--- Log opened Wed Sep 12 00:00:07 2018
00:01 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: re special opcodes, think of it as pay-to-contract, but with the contract separate and updatable? (and people can always opt not to use the special opcodes if they want to share a key)
00:02 < sipa_> what's the point?
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00:03 < luke-jr> the whole purpose of (the current) signed messages is to verify the [future] recipient of a payment agrees to terms before making the payment
00:03 < luke-jr> I don't see how using a separate key hurts that at all
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00:05 < sipa_> i must be missing something, but what is being proven, if it's not the same key?
00:05 < luke-jr> that the recipient agrees to some terms
00:06 < sipa_> but how do you know it's the recipient?
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00:06 < luke-jr> because it's the address you're paying
00:07 < sipa_> i'm very confused
00:07 < sipa_> i'll read the ML posts later :)
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00:07 < kallewoof> sipa_: No one is responding on the ML unfortunately, but there are comments on the PR
00:08 < kallewoof> To be honest, I get more confused as time passes. I didn't realize there were so many different opinions on so many aspects of this.
00:08 < luke-jr> :/
00:09 < sipa_> kallewoof: yeah, don't bring works in progress to the ML, you'll just get bikeshedding and design by committee :)
00:10 < kallewoof> lol
00:11 < kallewoof> I think I'll make a section describing how to convert to/from transaction pair format and then let implementers choose whether they go the optional step. That would give them  the ability to pass onto set-in-stone HSM:s.
00:12 < sipa_> also don't have optional features that you aren't sure when people would use them :_
00:13 < sipa_> they don't know better than you 
00:14 < kallewoof> Optional features, like the transaction pair conversion? It seems like it could be useful for some people, considering like... 4-5 people have already said they would prefer it to be IN that format.
00:14 < kallewoof> (and an equal amount of people have said they prefer it wasn't)
00:15 < sipa_> meh
00:15 < sipa_> make a choice
00:15 < kallewoof> Fair enough.
00:16 < sipa_> if you can't write explicit advice "in case A, you should use this, otherwise you should use that", it shouldn't be an optional feature
00:18  * sipa_ zZzZ
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00:28 < aj> kallewoof: solvency proofs are "all my debts are in this merkle tree, whose total value is X; here's proof of funds of value Y; Y >= X" possibly with some zkp magic to avoid revealing X or Y. https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/abstracts/provisions.html
00:29 < kallewoof> aj: Nice. Thanks, will read
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01:32 < wumpus> c++ shouldn't need ? 1 : 0 for booleans, right?
01:34 < wumpus> e.g. a bool will always coerce to either 0 or 1
01:36 < aj> wumpus: yeah, https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/implicit_conversion ("Integral promotion" section)
01:37 < wumpus> ok there's some discussion about this in #14195 (which solves an actual issue as well, but also adds this confusion)
01:37 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14195 | fix export privkey der always compressed by fingera · Pull Request #14195 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
01:37 < wumpus> but good to hear I didn't make this up :)
01:41 < aj> it's a clang readability warning... https://clang.llvm.org/extra/clang-tidy/checks/readability-implicit-bool-conversion.html
01:41 < wumpus> I don't think the added compexity really makes it more readable
01:42 < wumpus> let's type more to make the compiler happy
01:43 < wumpus> aanyhow I'll tell him to squash it and we can merge it, no need to get held up on this, though I do think practicalswift is kind of going too far here in seeding confusion
01:44 < aj> seems like ec_privkey_export_der should be accepting a bool rather than an int anyway?
01:45 < wumpus> unfortunately secp256k1 lives in 1989, booleans weren't invented back then
01:46 < aj> ... it's in src/key.cpp as well as secp256k1/ ?
01:46 < aj> i'm confused :(
01:46 < wumpus> it's calling a secp256k1 function right? or not?
01:47 < wumpus> no, I'm sure I'm confused
01:47 < aj> i think it's cut and pasted from secp256k1 into src/key.cpp and marked as static?
01:47 < wumpus> AhhhAHHhahHa
01:51 < wumpus> you're completely right: there is a ec_privkey_export_der function in secp256k1, but it is not used by us, we have our own version
01:52 < wumpus> which could, if we're willing to diverge from upstream take an ActuallyBool
01:54 < wumpus> (we have already diverged from upstream in some regards, in 63179d028347bf3e32c7ea61386df4c44307b4a7)
01:54 < aj> we've already diverged in a few trivial ways, more so for the _import_der version
01:54 < wumpus> yep !
01:58 < wumpus> changing the argument to bool is the most sensible solution, suggested it in the PR
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04:17 < wumpus> - #12283 `1b06ed1` Fix typos (practicalswift) - #12393 `108af52` Fix a-vs-an typos (practicalswift) - #12543 `480f426` Fix typos (practicalswift) - #12747 `2b1c50b` Fix typos (practicalswift) - #13069 `472fe8a` Fix typos (practicalswift) - #13052 `5713994` Fix relevent typo (practicalswift)
04:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12283 | Fix typos by practicalswift · Pull Request #12283 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12393 | Fix a-vs-an typos by practicalswift · Pull Request #12393 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12543 | Fix typos by practicalswift · Pull Request #12543 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13069 | docs: Fix typos by practicalswift · Pull Request #13069 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12747 | Fix typos by practicalswift · Pull Request #12747 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13052 | trivial: Fix relevent typo by practicalswift · Pull Request #13052 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:17 < wumpus> how many typos fixes do we nee din a release, sigh
04:18 < wumpus> whoops didn't mean to trigger the bot
04:36 < wumpus> I've added the list of pulls and authors to: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/0.17.0-Release-notes
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05:10 < Jmabsd> Where in Bitcoin's source code is the TxFee estimation logics for when planning to make a transaction?
05:12 < wumpus> src/policy/fees.cpp mainly
05:14 < Jmabsd> Thanks!
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06:00 < echeveria>   
06:00 < Jmabsd> wumpus: do you know how the fee estimations are estimated?   the code goes something like ""a 60% threshold required at target / 2, an 85% threshold required at target and a 95% threshold required at 2 * target ... Conservative estimates, however, required the 95% threshold at 2 * target", so, there are three different algorithms running, i don't understand the sense
06:09 < wumpus> fee estimation is indeed very complicated
06:09 < wumpus> I don't know all the details either
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06:23 < wumpus> this is the right place to ask specific questions about the code though, though I'll likely not be able to answer them, someone else might...
06:25 < aj> https://bitcointechtalk.com/an-introduction-to-bitcoin-core-fee-estimation-27920880ad0 might be a good place to start
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08:58 < wumpus> yes that's a good overview
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13:20 < instagibbs> quick N(ACK)s please: hidden(?) RPC calls exposing compact blocks work flow. We have use in Elements/Liquid for passing blocks around the federation outside of p2p.
13:20 < instagibbs> (N)ACKs* :)
13:21 < gmaxwell> so you want basically a GETCOMPACTBLOCK and a SUBMITCOMPACTBLOCK?
13:21 < instagibbs> ~much yeah
13:21 < andytoshi> also a way to get tx indices
13:21 < andytoshi> missing tx indices*
13:21 < instagibbs> andytoshi, that message already exists 
13:22 < andytoshi> oh ok ignore me
13:22 < instagibbs> and "consume" compact block, which returns the indices, then responding to getblocktxn, yada
13:23 < gmaxwell> I don't see any harm in it. I'm not sure if it would have much use, the json serialization/deserialization is going to be slow, perhaps slow enough that this wouldn't be interesting for anyone to build alternative transports.  Might it be more interesting to have a hidden generic RPC that lets you send any P2P message?
13:23 < instagibbs> I'll take that as 0+ :P
13:24 < gmaxwell> yea, it's a 0+
13:24 < andytoshi> hmm actually a hidden generic RPC would be better imho
13:24 < instagibbs> andytoshi, seems useful overall, I'd have to think about our application a bit more
13:24 < instagibbs> i'll take a swing at it
13:24 < gmaxwell> I'm not opposed it it but skeptical that its all that useful for bitcoin in general. I suggested the generic because I could imagine more uses for that. (even if just test shims)
13:25 < andytoshi> this isn't the first time i've considered connecting to p2p alongside rpc to get extra stuff
13:25 < instagibbs> one * is that we're passing unsigned blocks(kalle's signet may also want something like this)
13:25 < instagibbs> which means it'll fail PoW checks
13:25 < gmaxwell> Oh I see, you actually want to use compact blocks for pre-pow blocks.
13:25 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ^ this might be relevant to your interests too.
13:26 < gmaxwell> (as matt's mining protocol work also exchanges not-pow-valid-blocks)
13:26 < sipa> andytoshi: there may be good reasons to do so; p2p is far more optimized than rpc
13:26 < gmaxwell> in general passing through the json is going to hurt performance alone.
13:29 < BlueMatt> instagibbs: I dont think the compact block protocol makes sense for low-bandwidth relay outside of p2p
13:30 < BlueMatt> oh, wait, scratch that, I was thinking the wrong direction
13:32 < BlueMatt> that said, I'm with gmaxwell, I'm skeptical anyone would use it, because its round-trip-required its not really gonna be all that much better for most use-cases
13:33 < BlueMatt> eg if you're in a protocol where one side is pushing out to multiple clients it doesnt make any sense, and doesn't make any sense for unidirectional things ala blocksat
13:34 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well in the one side pushing, much more efficient things are possible but compact blocks already exists and is at least a large constant factor better than sending out the whole block.
13:35 < BlueMatt> you misunderstood my point there, by "one side pushing" i meant any unidirectional comms
13:35 < BlueMatt> eg blocksat, betterhash effecient block relay, etc
13:35 < BlueMatt> or weak block style things
13:37 < gmaxwell> yea, okay, sure, but unidirectional is kind of a special case. The betterhash thing could support round trips, no?
13:38 < BlueMatt> well round trips means bad performance if you're mega-latency-sensitive
13:39 < BlueMatt> so betterhash *could* (with more complication of an already-overcomplicated-protocol imo), but then you'd break anything like running betterhash over quic to get low-latency
13:39 < gmaxwell> fair point. Right your current weak block thing still gets guarenteed no RT. 
13:39 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: s/latency sensitive/latency sensitive OR on very high latency links/
13:39 < BlueMatt> yea
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13:41 < jarthur> Would Lightning Network watchtowers have such a use-case?
13:42 < gmaxwell> I'm not aware of lightning watchtowers relaying bitcoin blocks.
13:42 < BlueMatt> yea, I dont see why that would be needed?
13:42 < jarthur> Yea, n/m, my mind is in the pre-conf realm.
13:43 < BlueMatt> I'm not aware of any lightning watchtowers.
13:43 < BlueMatt> but, yea, instagibbs, I cant say I'm a fan of putting it in the rpc, just seems like vaguely-useless-features that no one will use
13:43 < BlueMatt> but otoh I'd doubt its *much* code, so whatever
13:44 < gmaxwell> ^ yea my view too.
13:44 < BlueMatt> I do plan on putting some able-to-support-compact-encodings-ala-betterhash into core prs soonish, though, cause betterhash needs it
13:44 < gmaxwell> alternatively, if there are refactors that would make it easier for you to carry a patch, those would probably be more interesting.
13:44 < BlueMatt> but I dont think thats really that related
13:44 < instagibbs> alright im -0 it myself, we'll just carry it
13:45 < instagibbs> no biggie, thanks for the input
13:45 < jarthur> There has been a trend of "personal stratum daemon"s recently, that don't use txindex, might they benefit from such an RPC call?
13:45 < gmaxwell> again same question as watchtowers, why would they be relaying blocks to other nodes?
13:50 < jarthur> No, but if you took out the stratum daemon, and wanted to just use Core for this purpose, and your light-wallet spoke the language, might there be some benefit from you getting your tx history knowledge in this fashion?
13:50 < gmaxwell> No.
13:50 < jarthur> I guess making the light wallet speak p2p is just as good?
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13:57 < gmaxwell> jarthur: I'm not sure about what parts of the above we read, but we were talking about compact blocks which are _utterly_ useless to litewallets.
13:57 < gmaxwell> They're only potentially useful to full nodes.
14:05 < jarthur> Cool, sorry, didn't think it through.
14:14 < phantomcircuit> i cant decide between setting up Register/Unregister calls for poll/select or replicating the existing logic and setting up the structures every call
14:15 < phantomcircuit> the event(ish) based thing is easier to make a mistake with but setting up all the structures is potentially expensive with many peers
14:21 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: what is easier for people to review and get merged?
14:21 < gmaxwell> even if we go with something slower, it can be optimized later.
14:22 < gmaxwell> and I doubt anything 'slow' is going to matter with just 125 peers...
14:23 < phantomcircuit> rebuilding the structure... maybe?
14:24 < phantomcircuit> the logic about whether to set the send/recv flag is surprisingly not trivial so that kind of makes it harder
14:24  * phantomcircuit goes off to see
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17:42 < pierre_rochard> ken2812221: I took a look at #14007 in bitcoinacks.com, I wasn't picking up "tack" or "re-ack" in my parser, that's fixed now. Please don't hesitate to file an issue or PM me if you notice inconsistencies, I do want this to be a reliable tool
17:42 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14007 | tests: Run functional test on Windows and enable it on Appveyor by ken2812221 · Pull Request #14007 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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21:12 < kallewoof> jimpo: reading https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/725#pullrequestreview-154741923 it looks like you're suggesting the proof of funds should be a (fakeish) transaction, and the messsage signing should not be. Am I understanding that right? If so, it seems like you could just do transaction in both cases to simplify the spec. I.e. for signing message, craft two txs with the latter spending the former and former using 
21:12 < kallewoof> scriptPubKey of proof
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23:08 < jimpo> kallewoof: What about the data being signed? If I wanted you to sign an arbitrary message, would it be in an OP_RETURN or something?
23:09 < kallewoof> jimpo: for proof of funds? I am thinking there'd be a txin with prevout=<sighash> and n=0 or something (where <sighash> includes the message)
23:09 < kallewoof> you meant for signmessage, actually. same thing though.
23:09 < jimpo> Yeah, I think you're understanding me right. But I'm suggesting using the fake transaction to generate the sighash, but as for as actual RPC messages and payloads and stuff, end users would just interact with the proof container, not the transaction itself.
23:10 < kallewoof> right
23:10 < jimpo> :-/ For sign message, that just seems overcomplicated
23:10 < kallewoof> I have already had people object to signmessage being a transaction for UI reasons (e.g. the trezor people).
23:11 < jimpo> manufacturing a tx for proof of funds makes sense to me because you are saying that this transaction with these already exiting UTXOs could actually exist
23:11 < kallewoof> Right.
23:11 < jimpo> but for sign message, manufacturing two dummy transactions seems very artificial and I don't see the benefit
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23:12 < kallewoof> The only benefit would be in that the two protocols "meet up" after the custom tx creation point. It's not a big deal IMO.
23:13 < jimpo> Yeah, I see them meeting up at the sighash point :-)
23:14 < kallewoof> I should probably write the code for this to geta better idea for what is actually necessary.
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