--- Log opened Wed Jun 17 00:00:15 2020
--- Day changed Wed Jun 17 2020
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01:47 < gleb> GitHub also does something interesting to sipa here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19109/commits
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01:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5cafb46fef3f...3faf3429e905
01:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa09ec8 MarcoFalke: Remove unused variables
01:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa193c6 MarcoFalke: Add missing includes to fix compile errors
01:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3faf342 fanquake: Merge #19299: refactor: Remove unused vars, Add missing includes
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01:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19299: refactor: Remove unused vars, Add missing includes (master...2006-removeUnusedVars) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19299
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02:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3faf3429e905...09da0e46bf83
02:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 47b49a0 Alex Willmer: contrib: Fix SyntaxWarning in Python base58 implementation
02:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 09da0e4 fanquake: Merge #19287: contrib: Fix SyntaxWarning in Python base58 implementation
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02:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19287: contrib: Fix SyntaxWarning in Python base58 implementation (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19287
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02:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/09da0e46bf83...62d863f9157d
02:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c3538f4 Andrew Chow: walletdb: Make SpliWalletFilePath non-static
02:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f6fc5f3 Andrew Chow: walletdb: Add IsBDBWalletLoaded to look for BDB wallets specifically
02:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 25a6557 Andrew Chow: walletdb: move IsWalletLoaded to walletdb.cpp
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02:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider merged pull request #19290: wallet: move BDB specific classes to bdb.{cpp/h} (master...move-bdb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19290
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03:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #19300: wallet: Handle concurrent wallet loading (master...2020-06-loadwallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19300
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03:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/62d863f9157d...9a482d360401
03:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f8213c0 Hennadii Stepanov: Add means to handle negative capabilities in thread safety annotations
03:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9a482d3 MarcoFalke: Merge #19249: Add means to handle negative capabilities in the Clang Threa...
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03:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19249: Add means to handle negative capabilities in the Clang Thread Safety annotations (master...200611-nc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19249
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03:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9a482d360401...38389dd3a0cf
03:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e81942d gzhao408: [test] logging and style followups for bloomfilter tests
03:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master aeb9fb4 gzhao408: [test] wait for disconnect_p2ps to be reflected in getpeerinfo
03:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9a40cfc gzhao408: [refactor] use waiting inside disconnect_p2ps
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03:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19252: test: wait for disconnect in disconnect_p2ps + bloomfilter test followups (master...test-disconnect-p2ps-wait) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19252
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03:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/38389dd3a0cf...39bd9ddb8783
03:38 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa02b47 MarcoFalke: refactor: Use AbortError in FatalError
03:38 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 39bd9dd MarcoFalke: Merge #19295: refactor: Use AbortError in FatalError
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03:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19295: refactor: Use AbortError in FatalError (master...2006-refactorAbortError) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19295
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03:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #19301: build: don't warn when doxygen isn't found (master...no_warn_doxygen_missing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19301
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04:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #19302: test: Check that peer is disconnected for bad buffered message (master...2006-badBuffer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19302
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06:03 < jonatack> Following the addition of mypy to the functional test dependencies in bd7e530 and 5d77549, do the various build docs or others need to be updated?
06:04 < fanquake> 1 addition was made  in #19172
06:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19172 | test: Do not swallow flake8 exit code by hebasto · Pull Request #19172 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
06:04 < jonatack> until I installed it, running the linters was showing "./test/lint/lint-python.sh: line 105: mypy: command not found"
06:05 < jonatack> when running ./test/lint/lint-python.sh
06:06 < jonatack> fanquake: yes, that is the second commit i mentioned. Wondering if the build docs or test docs should include mypy.
06:08 < fanquake> isn't that in the test docs
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06:08 < fanquake> I'm not sure the build docs need to mention an optional python linter requirement.
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06:58 < jonatack> fanquake: thanks
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08:02 < achow101> Anyone else seeing "/usr/bin/ld: bitcoin_wallet-bitcoin-wallet.o:(.data.rel.ro+0x8): undefined reference to `InitError(bilingual_str const&)'" on master?
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08:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] troygiorshev opened pull request #19304: test: Check that message sends successfully when header is split across two buffers (master...2020-06-test-partial) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19304
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08:17 < fanquake> achow101: I'm not seeing any issues at the moment.
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08:18 < achow101> hmmm
08:20 < achow101> if I revert the latest merge, it works
08:20 < achow101> and i've tried both make clean and git clean -fdx
08:20 < fanquake> are you passing anything to configure?
08:21 < achow101> only --enable-debug
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08:22 < achow101> ah, dropping --enable-debug "fixes" the problem
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08:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #19305: doc: add C++17 release note for 0.21.0 (master...c++17_0_21_0) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19305
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08:44 < provoostenator> achow101: on macOS I can build a freshly cleaned master just fine: ./configure --enable-debug --with-incompatible-bdb --enable-werror
08:45 < provoostenator> Maybe wipe ccache?
08:45 < provoostenator> I'm a big "git clean -dfx" fan, it's faster and more thorough than "make clean", but you already tried that.
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08:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #19302: test: Check that peer is disconnected for bad buffered message (master...2006-badBuffer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19302
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08:47 < jonatack> achow101: yep, saw it even after make distclean, make clean
08:49 < jonatack> provoostenator: agree on -dfx, though that wipes my bdb dir as well if it's in there
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08:52 < achow101> provoostenator: clearing ccache doesn't help
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09:06 < provoostenator> achow101: on Ubuntu 20.04 I get the same error
09:06 < provoostenator> Don't we have at least one Travis instance running with --enable-debug?
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09:10 < provoostenator> Reverting #19295 helps for me as well
09:10 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19295 | refactor: Use AbortError in FatalError by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #19295 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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09:14 < provoostenator> paging hebasto
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09:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #19306: refactor: Replace RecursiveMutex with Mutex in CTxMemPool (master...200616-mempool-mx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19306
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09:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #19308: wallet: BerkeleyBatch Handle cursor internally (master...bdb-internal-cursor) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19308
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09:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #19309: Fix link error with --enable-debug (master...200617-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19309
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09:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #19310: wallet: BerkeleyDatabase make BerkeleyDatabase::Create, CreateMock, and CreateDummy non-static functions (master...bdb-refactor-create) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19310
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10:02 < elichai2> Is there any site that stores an index to the logs here? i'm trying to search of a conversation a while ago (CC kanzure)
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10:04 < jeremyrubin> elichai2: I think there used to be but not sure :/ Maybe best bet is to download all and grep?
10:06 < elichai2> Hmm aren't these individual txt files? Hmm so if no one knows of any I'll write a short script to download them all and then I'll grep over them
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10:15 < kanzure> elichai2:  http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/
10:15 < kanzure> grep works fine
10:15 < elichai2> That's the logs, not an index. But ok I guess I'll download them all and grep 
10:16 < kanzure> one moment
10:16 < kanzure> elichai2: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/archives/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-06-17.zip
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10:29 < elichai2> kanzure: Thanks! 
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11:06 < achow101> I think the descriptor wallets project (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/12) can be closed. unless we want to add the sqlite stuff to it, but I think that would be better to go into it's own project
11:07 < achow101> also hardware wallet stuff could be in a project?
11:18 < luke-jr> ugh, Electrum requires TLS now :/
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11:48 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/39bd9ddb8783...35ed88f187c9
11:48 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa195d4 MarcoFalke: test: Add missing sync_blocks
11:48 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 35ed88f MarcoFalke: Merge #19298: test: Add missing sync_blocks
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11:48 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19298: test: Add missing sync_blocks (master...2006-syncBlocks) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19298
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12:09 < luke-jr> #proposedmeetingtopic (for wallet meeting) revert #6550 (conceptually) - merkle branches stored in the wallet would be useful for pruned nodes
12:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6550 | Do not store Merkle branches in the wallet. by sipa · Pull Request #6550 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:10 < achow101> luke-jr: #proposedwalletmeetingtopic
12:12 < achow101> (not like it really matters)
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12:15 < luke-jr> #proposedwalletmeetingtopic revert #6550 (conceptually) - merkle branches stored in the wallet would be useful for pruned nodes [w/ watch-only wallets]
12:15 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6550 | Do not store Merkle branches in the wallet. by sipa · Pull Request #6550 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:32 < instagibbs> luke-jr, would be nice even as an option, elements/liquid could use it
12:42 < luke-jr> instagibbs: apparently it's an issue for Stratum/Electrum servers too
12:46 < sipa> i think it would make sense to optionally enable that
12:46 < sipa> also, storing the fee for wallet transactions may make sense
12:47 < luke-jr> hmm, not sure
12:47 < sipa> you may care about fee/rate of a transactions that you're not the only participant in
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12:47 < luke-jr> sipa: after they confirmed?
12:47 < sipa> before
12:48 < luke-jr> we should probably save [unconfirmed?] input txs too :/
12:49 < luke-jr> and that even for normal wallets
12:50 < sipa> hmm, possibly
12:50 < luke-jr> after all we have a financial interest in seeing those confirm too
12:52 < phantomcircuit> iirc the wallet used to think that it included the dependent transactions (just one level) but it didn't actually fill them so they were just default CTransctions
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12:53 < luke-jr> looks like we had previous txs until 0.9
12:53 < luke-jr> and merkle branches until 0.19
12:53 < luke-jr> phantomcircuit: o lol
12:55 < sipa> yes, i vaguely remember
12:55 < sipa> i think it should just store those dependent txn in the wallet, if at all
12:55 < sipa> rather than as members in each of the in-wallet descendants
12:55 < sipa> to avoid exponential blowup
12:56 < luke-jr> maybe
12:56 < luke-jr> refcounted perhaps
12:57 < luke-jr> feels like CMerkleTx might have been the best way to do it too :/
13:02 < sipa> why refcounted? in order to clean them up afterwards?
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13:12 < luke-jr> sipa: yes; I suppose unnecessary if we do switch to logdb or such
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13:12 < sipa> i don't see how that's related
13:12 < luke-jr> but I don't see much progress on that front despite discussion
13:13 < luke-jr> it's related because you can't clean up an append-only file ;)
13:13 < luke-jr> and refcounting there would just increase the storage for each increment/decrement
13:13 < sipa> logdb would occasionally sweep to delete overwritten entries
13:13 < sipa> otherwise it'd grow unboundedly
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13:13 < sipa> but i have no interest in reviving that; i think sqlite is a much better option
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13:15 < sipa> if we want to clean up not-mine dependencies after they've confirmed we could just do an occasionally garbage collection too, regardless of storage format
13:17 < luke-jr> sipa: unbounded growth is what I expected from logdb, but ok
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13:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] renepickhardt opened pull request #19314: refactor: Use uint16_t instead of unsigned short (master...akh_uint16_t) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19314
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14:02 < phantomcircuit> sipa, unless the wallet can make use of backend indexing i dont really see the point of using sqlite
14:05 < sipa> phantomcircuit: bluntly, i think bdb is crappy unmaintained software that was never designed for our use cases - and we've worked around that by being stuck to a 10y old version and various hacks with flushing
14:05 < sipa> maybe crappy is too strong a term; it's just not what we need
14:06 < sipa> sqlite does - it does more than that too, but it's extremely well tested maintained software, with very strong compatibility guarantees
14:08 < sipa> logdb... i don't think we have the intent of putting in the manpower required to maintain/qa/test across platforms and whatnot, even if it's a very simple thing
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14:11 < phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah agreed, the logdb stuff mostly ran into issues with abstractions not making it easy to decouple things
14:14 < sipa> achow101 is interested in using some of the indexing features... i'm less convinced about that, but at least having that possibility is a nice to have bonus
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14:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] amitiuttarwar opened pull request #19315: [tests] Allow outbound & block-relay-only connections in functional tests.  (master...2020-06-test-outbounds) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19315
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14:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] amitiuttarwar opened pull request #19316: [net] Cleanup logic around connection types (master...2020-06-conn-refactor) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19316
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18:19 < jeremyrubin> hebasto: is their a motivation for replacing recursivemutex with mutex?
18:19 < sipa> recursive mutexes are evil
18:20 < sipa> mutices?
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18:21 < jeremyrubin> (context #19306)
18:21 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19306 | refactor: Replace RecursiveMutex with Mutex in CTxMemPool by hebasto · Pull Request #19306 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
18:21 < sipa> there is probably a place for them, like goto
18:21 < sipa> but almost always, they just lead to badly designed abstractions
18:22 < sipa> a clear design should have code that operates outside the critical section, and code that operates inside
18:22 < sipa> but not code that works in both
18:22 < gwillen> my impression is that the usual better approach is to have Foo() which calls Foo_locked(), and callers who already hold the mutex can call the latter directly
18:22 < sipa> indeed
18:23 < jeremyrubin> I agree with this in general, but am trying to understand the specific issues we're solving in the mempool  rather than general API design
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18:23 < jeremyrubin> It seems to get rid of recursive mutex in favor of our own implementation of it
18:23 < jeremyrubin> which seems worse
18:23 < sipa> oh
18:23 < jeremyrubin> So I'm trying to understand hebasto's motive in the PR to be able to provide constructive feedback :)
18:23 < sipa> i have not looked at the code
18:24 < sipa> eh, i agree - that change isn't a step in the right direction
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18:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] andrewtoth closed pull request #18941: validation: Persist coins cache to disk and load on startup (master...persist-coinscache) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18941
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18:33 < luke-jr> sipa: recursive mutexes just guarantees that <this> code always operates inside, no matter the scope of the lock
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18:34 < luke-jr> gwillen: what good is adding a wrapper for every method that just takes a lock before calling the real one?
18:35 < sipa> luke-jr: making the separation between inside/outside critical section clear
18:35 < jeremyrubin> I think recursive mutexs and lock annotations have a slight redundancy 
18:35 < jeremyrubin> run time v.s. compile time lock checking
18:35 < jeremyrubin> run time should be strictly more flexible, but also permits some undesirable behaviors 
18:35 < sipa> (non-recursive mutexes are also slightly more efficient, but not enough to justify changing things just because of that imo)
18:35 < gwillen> luke-jr: recursive mutexes are often used when people want to call the same method while sometimes holding the lock it wants, and sometimes not
18:36 < gwillen> a better approach is to have two methods, and have them call the correct one
18:36 < luke-jr> sure, the lock annotations are a reasonable alternative to recursive mutex - but I don't think a wrapper for every method just to add a lock is reasonable
18:36 < sipa> luke-jr: most methods are only called in one context
18:36 < luke-jr> sipa: not all though
18:36 < sipa> fwiw, addrman has this design
18:36 < gwillen> right, the point is that you only need a wrapper for methods which are called in both contexts, not every method
18:36 < sipa> it has all code running inside the cs in the .cpp file
18:37 < luke-jr> gwillen: some abstractions would have it for most methods
18:37 < gwillen> it is relatively rare (and probably sometimes a code smell) to need this
18:37 < sipa> and then all publicly accessible code grabs the lock, and calls the internals
18:37 < gwillen> but if you do need it, having two methods is better than using recursive mutexes, the existence of which is a mistake
18:38 < gwillen> (instead of having two methods, you can also take a parameter indicating whether the lock is held or not, which is how some of the code under discussion does it, but I disprefer that approach)
18:38 < luke-jr> the benefit of annotations is that you force the caller to be aware it's using a lock
18:38 < luke-jr> you lose that with wrappers
18:38 < jeremyrubin> Everyone enjoy your evenings ;) 
18:38 < sipa> gwillen: agree
18:38 < gwillen> wrappers and annotations are not mutually exclusive, you should definitely still use annotations
18:38 < luke-jr> you can't use annotations with a wrapper..
18:38 < sipa> luke-jr: huh?
18:38 < luke-jr> (unless it's a recursive mutex)
18:39 < jeremyrubin> I didn't realize this would be such a *contentious* topic
18:39 < sipa> you'd have the internal function annotated with require_lock, and and the wrapper with a lock_excluded annotation
18:39 < gwillen> is this a feature of the particular annotations that happen to be available in the bitcoin core codebase? It's certainly not a feature of annotations in general.
18:39 < luke-jr> sipa: okay, but that defeats the point
18:39 < sipa> luke-jr: i don't see how?
18:39 < sipa> this is my preferred approach
18:39 < luke-jr> sipa: the code calling the wrapper no longer self-documents/makes the developer aware of using the lock
18:40 < sipa> external code should only be seeing the wrapper
18:40 < sipa> internal code should only ever call the non-wrapped function
18:40 < sipa> thus providing a perfectly clear separation between the two
18:40 < luke-jr> and what if the external code needs to hold the lock longer than just the call?
18:41 < sipa> rewrite the code :p
18:41 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: use an external lock?
18:41 < sipa> (i know that's not always possible - but in many cases it is)
18:41 < luke-jr> eg, with a wallet, it's pretty reasonable to want atomic operations
18:42 < luke-jr> doing multiple things to the wallet with the lock held
18:42 < luke-jr> you *could* just move the entire logic into the wallet, but that's a bad design in some cases
18:42 < sipa> luke-jr: yeah, that's a good example of an exception
18:43 < gwillen> btw jeremyrubin it's not switching to a homebrewed mutex, if you chase down the types it's switching from AnnotatedMixin<std::recursive_mutex> to AnnotatedMixin<std::mutex>, which seems like the right thing
18:43 < sipa> gwillen: i think it's referring to the "if locked then unlock else assertlocknotheld" pattern that i see some times
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18:44 < jeremyrubin> sipa: gwillen: yes, that's what I meant
18:44 < sipa> luke-jr: i think a reasonable approach for that may be having a publicly visible lock for synchronizing a consistent view, which is distinct from the internal wallet's lock (which protects internal data structure correctness, not externally visible consistency)
18:44 < gwillen> well, adding an argument for whether the mutex is held is equivalent to a wrapper, just uglier, which I think is what's going on here
18:44 < gwillen> I dislike it because it means you are not using RAII
18:45 < sipa> gwillen: indeed
18:45 < gwillen> and if you take an exception the world ends
18:46 < jeremyrubin> I think it's basically getting rid of a recursive mutex for code that's still designed to take a recursive mutex
18:46 < gwillen> it's better than a true recursive mutex because it's not possible to recurse by accident, you have to declare at call time which behavior you want (although better if you had to declare statically at compile time)
18:46 < sipa> it looks like that
18:46 < jeremyrubin> The correct refactor would be to make the code not do anything fancy with locks, or to just leave it
18:47 < jeremyrubin> gwillen: I think the chances of a bug or error in custom logic is higher than a recursive mutex
18:47 < jeremyrubin> accidental recursion seems unlikely...
18:47 < jeremyrubin> and accidental recursion would be a bug lock or no
18:48 < gwillen> (sorry I mean, accidental mutex recursion, that is, calling a function while holding a mutex, not expecting the callee to also lock it, resulting in the callee violating the caller's invariants)
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18:48 < gwillen> (this is the fundamental problem of recursive mutexes)
18:49 < gwillen> (and I assume the motivation behind hebasto's refactor)
18:49 < jeremyrubin> Ah sure. But the code in the callee could also just not lock at all and modify the protected variables?
18:49  * jeremyrubin pines for rust
18:50 < gwillen> but that would be an obvious bug in the callee, whereas with recursive mutexes you can have a caller and a callee that both appear to be correct by local inspection (they take a mutex while modifying the protected variables)
18:50 < gwillen> but if the caller calls the callee in the middle of doing so, the result can violate the mutex invariant surprisingly
18:51 < jeremyrubin> would it be? it depends on how pervasive locking annotations are in your code
18:51 < jeremyrubin> It's entirely reasonable to write a helper which doesn't assert which locks it expects
18:51 < gwillen> Well, it would be nice if it weren't. :-)
18:51  * jeremyrubin pines for rust
18:51 < luke-jr> gwillen: it'd be nice if C/C++ added non-scoping conditionals :P
18:52 < gwillen> anyway that's the story of the theoretical basis for getting rid of recursive mutexes, as I understand it... but adding annotations is probably a higher priority, yeah.
18:52 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: Rust needs to fix its problems with bootstrap and shared libraries
18:53 < jeremyrubin> c++ needs to fix... everything else basically :p
18:54  * sipa grabs popcorn
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18:56 < luke-jr> C++ isn't broken, even if it doesn't provide features some might idealise
18:58 < jeremyrubin> anyways bootsrap stuff I think is more in dongcarl's weelhouse so I'll tag out for him ;)
19:00 < luke-jr> IMO it's still in Rust developers' court; they haven't made it practical
19:01 < luke-jr> and frankly seem to be actively trying to make it difficult
19:01 < gwillen> my understanding is that bootstrapping from a C compiler using mrustc is annoying but functional, and guix has this working
19:01 < luke-jr> gwillen: oh? it does?
19:01 < fanquake> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2018/bootstrapping-rust/
19:01 < luke-jr> that's new progress I hadn't heard of
19:01 < luke-jr> that's 2018..
19:02 < luke-jr> and still convoluted
19:02 < luke-jr> (things have gotten worse since 2018)
19:03 < gwillen> it looks to me like they've gotten better, mrustc can build rust 1.29 now, so the entire chain of rustc-rustc bootstrapping from that page is outdated
19:03 < gwillen> I don't know whether guix takes advantage of this, though, I have not used it
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19:04 < fanquake> I'd also like to know what has "gotten worse"
19:05 < luke-jr> fanquake: Rust seems to make no effort to be backward compatible, so ~every release adds another step you have to compile
19:05 < luke-jr> eg, you can't just mrustc a stable rustc, then use that to get the latest rustc
19:05 < gwillen> in fact, assuming it still works, mrustc appears to ship a shell script that demos bootstrapping from a C compiler through mrustc and rustc 1.29.0 to rustc 1.30.0 (it stops there, but it's a proof of concept that you can build later versions)
19:06 < gwillen> I assume you do not actually have to crawl one version at a time, but it would be nice to have a compatibility matrix to see how many compiles it takes
19:06 < luke-jr> it would be nice if Rust devs stopped breaking the language compatibility :p
19:08 < fanquake> There's also https://github.com/dtolnay/bootstrap, which seems to crawl through each version
19:09 < gwillen> if you just wnat a proof of concept, probably easier to do that than to work out the full matrix
19:09 < gwillen> oh, I do like the point made in the README here, which is that once there is full reproducibility, you don't need to do this every time, you just need to do it once and check that the hash of the result matches the official build
19:13 < phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the issue of doing atomic things like that is more or less analogous to database consistency issues
19:13 < phantomcircuit> no real solution here just a thought
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19:31 < sipa> i was curious what the bootstrapping cycle for modern GCC is like
19:37 < sipa> based on https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html, it seems K&R C compiler -> GCC 3.3 -> GCC 10 could work
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19:37 < sipa> potentially with GCC 4.7 in between (unless how good C++98 support in GCC 3.3 was)
19:38 < gwillen> I assume C/C++ (as implementd in GCC) has changed substantially in that time, so the real issue is not so much language change, as the compiler being overly aggressive in taking advantage of the latest features of the language
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19:38 < gwillen> which GCC is presumably fairly careful to avoid, if you can really bootstrap it that directly
19:39 < sipa> yeah, GCC switched to C89 in GCC 3.4, to C++98 in GCC 4.8, to C++11 in GCC 11
19:40 < sipa> they're slower in adopting language changes than bitcoin core :p
19:40 < fanquake> heh
19:40 < sipa> though, that's an unfair comparison with rust, which just changes much more rapidly by virtue of being younger
19:41 < fanquake> Somewhat related, there's also a shoutout to Carl in here: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/guix-further-reduces-bootstrap-seed-to-25/
19:41 < fanquake> The Guix bootstrap seed is now even smaller
19:41 < fanquake> Targeting another 50% reduction during the next round of work
19:47 < sipa> nice
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20:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesgmorgan opened pull request #19317: Add a left-justified width field to log2_work component for a uniform debug.log output (master...jmorgan-updatetipfmt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19317
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20:44 < luke-jr> sipa: compilers *should* be very slow with adopting new features
20:44 < luke-jr> for anything else, you can always just upgrade the compiler so long as the new compiler builds
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22:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/35ed88f187c9...931035b60830
22:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa84edb fanquake: build: don't warn when doxygen isn't found
22:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 931035b fanquake: Merge #19301: build: don't warn when doxygen isn't found
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22:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19301: build: don't warn when doxygen isn't found (master...no_warn_doxygen_missing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19301
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22:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18942: doc: Increase minimum required GCC to 5.1 (master...gcc_5_1_for_codecvt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18942
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