--- Log opened Fri May 10 00:00:10 2019
00:14 < jonasschnelli> sipa: Oh. I wasn't aware importmulti does not support private keys through descriptors...
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00:20 < jonasschnelli> We don't even mention this in the importmulti help (that private key based descriptors silently "ignore" the privkeys)?
00:20 < gwillen> I believe this is what #15414 fixes
00:20 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15414 | [wallet] allow adding pubkeys from imported private keys to keypool by Sjors · Pull Request #15414 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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00:21 < gwillen> oh, that might be the wrong PR
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00:21 < gwillen> I meant #15024
00:21 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15024 | Allow specific private keys to be derived from descriptor by meshcollider · Pull Request #15024 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
00:22 < gwillen> which is in the high priority list
00:26 < jonasschnelli> Yes. I see. But maybe we should add something to the importmulti help (and backport)
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00:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/79046d574980...695141bf7a32
00:27 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2bc2b8b Jonas Schnelli: Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR)
00:27 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2dfe275 Jonas Schnelli: Add ChaCha20 bench
00:27 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 695141b Jonas Schnelli: Merge #15512: Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR)
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00:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli merged pull request #15512: Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR) (master...2019/03/chacha) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15512
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01:04 < tryphe> anyone know if -addnode connections count towards the total of maxconnections? no, right?
01:08 < gmaxwell> tryphe: max connections, yes, but not your outbound connections
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01:10 < gmaxwell> Why?
01:10 < wumpus> yes, maxconnections is a hard limit (to be able to limit memory and file descriptor usage), there should be no way to exceed it
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01:13 < tryphe> gmaxwell, i'm about to open a PR that addresses a bug and has some logic fixes but i'm unsure about a small part of it, in terms of the "minimum" number of file handles we should request in terms of addnode/outbound/feeler connections. MAX_ADDNODE_CONNECTIONS + MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS + feelers = 8 + 8 + 1, but i'm not sure if that should be the minimum for -maxconnections. and if it shouldn't be, there's no way to lower those constants at 
01:13 < tryphe> the moment.
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01:18 < gmaxwell> tryphe: okay, reviewing the logic: reducing maxconnections can (if you set it low enough) reduce the outbound connections. But it doesn't reduce the addnode connections, because how would it decide how to split up the reduction.  Addnode connections are handled seperately for the FD limits.
01:18 < gmaxwell> tryphe: there probably doesn't need to be anything to lower the max addnodes: if you want fewer, add less addnodes.
01:21 < tryphe> gmaxwell, i just meant in determining a "soft cap" for the theoretical minimum number of handles that could be used in the normal daemon, 8+8+1 seems to be the answer there. ie. it's unknown at runtime whether the user will need it, but they might.
01:21 < wumpus> interesting, so maxconnections isn't really maxconnections
01:21 < gmaxwell> tryphe: if maxconnections is lowered one of those 8s will go down.
01:21 < tryphe> gmaxwell, and in this context i mean only handles for sockets
01:22 < wumpus> I think it used to be different, but no sure...
01:22 < tryphe> it got changed about a year ago with the new select() code i believe
01:22 < gmaxwell> wumpus: right, I'd forgotten about that. It's because if maxconnections is set lower than 16 how do would decide how to share with addnode? and addnodes can be limited by not using them.
01:22 < gmaxwell> wumpus: it was probably done by the change to make addnodes not use up the outbound connection slots.
01:23 < gmaxwell> (which made addnode unreliable, since outbounds would eat up all its slots)
01:23 < wumpus> gmaxwell: I would have expected addnode to fail at some point if it requests adding connections and there are no slots available, but I agree
01:23 < gmaxwell> it wasn't an unintentional change, I just didn't remember it.
01:23 < wumpus> addnode is always a manual action so if you run out of resources that way, it's your own fault
01:24 < tryphe> i'm not using addnode, i'm just asking for the bug's sake (you'll see in a second, hehe)
01:24 < tryphe> it probably needs some fixing
01:25 < gmaxwell> wumpus: right but the problem that drove splitting them was this:  You add an addnode. Your node comes it it uses it. Great.  Then days/weeks/month later your addnode connection disconnects... now it'll never reestablish it because an automatic outbound took the 'free' socket. So the alternatives were to make addnode disconnect outbounds (which is kinda ugly since the addnode reconnect might 
01:25 < gmaxwell> fail), or -- not share a limit.
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01:27 < gmaxwell> tryphe: sure, we've been cheating for a while with the "MIN_CORE_FILEDESCRIPTORS"
01:28 < tryphe> if you set ulimit -n 150, you get this message: Warning: Reducing -maxconnections from 125 to -8, because of system limitations.
01:28 < tryphe> :D
01:28 < wumpus> gmaxwell: yes it gets quite complex in that case, could reserve the addnode slots and not make normal outbound connections in them (so there's nothing to disconnect), but, I think this is ok
01:29 < gmaxwell> wumpus: yep, though then we'd have an odd behavior that setting maxconnections < 8 would cause you to make no connections. That might not be so bad except it would be a surprise for people with maxconnections already set to some low value.
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01:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] tryphe opened pull request #16003: [init] an incorrect amount of file descriptors is requested, and a different amount is also asserted (master...fd-limits-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16003
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01:30 < wumpus> tryphe: whoops it should error out in that case I think
01:30 < gmaxwell> tryphe: min would be 150 + 8 + 1 + 1 + 1  I think  the MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS gets reduced.
01:30 < gmaxwell> connOptions.nMaxOutbound = std::min(MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS, connOptions.nMaxConnections);
01:31 < gmaxwell> tryphe: sounds like you're on the right path to me, though
01:31 < tryphe> gmaxwell, hmm, but i wonder how the net code regards those consts. if i have -maxconnections=8 i don't know how many -addnode connections i -should- be able to make, for example
01:32 < tryphe> versus other connections i mean
01:32 < gmaxwell> tryphe: 8. it'll make up to 8 addnode connections regardless of what maxconnections is set to.
01:32 < tryphe> ahh i see, thanks
01:32 < tryphe> i figured that's how the feeler was as well
01:33 < gmaxwell> tryphe: wumpus and my initial answer were incorrect, addnodes don't charge against maxconnections.
01:33 < gmaxwell> Nor does the feeler IIRC though I haven't gone and checked again (feeler is short lived-- matters for FD accounting reasons)
01:33 < tryphe> okay, so i should probably exclude that from nUserMinConnections, but still include it in nFDMin
01:33 < tryphe> i think?
01:34 < gmaxwell> no.
01:34 < tryphe> oh, nevermind
01:34 < gmaxwell> if the user runs with a silly ulimit that only lets them make 0 outbounds, I suppose thats their own problem!
01:34 < gmaxwell> (though obviously it should be logging that fact.)
01:36 < tryphe> yeah, but there are systems like mac os where the requested amount comes close to the actual system limit, unlike the 1024 default in most Linux distros
01:36 < mryandao> is there even a use-case to apply ulimit changes before running an application?
01:37 < tryphe> mryandao, it was simply the only thing i could find to show that there's an issue :p
01:37 < gmaxwell> tryphe: on macos it increases it.
01:38 < gmaxwell> Erroring out would not be a good thing to do by default on any reasonably popular system.
01:38 < wumpus> mryandao: no, but some OSes do that automatically, I remember OpenBSD used to have very low FD limits for default users, don't know if this is stil true
01:39 < gmaxwell> right many of the BSDs set soft limits low (actually inhereted behavior from older unixes), but applications can increase them.
01:39 < wumpus> gmaxwell: I think it should error out only if it's not able to function normally, e.g. even reserve the file descriptors for the databases and default # outgoing connections
01:40 < wumpus> if your 'available FD count' ends up in the negative I'd say that is true
01:40 < gmaxwell> So this stuff about erroring out is only if we've run into the hardlimit (can't increase more) and still don't have enough to work.
01:40 < wumpus> much better to fail initially than later on when it's unable to open a file
01:40 < mryandao> its unusual for an application to be able to increase ulimit when the user has pre-define a lower ulimit before executing the application.
01:40 < wumpus> gmaxwell:yes, that's what I mean
01:40 < mryandao> what if an application decides to set to unlimited?
01:41 < gmaxwell> mryandao: it's _really_ common for applications to increase the soft limits. Soft limits everwhere have to be 1024 or less to prevent breaking select.
01:41 < gmaxwell> mryandao: so anything that doesn't have that problem increases it, your browser does, openoffice does, etc.
01:41 < gmaxwell> If you want to prevent that you lower the hard limit.
01:41 < tryphe> mryandao, the daemon can't increase the limit if you have it specifically set, though
01:41 < tryphe> hence 125 max connections is dynamic
01:42 < gmaxwell> I'm not aware of any system that has a particularly low default hard limit.
01:42 < tryphe> it can lower 125 to as low as 17 (with my PR), it doesn't return an error, but i feel like people might still be dumb and try to set it lower and expect it not to make those connections
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01:44 < gmaxwell> I don't think setting maxconnections higher than your system ulimit max count can support should result in a failure to start, it should do as it does now: log that its reducing your max connections.
01:44 < gmaxwell> It's debatable if it should refuse to start if it can't even get enough for 8 connections, I could go either way on that.
01:45 < gmaxwell> on one hand, its normal operation, on the other hand you might be noconnect and not making any connections at ll.
01:45 < gmaxwell> all*
01:46 < gmaxwell> sounds like wumpus prefers to at least preserve the ability to make 8 connections (I supose unless you've set maxconnections lower than even that)
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01:48 < tryphe> yeah, presumably you'd be able to run -connect=0 if you want no connections or something, as i think -maxconnections was intended to only increase connections and not specify what types of connections are to be used.
01:48 < tryphe> like if i have -maxconnections=1, does the feeler socket use the connection? it would be nice to mention something like that in the docs probably
01:50 < tryphe> i mean mention that a value below is invalid, or something
01:50 < tryphe> below x*
01:51 < gmaxwell> tryphe: no maxconnections is not intended to only increase connections.
01:51 < gmaxwell> In fact historically it could not increase connections.
01:52 < tryphe> gmaxwell, i guess i never ran with -maxconnections=0 
01:52 < gmaxwell> tryphe: feeler and addnode do not eat into maxconnections count, I believe. (well I know for addnode, pretty sure for feeler)
01:52 < sipa> it's a way to set resource limitations
01:52 < gmaxwell> max connections is the limit on automatic and inbound connections.
01:53 < sipa> running with -maxconnections=20 was fairly common advice on low-memory systems (at a tike when we had huge per-peer network buffers; it's much less impactful now)
01:53 < sipa> *time
01:54 < tryphe> i think i see now: int nMaxInbound = nMaxConnections - (nMaxOutbound + nMaxFeeler); via https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L895
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05:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/695141bf7a32...87dbf89271df
05:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5c04814 Hennadii Stepanov: Move non-linux source tarball to bitcoin-binaries
05:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 87dbf89 MarcoFalke: Merge #15239: scripts and tools: Move non-linux build source tarballs to "...
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05:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15239: scripts and tools: Move non-linux build source tarballs to "bitcoin-binaries/version" directory (master...20190123-gitian-source-tarballs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15239
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05:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/87dbf89271df...14959753a424
05:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 510c653 Ben Woosley: Extract ParseDescriptorRange
05:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1495975 MarcoFalke: Merge #15744: refactor: Extract ParseDescriptorRange
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05:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15744: refactor: Extract ParseDescriptorRange (master...parse-descriptor-range) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15744
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06:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nalinbhardwaj opened pull request #16006: rpc: use walletrbf as default setting in walletcreatefundedpsbt (master...walletcreatefundedpsbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16006
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08:37 < tryphe> gmaxwell/wumpus: i smoothed some things out better, but still not sure if that feeler connection should be added to the initial handle minimum. let me know what you think.
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08:37 < tryphe> handle/descriptor*
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09:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nalinbhardwaj closed pull request #16006: rpc: use walletrbf as default setting in walletcreatefundedpsbt (master...walletcreatefundedpsbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16006
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10:14 < gmaxwell> tryphe: I think they should, you can't deactivate the feeler.
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10:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/14959753a424...e2371f842fb9
10:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d20d756 Felix Weis: rpc: faster getblockstats using BlockUndo data
10:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2371f8 MarcoFalke: Merge #14802: rpc: faster getblockstats using BlockUndo data
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10:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #14802: rpc: faster getblockstats using BlockUndo data (master...201811_blockstats_undoblock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14802
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12:00 < meshcollider> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Fri May 10 19:00:07 2019 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < sipa> hi
12:00 < meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < phantomcircuit> hu
12:00 < phantomcircuit> also hi
12:01 < gmaxwell> ih
12:01 < meshcollider> The meetings have been pretty short for the past few weeks so maybe this will be too, but does anyone have any topics?
12:01 < jnewbery> High priority for review?
12:02 < meshcollider> #topic wallet high priority for review
12:02 < sipa> anything beyond what what discussed yesterday?
12:02 < jnewbery> I think there are three wallet PRs in there: #15024 #15006 #15870
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15024 | Allow specific private keys to be derived from descriptor by meshcollider · Pull Request #15024 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15006 | Add option to create an encrypted wallet by achow101 · Pull Request #15006 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15870 | wallet: Only fail rescan when blocks have actually been pruned by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #15870 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < jnewbery> Do we want to add anything for descriptor wallets?
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12:02 < jnewbery> are there any pre-req PRs
12:02 < sipa> i'm thinking about creating a psbt/descriptor separate tool that can update/sign, but i'm going to wait until some of the in-flight PRs are in
12:03 < sipa> jnewbery: 15024 is a pre-req for descriptor wallets iirc
12:03 < sipa> but already on the list
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12:04 < jnewbery> other than #15427, what's on the path for the descriptor tool?
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12:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15427 | Add support for descriptors to utxoupdatepsbt by sipa · Pull Request #15427 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < sipa> jnewbery: also 15024
12:05 < sipa> oh, i have a topic: how do we expect to deal with signign scripts were different satisfactions may have different costs?
12:05 < meshcollider> Andrews PR is based on #15741 and #15761 too 
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15741 | Batch write imported stuff in importmulti by achow101 · Pull Request #15741 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15761 | Replace -upgradewallet startup option with upgradewallet RPC by achow101 · Pull Request #15761 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < meshcollider> But both are his PRs and he already has one
12:05 < jnewbery> I think 15761 will be removed as a requirement based on the IRC meeting a few weeks ago
12:06 < gmaxwell> sipa: an upper bound on the cost needs to be known before signing starts.
12:06 < achow101> hi
12:07 < achow101> meshcollider: 15761 isn't a requirement for descriptor wallets anymore
12:07 < achow101> 15741 isn't necessarily a requirement, but it makes things faster
12:07 < meshcollider> achow101: ok, that's good
12:08 < sipa> we probably need something like 15741 anyway
12:08 < meshcollider> But not necessarily on high priority atm, I guess we will leave it as-is
12:08 < meshcollider> #topic signing scripts were different satisfactions may have different costs (sipa)
12:09 < sipa> gmaxwell: yes, the easiest approach is always assuming the worst case
12:09 < sipa> this is in the context of things like miniscript or the taproot proposal i recently published
12:09 < gmaxwell> sipa:  that isn't quite what I meant, like if you're going to spend via branch X, you have to know that in advance if you want to use lower weight for fee purposes.
12:10 < gmaxwell> so I think PSBT may need an extension for that.
12:10 < sipa> right, but plugging that into fee estimation and coin selection seems nontrivial
12:11 < gmaxwell> I think its trivial once you assume you have a way of knowing the "weight bound" for each input you're going to use... which itself is only triial if you always assume the worst case branch.
12:11 < sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, i guess if we can come up with something sufficiently generic to put in PSBT (something that restricts certain options or so?), it can probably go in the same form into descriptor records
12:11 < gmaxwell> right.
12:11 < gmaxwell> my thought is that a descriptor should be subsettable.
12:12 < gmaxwell> Like if a script is A or B, there should exist a descriptor that maps to the same spk but only lets you spend via A
12:12 < sipa> that's an interesting idea, putting it in the descriptor itself
12:12 < gmaxwell> in the context of taproot, that descriptor might not even reveal the content of B.
12:12 < gmaxwell> Descriptor-slice.
12:13 < sipa> let's call it a subscriptor
12:13 < sipa> :p
12:13 < gmaxwell> oohhhh
12:13 < meshcollider> lol
12:13 < gmaxwell> Right, so basically you make the cost analysis use the worst case, but use of a subscriptor can lower the worst case.
12:14 < achow101> so if used with taproot, you would have the hash of the other branch indicating that that other branch won't be used
12:15 < gmaxwell> right. something like that. I think you should be also able to include the data but indicate it won't be used.
12:15 < sipa> i guess there could be an unavailable(...) syntax element in descriptors, which for output calculation is identical to ..., but assumes the key/path/... subexpression isn't available for signing
12:15 < gmaxwell> (for a lot of applications you'll want to know what it is)
12:15 < sipa> (or something more syntax sugarry)
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12:16 < sipa> i like this
12:17 < achow101> but does such a subscriptor need to be included in a psbt?
12:18 < sipa> i think a subscriptor could just result in certain information not being put in a PSBT
12:19 < sipa> like certain branches of a merkle tree (assuming a taproot psbt extension) would just be left out if they're known to be unavailable (or just unknown)
12:19 < achow101> right
12:20 < sipa> thanks, i don't think this much more discussion right now
12:21 < meshcollider> Any other topics then?
12:22 < meshcollider> Is there anything else related to the Taproot/schnorr proposals that anyone wants to discuss here?
12:23 < gmaxwell> sipa: will you be doing a miniscript that targets taproot?
12:23 < gmaxwell> (like a compiler that takes the current input and outputs taproot scripts)
12:24 < sipa> gmaxwell: obviously :)
12:24 < gmaxwell> if you were planning to anyways, it might help discussion around taproot because you could compile example scripts both ways and show how their minimum and worst case spending costs change.
12:24 < sipa> meshcollider: i think most wallet discussions related to that are for later
12:24 < gmaxwell> manually constructing examples is always a bummer (and easy to get wrong)
12:25 < sipa> (afk now, will be back in an hour or so)
12:25 < meshcollider> Ok let's end things here then, thanks everyone :)
12:25 < meshcollider> #endmeeting
12:25 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri May 10 19:25:50 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:25 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-05-10-19.00.html
12:25 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-05-10-19.00.txt
12:25 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-05-10-19.00.log.html
12:25 < instagibbs> was going to ask "when miniscript in Core"
12:26 < instagibbs> motivating use-cases are probably required, but above conversation answers that one way
12:27 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: well, maybe it makes sense to do miniscript with taproot and not bother without.
12:28 < instagibbs> yep
12:35 < gmaxwell> certantly, things like taproot need miniscript in the sense that their ability will be wasted if we don't make it easier to make complex scripts.
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13:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e2371f842fb9...e79bbb73e08e
13:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 96d32a7 Jon Atack: [docs] Update release-process.md
13:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd63c1e Jon Atack: [docs] Update release-notes.md
13:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e79bbb7 MarcoFalke: Merge #15607: [Docs] Release process updates
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13:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15607: [Docs] Release process updates (master...release-process-updates) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15607
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15:45 < sipa> jonasschnelli: now that you have benchmarks for your poly1305/chacha20 implementation... would it be much work to also implement the "standard" openssh-like construction?
15:45 < sipa> it'd be good to have numbers to justify the choice for our own modification
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17:53 < tryphe> gmaxwell, thanks. my hunch was that the feeler count was incorporated into maxconnections, in order to reserve the feeler, ie default maxconnections=125, so you get 116 inbound, 8 outbound, and 1 feeler (see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L895)
17:54 < tryphe> gmaxwell, just figured i'd double check to make sure.
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21:40 < fanquake> sipa / wumpus can you block piilanismith from the GH. tagging & asking off-topic Qs.
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22:05 < sipa> can't right now
22:13 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: 
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