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06:36 < wumpus> meshcollider: thanks!
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07:19 < wumpus> can we have some review on #14955 please? :$
07:19 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14955 | Switch all RNG code to the built-in PRNG by sipa · Pull Request #14955 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:25 < instagibbs> wumpus, it's kind of scary material to review imo
07:25 < instagibbs> but i can at least read it 
07:26 < instagibbs> err wait, maybe this is different one, nvm
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07:29 < wumpus> instagibbs: that's why I request reviews on it, the worst-case scenario to review for would be loss of randomness for wallet key generation
07:31 < wumpus> for the rest, randomness is used for DoS avoidance in P2P code and unordered_map hashing and such; would be bad if it breaks, but not as disastrous ast ehe ffect on the wallet
07:32 < sipa> as a reviewer you probably want to reason through what happens in a call to GetStrongRandBytes
07:32 < sipa> to see that all those randomness sources are actually affecting the output
07:33 < instagibbs> I've done that historically at least, I'll take a look
07:37 < wumpus> instagibbs: thanks!
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07:54 < promag> wumpus: nit, don't mind my nits
07:56 < wumpus> promag: I agree; we waited a few days for the author to update for it, but if they don't, let's just merge imo
07:59 < wumpus> especially as it's a new contributor
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08:38 < wumpus> lol @ amount of bikeshedding in #15127
08:38 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15127 | docs: Clarifying testing instructions by benthecarman · Pull Request #15127 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
08:38 < wumpus> (FWIW I think this is good, if you really have to file a single-line change to the documentation, be prepared to get a lot of review on it :-) )
08:39 < sipa> yeah...
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10:23 < provoostenator> sipa: sounds like a good opportunity to read up on some C++ concepts, added to my review list. At least it compiles on macOS and two new wallets don't get the same address :-)
10:24 < sipa> provoostenator: unfortunately, the class of likely bugs in a system like this will not result in duplicate randomness, but just predictable one (for example, the Debian OpenSSL bug from a few years ago resulted in randomness with a bit over 16 bits of entropy, meaning you'd still need to observe 1000s to observe anything bad)
10:25 < provoostenator> Indeed, touching this code is scary. But is waiting for the next OpenSSL drama I guess?
10:26 < provoostenator> *so is
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10:26 < sipa> i think at this point we're already not relying on openssl for much except belt and suspenders
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10:30 < gmaxwell> [ignoring BIP70] Now we're just stuck issuing new binaries the next time there is some zomg panic about openssl because we statically link to it.
10:31 < sipa> yup
10:31 < sipa> i think i would describe our openssl dependency as annoying, so we'd like to get rid of it - but there isn't any specific pressing reason to do so
10:36 < gmaxwell> via bip 70 though it could actually introduce vulnerabilities, though thats really a question about getting rid of bip70, not openssl.
10:36 < provoostenator> BIP70 is depreacted so depending on when disaster happens, we could then just ship a new binary with OpenSSL removed.
10:36 < gmaxwell> yea, if anyone has any funds left after. :)
10:42 < cjd> is it common to connect nodes holding money to the public network ?   I assumed that by now everyone was using a guard node which relayed for their LAN
10:45 < gmaxwell> cjd: they should be but my expirence is that almost no one does... the resource usage of doing so is quite considerable.
10:45 < cjd> ahh ok
10:45 < gmaxwell> Also BIP70s implementation inherently had to be run from a wallet.
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10:46 < gmaxwell> My statement was mostly hyperbole, but had an underlying point that "wait until it fails" isn't a great move. :P
10:47 < cjd> hm, lightning network is going to create some pressure to run big money on network-connected servers
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13:50 < gkrizek> wumpus: Are you able to still see the configuration for the IRC GitHub Service? I'm working on a replacement, but I'm not sure what the events were it would comment about in here .
13:55 < gkrizek> Seems like it was push to any branch, PR open, close, merge.
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14:18 < echeveria> gmaxwell: sipa: bip70 could kinda be a different binary at this point, but I don't think it's level of use justifies any sort of investment in development. 
14:20 < echeveria> if this was my software I'd be putting a bounty in the bip70 payment window to see if anybody notices it. you found the secret bit! send a letter to this address and we'll mail you a prize!
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14:22 < gmaxwell> yea, I think bip70 as an external program would be nice, except no one cares about it...
14:22 < gmaxwell> it always should have been done that way.
14:23 < gmaxwell> I even went and tried to break it out at one point, but it was implemented with QT crap... (which is stupid, the external program could operate just as a commandline tool, ...)
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14:27 < promag> provoostenator: not sure if I understand your comment https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15084#pullrequestreview-190732482
14:27 < promag> provoostenator: you agree with what?
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14:34 < promag> big lag with github emails?
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15:19 < fanquake> yes
15:22 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, as far as i know literally only bitpay uses bip70
15:23 < phantomcircuit> i've never seen it used anywhere else
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15:37 < roasbeef> coinbase too maybe? 
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15:41 < jarthur> Stripe had thrown its support in, prior to taking a break from Bitcoin point of sale.
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15:53 < luke-jr> phantomcircuit: BitPay isn't even BIP70-compatible
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15:55 < gmaxwell> roasbeef: they support it but unclear how much they use it...
15:55 < gmaxwell> like they spent more than half a year with their cert expired...
15:55 < roasbeef> luke-jr: orly? iirc they enforce it and there's no other way to pay them other than via bip70
15:55 < roasbeef> heh
15:56 < gmaxwell> roasbeef: their bip70 violates the spec and can't be used with bitcoin core regardless.
15:56 < luke-jr> roasbeef: iirc it "works" but it violates spec
15:57 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: why can't it be?
15:57 < luke-jr> last time I used bitpay, it worked..
15:57 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: because if they see the txn first they abort the payment, or at least they were a couple months ago.
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15:57 < gmaxwell> Last time I tried they just aborted the payment.
15:57 < luke-jr> O.o
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15:58 < gmaxwell> I guess it's hard to say exactly what they do because they can change... :)
15:58 < luke-jr> I think it's been over a year since I last used it, so..
15:58 < gmaxwell> In any case they 'require' non-conforming behavior, and what they require introduces vulnerablities. :(
15:58 < gmaxwell> Which is just fucked, because the thing they _want_ is what sipa fought for with gavin and eventually burned out advocating.
15:59 < gmaxwell> Unfortunately, bitpay didn't think through the implications of just dumbly grafting it on.
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16:07 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, wait they cancel a invoice if the transaction reaches them over the network first?
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16:07 < gmaxwell> Yes, they did to me and other people at the time were reporting it too.
16:07 < gmaxwell> Maybe they since stopped? if so then I'm out of date.
16:08 < phantomcircuit> that's crazy
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16:09 < echeveria> phantomcircuit: they want to be able to selectively abort client payments.
16:09 < echeveria> this is doable if they really wanted to within another protocol, but would need to have the client doing partial signatures, and them filling validity with another signature of their own input to the payment. 
16:10 < gmaxwell> BIP70 could have been defined that way, varrious people advocated for it.
16:11 < gmaxwell> But doing that correctly is harder for the wallet, since it needs to track UTXO as 'I signed for this, but it hasn't been broadcast yet'.
16:11 < gmaxwell> At the time BIP70 was written, the only 'used' metric bitcoin core really had was "spent by the mempool"
16:11 < luke-jr> maybe someone should get this in the Bustapay stuff
16:11 < phantomcircuit> echeveria, oooh
16:12 < phantomcircuit> they want to be able to blacklist utxo entries
16:12 < phantomcircuit> got it
16:12 < echeveria> gmaxwell: I don't think it's very user friendly to have that as a system though. you end up with ambiguity, I've paid someone with this output, and they may actually spend it sometime in the future, or not.
16:13 < luke-jr> if you're not careful, it locks your change too
16:13 < echeveria> I guess have a timeout in the script that means your partial signature is only valid for x hours or something, but even so. with most wallets tending towards having absolutely no logic in them this seems like a non-starter. 
16:13 < luke-jr> echeveria: Bitcoin intentionally doesn't support such timeouts
16:15 < gmaxwell> you 'time it out' by double spending it.
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16:15 < gmaxwell> What I think the wallet should do is track pending spends, and eventually intentionally double spend them if they 'timeout'
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16:15 < gmaxwell> probably by just including them in a future transaction post timeout.
16:16 < gmaxwell> and also show a 'pending balance', so it's clear that a wallet with pending spends isn't 'empty'
16:16 < gmaxwell> But... yea, it's a non-zero amount of work.
16:16 < luke-jr> especially when you consider Lightning, I bet :p
16:17 < gmaxwell> But what bitpay wants people to do is just busted.
16:17 < gmaxwell> like they want to be able to say 'payment rejected, try again with more fee'  but then no effort at all to doublespend the prior payments.
16:17 < gmaxwell> and no indication in the wallet that you've potentially double paid them.
16:17 < luke-jr> those seem like wallet-side decisions
16:18 < gmaxwell> so days, months, or even years later,  you might have a whole bunch of bitpay payments go through twice..
16:18 < gmaxwell> They are but they need to be part of any BIP70 alternative that doesn't immediately broadcast txn.
16:18 < gmaxwell> As in the spec needs to advise sensible behavior, and wallets _must_ implement somethign sensible or they create security vulnerabilities.
16:19 < gmaxwell> at a minimum if a payment is rejected and needs to be reissued, the wallet must doublespend the original one.
16:20 < gmaxwell> (and since there is bidi communication, there is really no reason that a request couldn't be rejected before a signed copy is even sent... but thats another matter)
16:20 < echeveria> and handle when someone refuses to do the double spend with their hardware wallet. 
16:21 < gmaxwell> the double spend can at least be avoided all togeather in the common case.
16:21 < gmaxwell> echeveria: right or with a third party anti-doublespend signer.
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16:22 < echeveria> ends up being a rather unfortunate amount of logic in the wallet. 
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16:23 < gmaxwell> right and a bunch of it is tricky, which is why I think it's important that a spec that makes you do this tricky thing at least warn you about the stuff you need to consider.
16:23 < gmaxwell> otherwise it would be like a ecdsa spec that just said nothing about where you're supposted to get this nonce value. "Nonce? that means used once. I'll just use a counter."
16:29 < ap4lmtree-> any of you take free online classes, such as through coursera ?
16:30 < ap4lmtree-> they have some cs and every other field courses
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16:46 < gwillen> ap4lmtree-: not sure how on-topic this is here, but fwiw the Coursera Crypto I class by Dan Boneh is very good
16:46 < phantomcircuit> wumpus, btw i dont have fuzzing.tar.xz anywhere so that can definitely be removed
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17:00 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the idea that the remote end is going to reject a payment is crazy town
17:01 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I don't think it is? like at least it's not unreasonable for the remote end to ignore your unconfirmed payment unless it has some minimum feerate.
17:03 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's not unreasonable to ignore you until it confirms
17:03 < phantomcircuit> then what
17:04 < gmaxwell> right, sure, but assuming you wanted it to not be ignored until them, you would have appricated the oppturnity to make a different txn.
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17:07 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i guess what im saying is that rejecting an unsigned transaction makes sense, but rejecting one that's signed and broadcast?
17:08 < phantomcircuit> once it's confirmed it's confirmed
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17:08 < gmaxwell> well thats why they want you to submit the transaction directly instead of broadcasting.
17:11 < phantomcircuit> but it's signed why should you trust them not to broadcast it themselves
17:12 < gmaxwell> You shouldn't. They might. Which is why you need to handle it correctly.
17:13 < gmaxwell> E.g. if they reject it and your response is to resign e.g. with more fee, you need to make sure you doublespend it... e.g. same as if you'd feebumped in the UI.
17:13 < gmaxwell> which sounds obnoxious, but its not bad considering that feebumping is already an existing and pretty desirable feature.
17:15 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it seems more like you want a list of "payments im trying to make" and have the wallet ensure any new transaction invalidates anything that doesn't pay to that set
17:15 < gmaxwell> Maybe, though you don't really want to invalidate a payment that the recipent is already trying to CPFP unless asked to do so.
17:16 < wumpus> phantomcircuit: no problem, that whole section can be removed, the fuzzing corpus is going to move to a separate repository
17:19 < wumpus> gkrizek: there's not that much configuration; server is chat.freenode.net port is 6697, room is "#bitcoin-commits,#bitcoin-core-dev", nick is "bitcoin-git", branches is "master,0.11,0.12,0.13,0.14,0.15,0.16,0.17"
17:20 < wumpus> gkrizek: password and nickserv password is not filled in, Ssl is checked, Long url is checked, the other checkboxes are not
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17:26 < ap4lmtree-> gmaxwell, okay ill check it out
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18:19 < gkrizek> wumpus: Ok, thanks! Are we cool with keeping that the same?  Send a message when pushes happen to those branches and when PRs are open/closed/merged/reopened? I can add or remove whatever we want
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