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01:10 < koichirose> hello! what could be the reason for 0.16 to always return legacy addresses, even with 'getnewaddress “” p2sh-segwit’?
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02:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e0f7515f5500...ad823178e85a
02:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bcab47b Kevin Pan: use base58 map instead of strchr()
02:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ad82317 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12704: base58: use map instead of strchr() when decode...
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02:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12704: base58: use map instead of strchr() when decode (master...b58_bitmap) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12704
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02:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ad823178e85a...185d48473e43
02:32 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0ec08a6 John Newbery: [Tests] Move assert_start_raises_init_error method to TestNode
02:32 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5812273 John Newbery: [Tests] Require exact match in assert_start_raises_init_eror()
02:32 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fae1374 MarcoFalke: qa: Allow for partial_match when checking init error...
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02:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12718: [Tests] Require exact match in assert_start_raises_init_eror (jnewbery) (master...Mf1803-qaRegexInitError) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12718
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03:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/185d48473e43...6d36f599f88e
03:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c8330d4 MarcoFalke: qa: Use node.datadir instead of tmpdir in test framework
03:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6d36f59 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12076: qa: Use node.datadir instead of tmpdir in test framework...
03:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12076: qa: Use node.datadir instead of tmpdir in test framework (master...Mf1801-qaUseUtilDatadir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12076
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03:26 < wumpus> jnewbery: done
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04:35 < timothy> is it normal that verificationprogress in getblockchaininfo are never 1?
04:35 < timothy> when blockchain in synched too
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06:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6d36f599f88e...a6926b065d65
06:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1e0ee90 Martin Ankerl: Use best-fit strategy in Arena, now O(log(n)) instead O(n)...
06:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5fbf7c4 Martin Ankerl: fix nits: variable naming, typos
06:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a6926b0 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12048: Use best-fit strategy in Arena, now O(log(n)) instead O(n)...
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06:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12048: Use best-fit strategy in Arena, now O(log(n)) instead O(n) (master...faster_arena) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12048
06:32 < eklitzke> timothy: it's normal, it uses a heuristic to guess what the current tip is as a floating point height
06:33 < timothy> eklitzke: so it's better to use something like bitcoin-cli getblockchaininfo | jq ".blocks == .headers" ?
06:33 < timothy> to know when it's synched
06:33 < eklitzke> i just check if progress is > 0.9999 but that seems reasonable to me too
06:36 < echeveria> probably no reason to not expose isInitalBlockDownload there. 
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06:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #12755: [tests] Better stderr testing (master...better_stderr_testing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12755
06:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #12379: [WIP] Better stderr testing in functional tests (master...test_full_stderr2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12379
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07:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a6926b065d65...c290508a5ebf
07:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8674e74 murrayn: Provide relevant error message if datadir is not writable.
07:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c290508 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12630: Provide useful error message if datadir is not writable....
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07:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12630: Provide useful error message if datadir is not writable. (master...datadir_writable) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12630
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07:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #12756: [config] Remove blockmaxsize option (master...remove_blockmaxsize) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12756
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07:53 < instagibbs> wumpus, #12742 looks ready
07:53 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12742 | Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface by sipa · Pull Request #12742 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #12757: Clarify include guard naming convention (master...include-guard) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12757
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09:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c290508a5ebf...f686002a8eba
09:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1ec1602 Pieter Wuille: Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface...
09:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f686002 MarcoFalke: Merge #12742: Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface...
09:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #12742: Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface (master...201803_stdrandom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12742
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11:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] eklitzke opened pull request #12759: [Docs] Improve formatting of developer notes (master...developer-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12759
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11:24 < Randolf> I was looking at the FAQ at the Bitcoin.org web site, and I didn't find any mention of Segregated Witness nor the Lightning Network.  I'm wondering if an entry should be added?  https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#transactions
11:25 < Randolf> The reason I ask about this is that I've seen questions in the #bitcoin channel and in other forums about this, and it seems that there is confusion regarding it.
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11:29 < sipa> Randolf: i'm sure they value contributions
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11:31 < Randolf> sipa:  Is bitcoin.org's content not part of overall project?
11:31 < BlueMatt> I believe bitcoin.org has gone mostly unmaintained for the past few months, so segwit stuff never landed before folks stopped working
11:31 < Randolf> A few months is not a big deal to me.  I'd be happy to write something up for the FAQ.
11:32 < sipa> Randolf: no, it's a site privately run website
11:32 < Randolf> I just need to know a bit more about the Lightning Network support before I do that.
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11:32 < sipa> Randolf: the project's website is bitcoincore.org
11:32 < Randolf> sipa:  I know that Bitcoin.com is privately owned and operated by a BCash fanatic.  I was always under the impression that Bitcoin.org was the good one.
11:33 < Randolf> Yeah, I know that BitcoinCore.org is part of the development side of things.
11:33 < BlueMatt> no, bitcoin.org is *also* a privately-run website
11:33 < BlueMatt> I mean it doesnt deliberately try to confuse people as to the bcash-v-bitcoin thing, so its better in that regard, sure
11:33 < BlueMatt> but similar setup
11:34 < BlueMatt> bitcoincore.org is the *only* site that is in any way associated with the bitcoin core project
11:35 < Randolf> According to WHOIS, bitcoin.org is legally owned by "WhoisGuard, Inc."
11:35 < wumpus> last I heard cobra was busy with a redesign of bitcoin.org, but yea maintenance for the site is not very active in general. That shouldn't dissuade you from contributing, though.
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11:36 < Randolf> wumpus:  I don't typically judge web sites by their update frequency.
11:37 < Randolf> While it makes sense for some web sites (e.g., news), for most just having high quality content is sufficient.
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11:39 < wumpus> doesn't seem there is a PR open yet adding informatino about segwit or lightning: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pulls
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11:46 < Randolf> wumpus:  Thanks for that link.  I'll try to get involved in that project.
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11:55 < wumpus> thanks
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11:59 < dongcarl> Does anyone understand dwheeler's DDC method? Could be good for further ensuring binary security when integrated with Gitian.
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12:00 < wumpus> I don't know about it - but probably better to ask that after the meeting
12:00 < sipa> meeting!
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 22 19:00:45 2018 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:01 < provoostenator> Hi     
12:01 < morcos> kind of here
12:01 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
12:01 < kanzure> hi.     
12:01 < cfields> hi     
12:01 < achow101> oh right, it's thursday
12:01 < wumpus> yep     
12:01 < instagibbs> hi     
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12:01 < wumpus> any topic suggestions?
12:02 < BlueMatt> <topic suggestion>
12:02 < wumpus> #topic high priority for review
12:02 < ryanofsky> #11536
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11536 | Rename account to label where appropriate by ryanofsky · Pull Request #11536 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
12:02 < meshcollider> Hi     
12:03 < Randolf> Hello.
12:03 < wumpus> ryanofsky: anothing specific you want to discuss regarding that pr?
12:03 < ryanofsky> just curious about status, if it is ready to be merged or if it needs more review
12:03 < wumpus> anything that needs to be added/removed from high priority for review?
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12:04 < wumpus> ryanofsky: makes sense
12:04 < sipa> i'll have a look in a minute
12:04 < Randolf> PR #12759 looks like it would be an easy one to merge quickly.
12:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12759 | [Docs] Improve formatting of developer notes by eklitzke · Pull Request #12759 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < wumpus> Randolf: that's not the topic though
12:04 < Randolf> Oh, sorry.
12:05 < wumpus> formatting of developer notes is not 'high priority for review' in any definition
12:05 < Randolf> I though you were asking if there was anything to add/remove for review.
12:05 < Randolf> I see.  Yes.
12:05 < wumpus> high priority for review description is: These either block other important work in progress, or are necessary for backport to a minor release.
12:06 < Randolf> Thank you.
12:06 < wumpus> if something can be merged it's better to let me know outside the meeting
12:06 < wumpus> anyhow, it seems people are happy with the current set, next topic
12:06 < provoostenator> Topic suggestion: Gitter (we talked about this recently as a way to lower barrier for new contributors, compared to IRC)
12:06 < jimpo> I've already got one in high pri for review list, but #11857 is more of a blocker for my work
12:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11857 | Build tx index in parallel with validation by jimpo · Pull Request #11857 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < sipa> jimpo: agree that seems a better candidate for now
12:07 < wumpus> jimpo: swap it out?
12:07 < jimpo> Yep     
12:07 < sipa> can i have #12714 on the list?
12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12714 | Introduce interface for signing providers by sipa · Pull Request #12714 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < wumpus> jimpo: done
12:08 < wumpus> sipa: done
12:08 < wumpus> #topic Rename account to label where appropriate (ryanofsky)
12:08 < provoostenator> That PR seems more or less ready to go, right?
12:08 < wumpus> <ryanofsky> just curious about status, if it is ready to be merged or if it needs more review
12:09 < meshcollider> It has 3 tested acks and a utACK already, looks very close if not ready
12:09 < wumpus> ok!     
12:09 < achow101> I thought that was supposed to go after #7729?
12:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7729 | rpc: introduce label API for wallet by laanwj · Pull Request #7729 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:09 < ryanofsky> yeah, i think it's ready
12:09 < achow101> or did I get the order backwards
12:09 < meshcollider> Yeah other way around achow101
12:09 < wumpus> if it's ready it should go in
12:09 < sipa> achow101: 12714 is just a first step taken out of 7729
12:09 < achow101> oh, ok
12:09 < sipa> topic suggestion: what's up with #12694 and next steps?
12:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:09 < meshcollider> Topic suggestion: EOL date for 0.13 ( https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/528 )
12:10 < wumpus> #topic gitter (provoostenator)
12:10 < BlueMatt> it'd have to be mirrored to irc
12:10 < sipa> gitter has an IRC interface
12:10 < BlueMatt> bidirectionally, that is
12:11 < sipa> as in, you can connect to it as an IRC server
12:11 < BlueMatt> sipa: that requires we all move our bouncers, I think thats more than its worth
12:11 < wumpus> I've never used gitter, but I'm not going to join any more chat services
12:11 < sipa> well what's the context?
12:11 < luke-jr> what is it?
12:11 < sipa> i don't think we're planning to move this channel...
12:11 < BlueMatt> its my impression it can be bidirectionally mirrored to irc, which would be fine, but I'm not sure how much its worth
12:11 < Randolf> I've tried other chat services, and they're just not as good as IRC.
12:11 < BlueMatt> sipa: its some newfangled slack-like bullshit that is "for open source projects"
12:11 < wumpus> mirroring sounds fine to me, if ti doesn't increase the noise level too much
12:12 < sipa> BlueMatt: i know; i've used it for another project before and it works pretty well
12:12 < achow101> Isn't the idea to make it easier for people to start contributing?
12:12 < sipa> but i'm wondering why it's being brought up here?
12:12 < wumpus> IIRC monero-dev has a mirroring-bot as well and it works there
12:12 < luke-jr> IRC is easy
12:12 < sipa> provoostenator: ?
12:12 < achow101> I don't think it's hard to setup a mirroring bot at all
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12:12 < provoostenator> IRC is a pain to setup because of the need for a bouncer
12:12 < testweb-morcos> so easy, can't we just tell people how to do this
12:13 < sipa> https://github.com/finnp/gitter-irc-bot
12:13 < wumpus> so - anyhow, if you want to try setting up a mirroring bot, seems people are ok with it
12:13 < achow101> provoostenator: IMO, no. we have a public log of this channel, so if someone isn't online, they can read that
12:13 < luke-jr> provoostenator: if someone wants a bouncer (it's not needed), point them at Quassel
12:13 < provoostenator> So it probably keeps at least some new devs from reaching out. 
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12:13 < wumpus> luke-jr: +1 for quassel
12:14 < achow101> also, there's already a "bitcoin core community" slack that we can use instead of setting up some new service
12:14 < Randolf> There are many different IRC clients available (including some web-based clients).  The problem with a lot of these proprietary messengers is that the options for client software is limited.
12:14 < wumpus> though if someone can't get IRC to work, I'm not sure how much of a dev they really are
12:14 < morcos> webchat.freenode.net is trivial for non-tech people, we should just have simple instructions for using that in some obviouse locations
12:14 < luke-jr> achow101: I hope that gets shut down in a month
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12:15 < jimpo> +1 webchat.freenode.net
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12:15 < luke-jr> morcos: +1
12:15 < dongcarl> Does webchat.freenode.net work for unregistered?
12:15 < luke-jr> dongcarl: yes
12:15 < Randolf> dongcarl:  Yes.
12:15 < provoostenator> I'm fine with better instructions for IRC too, especially if a Gitter bridge is too painful to setup. Agree that monitoring multiple chat things is not a good idea.
12:15 < luke-jr> achow101: (Slack is removing IRC support)
12:16 < achow101> luke-jr: they are??!!
12:16 < achow101> well that sucks
12:16 < luke-jr> yep     
12:16 < cfields> yep     
12:16 < provoostenator> Not a fan of Slack and it's closed nature.
12:16 < sipa> slack had IRC support?
12:16  * Randolf laughs
12:16 < dongcarl> and removing XMPP
12:16 < MarcoFalke> instructions are basically google for "webchat irc"
12:16 < BlueMatt> slack is garbage
12:16 < luke-jr> sipa: yes, until next month, you can login to slacks with an IRC client
12:16 < wumpus> slack is terrible, how can a chat client use so much resources
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12:16 < cfields> sipa: yea, they had a bridge you could enable. Only reason I idle on a few slack channels.
12:16 < sipa> but the fact that that bitcoin core slack exists, and has people discussing things there who are not here, is probably a sign that there exists an actual barrier
12:16 < achow101> we can add a link in the readme that points to webchat.freenode
12:16 < Randolf> wumpus:  Discord uses a lot of resources too.  I tried it for a while but stopped.
12:17 < luke-jr> that's why I was on the Core slack at all
12:17 < provoostenator> wumpus: that's just Electron JS stuff taking up lots of memory.
12:17 < wumpus> achow101: FWIW the reason we haven't done that is to avoid people going here for suport questions
12:17 < luke-jr> sipa: I think the barrier is mobile software
12:17 < sipa> luke-jr: perhaps
12:17 < dongcarl> slack-to-IRC mirror?
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12:17 < sipa> i've heard several smart people complain about IRC being hard to use, though
12:17 < wumpus> a bit of a a barrier isn't a bad thing, this channel is really only for development, not 'core discussion'
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12:18 < achow101> maybe we should start pointing people to https://bitcoincore.org/en/contribute/
12:18 < jimpo> wumpus: In the contributing guide though?
12:18 < achow101> it has all the links and instructions
12:18 < luke-jr> sipa: ask for details? ☺
12:18 < jimpo> Putting instructions for webchat.freenode and the IRC logs?
12:18 < jimpo> Link to the logs is almost more valuable
12:18 < BlueMatt> sipa: we need to kill the fucking slack
12:18 < Randolf> sipa:  Many smart people have trouble using computers in general.  Oh well.
12:18 < sipa> BlueMatt: yes, i agree
12:18 < BlueMatt> or at least rename it Bitcoin Community, not Bitcoin Core....
12:18 < sipa> BlueMatt: but the fact that it exists is probably a sign that things can be improved
12:19 < wumpus> ok, time for next topic I think
12:19 < sipa> :)     
12:19 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: are you here today?
12:19 < wumpus> #topic what's up with #12694 and next steps? (sipa)
12:19 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:19 < sipa> achow101: what is the issue right now?
12:19 < achow101> 12694 is a bug fix because I forgot a line of code
12:20 < achow101> it got lost in a rebase somewhere
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12:20 < sipa> then we should just merge it
12:20 < achow101> next steps are #12605
12:20 < sipa> how bad is it?
12:20 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12605 | High level road map for coin selection changes · Issue #12605 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:20 < achow101> it gets messed up when people use preset inputs, but not too bad I think
12:20 < sipa> can you define "messed up" ?
12:20 < achow101> I think BnB will be missed when that happens, but there's no guarantee
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12:21 < sipa> i see
12:21 < achow101> the preset inputs use actual value, but BnB uses effective value. So using both simultaneously can result in some strange behavior, particularly with fees
12:21 < sipa> what do you think about fixing BnB to work correctly with preset inputs (before also swapping out the fallback selection?)
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12:21 < wumpus> yes seems #12694 is ready for merge
12:22 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:22 < sipa> as i expect that swapping out the fallback selections may take some time
12:22 < achow101> it requires switching everything over to use effective value
12:22 < sipa> hmm     
12:22 < sipa> which is something you'd do anyway for the new fallback strategy anyway?
12:22 < achow101> yes     
12:22 < sipa> gotcha
12:23 < achow101> I started working on using random selection as a fallback here: https://github.com/achow101/bitcoin/tree/srd-fallback
12:24 < sipa> ok     
12:24 < wumpus> nice
12:24 < sipa> thanks, that clarified things
12:24 < wumpus> ok, any other topics?
12:24 < morcos> one sec
12:25 < meshcollider> EOL date for 0.13 ( https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/528 )
12:25 < morcos> We have to as a project get on the same page for at least near term priorities on coin selection
12:25 < morcos> how do we weight privacy vs fee cost vs utxo set effects in aggregate
12:26 < luke-jr> users should get a choice per-tx ideally
12:26 < sipa> how do you even measure privacy?
12:26 < wumpus> #topic coin selection priorities
12:26 < morcos> previously we had said we can't worsen the overall utxo set effects, but this is a tough bar to meet given how "dumb" existing coin selection is
12:26 < sipa> without metric, there isn't even something to optimize for, even if we knew what we wanted
12:26 < wumpus> if possible we'd not want to reduce privacy at all
12:27 < luke-jr> sipa: ideally coinjoin everything with other users sending bitcoins at the same time. :p
12:27 < it-3276294625> I can write an bitcoin bruteforce generator
12:27 < morcos> well the question is, is it ok to make the coin selction consoldiate inputs less by default?  in exchange for perhaps increasing privacy and saving on fees?
12:27 < wumpus> luke-jr: he's talking about short-term
12:28 < morcos> my view, is that we shouldn't expect any wallet to do anything that is better for the local user, so if there is an aggregate net negative effect on the utxo
12:28 < luke-jr> morcos: depends on where you're sending them
12:28 < morcos> then that needs to be addressed with consensus costing changes in the long run (such as segwit)
12:28 < morcos> and we should give up trying to be overally globally nice at the expense of our own users in core
12:28 < morcos> for instance we currently spend non-economic inputs
12:29 < meshcollider> morcos: by consolidate less, you mean the total number would remain roughly the same? Or actively worsen
12:29 < luke-jr> consensus changes aren't that simple nor obvious
12:29 < morcos> meshcollider: i don't know... i don't trust the simulations that much, but it would be obvious from the algorithm that the utxo set growth by core wallets would be increased somewhat
12:29 < luke-jr> demurrage would probably make sense, but that would be so controversial it would never happen
12:30 < morcos> luke-jr: agreed, and we don't know now what the long term bottlenecks really are, so we couldn't even design the right answer , let alone implement it
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12:30 < it-3276294625> How bitcoin keygen is build , between what parameters
12:30 < sipa> it-3276294625: not now; we're in a meeting
12:30 < it-3276294625> Ok     
12:31 < wumpus> bitcoinwarezkeygencracker
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12:31  * Randolf laughs
12:31  * luke-jr would not be surprised if that was a thing.
12:31 < wumpus> #topic EOL date for 0.13 (meshcollider)
12:31 < morcos> if murchandamus were here, i think he'd say that of course nothing is going to be as good for the utxo set as the existing core algo.   my argument is therefore we should allow ourself to make it worse, since thats not what anyone would design from scratch
12:32 < it-3276294625> wumpus: steel not answering to my question :)) what are the parameters that the code is generated
12:32 < wumpus> it-3276294625: go away
12:32 < meshcollider> morcos: yeah I think most users are more concerned with the fees, they can consolidate inputs themselves when fees are low
12:32 < wumpus> morcos: sorry! thought the topic was over
12:33 -!- mode/#bitcoin-core-dev [+o sipa] by ChanServ     
12:33 < morcos> no problem
12:33 < meshcollider> But consolidation worsens the coin selection performance does it?
12:33 < morcos> meshcollider: yeah and i'm in favor building iin functionality to do that in core too...  we should try to make it easy to be a good utxo citizen
12:33 < jcorgan> a rigorous definition of "loss of privacy" would go a long way toward being able to measure it
12:33 < morcos> meshcollider: what do you mean by performance?
12:33 < achow101> morcos: less utxo's make BnB less effective
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12:34 < meshcollider> How well it can select inputs, a larger variety of inputs improves the selection doesn't it?
12:34 < morcos> achow101: well, we disagree on how much difference BnB makes.  i think exact matches are rare enough that trying to improve their frequency is a neglible effect
12:34 -!- mode/#bitcoin-core-dev [-o sipa] by sipa     
12:34 < sipa> morcos: in high-fee times i think they matter a lot, no?
12:34 < morcos> exact matches?
12:35 < sipa> within a window of the cost of creating change, yes
12:36 < morcos> i think they are still rare, but unforutnately neither of us have any data, b/c we dont know what core txs are from big wallets and what are from small
12:36 < sipa> fair
12:36 < morcos> but sure, i mean all you are arguing is maybe loosening consolidation isn't making things as bad as i'm saying
12:36 < morcos> great
12:37 < morcos> it sounds like we're mostly in agreement we can move in this direction, just not #reckless ly
12:37 < luke-jr> maybe we could have an opt-in statistics report at some point? just with the "exact match found? y/n" and vague wallet classifications?
12:37 < Randolf> luke-jr:  That's an interesting idea.
12:38 < meshcollider> "Bitcoin core would like to collect and share anonymous usage data with the developers"
12:38 < morcos> luke-jr: i certainly think that would be useful, but who would trust that
12:38 < luke-jr> delayed randomly to prevent fingerprinting
12:38 < meshcollider> Heh     
12:38 < luke-jr> morcos: design it so the data can be public without revealing anything dangerous
12:38 < morcos> and next thing you know we're being subpoenaed for it
12:38 < morcos> perhaps
12:38 < Randolf> morcos:  I think a lot of users probably would use that feature.  I would because I'd see it as a way to support the future development of Bitcoin.
12:38 < achow101> luke-jr: make it so public that everything is publicly logged
12:39 < meshcollider> It'd be cool if it just wrote to a data file in the directory so they could just upload that file if they want to help
12:39 < morcos> yeah taht would be the only way
12:39 < luke-jr> achow101: yeah, we could literally have a site with all data received
12:39 < sipa> i'd be against that
12:40 < luke-jr> which part?
12:40 < sipa> having a single site that collecta data
12:40 < wumpus> would definitely be against automatic uploading
12:40 < Randolf> meshcollider:  I don't like that -- people should be asked first.  The problem is that spyware could copy such a file.
12:40 < cfields> if nothing else, seems the data would be skewed against the privacy metric anyway?
12:40 < sipa> cfields: right
12:40 < jcorgan> some ideas are just better left unexplored
12:41 < meshcollider> Ok are we moving to next topic now?
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12:42 < Randolf> sipa:  Decentralized would certainly be better.
12:42 < meshcollider> Just a quick one, to discuss the EOL date for 0.13 since the lifecycle page on bitcoincore.org needs an update
12:42 < meshcollider> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/528
12:42 < morcos> ready to move on
12:42 < Randolf> meshcollider:  I think the date suggested there is reasonable.
12:42 < luke-jr> I still use 0.13 for my cold wallet, but I'm not willing to commit to maintaining it
12:43 < MarcoFalke> It is already unmaintained
12:43 < wumpus> meshcollider: looks good to me
12:44 < meshcollider> Sweet, jnewbery just wanted to have it discussed here
12:44 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: then it shouldbe a past date
12:44 < meshcollider> luke-jr: there are 2 dates
12:44 < MarcoFalke> ^     
12:44 < meshcollider> One is end of maintenance, the other is full EOL
12:44 < luke-jr> I know
12:45 < meshcollider> Ok that's that then. Any other topics?
12:45 < wumpus> right, maintenance means that there could be general bugfix releases on that branch, EOL means even cricitcal security patches won't be backported to that
12:46 < luke-jr> which is what I was referring to anyway
12:46 < achow101> i think luke-jr is saying that 0.13 is already past EOL
12:46 < jnewbery> date seems fine to me. Is there any convention we use to set the EOL date?
12:46 < Randolf> achow101:  Then perhaps the EOL date should be changed to today?
12:46 < wumpus> +/- a year after end maintenance
12:47 < meshcollider> Note that 0.12 EOL was only 3 weeks ago
12:47 < luke-jr> achow101: well, that depends on the rest of you all; if someone will backport critical fixes..
12:47 < luke-jr> I just meant that I'm not willing to commit to doing it longer ☺
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12:49 < wumpus> me neither
12:49 < wumpus> any other topics?
12:49 < achow101> luke-jr: I doubt there will be anything that requires another 0.13 release in the next 4 months anyways
12:50 < MarcoFalke> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blame/f686002a8eba820a40ac2f34a6e8f57b2b5cc54c/doc/release-process.md#L297 could be modified to include "Update https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/blob/master/_includes/posts/_maintenance-table.md"
12:51 < achow101> while we're talking about this, maybe we should also set 0.14's EOL date
12:52 < meshcollider> Feb 1 2019?
12:52 < jnewbery> meshcollider: +1
12:52 < Randolf> achow101:  This starts to venture into another question:  How many previous versions should be supported/non-EOL?
12:53 < Randolf> Should there be a maximum number?
12:53 < jcorgan> said number would be dynamic an depend entirely on the willingness of volunteers to do it
12:53 < achow101> Randolf: IIRC we always did current, previous as maintenance, and one before that critical updates only
12:54 < luke-jr> Randolf: all depends on what developers are willing to maintain
12:54 < luke-jr> several years ago, I maintained some versions for years
12:55 < wumpus> also depends on the scope of the problem, if it's a simple backport, it's easy to roll another 0.13 version anyway, if it takes a full-on refactor first, no one will likely bother
12:55 < jcorgan> if there were an user/organization that was dependent upon security and/or bug fixes in an older, unmaintained version, they could certainly pay industry rates to a competent person to do so
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12:55 < luke-jr> jcorgan: +1
12:55 < Randolf> luke-jr++
12:56 < sipa> (luke) - (jr++) ?
12:56 < Randolf> wumpus:  I can see that if it's a major job, the recommendation will be to upgrade to a newer version anyway.
12:56 < wumpus> Randolf: yes
12:56 < luke-jr> sipa: lol
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12:57 < jcorgan> the issue would come up with someone who maintains and uses a modified branch 
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12:57 < jcorgan> it might be easier to pay someone to backport something than to try to roll their changes forward
12:57 < luke-jr> depends on what it is
12:57 < jcorgan> sure
12:58 < Randolf> sipa:  I'm used to the karma bot in the #perl channel.  :)
12:58 < achow101> on a semi-related note, should we remove the branches for EOL versions
12:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jimpo opened pull request #12760: Docs: Improve documentation on standard communication channels. (master...communication-channels) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12760
12:58 < wumpus> achow101: probably
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12:59 < wumpus> has been a while since I last cleaned up branches
13:00 < sipa> PLOINK
13:00 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:00 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 22 20:00:09 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-03-22-19.00.html
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-03-22-19.00.txt
13:00 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-03-22-19.00.log.html
13:00 < luke-jr> sipa lays down the time limit
13:00 < luke-jr> heading home, this worked out well; bbl
13:00 < Randolf> Take care luke-jr.
13:01 < Randolf> Good day to everyone.  That seemed to be a very productive meeting.
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13:01 < wumpus> later
13:01 < achow101> wumpus: merge #12694
13:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:01 < achow101> ?     
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13:02 < wumpus> yes     
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13:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f686002a8eba...9552dfb1f632
13:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6ef9982 Andrew Chow: Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs...
13:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 081bf54 Andrew Chow: Test that BnB is not used when there are preset inputs
13:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9552dfb Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12694: Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs...
13:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12694: Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs (master...fix-preset-coins-bnb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12694
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13:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9552dfb1f632...cead84b72d27
13:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 045eeb8 Russell Yanofsky: Rename account to label where appropriate...
13:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d2527bd Russell Yanofsky: Rename wallet_accounts.py test...
13:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cead84b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11536: Rename account to label where appropriate...
13:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11536: Rename account to label where appropriate (master...pr/acct) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11536
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14:14 < justin__> any reason not to further lower relay fee even 1 sat/byte seems expensive nowadays or am I just cheap? :P
14:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #12757: Clarify include guard naming convention (master...include-guard) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12757
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14:47 < luke-jr> justin__: any lower probably won't get relayed, but off-topic here.
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18:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #12762: Make CKeyStore an interface (master...2018-03-keystore) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12762
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21:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] JeremyRubin opened pull request #12763: Add RPC Whitelist Feature from #12248 (master...whitelistrpc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12763
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22:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] conscott opened pull request #12764: Remove field in getblocktemplate help that has never been used.  (master...remove_unused_gbt_field) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12764
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