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00:35 < fanquake> promag: thanks
00:36 < promag> fanquake: np!
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04:17 < fanquake> wumpus could you take a look at 13989, even just a concept ACK / NACK ?
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06:04 < wumpus> fanquake: sure!
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07:43 < jamesob> fanquake: nah, benchmarked the avx512 PR mayber twice (for a total of ~2 hours runtime) and didn't see any cpu heat problems. But that was on a desktop machine that's well cooled
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07:46 < wumpus> where does that concern come from? is that a known issue that using AVX512 heats up CPUs more than other instructions?
07:48 < fanquake> wumpus: 09:55:22 <luke-jr> re AVX512, someone mentioned using it causes CPUs to overheat and clock down? so even a simple benchmark might not work out :/
07:48 < fanquake> jamesob: cheers 👍
07:49 < wumpus> ok
07:50 < fanquake> wumpus: although see the replies above, supposedly it’s actually just clocking down.
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07:51 < wumpus> I think in practice it's hard to ascribe heating to certain instructions, bitcoind validation has always been a risky workload for computers with bad heat management
07:52 < wumpus> hhmm apparently it's really a thing that people from cloudflare etc have writetn about https://lemire.me/blog/2018/08/13/the-dangers-of-avx-512-throttling-myth-or-reality/
07:52 < wumpus> thanks intel !
07:53 < promag> what is the min qt currently?
07:53 < wumpus> in any case if you disable AVX512 on a system this will cause bitcoind to not use it too
07:53 < fanquake> promag: should be 5.5.1
07:53 < wumpus> and newer / properly cooled chips might still benefit from it
07:53 < promag> thanks
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07:54 < wumpus> then again, I'm always a bit skeptical with using the newest instruction set extensions for hashing etc, probably, the kind of CPUs that have this are fast enough to not be bottlenecked by hashing in the first place
07:55 < wumpus> it probably pays off more to use special instructions on lower end hardware
07:55 < promag> wumpus: good point
07:59 < wumpus> why is no one doing this for ARM? :)
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08:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #15424: [wallet] wallet-tool: command to remove key metadata (master...2019/02/wallet_tool_remove_metadata) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15424
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08:11 < provoostenator> Random review beg #15457 for fans of sandboxed operating systems.
08:11 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15457 | Check std::system for -[alert|block|wallet]notify by Sjors · Pull Request #15457 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:19 < wumpus> provoostenator: thanks, kind of lost track of that one
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08:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4f378ac30cf6...8c69fae94410
08:34 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c1c91bb Sjors Provoost: [build] detect std::system or ::wsystem
08:34 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cc3ad56 Sjors Provoost: [build] MSVC: set HAVE_SYSTEM for desktop apps
08:34 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f874e14 Sjors Provoost: [build]: check std::system for -[alert|block|wallet]notify
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08:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15457: Check std::system for -[alert|block|wallet]notify (master...2019/02/std__system) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15457
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08:35 < provoostenator> wumpus: thanks!
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09:35 < emilengler> I currently have problems with bitcoin-cli to read an integer value on a new command I've implemented
09:35 < emilengler> With the JSONRPC however it works fine
09:36 < emilengler> bitcoin-cli says "JSON value is not an integer as expected"
09:36 < emilengler> Can someone help me?
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09:39 < sipa> emilengler: bitcoin-cli knows which arguments to treat as strings and which as json
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09:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #16344: [build]: use #if HAVE_SYSTEM instead of defined(HAVE_SYSTEM) (master...2019/07/system-ifdef) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16344
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09:40 < provoostenator> ^ sorry for the case of "this refactor can't possibly hurt"
09:41 < sipa> emilengler: if that information is wrong, if you write 5 on the command line, it will be sent in json-rpc as the string "5" rather than the integer 5
09:41 < emilengler> sipa: Thanks for letting me know but how does "generatetoaddress" solves the problem?
09:42 < emilengler> There the first argument is an integer
09:42 < sipa> bitcoin-cli knows that the first argument to generatetoaddress is to be interpreted as json instead of as a string
09:43 < emilengler> sipa: Ok, thank you I will take a look at it
09:44 < provoostenator> emilengler: it does that here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpc/client.cpp#L31
09:44 < sipa> yup
09:45 < emilengler> provoostenator, that was exactly what I was looking for, thanks
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09:47 < emilengler> Thanks, it works now :)
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10:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] emilengler opened pull request #16345: RPC: Add getblockbyheight (master...getblockbyheight) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16345
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10:41 < wumpus> provoostenator: I had kind of assumed you'd have tested #15457 on a sandboxed system (I didn't have any available)
10:41 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15457 | Check std::system for -[alert|block|wallet]notify by Sjors · Pull Request #15457 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:41 < provoostenator> wumpus: I did, but apparently not after that last change (or I did, but somehow missed the issue anyway).
10:44 < provoostenator> Meanwhile I have a bit more experience linking C(++) libraries in iOs, which means with a bit of luck I might be able to actually test running stuff, not just compiling.
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11:05 < wumpus> provoostenator: awesome!
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11:58 < meshcollider> There's a wallet meeting scheduled for today but considering the low turnout for the meeting yesterday, does anyone want to discuss anything?
11:59 < wumpus> it's no longer freedom day at least
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12:00 < sipa> i could give a bit of an update on miniscript if people are interested
12:00 < achow101> wallet meeting?
12:00 < meshcollider> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Fri Jul  5 19:00:58 2019 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:01 < meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball
12:01 < achow101> all I have to say is that #16341 does the wallet restructure and is very large
12:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16341 | Introduce ScriptPubKeyMan interface and use it for key and script management (aka wallet boxes) by achow101 · Pull Request #16341 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:01 < provoostenator> hi
12:01 < provoostenator> achow101: the infamous box? I'll add to my review list.
12:01 < meshcollider> #topic miniscript update (sipa)
12:01 < schmidty> hola
12:01 < sipa> hi!
12:02 < sipa> so me and some colleagues of mine have been working on a way to make more complex bitcoin scripts more accessible, in a project called miniscript
12:03 < sipa> this is about the bitcoin scirpt language as it exists today, without any softforks or other changes to consensus needed (but obviously prepared for those)
12:05 < sipa> the idea is that we can define a subset of script which is composable (so things can be arbitrarily nested, say you can replace a public key anywhere with a "subexpression" which corresponds to an arbitrary policy), has properties like correctness and nonmalleability that can be easily reasoned about, and can be targetted by a compiler that converts policies into scripts
12:05 < sipa> with this, we could make software/hardware wallets support basically arbitrary policies, without even any extensions to psbt
12:06 < sipa> there's a website which is still actively being changed: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/miniscript
12:06 < sipa> does this make sense?
12:07 < achow101> sipa: is your website the only documentation of miniscript?
12:07 < sipa> achow101: andrew and sanket are also working on a rust implementation, which is public i think
12:07 < sipa> but as we're actively changing things yet i prefer to not really have any production code available
12:09 < meshcollider> This seems very nice
12:09 < sipa> so the different moving parts would be (a) signing logic in core/other software which is miniscript compatible, allowing signing/updating of any valid miniscript-compatible script (b) extension to descriptors that lets you include miniscript expressions, which are kinda engineer-readable but maybe a bit less than descriptors are now... (c) a compiler from policies with probabilities for all 
12:09 < sipa> branches/choices to miniscript descriptors
12:09 < jb55> I see the aor was replaced with explicit probabilities, is that overkill or are there use cases in mind?
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12:10 < sipa> jb55: it was basically impossible to write a 3-way or where each branch is equally likely
12:10 < jb55> ah
12:10 < sipa> oh we also came up with a neat algorithm that lets you compute the worst-case satisfaction cost for a miniscript, with annotations on various branches saying "this key is certainly available, this key will not be available at signing time, this key may be available at signing time"
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12:10 < sipa> which is useful for fee estimation
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12:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipsorcery closed pull request #15995: systemd service script: set usable permissions on /etc/bitcoin config dir (master...systemdconfig) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15995
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12:11 < sipa> and the compiler is also good enough now that it can construct scripts that are strictly better than the bolt 3 htlc scripts... but obviously incompatible with them
12:12 < sipa> it'd be nice to support all actual script people have come up with in the past, but it would require adding a whole bunch of ad-hoc extensions for weird tricks
12:13 < achow101> cool! how close to being finalized do you think it is?
12:13 < achow101> (aka when pr?)
12:13 < sipa> i think we're very close to finalizing the design of the language... but we've been saying that for a few weeks now
12:14 < sipa> it'll be some work to convert the hacky code to something PR'able
12:14 < sipa> but i hope soon
12:14 < sipa> so a motivation for this is for example being able to use a 2-of-3-timelocked-escrow-cool policy as a "participant" in a multisig, rather than being restricted to just keys in the multisig
12:16 < sipa> more questions? otherwise end topic
12:16 < achow101> the policy language is descriptors, right?
12:16 < sipa> nope
12:17 < sipa> the thing i envision becoming part of descriptors is a 1-to-1 mapping with script itself
12:17 < sipa> so there is no "compilation" step between the descriptor and the script, as that compilation is pretty complex
12:18 < achow101> is it policy -> descriptor -> script?
12:18 < sipa> so the policy language is similar, but it has probabilities in it, and only has and/or/threshold/key/hash/time functions
12:18 < sipa> policy -> descriptor <-> script
12:18 < achow101> ah, ok
12:18 < sipa> while the descriptor extensions have a ton of different ways of encoding an and/or, depending on context, probabilities, ...
12:19 < sipa> i don't expect the policy language and the compiler to become part of core,
12:20 < sipa> though maybe some analysis functionality may be (e.g. we can extract a policy without probabilities back from the script etc)
12:20 < meshcollider> So what are you planning to PR then?
12:21 < sipa> ability to sign/update/psbt arbitrary miniscript compatible scripts
12:21 < sipa> and extensions to descriptors
12:21 < achow101> basically replacing the solver and ProduceSignature?
12:22 < achow101> so instead of pattern matching to figure out how to sign and finalize, interpret miniscript/descriptors
12:22 < sipa> right
12:22 < sipa> maybe all of the signing code can become delegated to a miniscript module
12:22 < sipa> maybe the existing rawtransaction-compatible ones should just stay as legacy code, and only miniscript code gets invoked for more complex things
12:23 < achow101> and with native descriptor wallets, people will be able to track whatever weird scripts they want and be able to sign for them
12:23 < sipa> the conversion from script to miniscript structure is basically an LALR(1) parser (we have a handwritten one that's easier to read, but tools like bison/yacc can generate code to do this trivially)
12:24 < sipa> yup
12:24 < sipa> and with psbt, you can have even hardware wallets in theory participate in signing
12:24 < sipa> though they may freak out with the unconventional scripts, and change detection becomes a lot harder
12:25 < jb55> sipa: is the conversion from script to policy ever ambiguous?
12:25 < jb55> if that makes sense
12:25 < sipa> jb55: if you define an "abstract policy" which is a policy but without probabilities in it, you can always derive the abstract policy from a script
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12:26 < meshcollider> Ah that LALR parser point answered my next question
12:26 < sipa> in such a way that it's equivalent to the policy fed to the compiler
12:26 < jb55> sipa: and that is guaranteed to be unique?
12:26 < sipa> jb55: though if the compiler gets a lot smarter, this may not be possible anymore (e.g. complex reasoning over booleans/threshold gates to simplify the policy before compiler)
12:27 < sipa> jb55: testing whether two different encodings of the same abstract policy are identical for arbitrary policies is an intractable problem
12:27 < sipa> like and(a,thresh(2,a,b,c)) is identical to and(a,or(b,c))
12:28 < sipa> things like that cannot be generally compared
12:28 < sipa> but the compiler (so far) won't ever make such transitions
12:29 < jb55> right
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12:32 < meshcollider> Alright this seems very nice, thank you sipa, I need some time to read the website in more detail 
12:33 < meshcollider> Does anyone have any other topics to discuss today?
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12:34 < achow101> please review wallet boxes and the 3 PRs it depends on
12:34 < meshcollider> Yes ^ sorry I haven't reviewed much yet, it's been a crazy week
12:36 < meshcollider> #action review wallet box PRs
12:36 < meshcollider> #endmeeting
12:36 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri Jul  5 19:36:41 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:36 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-07-05-19.00.html
12:36 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-07-05-19.00.txt
12:36 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-07-05-19.00.log.html
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13:00 < pinheadmz> I have a question about RBF implementation / BIP125 rules: Just seems like these two cases are redundant:
13:01 < pinheadmz> bad-txns-spends-conflicting-tx
13:01 < pinheadmz> replacement-adds-unconfirmed
13:01 < pinheadmz> The first error is thrown if you spend an output that will be replaced 
13:01 < pinheadmz> but the second doesnt allow the replacement to spend any unconf outputs anyway - already
13:03 < pinheadmz> so if the second case was jsut checked first, there'd be no need for the first case ...?
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14:08 < luke-jr> pinheadmz: they're fundamentally different issues
14:08 < luke-jr> pinheadmz: the second one is (hypothetically, in a PR, and in Knots) overrideable
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14:29 < pinheadmz> luke-jr: thanks, I get it now. The first is definitely invalid, the second is more like a policy
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14:31 < luke-jr> right
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21:28 < achow101> would it be possible to block this fqlx guy? I get that he's trying to help by reviewing, but he clearly doesn't understand this codebase or have read any of the contributing docs so most of his comments are noise
21:29 < fanquake> achow101 I've just commented in that thread.
21:31 < fanquake> Seems to have been an inflow of new commenters over the past few days.
21:31 < achow101> fanquake: I think they maybe coming from the pr review club? If so, I think it would be prudent to make it clear there that people actually need to read the contributor guidelines before they start reviewing
21:35 < fanquake> achow101 Especially in that kind of PR. That's already going to be a noisy WIP, and right now it only needs concept level review.
21:35 < fanquake> There's no point having everyone jump in and start nit-picking on the nearly 100 commits, that are already being reviewed in separate PRs.
21:35 < achow101> most of their comments are on previous PRs too..
21:36 < fanquake> Doubling up the same comments/review is definitely not what we want
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23:42 < achow101> anyone familiar with MSVC know what's up with this error: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/builds/25786259?
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 06 00:00:07 2019