--- Log opened Thu Jul 18 00:00:16 2019
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04:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] tecnovert opened pull request #16412: net: Make poll in InterruptibleRecv only filter for POLLIN events. (master...bitcoin-poll) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16412
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04:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0515406acb5d...65d12110d43a
04:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a981e74 João Barbosa: fix: tor: Call event_base_loopbreak from the event's callback
04:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 65d1211 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #16405: fix: tor: Call event_base_loopbreak from the event's callbac...
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04:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #16405: fix: tor: Call event_base_loopbreak from the event's callback (master...2019-07-fix-break-before-dispatch) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16405
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05:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] THETCR opened pull request #16413: depends: Bump QT to LTS release 5.9.8 (master...qt-lts) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16413
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05:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/65d12110d43a...e5abb59a9a66
05:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ae311bc Hennadii Stepanov: Fix autostart filenames on Linux
05:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e5abb59 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #16379: Fix autostart filenames on Linux for testnet/regtest
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05:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #16379: Fix autostart filenames on Linux for testnet/regtest (master...20190712-fix-autostart) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16379
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06:04 < MarcoFalke> #proposedmeetingtopic  Remove mempool expiry, treat txs as replaceable instead #16409 
06:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16409 | Remove mempool expiry, treat txs as replaceable instead by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #16409 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
06:04 < MarcoFalke> #proposedmeetingtopic 0.18.1
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06:06 < fanquake> Don't think I'll be at the meeting, but ACK kicking off 0.18.1
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06:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/410774ab89fd...3f76160087c0
06:06 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 b2711b9 João Barbosa: fix: tor: Call event_base_loopbreak from the event's callback
06:06 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 3f76160 fanquake: Merge #16406: 0.18: fix: tor: Call event_base_loopbreak from the event's c...
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06:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #16406: 0.18: fix: tor: Call event_base_loopbreak from the event's callback (0.18...2019-07-backport-16405) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16406
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06:52 < promag> regarding 0.18.1, just to be clear, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13339#issuecomment-504653790 is a no go?
06:53 < promag> we already have "experimental" features and IMHO the lack of this feature invalidates some multi wallet usages
06:54 < sdaftuar> #proposedmeetingtopic -blocksonly not being a hidden option in 0.18.1
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07:05 < wumpus> please, let's try to cut 0.18.1 at some point
07:05 < wumpus> and not keep adding things t oit
07:06 < promag> just asking, again :P
07:07 < promag> what about #16322
07:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16322 | wallet: Fix -maxtxfee check by moving it to CWallet::CreateTransaction by promag · Pull Request #16322 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:08 < promag> is has "Needs backport"
07:09 < promag> it's not a clean backport
07:09 < promag> (by far)
07:09 < wumpus> ok, maybe it can wait until 0.18.2 then
07:09 < promag> +1
07:09 < MarcoFalke> Wat?
07:10 < promag> I mean I agree
07:10 < MarcoFalke> I don't
07:10 < promag> ok then :D
07:10 < MarcoFalke> Users are throwing away coins due to a bug in our software
07:10 < wumpus> ok, 0.18.1 plans for today are off...
07:10 < wumpus> *resets tree*
07:11 < MarcoFalke> sorry :(
07:11 < promag> backporting that requires some refactors
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07:11 < MarcoFalke> promag: Would the backport be clean if you also cherry picked the change where the txerros are moved to the new file?
07:11 < promag> or rewrite the fix in 0.17 without those refactors
07:12 < wumpus> it's a compromise with how bad the current bugs are that require the 0.18.1 release in the first place, if you think this bug is *much worse* than what the fixed already in it fix, well then it makes sense to wait
07:12 < promag> i mean 0.18
07:12 < wumpus> if not, it just exposes users to other bugs for longer
07:12 < promag> MarcoFalke: I'll have to check that
07:13 < MarcoFalke> The maxtxfee is not a regression. I has existed for all time, I think. I am glad that promag finally fixed it
07:14 < wumpus> I'm also glad that he fixed it, don't get me wrong
07:14 < promag> it depends on #15778 and #15638
07:14 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15778 | [wallet] Move maxtxfee from node to wallet by jnewbery · Pull Request #15778 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:14 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15638 | Move-only: Pull wallet code out of libbitcoin_server by ryanofsky · Pull Request #15638 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:14 < wumpus> *hasty last minute difficult backport* just sounds risky to me
07:14 < promag> amd #16257
07:14 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16257 | [wallet] abort when attempting to fund a transaction above -maxtxfee by Sjors · Pull Request #16257 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:15 < wumpus> if it was a clean merge there would be no argument I think
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07:16 < promag> this sounds too much to backport. actually I've tried but at some point I gave up because of the required changes
07:17 < promag> but the real fix Marco mentions is to check maxtxfee in CreateTransaction, this could be implemented I guess
07:18 < wumpus> a subset of the fix that solves the worst issue would do
07:18 < wumpus> especially if easy to review
07:18 < promag> this -> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16322/files#diff-b2bb174788c7409b671c46ccc86034bdR3125
07:19 < promag> and the tests
07:20 < wumpus> the tests don't have the sameconcerns, backport as much refactors as you need there
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07:35 < wumpus> looks like #16412 needs to hold up 0.18.1 too
07:35 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16412 | net: Make poll in InterruptibleRecv only filter for POLLIN events. by tecnovert · Pull Request #16412 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:23 < wumpus> sdaftuar: ok, I see #15990 has been backported to 0.18.1, the intent of your meeting topic is whether it should be hidden again?
08:23 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15990 | Add tests and documentation for blocksonly by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #15990 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #16414: 0.18: wallet: Fix -maxtxfee check by moving it to CWallet::CreateTransaction (0.18...2019-07-backport-16322) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16414
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08:58 < promag> MarcoFalke: wumpus: wip backport ^
08:59 < promag> let me know if I should squash
09:04 < kallewoof> I would like to request that #16411 is added to Chasing Concept ACK (will probably crash before meeting starts).
09:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16411 | Signet support by kallewoof · Pull Request #16411 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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09:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ryanofsky opened pull request #16415: Get rid of PendingWalletTx class (master...pr/nopend) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16415
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10:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #16416: Negated -datadir option implies default datadir (master...20190718-nodatadir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16416
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11:33 < sdaftuar> wumpus: my topic suggestion is more to discuss the implications of there being more -blocksonly listening nodes out there
11:37 < wumpus> okay,makes sense
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11:44 < warren> sdaftuar: is their motivation bandwidth reduction?
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11:49 < dongcarl> wumpus: reading the addrv2 BIP now... why VARINT for time and service bits, why not just u64s?
11:49 < sdaftuar> warren: presumably?
11:50 < wumpus> dongcarl: to save space in the common case
11:50 < gleb> There are also attack vectors implied by transaction relay topology leaks, but I don't know for now how practical those are.
11:50 < wumpus> (bandwidth)
11:51 < sipa> who is they?
11:51 < gleb> -blocksonly listening nodes I think?
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11:52 < sipa> i mean in warren's question, "they" seems to refer to persons
11:52 < wumpus> dongcarl: these are structures which are potentially repeated many times in a packet, so every byte saved is good
11:52 < wumpus> dongcarl: why the preference for u64s?
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11:53 < dongcarl> Eh, just thought it's simpler
11:53 < wumpus> one thing that addrv2 does, too, is represent ipv4 addresses as four bytes
11:54 < dongcarl> wumpus: Oh, that's good
11:54 < sipa> a varint for a 33-bit value is also 8 bytes
11:54 < sipa> *9 bytes
11:54 < wumpus> so if you, at the same time, blow up time to 8 bytes...
11:54 < sipa> assuming it is refering to the usual protocol compactsize encoding, not our internal varint encoding
11:54 < wumpus> sipa: yes, one suggestion was to quantize time, this would avoid some topology leak attacks as well as save space
11:55 < sipa> i don't see the topology argument; it's just the data inside the addresses, not their encoding that matters?
11:55 < wumpus> precise last-seen times allowed for that
11:56 < wumpus> AFAIK there was already a mitigation against that, though
11:57 < dongcarl> Right, there seems to be quite a few possibilities for the "time" field discussed in the BIP
11:57 < wumpus> "(gmaxwell) If you care about space time field could be reduced to 16 bits easily. Turn it into a "time ago seen" quantized to 1 hour precision. (IIRC we quantize times to 2hrs regardless)."
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11:57 < dongcarl> 1. UNIX epoch 2. last seen 3. whether to quantize
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11:57 < wumpus> oh, right
11:58 < wumpus> I kind of forgot that he made the "time ago" suggestion, it seems weird for gossiping
11:59 < dongcarl> I feel like epoch quantized to 1 hr precision sounds good...
11:59 < wumpus> dongcarl: in the BIP itself it simply encodes absolute time, those considerations are separate
11:59 < dongcarl> not sure what is meant by (we quantize time to 2hr regardless)
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12:00 < wumpus> apparently we already do that in the net code
12:00 < wumpus> to mitigate the topology leak attack
12:00 < wumpus> but I don't know where tbh
12:00 < meshcollider> meeting?
12:00 < dongcarl> sounds like I need to do more documentin'
12:00 < dongcarl> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 18 19:00:28 2019 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < kanzure> hi
12:00 < jonasschnelli> hi
12:00 < kallewoof> hello
12:00 < hebasto> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral
12:01 < achow101> hi
12:01 < sipa> hi
12:01 < meshcollider> hi 
12:01  * dongcarl would like to talk about addrv2 some more after the meeting if people have time
12:01 < luke-jr> hi
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12:01 < jamesob> hi
12:02 < moneyball> hi
12:02 < wumpus> three topics proposed in https://gist.github.com/moneyball/071d608fdae217c2a6d7c35955881d8a this time:  Remove mempool expiry, treat txs as replaceable instead , 0.18.1 and "-blocksonly not being a hidden option in 0.18.1"
12:02 < moneyball> https://gist.github.com/moneyball/071d608fdae217c2a6d7c35955881d8a
12:02 < cfields> hi
12:04 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:04 < warren> hi
12:04 < wumpus> current: 4 blockers, 5 things chasing concept ACK
12:04 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
12:04 < gleb> hi
12:04 < jamesob> was hoping to get #16355 added
12:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16355 | refactor: move CCoinsViewErrorCatcher out of init.cpp by jamesob · Pull Request #16355 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < wumpus> anything to add, anything ready for merge?
12:05 < jonasschnelli> May I add #16202 to the list?
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16202 | Refactor network message deserialization by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #16202 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < kallewoof> wumpus: I would like #16411 in Chasing Concept ACK, if possible
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16411 | Signet support by kallewoof · Pull Request #16411 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < wumpus> jamesob jonasschnelli kallewoof sure
12:06 < jamesob> thanks!
12:07 < wumpus> ok added
12:07 < wumpus> there are *many* things chasing concept ACK, are there any making progress (maybe enough to remove them?)
12:09 < luke-jr> I almost wonder if concept-acks should be done separately from PRs, with more user input
12:09 < wumpus> #topic Remove mempool expiry, treat txs as replaceable instead (MarcoFalke)
12:10 < MarcoFalke> Pull request is here #16409
12:10 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16409 | Remove mempool expiry, treat txs as replaceable instead by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #16409 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:10 < MarcoFalke> And already received some feedback
12:10 < luke-jr> Sounds like it should be two PRs…
12:10 < wumpus> luke-jr: not sure separating them out is a key to get more interest imo
12:11 < luke-jr> expiry helps remove unconfirming txs from RAM etc
12:11 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Yeah, if removing expiry is so controversial, then yes
12:11 < wumpus> anything that touches policy is probably somewhat controversial
12:11 < sipa> another approach is to make the marginal-cost-for-replacement go to 0 after some time
12:11 < sdaftuar> I think expiry performs an important job, albeit not perfectly, which is handling diverse node policies in a semi-reasonable way
12:12 < luke-jr> but what if the sender doesn't replace?
12:12 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: YOu can not expect to use that ram anyway, since you set the max usage to well the max usage
12:12 < sipa> yeah, i'd need to think more about the impact there
12:12 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: it might not always be maxxed out
12:12 < jnewbery> sipa: that doesn't solve the case of txs being pinned
12:12 < sipa> jnewbery: ah yes
12:14 < MarcoFalke> sipa: I don't see this as an issue in the network as of today (it is mostly theoretical)
12:14 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: it's an issue because people are designing around it
12:14 < sdaftuar> the issue of diverse node policies is an issue
12:14 < midnightmagic> I was going to say, expiry is super useful..
12:14 < sdaftuar> if we deploy this now, then in the future when we make a policy change, we'll have a problem to think about
12:14 < sdaftuar> which we won't have a good way to solve
12:15 < MarcoFalke> sdaftuar: Agree that it might be premature to remove expiry right now, but in the long term it could at least be limited to high-fee txs
12:15 < wumpus> what is the primary motivation to remove expiry?
12:16 < sipa> sdaftuar: when a policy change happens, there is always a shutdown+restart involved, no?
12:16 < sipa> sdaftuar: so there is a load from mempool.dat in between?
12:16 < sdaftuar> the issue is around what happens to old nodes
12:16 < MarcoFalke> If miners are running the default settings, they might throw away income. If they are not, then nodes have a false sense of what can be replaced
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12:16 < sdaftuar> which will not have the new rule, but will also not exprie things that are not getting mined
12:16 < luke-jr> not just old nodes. even updated nodes don't have a common policy
12:17 < sdaftuar> luke-jr: i agree with that too
12:17 < MarcoFalke> So the rbf pinning issue jnewbery mentions is not solved if miners are keeping the tx and you can replace it in your own mempool
12:17 < wumpus> so dropping expiry would mean that some transactions could get stuck in the mempool literally forever
12:17 < sdaftuar> wumpus: exactly
12:17 < sipa> i feel 2 weeks is sufficiently long that it isn't actually affecting anything that will likely confirm
12:18 < sipa> do we have numbers otherwise?
12:18 < wumpus> even an expiry of, say, 2 month would be better than none at all in that regard
12:18 < sipa> like at what rate do transactions get expired from common mempools?
12:18 < sipa> and do any of them still confirm after?
12:18 < sipa> or maybe even better, how often do transaction expire from the mempool, and then re-enter it?
12:18 < wumpus> would be useful to have that information
12:19 < kallewoof> sipa: I can get those numbers
12:19 < sipa> that'd be great to have in this discussion
12:19 < luke-jr> What problem is this trying to solve?
12:19 < kallewoof> sipa: They're not very large, from what I have seen
12:20 < MarcoFalke> kallewoof: The number of expiries or the number that are mined after expiry?
12:20 < sdaftuar> i think this needs to be thought about from the perspective of older software as well
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12:20 < sdaftuar> if you only analyze this from the perspective of the latest version of Bitcoin Core, for instance, you only get a one-sided view
12:20 < kallewoof> MarcoFalke: I can fine tune it with some tweakery. Will not be done today, but can do tomorrow
12:20 < sipa> but it doesn't have to be large; say if 5 transactions expire per day, but 4.5 of those then re-enter the mempool again, that's evidence that due to rebroadcasting the expiration is effectively ineffective
12:20  * sipa likes "effectively ineffective"
12:21 < wumpus> hehe
12:21 < kallewoof> MarcoFalke: To clarify, I can fine tune it to count txs that do get mined after being purged from mempool at least once.
12:22 < sdaftuar> can you also do that from the perspective of an 0.15 node?
12:22 < kallewoof> sdaftuar: no
12:22 < Raystonn> It ineffectively affects the mempool, which results in not much net effect.
12:22 < kallewoof> sdaftuar: well, actually yes, but not without your help.
12:23 < sdaftuar> kallewoof: my data is probably insufficient too, unfortunately
12:23 < sdaftuar> i am not really sure i guess
12:23 < kallewoof> sdaftuar: i thought it recorded everything
12:24 < kallewoof> sdaftuar: besides, having the simulation mode alone means all you have to do is fake the time and throw the txs at the right moment and the node should do the expiration on its own
12:24 < sdaftuar> i don't know offhand how representative its outbound peers are
12:25 < sdaftuar> as an example, i was surprised today to discover that my 0.12 node accepted and then expired some transactions on a particular day in May
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12:25 < sdaftuar> it looks like on May 5, it received some very low-fee transactions, which were accepted to the mempool as "priority" transactions
12:26 < sdaftuar> i was somewhat shocked that its peers (it only has the 8 outbound) would relay such things to it
12:26 < sdaftuar> but i guess it has some peer diversity
12:27 < MarcoFalke> sdaftuar: Those are probably valid txs, so I wouldn't call that "shocking"
12:27 < sdaftuar> MarcoFalke: i was shocked that the policy diversity on the network was so strong that 8 random peers would include some that aren't enforcing the minrelayfee we have had in place since 0.15
12:27 < luke-jr> mempool still had a priority exception in 0.15? O.o
12:27 < MarcoFalke> Ok, fine.
12:27 < sdaftuar> i think 0.15 was when we first got rid of it
12:28 < kallewoof> I looked at our email convo and it looks like I am waiting for you to give me a snapshot. :)
12:28 < sdaftuar> kallewoof: oops, thanks for the reminder :)
12:28 < MarcoFalke> I think this is too controversial right now, so I will let it sit for a while
12:28 < MarcoFalke> and revisit later
12:28 < MarcoFalke> Can we chat about 0.18.1?
12:28 < jnewbery> MarcoFalke: after some digging, it turns out those transactions were actually from 2017. Someone had dug them up and rebroadcast them
12:29 < MarcoFalke> sdaftuar and me had a topic on 0.18.1
12:29 < wumpus> #topic 0.18.1
12:29 < MarcoFalke> jnewbery: Which reads to me like a reason to remove expiry, but anyway
12:29 < Raystonn> A hodler found and opened his wallet again.
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12:30 < sdaftuar> i wanted to discuss the impact of the -blocksonly change
12:30 < MarcoFalke> (Think how shocking it would be if you see a tx confirm 2 years after you "cancelled" it)
12:30 < wumpus> apparently, the maxtxfee fix is harder to backport than expected
12:30 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: I will take a look as well, but if it is really too hard I am fine with 0.18.2
12:30 < Raystonn> The only way to guarantee a transaction will not confirm once it has broadcast is to spend the relevant UTXOs in another.
12:30 < wumpus> oh, looks like promag  did already open a backport PR: #16414
12:31 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16414 | 0.18: wallet: Fix -maxtxfee check by moving it to CWallet::CreateTransaction by promag · Pull Request #16414 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:31 < wumpus> hadn't seen this
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12:31 < MarcoFalke> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/milestone/41
12:31 < wumpus> in any case as this is a non-clean backport it does need review and testing
12:31 < wumpus> more than had it been a clean backport, at least…
12:31 < MarcoFalke> Three people wrote tests for it
12:32 < MarcoFalke> So #16412 will get in as well?
12:32 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16412 | net: Make poll in InterruptibleRecv only filter for POLLIN events. by tecnovert · Pull Request #16412 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:32 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: it should, it's a small and obvious change, that fixes a real problem, and is easy to backport
12:32 < MarcoFalke> #15911 doesn't make progess, so it'll have to wait
12:32 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15911 | Use wallet RBF default for walletcreatefundedpsbt by Sjors · Pull Request #15911 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:33 < wumpus> yes
12:33 < wumpus> it's not ready for master yet, let alone backporting, so let's move it to 0.18.2
12:34 < wumpus> done
12:35 < wumpus> what about #15706?
12:35 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15706 | build: Check QT library version by lucayepa · Pull Request #15706 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:35 < fanquake> I think that wait
12:35 < wumpus> it's been waiting for author for a while
12:35 < MarcoFalke> agree
12:35 < wumpus> even though my comment is trivial
12:35 < fanquake> *can
12:35 < wumpus> ok, moving
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12:36 < wumpus> ok let's go to sdaftuar's topic
12:36 < promag> hi
12:36 < wumpus> -blocksonly is now a non-hidden option in 0.18.1
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12:36 < sdaftuar> so historically, i believe we have not made the -blocksonly option more widely known because we don't have good protections in place for a network where many listening nodes are not relaying transactions, i think
12:37 < sdaftuar> now that we're doing it, i think we should make sure there are not unintended side effects
12:37 < MarcoFalke> sdaftuar: It is mentioned on bitcoin.org
12:37 < MarcoFalke> And has been for years
12:37 < sdaftuar> for instance, if we see a rise in -blocksonly listening nodes, then right now we have no protections in place for ensuring connectivity to transaction-relaying peers
12:37 < jonasschnelli> fee-estimations are not possible with -blocksonly? right?
12:38 < sdaftuar> MarcoFalke: i was not aware!  anyway, perhaps that doesn't matter much, i think we should still be concerned about making our software more robust
12:38 < MarcoFalke> agree
12:38 < jnewbery> jonasschnelli: correct, but I don't see how that's relevant
12:38 < kallewoof> jonasschnelli: fee estimations use blocks only, so it should be possible
12:38 < wumpus> I don't personally think unhiding the option in help is going to make that much of a difference, it's been well-known
12:38 < warren> maybe an informational tx relaying service bit?
12:38 < jnewbery> kallewoof: fee estimation requires a mempool
12:38 < sdaftuar> wumpus: fair point, perhaps our choice here is not relevant
12:38 < luke-jr> do they dset NODE_NETWORK?
12:38 < warren> or informational not-tx-relaying service bit?
12:39 < sdaftuar> luke-jr: yes
12:39 < kallewoof> jnewbery: weird. i thought it only used blocks. maybe it changed since last i looked at it.
12:39 < sdaftuar> i think we could make our p2p code smarter to ensure we have "enough" tx-relaying outbounds, but this work needs to be done, and i think we should prioritize it
12:39 < luke-jr> warren: I don't think we gain anything by making it a negative bit
12:40 < MarcoFalke> sdaftuar: Could you create a brainstorming issue for that?
12:40 < sdaftuar> also, old software has no protections, i don't know what to do about that. presumably we're still a while away from there being a large fraction of listening nodes being blocksonly, so we have some time
12:41 < sdaftuar> MarcoFalke: sure
12:41 < wumpus> is blocksonly really that popular?
12:41 < jonasschnelli> jnewbery: I think its relevant because it reduces the usability of blocksonly&wallet significant. I's already an expert features and thouse who are know the blocksonly feature.
12:41 < sdaftuar> wumpus: i forgot to mention why i brought this up
12:41 < gleb> I'll try to simulate how "half of nodes turning blocksonly" or something like that might affect tx relay latency or compact blocks relay latency, let me know if you have other metrics in mind
12:41 < sdaftuar> i encountered a random blocksonly listening node when testing something recently, and i was surprised
12:42 < wumpus> sdaftuar: that's very anocdotal but yeah :)
12:42 < MarcoFalke> Could a short-term fix be to disconnect a random outbound if all outbounds are blocksonly?
12:42 < sdaftuar> wumpus: so i don't know how common it is now, but when i realized we were unhiding the option and recommending it in our docs, i figured its popularity could rise
12:42 < jnewbery> kallewoof: https://bitcointechtalk.com/an-introduction-to-bitcoin-core-fee-estimation-27920880ad0 :)
12:42 < warren> I had been running a blocksonly node for years
12:42 < wumpus> if you find one by accident then it's probably more common
12:43 < jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: wouldn't that require a new service flag (or a split of NODE_NETWORK / RELAY)?
12:43 < jonasschnelli> (to work reliable)
12:43 < warren> not "reliable" but at least you could be told all your peers aren't relaying
12:43 < sdaftuar> jonasschnelli: right now, nodes running with -blocksonly achieve that by setting the fRelayTxes=false in the VERSION message
12:43 < sdaftuar> so we can detect it on connection
12:44 < wumpus> right, you can detect it for connected nodes through the version message
12:44 < jonasschnelli> I see. So we could just disconnect fRelayTxes=false up to a certain threshold 
12:45 < wumpus> for outbound only I hope
12:45 < sdaftuar> i wonder if the dnsseeds people run are tuned to look for this? 
12:45  * sdaftuar stares at all of you
12:46  * jonasschnelli checking....
12:46 < sipa> i doubt it
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12:46 < jonasschnelli> it's not checking the fRelayTxes
12:47 < sdaftuar> matt seems skeptical this is a good idea, anyway i just wanted bring up the topic so others can think about it
12:47 < wumpus> I'm not sure it should filter out all nodes that are blocksonly
12:47 < cfields> sdaftuar: why would it? Seeds are primarily hit during IBD.
12:48 < sdaftuar> cfields: i think in practice we hit the seeds a lot now, actually, but i think that's also a bug
12:48 < wumpus> the main task of the P2P network is relaying blocks, after all, sure there need to be nodes that relay transactions, but I think it's a bad idea to just ignore nodes that don't
12:48 < wumpus> cfields: right
12:49 < sdaftuar> wumpus: yeah i think we can tolerate some level of blocksonly peers, but not all of our outbounds
12:49 < wumpus> for IBD it definitely doesn't matter
12:49 < sdaftuar> i'm not sure where to draw the line
12:49 < wumpus> sdaftuar: agreed
12:49 < wumpus> (it ignores transactions during IBD, after all)
12:50 < cfields> sdaftuar: agree that it's something that should be handled, though.
12:50 < MarcoFalke> Heh, so it would be helpful to connect to blocksonly in IBD 
12:50 < cfields> s/handled/tolerated/
12:50 < kallewoof> 50/50 for tx relaying nodes, anything-goes for blocksonly nodes?
12:51 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: well, except some people use blocksonly as a kind of "super low bandwidth mode" :P
12:51 < wumpus> well if you enable pruning too...
12:51 < warren> perhaps many using blocksonly would be happy with erlay
12:51 < MarcoFalke> I hope they don't accept incoming then
12:52 < warren> hope isn't a defense
12:52 < MarcoFalke> At least o
12:53 < MarcoFalke> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/reduce-traffic.md
12:53 < MarcoFalke> Listen is mentioned as second step, blocksonly as 4th
12:54  * MarcoFalke getting tea ...
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12:54 < warren> I dunno about other people but I had blocksonly=1 on one node listening even before it was in a stable release.
12:55 < gleb> warren: You should tell sdaftuar your ip, perhaps you were the node he connected to :)
12:55 < warren> I'd be surprised if I was the only
12:56  * sdaftuar is done with this topic if we want to move on
12:56 < MarcoFalke> #action create brainstorming issue to not forget about it
12:56 < tryphe> looking for a relabel, and some brainstorming around file handle counts, if possible: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16003 :)
12:57 < fanquake> Don’t think there are any more proposed topics.
12:57 < fanquake> End meeting?
12:58 < MarcoFalke> tryphe: What label do you want?
12:58 < wumpus> #endmeeting
12:58 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jul 18 19:58:02 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:58 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-07-18-19.00.html
12:58 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-07-18-19.00.txt
12:58 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-07-18-19.00.log.html
12:59 < sdaftuar> btw if anyone is interested, i think i've made a lot of progress on refactoring our code to support package relay.  Review welcome! #16400 / #16401
12:59 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16400 | [refactor] Rewrite AcceptToMemoryPoolWorker() using smaller parts by sdaftuar · Pull Request #16400 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:59 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16401 | Package relay by sdaftuar · Pull Request #16401 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:59 < tryphe> MarcoFalke, hmm, not sure. probably bug/refactoring/resource usage/brainstorming
13:00 < kallewoof> luke-jr: if you need anything from me on https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/803 let me know. I believe I answered your statement in https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/803#discussion_r304880606
13:01 < aj> MarcoFalke: ping re: #16328 btw?
13:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16328 | rpc: Tidy up reporting of buried and ongoing softforks by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #16328 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:01 < tryphe> MarcoFalke, ty :)
13:01 < MarcoFalke> aj: I lost interest in that at least temporarily
13:02 < achow101> is there a wallet meeting tomorrow?
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13:06 < aj> MarcoFalke: aww. i hope it rekindles soon then :)
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13:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli opened pull request #16420: QA: Fix race condition in wallet_encryption test (master...2019/07/wallet_enc_test_fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16420
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13:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #16415: Get rid of PendingWalletTx class (master...pr/nopend) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16415
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13:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #16415: Get rid of PendingWalletTx class (master...pr/nopend) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16415
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14:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt opened pull request #16421: Conservatively accept RBF bumps bumping one tx at the package limits (master...2019-07-lightning-policy-bump) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16421
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14:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt closed pull request #16323:  Call ProcessNewBlock() asynchronously (master...2019-07-background-pnb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16323
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14:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt closed pull request #16324: Get cs_main out of the critical path in ProcessMessages (master...2019-07-peerstate-initial-moves) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16324
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17:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] zenosage opened pull request #16422: test: remove redundant setup in addrman_tests (master...addrman_tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16422
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18:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e5abb59a9a66...89d7229c9c18
18:07 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 024ecd7 Jonas Schnelli: QA: Fix race condition in wallet_encryption test
18:07 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 89d7229 fanquake: Merge #16420: QA: Fix race condition in wallet_encryption test
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18:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #16420: QA: Fix race condition in wallet_encryption test (master...2019/07/wallet_enc_test_fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16420
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18:13 < aj> yay!
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22:31 < meshcollider> achow101: There is a wallet meeting scheduled tomorrow 
22:32 < meshcollider> But i will be on a bus so I won't be able to host it
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22:32 < meshcollider> Someone else want to volunteer?
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22:57 < kallewoof> Would it be horrible to remove the assume valid stuff from bitcoin core? It feels like signature validation is pretty fast these days.
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23:24 < mryandao> why not set the default to off instead?
23:25 < sipa> kallewoof: really?
23:26 < sipa> i think it's around a week of CPU time to verify all historical signatures
23:26 < sipa> on a modern x86 cpu
23:27 < sipa> if you have 32 cores that's perhaps acceptable
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23:39 < kallewoof> It's that big of a difference? I must have misheard numbers then.
23:55 < sipa> it's 50 microseconds or so per signature check
23:56 < sipa> assuming a billion sigcheck (rough guess) in the chain, that's 5 days of CPU time (divided by the number of threads to get real time)
23:57 < mryandao> is there a plot that tracks number of sigcheck ops to date?
23:57 < jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: are you sure CCACHE_SIZE is the right directive: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/.travis.yml#L49?
23:58 < jonasschnelli> maybe it's travis special 
23:58 < jonasschnelli> But it looks like that the ccache env var would be CCACHE_MAXSIZE (instead of CCACHE_SIZE) https://ccache.dev/manual/3.4.html#_cache_size_management
--- Log closed Fri Jul 19 00:00:14 2019