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02:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #18220: psbt: AnalyzePSBT set next to FINALIZER when all inputs need finalizing (master...2020/02/analyze_psbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18220
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06:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dangershony opened pull request #18223: Add new filer type p2wpkh to blockfilterindex (master...nutrino-p2wpkh-filters) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18223
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06:34 < provoostenator> Random thought: why doesn't Git have SegWit, so you can pre-ACK a rebase? :-)
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07:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/eae48ec84c4d...e5753fa4e808
07:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cbd345a Sebastian Falbesoner: test: test OP_CSV empty stack fail in feature_csv_activation.py
07:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 09f706a Sebastian Falbesoner: test: check for OP_CSV empty stack fail reject reason in feature_csv_activ...
07:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5ffaf88 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: eliminiated magic numbers in feature_csv_activation.py
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07:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17921: test: test OP_CSV empty stack fail in feature_csv_activation.py (master...20200113-test-check-for-empty-stack-op_csv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17921
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08:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #18224: Make AnalyzePSBT next role calculation simple, correct (master...analyze_psbt_role_simple) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18224
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08:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #18220: psbt: AnalyzePSBT set next to"finalizer" when all inputs need finalizing (master...2020/02/analyze_psbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18220
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09:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18225: util: Fail to parse empty string in ParseMoney (master...2002-utilMoney) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18225
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09:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs closed pull request #18214: wallet: Give slightly more understandable advice when needing -fallbackfee (master...fallback_msg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18214
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09:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e5753fa4e808...73cfa070e5e4
09:40 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c72a11a Yancy Ribbens: test: Add cost_of_change parameter assertions to bnb_search_test
09:40 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 73cfa07 MarcoFalke: Merge #18195: test: Add cost_of_change parameter assertions to bnb_search_...
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09:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18195: test: Add cost_of_change parameter assertions to bnb_search_test (master...add-coinselection-cost-of-change-test-cases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18195
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10:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/73cfa070e5e4...5ad80bec3f31
10:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3d9b41e fanquake: build: add --enable-determinism configure flag
10:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5ad80be Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #18135: build: add --enable-determinism configure flag
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10:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18135: build: add --enable-determinism configure flag (master...no_insert_timestamp_ld) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18135
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10:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jkczyz closed pull request #17557: util: Refactor message hashing into a utility function (master...2019-11-hash-message) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17557
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11:00 < achow101> wallet meeting?
11:00 < meshcollider> Wallet meeting time, does anyone have topics?
11:00 < meshcollider> #startmeeting
11:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Fri Feb 28 19:00:40 2020 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
11:00 < meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball ariard digi_james amiti fjahr 
11:00 < meshcollider> jeremyrubin emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
11:00 < kanzure> hi
11:00 < achow101> hi
11:00 < provoostenator> hi
11:01 < jonatack> hi
11:01 < meshcollider> We have quite a few PRs very close to merge, so I'll go through them today
11:01 < meshcollider> Topics?
11:02 < achow101> descriptor normalization? (not really wallet though)
11:02 < provoostenator> topic suggestion multisig wallet creation
11:04 < achow101> multisig wallet creation?
11:05 < provoostenator> #18142
11:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18142 | Coordinate multi-sig wallet · Issue #18142 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:06 < provoostenator> I'm trying to come up with a (file) format that can be used to setup a multisig wallet.
11:06 < provoostenator> So far I was able to implement something in JSON. 
11:06 < provoostenator> I plan to write a script that can convert HWI output to that format...
11:06 < achow101> I feel like this is achievable using miniscript policies
11:06 < achow101> the only issue being determining the threshold
11:06 < provoostenator> Yes, that's what it uses
11:07 < provoostenator> There is a global policy, thresh_m
11:07 < provoostenator> And then each signer gives a sub policy
11:07 < provoostenator> Which are then combined into a wallet policy
11:07 < provoostenator> In my example it's the most trivial policy possible, because in practice most walelts can only do a regular multisig of pubkeys
11:08 < provoostenator> But the format allows for as complex a (sub)policy as you want, if wallets understand it.
11:09 < achow101> it would be preferable to be able to compose, and recursively compose, arbitrary miniscript policies
11:09 < meshcollider> Isn't that what hes saying
11:09 < provoostenator> Yes, minus the recursive bit
11:09 < meshcollider> When would recursive composition be useful
11:09 < sipa> miniscript policies can be composed, but the resulting (optimal) scripts aren't a composition of the constituent policies
11:10 < sipa> provoostenator: what fo you need beyond miniscript policies in your format?
11:10 < provoostenator> Correct, but for dumb wallets I'm thinking of a policy "compiler" that is extremely dumb
11:10 < provoostenator> So that the end result can only be check_multisig
11:11 < achow101> meshcollider: I was thinking something like participant_1 is really a multisig of participant_4 and 5
11:11 < achow101> but that sub policy hasn't been constructed yet
11:11 < provoostenator> Here's tesnet example: https://gist.github.com/Sjors/c7342cb27a7cf5f2d35469bb06eae4f4
11:12 < achow101> what's not clear to me is why we need a file format?
11:13 < provoostenator> Well, so far it's just a JSON format, doesn't ahve to be a file
11:13 < achow101> can't you just pass around a miniscript policy, maybe with placeholders, and let people add things to it?
11:13 < provoostenator> But it's something you can pass around
11:13 < provoostenator> It contains sub policies for each signer
11:13 < provoostenator> And keys
11:13 < provoostenator> And optionally a friendly name and info about capabilities
11:14 < provoostenator> One of the participants can collect that info and combine it.
11:14 < provoostenator> And then figure out the overall policy, miniscript and descriptor. And then send that back to the participants
11:15 < provoostenator> It would be nice if miniscript supported actual placeholders though
11:15 < achow101> I guess what I'm asking is why can't you just pass around a single miniscript policy string that people modify
11:15 < provoostenator> Then you can announce the overal policy _before_ collecting info from indiviual signers.
11:16 < provoostenator> Oh I see, that's possible too, but it requires that participants actually can parse miniscript, which I'm not assuming
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11:16 < provoostenator> Simple string concatenation is enough to handle the format I have so far.
11:16 < instagibbs> oh hi
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11:17 < meshcollider> Is the assumption that all the participants are completely trustworh
11:17 < meshcollider> Trustworthy*
11:17 < achow101> but participants have to be able parse miniscript at the end anyways, no?
11:17 < provoostenator> meshcollider: there's room for arbirary fields, so they don't have to be
11:17 < achow101> you have to trust participants to not mess with other participant's policies
11:17 < provoostenator> There's also room for e.g. musig related info, not something that would fit in a miniscript policy that you pass around
11:18 < meshcollider> achow101: idk if that's an assumption we want to make? 
11:18 < instagibbs> meshcollider, sure seems like something an attacker might do
11:19 < achow101> meshcollider: well at the end, you can verify whether you are still in the policy
11:19 < achow101> and under what conditions your sub policy would be reached
11:19 < achow101> that's the point of miniscript
11:19 < sipa> provoostenator: the participants need to be able to reason about the policy of the final descriptor that comes out
11:19 < sipa> miniscript enables that
11:19 < provoostenator> You probably have to check the first receive address via some other channel to make sure everyone is looking at the same policy
11:20 < sipa> without generic script.reasoning logic like that i don't think what you're trying is secure
11:20 < provoostenator> Miniscript enables it in the general case.
11:20 < achow101> provoostenator: but for musig, and taproot in general, I would expect there to be different miniscript things for that
11:20 < provoostenator> But in the simple case you can still reason about thresh(2,pk(3442193e),pk(bd16bee5))
11:20 < instagibbs> I think spelling out exactly what you're enabling and protecting against would help for your PoC
11:20 < sipa> sure
11:20 < provoostenator> I'm trying to make it useful pre-miniscript, but in a forward compatible format.
11:21 < sipa> i suspect getting people to adopt a file format will be harder and slower than integration of miniscript :)
11:21 < provoostenator> instagibbs: personally I'm happy if it can do m-of-n with devices that I initially trust
11:21 < sipa> especially when its usefulness is extremely likited before that poijt in time
11:21 < instagibbs> provoostenator, ok, that we can reason about with nothing too fancy :)
11:21 < instagibbs> miniscript really does need network effects to be worth it
11:22 < provoostenator> Yes, the ad hoc format used by ColdCard does the trick
11:23 < instagibbs> meanwhile I think pressuring hww devs to support things like display xpub, register some sorta descriptor like thing, is the best thing to do
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11:23 < meshcollider> True
11:23 < instagibbs> gets you usable n-of-m at least
11:23 < provoostenator> So ColdCard registers xpubs, I don't think any other hww does anything similar
11:23 < instagibbs> provoostenator, indeed, btchip says it's on the roadmap(no convincing needed at least)
11:24 < achow101> I would prefer people to just use miniscript and then compose policies within a miniscript policy itself, rather than a file format
11:24 < provoostenator> This may be a chicken-egg thing where people want a standard first, but a standard is hard to develop without practical experience.
11:24 < provoostenator> achow101: first thing we'd need for that is xpub & origin support in descriptors
11:25 < provoostenator> And ideally placeholder support, so a signer knows where they can insert stuff
11:25 < sipa> it's already there?
11:25 < achow101> in miniscript you mean?
11:25 < sipa> (xpub and origin support)
11:25 < provoostenator> sipa on your site I could only add pk(fingerprint)
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11:26 < provoostenator> Or you mean your PR?
11:26 -!- bitcoin-git [~bitcoin-g@x0f.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
11:26 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact opened pull request #18226: refactor: Consolidate unnecessary base58 interfaces (master...2020-02-base58) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18226
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11:26 < achow101> I expect that the existing xpub, origin, and general KEY expression stuff in descriptors will be in miniscript
11:26 < sipa> provoostenator: ah you mean in miniscript
11:26 < provoostenator> yes
11:26 < sipa> the compiler just passes through whatever key expressions you use
11:27 < sipa> into the descriptor outout
11:27 < provoostenator> So e.g. wallet 1 starts and wants to invite 1 more wallet
11:27 < sipa> it trats them as strings
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11:27 < provoostenator> Wallet 1 announces thresh_m(2, c_pk(xpub...),FREE_SPOT_FOR_YOU)
11:28 < provoostenator> And then wallet 2 fills in that spot,
11:29 < sipa> the hard part is letting wallets verify that the resulting script/descriptor includes the policy they want
11:29 < sipa> which isn't implemented in my c++ miniscript code
11:29 < sipa> rust-miniscript may
11:29 < achow101> sipa: I believe rust-miniscript lets you "pull up" a miniscript to the policy
11:29 < instagibbs> "they want" seems like another patch of thorns 
11:30 < achow101> andytoshi also said it was trivial to do so
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11:32 < sipa> yeah, it is
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11:33 < instagibbs> not sure what "pull up" means exactly but I'll defer that to me actually learning miniscript
11:33 < sipa> instagibbs: compiler goes from policy to miniscript
11:33 < sipa> "pull up" means going the other direction
11:33 < sipa> that step is easy
11:33 < achow101> "decompile miniscript"
11:33 < sipa> but then reasoning about the policy may not be
11:34 < instagibbs> i see, you mean someone brings compiled miniscript, you can graft it in, sure
11:34 < sipa> no
11:34 < instagibbs> ohhh sorry misreading
11:34 < instagibbs> way over-reading what achow said, ignore
11:34 < sipa> it's just about: someome gives you a script, figure out what it "does", semantically
11:35 < instagibbs> yes
11:36 < sipa> like... someone "included" your policy in a compiled script
11:36 < meshcollider> Because you don't only want to check your spending condition, you really need to check no other paths have been added that shouldn't be there
11:36 < sipa> maybe they combined it with an and(X,false)
11:36 < sipa> meshcollider: indeed
11:37 < instagibbs> "should be" lots of worms in cans ;P
11:37 < instagibbs> n-of-m is good or bad depending on who is in the set
11:37 < sipa> or did they compile it into a ridiculously inefficient script?
11:39 < sipa> i think what may be generically possible is where you have a super-policy super(A,B,C) that is agreed upon out of band (e.g. 2-of-3 multisig)
11:39 < sipa> and then let participants fill in their own A, B C
11:40 < sipa> the composability of policies means that you generally shouldn't care about what others' A B and C are
11:40 < meshcollider> Isn't that what provoostenator did anyway
11:40 < meshcollider> Well, limiting super = thresh
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11:41 < instagibbs> Provided you're talking to the right folks gathering A,B,C, I think so :)
11:41 < sipa> the hard part in this case is where does the super-policy come from
11:41 < provoostenator> meshcollider: not limiting the policy, but even limiting the compiler
11:42 < provoostenator> *not only
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11:47 < meshcollider> Alright achow101 do you want to talk about descriptor normalisation now
11:48 < achow101> sure
11:48 < meshcollider> I think the multiwallet needs more thought out of meeting
11:48 < meshcollider> Multisig wallet*
11:48 < instagibbs> (topic for coredev)
11:48 < achow101> we can add it to kanzure's list of discussion topics
11:49 < kanzure> okay
11:49 < achow101> I kind of tried to do this descriptor xpub normalization in #18163
11:49 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18163 | descriptors: Use xpub at last hardened step if possible by achow101 · Pull Request #18163 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:49 < achow101> closed it in favor of the xpub cache, but I think it might still be useful to do
11:50 < achow101> basically if we get a descriptor with a xprv and a bunch of hardened steps, then we can make an equivalent descriptor which has the xpub at the last hardened step and the hardened steps and that xprv become the origin info
11:52 < achow101> we lose the ability to round trip such descriptors, but I think it's still useful to be able to do this for things like exports
11:52 < provoostenator> That seemed sane to me
11:53 < achow101> we can also go a step further and do it to all descriptors with xpubs, just derive as far as possible
11:53 < achow101> it's all the same at the end, just might be confusing to users
11:53 < meshcollider> Derive even the non-hardened steps and just have the  /* at the end?
11:54 < achow101> yeah
11:54 < provoostenator> I find hardened a more intuitive place to cut off
11:54 < provoostenator> It also keeps the xpub in the expected place for BIP44/49/84 style descriptors
11:54 < meshcollider> Yeah I don't think there's any point to doing work that anyone else could do anyway
11:55 < achow101> it has the effect of making the xpub cache part of the descriptor
11:55 < achow101> since in xpub cache, we derive as far as possible and cache that xpub
11:55 < provoostenator> I think that cache policy should just be internal
11:56 < meshcollider> Yep I can see maybe why xpriv/hardened -> xpub is useful but not other than that
11:56 < achow101> less derivations to do
11:57 < provoostenator> That seems like a tiny benefit compared to loading a wallet and expanding 1000 keys
12:00 < achow101> so with just the hardened derivation, that's something people think we should still try?
12:00 < achow101> I think the main concern is that we lose information
12:01 < sipa> it's only human-relevant information
12:01 < sipa> as the semantics of the normalized descriptor are the same as the original
12:02 < achow101> right, but if getdescriptorinfo returned a normalized descriptor, that would probably confuse people
12:02 < sipa> but i'm still hesitant to just always do it
12:02 < sipa> agree
12:02 < sipa> it seems unnecessary, except perhaps in certain opt-in cases
12:03 < achow101> the main use is imports into our wallet, and exporting watch only to other wallets
12:03 < sipa> but you could do it at export time?
12:04 < achow101> it would require access to private keys
12:04 < achow101> it'd be nice if it didn't
12:04 < sipa> or to the xpub cache?
12:05 < achow101> with the xpub cache, it would give the xpub at the end of derivation
12:05 < sipa> which is just as good, no?
12:05 < achow101> still confusing to users
12:05 < sipa> not more so than an xpub in the middle?
12:05 < achow101> and possibly to wallets that may try to interpret the derivation info to figure out change/not-change
12:06 < provoostenator> Especially the latter
12:06 < sipa> the origin info would still be there
12:06 < achow101> (I suspect that would be something that wallets try to do)
12:06 < sipa> which would have that information
12:06 < provoostenator> E.g. with a ColdCard you register an xpub, which covers receive and change
12:06 < provoostenator> So it would be confused by a desciptor that has the xpub 1 level down
12:07 < provoostenator> Then again, you can't really export a single descriptor anyway
12:07 < achow101> I suppose we can bring this up again once we get to allowing descriptor exports
12:07 < sipa> yeah
12:08 < provoostenator> I wouldn't mind being able to describe receive and change  in  single descriptor, but that's another can of worms.
12:08 < sipa> yes :)
12:08 < achow101> xpub cache covers what we need to do now, so we can think on this later :)
12:08 -!- bitcoin-git [~bitcoin-g@x0f.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5ad80bec3f31...9aa8145bc024
12:08 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 54be4e7 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: check specific reject reasons in feature_csv_activation.py
12:08 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9aa8145 MarcoFalke: Merge #17959: test: check specific reject reasons in feature_csv_activatio...
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12:09 < instagibbs> oh we're 8 minutes over
12:09 -!- bitcoin-git [~bitcoin-g@x0f.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17959: test: check specific reject reasons in feature_csv_activation.py (master...20200118-test-check-reject-reasons-in-feature-csv-activation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17959
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12:10 < achow101> any other topics?
12:10 < instagibbs> PSBT GUI review: do it
12:11 < gwillen> apropos of that actually instagibbs, I saw you commented about showing change addresses
12:11 < gwillen> I am pretty fuzzy on the story of "safely detecting change addresses" in this setting
12:11 < achow101> Change detection is always fuzzy
12:11 < provoostenator> On the send dialog you can know which one is change
12:11 < provoostenator> On the load PSBT I wouldn't bother for now.
12:12 < instagibbs> in normal sends it ellides those outputs... but PSBT signing is not the typical case, in many cases 
12:12 < instagibbs> provoostenator, right
12:12 < gwillen> yeah, my assumption was not to bother for signing, and to show all addresses
12:12 < provoostenator> It's probably some property on rcp that you can look at, the normal confirm dialog knows.
12:13 < sipa> you can show the net balance effect a transaction has on your wallet, independent of knowing what is change or not, right?
12:13 < gwillen> not when signing, no wallet
12:13 < achow101> no wallet?
12:13 < sipa> ah, without wallet you can't even talk about the concept of change
12:13 < instagibbs> it might be a dumb key store
12:13 < instagibbs> achow101, 
12:13 < gwillen> well, hm, I guess I am assuming that in general, when signing offline, you are just a dumb key store, yeah
12:13 < gwillen> you may not have the blockchain, and you may only have keys to some subpart of whatever inputs you're signing for
12:14 < sipa> gwillen: well a sane key store (one that can verify what it's signing) must have a pre-registered descriptor set
12:14 < achow101> For change detection, you should be able to just ask the wallet if a particular destination IsChange and do your change detection like that
12:14 < achow101> but that assumes the PSBT belongs to that wallet
12:14 < sipa> gwillen: if you don't have that, talking about balance or change is meaningless
12:14 < gwillen> sipa: do we have a sane key store, though, in the sense
12:14 < achow101> gwillen: we will soon(tm)
12:14 < sipa> gwillen: well, our wallet is
12:14 < gwillen> in particular, the case I am most interested in is signing for a multisig
12:15 < provoostenator> Right, fun fact about the current keystore: getrawchange address wil give you an address from the receive chain
12:15 < gwillen> in which case there is a lot more information needed before one could safely conclude that some output is "change"
12:15 < sipa> my point is just that if you want to do signing without such knowledge (which is a totally reasonable thing to do in some cases), you must accept that that means there is no such thing as change detection and shouldn't bother
12:15 < gwillen> *nods*
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12:15 < instagibbs> gwillen, well, is today's wallet IsChange would fail for any multisig address
12:15 < gwillen> anyway instagibbs this was apropos of your comment asking why we display the change
12:15 < instagibbs> if its a descriptor wallet change-ness is stored
12:15 < instagibbs> anyways, it's fine for now
12:16  * sipa -> lunch
12:16 < gwillen> the answer is that I'm assuming in almost any interesting case we can't tell
12:16 < gwillen> and so there's no point in special-casing the boring cases where we can
12:16 < instagibbs> gwillen, disagree I think?
12:16 < achow101> gwillen: I don't think that's an assumption in descriptor wallets
12:16 < achow101> since in descriptor wallets you import the descriptor and mark it as change or not
12:16 < gwillen> well we don't have those yet, so
12:16 < gwillen> when we have those I will revisit :-)
12:17 < sipa> i don't see what descriptor wallets have to do with this, actually
12:17 < sipa> either you have a wallet, and you can ask what it would consider change
12:17 < sipa> or you don't
12:17 < achow101> you can do the same change detection stuff now as you would in the future, it's exposed in the same way
12:17 < achow101> we just won't detect multisig or funny script things as change
12:17 < instagibbs> `IsChange()` works for random imports already AFAIK, you just can't put in keypool
12:17 < meshcollider> Anyway I think let's end the official meeting 
12:18 < meshcollider> #endmeeting
12:18 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri Feb 28 20:17:59 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:18 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-02-28-19.00.html
12:18 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-02-28-19.00.txt
12:18 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-02-28-19.00.log.html
12:18 < instagibbs> i.e., importmulti, mark it as internal address, now it'll be marked as `IsChange` internally
12:18 < gwillen> hmmmm, so if I have a Core wallet that I use offline, with a watchonly copy that I use online, with PSBT, change detection should actually Just Work
12:18 < gwillen> well hm, though, with a normal Core wallet you do not have public derivation
12:18 < instagibbs> obviously if you're thinking of a HD chain multisig it probably needs descriptor wallets to be ez
12:18 < gwillen> so you can't meaningfully do this
12:19 < instagibbs> right this only works with one-off keys
12:19 < gwillen> I'm trying to think of a scenario where you can meaningfully do this
12:19 < gwillen> and have it work without shenanigans
12:19 < gwillen> well with one-off keys there is no such thing as change, unless you're reusing addresses
12:20 < gwillen> unless you mean like, one-off exporting your keypool watchonly, and then doing it again manually each time you run out
12:20 < achow101> gwillen: what I'm saying is that you should use IsChange and we will later refine what IsChange returns true for
12:20 < instagibbs> yes there is, when manually creating tx
12:20 < instagibbs> I agree it's not generally usable
12:20 < gwillen> I am not going to use IsChange if there is not a single case where it actually works right now
12:20 < gwillen> untested codepaths break
12:20 < achow101> it will work for single key things
12:20 < instagibbs> ^
12:20 < gwillen> so far it appears to me that we have failed to produce a case where that would be useful
12:21 < achow101> your standard single hardware wallet case
12:21 < instagibbs> I literally tested your branch and was befuddled when i was confronted with this
12:21 < achow101> using importmulti, I import a bunch of receive keys into the keypool, and a bunch of change keys
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12:21 < achow101> when I do all the psbt things after signing, I look at the gui and it's showing me the change address
12:21 < gwillen> you just manually import them, and then import again when you run out?
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12:22 < achow101> IsChange would tell you that the change address is change because I had imported those into the change keypool
12:22 < instagibbs> import 10k or whatever yes
12:22 < achow101> there's your usecase
12:22 < gwillen> I mean, I'm happy to support this if it is something that anybody would actually do
12:22 < instagibbs> I do it!
12:22 < gwillen> heh, ok
12:22 < achow101> me too!
12:22 < instagibbs> thanks <3
12:22 < gwillen> do you object to still displaying the change, but marking it as change
12:22 < achow101> that's fine with me
12:23 < instagibbs> if it's marked change somehow it's fine
12:23 < gwillen> :+1:
12:23 < instagibbs> more info for a power user is better
12:23 < gwillen> I will also add a note, if we do not detect change, explaining that change is a nebulous concept
12:23 < gwillen> and think about whether I should also include it even if we do
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12:23 < gwillen> (just explaining that anything we detect as change is change, but we may not detect all things a user would consider change)
12:24 -!- bitcoin-git [~bitcoin-g@x0f.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9aa8145bc024...7a266a679d66
12:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7bf4ce4 Sebastian Falbesoner: refactor: test/bench: dedup SetupDummyInputs()
12:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7a266a6 MarcoFalke: Merge #18173: refactor: test/bench: deduplicate SetupDummyInputs()
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12:24 < instagibbs> descriptor change should be super straight forward and recoverable in an offline setting
12:24 -!- bitcoin-git [~bitcoin-g@x0f.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18173: refactor: test/bench: deduplicate SetupDummyInputs() (master...20200218-refactor-dedup-SetupDummyInputs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18173
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12:24 < instagibbs> and transparent with respect to your work
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13:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue (master...2002-testFixRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18228
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13:48 < andytoshi> sipa: achow101: the term is lift, not "pull up" :)
13:48 < andytoshi> for going from a miniscript (or descriptor, or policy, or simplicity program, or whatever) to an abstract policy
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13:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/7a266a679d66...1a51cd1ac5a0
13:52 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dc9305b fanquake: random: don't special case clock usage on macOS
13:52 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1a51cd1 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #17800: random: don't special case clock usage on macOS
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13:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #17800: random: don't special case clock usage on macOS (master...random_macos_clocks) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17800
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13:53 < achow101> andytoshi: I think the term you're looking for is "elevator" :p
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13:53 < andytoshi> loll
13:53 < andytoshi> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(mathematics) i think it's self-evident from this wiki page why the term lift is appropriate
13:55 < fanquake> I reckon "Tor functor" is the most interesting term in that article.
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13:56 < sipa> andytoshi: lift is one partof what we were talking about... not sure if we have a term for "analysing if i like a policy"
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13:57 < sipa> and thanks... i forgot the term :)
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14:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1a51cd1ac5a0...eca4d8ef6aff
14:03 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 16d6113 Jonas Schnelli: Refactor message transport packaging
14:03 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eca4d8e MarcoFalke: Merge #16562: Refactor message transport packaging
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14:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16562: Refactor message transport packaging (master...2019/06/net_refactor_2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16562
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14:16 < andytoshi> sipa: well, "analyzing like a policy" is done (in rust-bitcoin) by first lifting to a policy, then doing the analysis :)
14:16 < andytoshi> because it would've been a looot of typing to implement all the analysis directly on the miniscript type
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14:18 < sipa> andytoshi: obviously
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14:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact closed pull request #18226: refactor: Consolidate unnecessary base58 interfaces (master...2020-02-base58) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18226
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14:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact opened pull request #18229: Drop unused MACH time headers (master...2020-02-mach-headers) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18229
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17:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/eca4d8ef6aff...902796093235
17:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fab30b6 MarcoFalke: util: Remove unused ParseMoney that takes a c_str
17:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8888461 MarcoFalke: util: Fail to parse empty string in ParseMoney
17:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9027960 fanquake: Merge #18225: util: Fail to parse empty string in ParseMoney
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17:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18225: util: Fail to parse empty string in ParseMoney (master...2002-utilMoney) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18225
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19:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Mentors4EDU opened pull request #18230: Merge pull request #1 from bitcoin/master (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18230
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19:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Mentors4EDU closed pull request #18230: Merge pull request #1 from bitcoin/master (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18230
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