Provoostenator> There's also the issue of long term storage.
11:40 < wumpus> do you care how mysql stores its files? (besides it being efficient)
11:41 < Provoostenator> In 50 years a txt dump will be readable, I doubt anyone can still parse the DB format.
11:41 < wumpus> Provoostenator: that's where the dump format is for!
11:41 < Provoostenator> @wumpus true
11:42 < wumpus> it contains the private keys and the HD seed
11:42 < meshcollider> And if you go and review #11667 then the dump format can include the scripts too ;)
11:42 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11667 | Add scripts to dumpwallet RPC by MeshCollider · Pull Request #11667 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:42 < wumpus> meshcollider: yes!
11:42 < Provoostenator> @gribble added to my list
11:42 < wumpus> we have a surprising lot already covered with the current functionality
11:43 < sipa> i wish we didn't have to continue the "bag-of-keys-and-script" approach in dumps, but i don't think there is a way around it now
11:44 < wumpus> how do you mean? how would a dump work if it doesn't contain keys and scripts?
11:44 < sipa> wumpus: read my writeup
11:44 < Provoostenator> @sipa apart from your (useful) writeup, is there any other good documentation on how the wallet database and in memory storage currently works?
11:44 < wumpus> at least for compatiblity with other software it's probably useful if it contains all that data
11:45 < sipa> Provoostenator: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master ;)
11:45 < Provoostenator> And how that's seperated between the RPC and GUI, if at all.
11:45 < sipa> Provoostenator: there is no separation, they act on the same data structures
11:45 < jonasschnelli> only the code can tell you
11:45 < Provoostenator> @sipa I thought so. I'll figure it out eventually, but probably not before you've finished and merged the improvements.
11:46 < Provoostenator> Is the idea to have the GUI communicate with the RPC and not have direct access to wallet.dat files?
11:46 < sipa> i don't believe the RPC interface is the right approach
11:46 < Provoostenator> Or is the GUI not supposed to be completely seperate?
11:46 < wumpus> what do you hope to accomplish with that?
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11:47 < wumpus> besides satisfying some degree of 'code neatness'
11:47 < sipa> ryanofsky is working on separating the gui from the daemon, but through a specialized interface
11:47 < sipa> rather than through RPC
11:47 < Provoostenator> For one thing, running a GUI wallet on a different machine.
11:47 < wumpus> the RPC is not for remote communication
11:47 < dejarp> sounds like there needs to be an open standard for wallet files
11:47 < wumpus> :-)     
11:48 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: I think an viable approach here is communicating over the p2p with SPV and BIP150/151
11:48 < sipa> Provoostenator: running a GUI *wallet* on a different machine (from the node)? or running a *GUI* on the a different machine (from the wallet)
11:48 < Provoostenator> ACtually to be more precise, I'd like to keep the blockchain on a seperate machine
11:48 < sipa> Provoostenator: lightweight mode is the way to go there
11:48 < sipa> Provoostenator: run several lightweight node+wallet instances, have them connect to a trusted full node
11:48 < Provoostenator> @sipa the first is good enough.
11:48 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: please review https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10794 (its a stepping stone for GUI sep.)
11:49 < sipa> jonasschnelli: no it isn't?
11:49 < jonasschnelli> sipa: why not?
11:49 < Provoostenator> @jonasschnelli added to list. Good to understand the context.
11:49 < Provoostenator> (actually that was already on my review list :-)
11:50 < sipa> jonasschnelli: GUI separation is about sepating the wallet from the UI
11:50 < sipa> jonasschnelli: that PR is about separating the wallet from the node
11:50 < jonasschnelli> sipa: I though we are talking about bothj
11:50 < Provoostenator> Do I understand correctly that it still needs to download blocks?
11:50 < jonasschnelli> GUI from the wallet is a different things...
11:50 < sipa> jonasschnelli: yes, but they're entirely orthogonal
11:51 < Provoostenator> I mean, I'd like to be able to tell a node: here's the public keys for my wallet, go watch them, I'll call you if I need anything.
11:51 < Provoostenator> (a very trusted node obviously)
11:51 < sipa> jonasschnelli: you're saying that 10794 is a step towards GUI separation... no it isn't, it has nothing to do with it
11:51 < sipa> it's a step towards separating the wallet from the validation
11:51 < meshcollider> Provoostenator: isn't that exactly what SPV does with bloom filters
11:51 < wumpus> Provoostenator: FWIW that's how electrum works
11:51 < Provoostenator> And this would also make it easier to connect third party wallets to a full node.
11:51 < wumpus> Provoostenator: and all other light clients, yeah
11:52 < jonasschnelli> sipa: I think it is a step towards Provoostenator usecase "run the wallet on a different machine".
11:52 < sipa> Provoostenator: the P2P protocol already supports that fine
11:52 < Provoostenator> Bloom filters seem overkill if you trust the node (and encryption and such are fixed)
11:52 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: yes. But the code is there and works. :)
11:53 < wumpus> yes, bloom filters work right now
11:53 < wumpus> there's been so much discussion of doing other things
11:53 < wumpus> for years
11:53 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: and it would also allow one to scarify privacy and connect to a random peer in case his trusted peer is unavailable
11:53 -!- ekrok [~ekrok@85.200.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]     
11:53 < wumpus> if you want the just-send-pubkeys approach, look at the electrum protocol
11:54 < Provoostenator> Working code and random-peer-fallback is certainly a benefit.
11:54 < wumpus> run your own trusted electrum server, the client-to-server protocol is encrypted, so you're covered there
11:55 < Provoostenator> @wumpus doesn't the electrum server need a huge database on top of the blockchain storage?
11:55 < wumpus> no need to reinvent everything in the ecosystem just to put the 'core' label on it
11:55 < wumpus> Provoostenator: yes, that's what you need for *general* querying by pubkey
11:56 < wumpus> Provoostenator: if your wallet keeps its own state and tracks the blockchain, then you don't need that, that's more like SPV clients
11:56 < wumpus> Provoostenator: it's a compromise
11:56 < Provoostenator> Watch-only addresses are another route, right?
11:56 < Provoostenator> So you'd give your trusted node a set of addresses to watch moving forward, and then you use bloom filters to get info later.
11:57 < Provoostenator> So then the only new feature is watch-only addresses, if I understand correctly (no idea how hard that is). 
11:58 < wumpus> watch-only addresses have been supported for ages, for example the joinmarket wallet uses them
12:00 < sipa> though you query them over RPC, not via P2P-Bloom
12:00 < wumpus> importaddress was first added in 0.10.0
12:00 < jtimon> oops, missed the meeting...
12:00 < wumpus> yes... they're completely separate
12:00 < wumpus> jtimon: there was no meeting, thanksgiving
12:00 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@CPE-101-181-32-51.lnse4.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]     
12:00 < jtimon> oh, ok
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12:04 < Provoostenator> I need to read up on what bloom filter functionality is in Core. 
12:04 -!- Winwin [~Winwin@35.100.126.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit []     
12:05 < wumpus> Provoostenator: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0037.mediawiki
12:05 < sipa> BIP37
12:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ldm5180 opened pull request #11760: [crypto] Refactor HMAC_SHA to eliminate code duplication (master...generic-hmac_sha) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11760
12:08  * jonasschnelli not sure if new contributors should fiddle with the SHA256 code
12:09 < Varunram> Hey, I'm new here but thanks for the attention to new devs, it'll help a lot!
12:10 < Varunram> I'd like to pitch in regarding GSoC, applications open january 4, if core is interested. You guys will be required to propose a project (or at least a list of possible projects) and applicants will have to choose from them. First time orgs get only 1-2 slots though
12:10 -!- dejarp [438e609e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.142.96.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]     
12:12 < Varunram> Doesn't matter for a big project like Core, but still, my 2 sats :)
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12:14 < wumpus> Varunram: thanks for the info - but yes we'll have to think a bit about possible projects then,maybe a topic for next meeting
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12:21 < Provoostenator> wumpus: so IIUC: SPV uses more bandwidth than the just-send-pubkeys approach, but doesn't require running an electrum server?
12:22 < Provoostenator> jonasschnelli: and IIUC your goal with #10794 is to pave the way to run a Core wallet in SPV mode?
12:22 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10794 | Add simple light-client mode (RPC only) by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #10794 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:24 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: SPV (especially full block without client side filtering) takes much more bandwith...
12:25 < Provoostenator> I should have more specific: to use bloom filters?
12:25 < jonasschnelli> Electrum does not preserve your privacy
12:25 < jonasschnelli> Bloom filter also not
12:25 < jonasschnelli> *filters
12:25 < Provoostenator> Well, it does if it's my own machine :-)
12:25 < jonasschnelli> Yes.. and if the channel is encrypted and authenticated.
12:26 < jonasschnelli> BF would be okay if BIP150/151
12:26 < Provoostenator> I'm trying to think about the use case where I have my own full node in some place, but I want to make transactions on my computer / phone / wherever.
12:26 < Provoostenator> And understanding the various trade-offs.
12:26 < wumpus> electrum uses TLS by default, FWIW
12:26 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: I see two solutions for that...
12:26 < Provoostenator> (assuming BIP150/151 for the sake of argument)
12:27 < jonasschnelli> a) you use BIP150 (or other enc/auth) via p2p and use SPV BF on your phone/remove client
12:27 < wumpus> as long as you use it with your own server it's ok, and it already exists
12:27 < jonasschnelli> b) you add a script to your bitcoin core machine that would server over TLS (an RPC proxy)
12:27 < jonasschnelli> b2) while your remote phone is just an "extended" RPC client
12:27 < jonasschnelli> (which would also have the private keys)
12:28 < Provoostenator> An additional contraint is that I would trust the node for giving me correct data, but not for holding private keys. I'm not sure if that's a reasonable contraint.
12:28 < jonasschnelli> Yes. The probably simplest approach would be SPV BF over auth/enc
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12:28 < jonasschnelli> 10794 follows also another goal..
12:28 < jonasschnelli> What if you don't have a remote node?
12:29 < jonasschnelli> 10794 (and future work) does allow you to use the wallet while your node is still bootstraping
12:29 < jonasschnelli> My primary goal is to work against the current wallet trend... which is..
12:30 < Provoostenator> @jonasschnelli b2 might be acceptable with an ecrypted wallet, but a seems better
12:30 < jonasschnelli> centralized validation, and even remote key holding
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12:30 < jonasschnelli> The current bitcoin wallets do loose one of the primary elements Bitcoin can defeat "Trusted third parties are security holes".
12:30 < Provoostenator> I'm thinking e.g. a full node at home, where if someone physcailly breaks in I'd know about that and just not use it.
12:30 < jonasschnelli> I'd like to see more users using Bitcoin Core as a wallet
12:31 < Provoostenator> @jonasschnelli me too, but I think a more realistic scenario is more people running Bitcoin Core nodes and connecting their favorite wallet to it.
12:31 < jonasschnelli> But right now,... the burden is just to hight
12:32 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: both is possible....
12:32 < Provoostenator> Although with things like #11720 it might be possible, certainly with bloom filters.
12:32 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11720 | iOS Deployment Target for RPC · Issue #11720 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:32 < jonasschnelli> BIP150/151 would work towards trustworthy direct connections
12:32 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: Sure!
12:33 < Provoostenator> Right, these are all useful ingredients. I'm mostly trying to wrap my head around how they all fit together.
12:34 < jonasschnelli> With the current RPC calls it would also be possible to write a (iOS) client that would speak over RPC (via a proxy/apache script via TLS)... the client would hold the keys
12:34 < jonasschnelli> and use fundrawtransaction and watch-onlies
12:36 < Provoostenator> Something tells me more people will use it if it "just works" and everything happens on the phone. 
12:37 < Provoostenator> Another benefit of using the Core code base is that you don't have to re-invent the wheel for things like coin selection (especially if it gets dramatic improvements in the future).
12:38 < jonasschnelli> The "just works" approach is very important and a reason why I try to kick BIP150/151 forward even with the fact that it's already sort of possible with stunnel, VPN, TOR
12:40 < Provoostenator> jonasschnelli: I was quite surprised when I learned encryption wasn't already a thing. I liked your talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VZrT9IOq30
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12:43 < wumpus> TIL there's a program called "tig" that is a ncurses (terminal) git UI, I really like it
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12:44  * jonasschnelli executing "brew install tig"
12:44 < jonasschnelli> looks nice
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12:46 < wumpus> yes I'm surprised I hadn't heard about it before
12:48 < Provoostenator> Speaking of tools: any favorite IRC clients for OSX? And a good way to setup email notifications if someone mentions you when you're offline? I'm trying to set that up through the Slack bridge now.
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12:53 < sipa> Provoostenator: i use ssh + screen + irssi
12:53 < wumpus> dunno about mail notifications, but I kind of like quassel, it has a separate frontend and backend, so from whatever device you log in your backlog is there, including highlights if someone mentioned you
12:54 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: I use Textual 7 (macOS) with a ZNC bouncer
12:54 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: I use a ZNC mod that sends me a Telegram on PM
12:54 < wumpus> there's also a pyquassel to connect programmatically, it's possible to watch for messages and set up things like mail notification or other scripting
12:54 < jonasschnelli> (the mod has various push channels)
12:55 < jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: ZNC is you IRC swiss army knife... also can log for you, etc.
12:55 < wumpus> but yeah you can do the same with irssi - there's even an irssi based frontend for quassel if you want to combine them :-)
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12:59 < Provoostenator> Thanks, I'll take a look at both approaches.
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13:12 < wumpus> github's commit notifier is broken again
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13:17 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: the twitter bridge worked... only IRC?
13:19 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: seems so!
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14:21 < phantomcircuit> wumpus, i like znc more than quassel
14:22 < wumpus> ok, I prefer quassel
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14:24 < sipa> real programmers use telnet, and speak RFC2812 natively
14:25 < wumpus> hah     
14:26 < phantomcircuit> sipa, gl replying to pings in time from freenode
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14:27 < telnetuser> @phantomcircuit no problem, you'll see!
14:30 < wumpus> phantomcircuit: no more idlers
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14:31 < phantomcircuit> lol you are using telnet
14:31 < sipa> damn, how do i type a CTCP version reply? :(
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14:35 < phantomcircuit> sipa, gotcha
14:35 < phantomcircuit> you have to be able to send 0x01
14:36 < sipa> yes, i found that out
14:36 < sipa> but don't know how to do that in telnet
14:36 < sipa> offtopic i guess :)
14:37 < wumpus> through xclip maybe
14:39 < wumpus> or ctrl-A if it works
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15:02 < phantomcircuit> sipa, fail
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