--- Log opened Thu Aug 20 00:00:56 2020
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02:36 < jonatack> shesek: rebased PR 19405 per our irc discussion yesterday http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2020-08-19.html#l-375
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05:14 < shesek> jonatack, very nice, thank you!
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07:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/70d7ddbcbbea...27eeb0337b08
07:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 667bc7a Fabian Jahr: rpc: Add getindexinfo RPC
07:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c447b09 Fabian Jahr: test: Add tests for getindexinfo RPC
07:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 124e1ee Fabian Jahr: doc: Add release notes for getindexinfo RPC
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07:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19550: rpc: Add getindexinfo RPC (master...index_rpc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19550
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07:49 < fjahr> Review beg for #19601, would be good to get it in both for #17977 and #19055. It has two ACKs but went a bit stale the last 2 weeks.
07:49 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19601 | Refactoring CHashWriter & Get{Prevouts,Sequence,Outputs}Hash to SHA256 (Alternative to #18071) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19601 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:49 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17977 | Implement BIP 340-342 validation (Schnorr/taproot/tapscript) by sipa · Pull Request #17977 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:49 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19055 | Add MuHash3072 implementation by fjahr · Pull Request #19055 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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09:47 < theStack> is anyone here familiar with BIP 152? i try to understand the impact of receiving a sendcmpct(0) message ("low bandwidth relaying") from a peer
09:47 < theStack> looking at the code, it seems that a node happily serves cmpctblocks as response to getdata(CMPCT), even without having received sendcmpct(0) before
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09:48 < theStack> so the only purpose of sendcmpct(0) is deactivating a previous sendcmpct(1) -- what did i miss?
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09:55 < instagibbs> theStack, IIRC "low bandwidth" means you are telling peer to only send headers, then you can respond with a getdata for the cmpctblk
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09:55 < instagibbs> high bandwidth means just send the compact version
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09:56 < satoshin> Hello
09:57 < satoshin> the bitcoincore.org website is legit? I mean it is owned by core developers or it is just a stunt?
09:57 < satoshin> I own the https://bitcoin.foundation website and wish to create a list of core developers
09:59 < theStack> instagibbs: okay, i was just wondering if nodes that never received sendcmpct(0) should reply to getdata for cmpctblks or not
09:59 < theStack> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0152/protocol-flow.png <- it seems like the right case (C) works without the "sendcmpct(0)" as well
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10:04 < satoshin> I actually trying to figure out the way to not to have Bitcoin node on public IP addresses at all. The real problem with Bitcoin is that nodes are stored on a IP address and not on devices of the participants. I did created a fork of ZeroNet (https://zeronet.io) but I did failed to share the blockchain between two nodes on this network. 
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10:05 < luke-jr> satoshin: soliciting donations on behalf of people without their knowledge or permission looks pretty scammy
10:06 < satoshin> luke-jr what are you talking about? 
10:06 < luke-jr> satoshin: "Donate Bitcoin to the Bitcoin Foundation by sending Bitcoin donations to the Human Rights Foundation."
10:07 < satoshin> That is correct
10:07 < luke-jr> no, it isn't
10:07 < satoshin> and why you think that?
10:07 < luke-jr> well, first of all, you're not the Bitcoin Foundation
10:07 < luke-jr> the Bitcoin Foundation's website is https://bitcoinfoundation.org/
10:07 < satoshin> lol
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10:08 < satoshin> You talk about the real scammers bother
10:08 < luke-jr> secondly, IIRC this "Human Rights Foundation" is itself a scam?
10:08 < satoshin> We are a Swiss human rights organization
10:08 < luke-jr> the legitimacy or not of the Bitcoin Foundation is debatable, but they are the entity
10:08 < satoshin> and we do accept Bitcoin for years pulicly
10:08 < satoshin> the New York based ultra right-wing hrf in the other hand started they website for Bitcoin to attack our finances
10:09 < satoshin> https://web.archive.org/*/hrf.org/donate-bitcoin is started in March of 2019 after that they failed to bully us with trademarks in EU and USA
10:09 < sipa> please, take this elsewhere
10:10 < sipa> this channel is for technical discussion on bitcoin core development
10:10 < satoshin> Better just not talk about
10:10 < satoshin> I know sipa
10:10 < satoshin> so I come here for a full list of code developers
10:10 < satoshin> can you give me that list? 
10:10 < satoshin> core*
10:10 < achow101> satoshin: look at github
10:10 < sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors
10:11 < satoshin> Thank you
10:11 < sipa> for questions on how to use bitcoin core like your question above, i suggest https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com (some people here including me are pretty active there)
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10:12 < satoshin> I also would like to ask why a peer-to-peer software is developed on a centralized (censorable) network like GitHub.com we can't have something else which is not subject of abuse? 
10:13 < achow101> because decentralized code repos don't work
10:13 < luke-jr> sorry, thought this was #bitcoin
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10:15 < satoshin> is not true https://github.com/imachug/gitcenter this is hosted on ZeroNet achow101 do is definitelly possible to develop software on a truly peer-to-peer network
10:16 < luke-jr> … that's a GitHub link
10:16 < achow101> and now you have restricted development to the 5 people willing to set it up
10:16 < sipa> satoshin: it's a good question, and something we have discussed before - but ultimately, we don't strongly rely on github - git repositories can easily be moved
10:16 < satoshin> http://127.0.0.1:43110/1GitLiXB6t5r8vuU2zC6a8GYj9ME6HMQ4t/ <--- ZeroNet link
10:16 < elichai2> Is there any reason *not* to use std::array? 
10:16 < luke-jr> satoshin: connection refused
10:17 < sipa> and github's ecosystem is very valuable for gathering participation
10:17 < satoshin> because it is pointed to localhost port 43110 which is requires you to install ZeroNet
10:17 < luke-jr> ZeroNet doesn't appear to even be available for Gentoo
10:17 < satoshin> it is written in python
10:17 < satoshin> you can run even on Android
10:18 < sipa> we're not going to make contributors participate through zeronet
10:18 < sipa> sorry
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10:18 < satoshin> this sounded very authoritarian sipa 
10:19 < sipa> there are legitimate concerns about github's centralization, and we have to be watchful for those
10:19 < sipa> but this discussion isn't helpful
10:19 < luke-jr> ZeroNet doesn't even look decentralised
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10:19 < achow101> the more steps it takes to get new people to contribute means that there will be fewer contributors. we need more people to contribute and making it more difficult to contribute in the name of decentralization is not helpful
10:19 < satoshin> you basically saying we not going to develop a peer-to-peer electronic cash system on a peer-to-peer network which is absurd in my opinion. you make a decision about where Bitcoin will be developed like you own the copyright to Bitcoin or something
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10:20 < elichai2> (trying to figure out why will people use fresh hell code like `void f(uint8_t (&arr)[N])`) 
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10:20 < satoshin> Copyright (c) 2009 Satoshi NakamotoPermission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copyof this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to dealin the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rightsto use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sellcopies of the
10:20 < satoshin> Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software isfurnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included inall copies or substantial portions of the Software.THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS ORIMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO
10:20 < satoshin> THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THEAUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHERLIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS INTHE SOFTWARE.
10:20 < achow101> sipa is stating a fact, not making a decision
10:20 < satoshin> This is from bitcoin version 0.1.0
10:20 < sipa> satoshin: we have discussed alternatives for github many times among contributors and maintainers
10:20  * luke-jr goes to figure out why #19614 seems to be completely broken and merged
10:21 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19614 | util: use HAVE_FDATASYNC to determine fdatasync() use by fanquake · Pull Request #19614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:21 < sipa> satoshin: copyright has nothing to do with it, you are free to create your own branch that you maintain anywhere
10:21 < sipa> elichai2: that's a good question...
10:21 < satoshin> That is correct but feels very restricted to contribute to the core
10:22 < luke-jr> satoshin: I am happy to open pull requests for any contributors who don't want to sign up for GitHub
10:22 < phantomcircuit> satoshin, please don't copy paste things like that
10:23 < satoshin> okay
10:23 < sipa> elichai2: i could imagine that there is a use for accepting string literals of compile-time known length
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10:23 < sipa> and interaction with legacy code, i guess
10:25 < sipa> satoshin: as luke said, if somehow github isn't an option for whatever reason for someone who wants to contribute, you're always welcome to use email or other mechanisms to send a patch to other contributors, or maintainers
10:26 < satoshin> I also uploaded the Bitcoin white paper dating from October 3 2008 to here: https://archive.org/details/bitcoin-a-peer-to-peer-electronic-cash-system I was astonished that this is not shared on bitcoin.org! What I uploaded to archive is what Satoshi Nakamoto announced on https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2008-October/014810.html and
10:26 < satoshin> not what shared on bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
10:26 < sipa> if that were needed on a regular basis, that would be a good reason to reconsider the use of github to host things
10:26 < sipa> satoshin: open an issue: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org
10:27 < achow101> satoshin: it's right here: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
10:27 < achow101> literally the same url as in the email
10:27 < satoshin> that is not the original white paper archow101 
10:27 < sipa> (bitcoin.org is owned and operated indepedently from the bitcoin core project)
10:27 < harding> achow101: I think he means that the papers differ.  Nakamoto edited the version served from Bitcoin.org at some point.
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10:28 < elichai2> sipa: yeah compile time length string literals is nice 
10:28 < satoshin> Exactly. The white paper which is quoted in https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2008-October/014810.html is here: https://archive.org/details/bitcoin-a-peer-to-peer-electronic-cash-system
10:28 < sipa> satoshin: getting very off topic
10:29 < satoshin> Fine, I go open that issue on https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org
10:30 < satoshin> They don't have IRC channel? 
10:30 < theStack> just out of curiosity, what is the difference in the whitepaper versions? e-mail seems different
10:30 < sipa> i don't know
10:31 < satoshin> theStack there are some differences if you read it, even page number differs not to mention the creation date which is October 3 2008 weeks before he announced it
10:34 < satoshin> Actually at one point https://archive.org/details/bitcoin-a-peer-to-peer-electronic-cash-system was uploaded to Bitcoin.org according to his announcement. I actaully do have Bitcoin v 0.1.0 also which is compressed by Satoshi for release on 7 January 2009, 4 days after the genesis block. 
10:34 < harding> For Bitcoin nostalgia, #bitcoin is a better room.
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10:41 < satoshin> Just to be clear actually Satoshi made a mistake in January of 2009 and I was able to track him down. I know who is him. He is over 50 now, lives in the UK and has children. He also loves Sushi. Beleive me I do know who is Satoshi Nakamoto and I can tell you that much that the Bitcoin white paper was not his first white paper. I did tested all his
10:41 < satoshin> publications with JGAAP (Java Graphical Authorship Attribution Program) and it is confirmed that he wrote the Bitcoin white paper. Satoshi made a huge mistake when started promoting Bitcoin with Hal Finney and this allowed me Zoltan Konder to track him down. I will announce his identity on https://bitcoin.foundation in the coming days! 
10:44 < satoshin> If you want to know before who is Satoshi Nakamoto or you think is the best to not to share his identity I would like to read your arguments by email: contact@bitcoin.foundation (Satoshi Nakamoto is one person and he still lives until this day in the UK) I swear to God. Again the real reason why he used a Japanese name is because he loves Sushi! :)
10:44 < satoshin> Which is kind of funny. 
10:44 < sipa> please leave, now
10:45 < satoshin> LOL you afraid that Satoshi Nakamot returns sipa and your fame ends? Well that exactly going to happen my friend. I do know who is him and you my friend will go to the trash.. you become useless right after the entire world will know his name
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10:48 < luke-jr> so fyi, fdatasync is broken in master until #14501 is merged
10:48 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14501 | Fix possible data race when committing block files by luke-jr · Pull Request #14501 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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10:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr closed pull request #15421: torcontrol: Launch a private Tor instance when not already running (master...tor_subprocess) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15421
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11:15 < jeremyrubin> Anyone have any opinions on standardizing (I know, I know... build first then standardize) some different ways to refer to TXID?
11:16 < jeremyrubin> It might be kinda nice for human I/O to have something that is encoded in fewer chars with error correcting
11:16 < jeremyrubin> and can refer to either a TXID or an outpoint in the same length
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11:17 < jeremyrubin> you could imagine using a bech format to encode these.
11:18 < jeremyrubin> Supporting software would have to keep a larger index around for full support
11:20 < sipa> what do you mean by fewer chars?
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11:22 < jeremyrubin> E.g., a TXID hex encoded is 64 characters
11:23 < jeremyrubin> a COutpoint hex encoded is 72 characters
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11:30 < jeremyrubin> using a bech32 encoding would be shorter than hex and you'd get error correction
11:30 < sipa> it'd be 60 characters with bech32 at least
11:31 < sipa> and it's not really designed for error correction
11:31 < jeremyrubin> err detection
11:31 < sipa> i feel it's one of those things that's just a decade too late to change
11:31 < sipa> it would have made sense, but adding a new format now is just going to confuse everyone
11:33 < luke-jr> woohoo #17356 is now hack-free
11:33 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17356 | RPC: Internal named params by luke-jr · Pull Request #17356 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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11:37 < jeremyrubin> sipa: do we even have any standard format for TXIDs/COutpoints?
11:37 < sipa> for txids, definitely
11:37 < sipa> outpoints less so i think; some places use txid-idx, some places used txid:idx
11:38 < jeremyrubin> And are idxs hex encoded or integer?
11:39 < sipa> decimal, iirc
11:39 < jeremyrubin> lol
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11:40 < jeremyrubin> so might not be too late to do a std format for outpoints if it's a split ecosystem (motivation -- I was looking for how to properly handle user input and didn't have anything to go on)
11:40 < wumpus> is there a way we can make "good first issue" only available for frequent contributors?
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11:40 < wumpus> people are using it for everything it's kind of getting out of hand https://twitter.com/GoodFirstIssues
11:40 < jeremyrubin> available? visisble? taggable?
11:41 < wumpus> yes
11:41 < jeremyrubin> not sure what you're asking
11:41 < jeremyrubin> Only frequent comitters can solve them?
11:41 < wumpus> to be able to make issues like that
11:41 < sipa> wumpus: or make the bot only report them if they come from frequent contributors?
11:42 < wumpus> yes, that would be another possibility
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11:42 < jeremyrubin> sounds like a good first issue to fix the bot
11:42 < wumpus> but it would be better to just hide the option I think, non-contributors don't know what it's for
11:43 < sipa> where are the available labels even configured?
11:44 < sipa> ah https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/labels
11:44 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE/good_first_issue.md
11:45 < wumpus> but I guess there's no way to set permissions
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11:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #19770: RPC: getpeerinfo: Deprecate "whitelisted" field (replaced by "permissions") (master...deprecate_whitelisted) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19770
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11:45 < sipa> can we perhaps remove the "good first issue" label from that template?
11:45 < sipa> and have it be assigned by maintainers instead of it's not bogus
11:45 < sipa> ... more manual work though :s
11:46 < wumpus> hmm maybe that might be the best compromise
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11:50 < sipa> what are permissions on labels, actually?
11:50 < sipa> can someone who opens an issue set them arbitrarily?
11:52 < luke-jr> I don't think I can change labels :/
11:52 < luke-jr> quite annoying tbh
11:52 < luke-jr> at least I don't see any way to do it
11:52 < sipa> oh, ok, so the issue is just that the template comes with a preset label
11:53 < luke-jr> is there a reason to have a template for good first issue?
11:54 < luke-jr> doesn't seem like soemthing an issue opener would typically be qualified to evaluate
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11:57 < wumpus> it's just for convenience, to have form items necessary to be filled in for a good first issue
11:58 < wumpus> and yes for normal label setting (that doesn't come with a template) it's restricted to people with 'triage' permission IIRC
11:59 < luke-jr> oh, it's separate from commit?
11:59 < luke-jr> any reason not to just give access to everyone usual then?
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12:00 < wumpus> yes there is a permission between 'read' and 'write' which is enough to change labels but not enough to commit to the repository (unfortunately, "write" is still required to put issues in projects)
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 20 19:00:47 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < jonasschnelli> hi
12:00 < kanzure> hi
12:00 < sipa> hi
12:00 < ariard> hi
12:00 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@69.4.234.76] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:00 < troygiorshev> hi
12:00 < hebasto> hi
12:00 < sipsorcery> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james
12:00 < wumpus> amiti fjahr jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
12:01 < achow101> hi
12:01 < luke-jr> wow, those 'hi's seem coordinated
12:01 < instagibbs> hi
12:01 < fjahr> hi
12:01 < luke-jr> did someone make a cronjob to 'hi'?
12:01 < sipa> we were all waiting wumpus to ring the bell
12:01 < luke-jr> heh
12:01 < amiti> hi 
12:01 < wumpus> there have been no proposed topics this week, any last minute ones?
12:01 < wumpus> hehe
12:01 < jamesob> hi
12:01 < luke-jr> wumpus: maybe giving everyone triage is worth a discussion? shrug
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12:02 < wumpus> nah
12:03 < elichai2> hi
12:03 < ajonas> hi
12:03 < wumpus> I think it will only be confusing if everyone adds "needs backport" labels and such, I don't think we have any problkem with labeling, usually fanquake is fast enough that by the time I click the link here an issue is already labeled
12:03 < wumpus> xD
12:04 < sipa> i have the same impression, and i'm in a completely different timezone...
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12:05 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:05 < jeremyrubin> hi
12:05 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 there's 10 blockers, a bugfix and 3 chasing concept ACK
12:05 < wumpus> is there anything you want to add or remove or replace?
12:05 < hebasto> please replace #18710 with #19710 as the former is based on the latter now
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18710 | Add local thread pool to CCheckQueue by hebasto · Pull Request #18710 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19710 | bench: Prevent thread oversubscription and decreases the variance of result values by hebasto · Pull Request #19710 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < achow101> Since #19077 is waiting on #19619, replace it with that?
12:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19619 | Remove wallet.dat path handling from wallet.cpp, rpcwallet.cpp by ryanofsky · Pull Request #19619 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19077 | wallet: Add sqlite as an alternative wallet database and use it for new descriptor wallets by achow101 · Pull Request #19077 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < wumpus> hebasto: done
12:07 < hebasto> thanks
12:07 < luke-jr> #14501 might be a candidate
12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14501 | Fix possible data race when committing block files by luke-jr · Pull Request #14501 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < jnewbery> wumpus: I believe people with the inbetween permission can move PRs and issues in and out of projects
12:07 < wumpus> achow101: done
12:07 < luke-jr> especially since we have a regression in master that is now fixes
12:08 < wumpus> jnewbery: not with triage last time we checked! might have changed ofc
12:09 < wumpus> luke-jr: ok added
12:10 < wumpus> any other topics?
12:11 < wumpus> #endmeeting
12:11 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Aug 20 19:11:32 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:11 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-08-20-19.00.html
12:11 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-08-20-19.00.txt
12:11 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-08-20-19.00.log.html
12:14 < michaelfolkson> What is the thinking around any other topics? Is it literally throw anything out there and people can leave if they want or should topics be of interest to most attendees so that we value everyone's time?
12:14 < luke-jr> depends on how many topics we have I think
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12:15 < michaelfolkson> Ok that's fair
12:16 < achow101> IMO an "any other topics" that's at the start of a meeting is an invitation to talk about almost anything
12:17 < achow101> at the end of the meeting, it's more of "something important that we should discuss"
12:18 < michaelfolkson> To throw some things out there then we were discussing switching from Qt widget to Qt QML on the GUI. This would bloat the binary so interested in whether this is most likely an overall Concept NACK (that was our guess)
12:18 < wumpus> as long as it has to doe with bitcoin core development, preferably something you're working on, it's okay
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12:19 < wumpus> I don't have any principled issues about it, if you can demonstrate a better UI using QML, I think it's okay
12:20 < wumpus> please don't do it if you just want an animated bitcoin logo or something
12:20 < wumpus> like the increase of binary size of dependencies needs to be worth the improvement in UX
12:21 < michaelfolkson> Yeah understood. May not pursue it but it is useful sometimes to put feelers out and see whether something is a clear Concept NACK or not
12:21 < achow101> michaelfolkson: is there a relevant issue that has some existing discussion?
12:21 < wumpus> and not just 'fancyness'
12:21 < achow101> what are the benefits of QML?
12:21 < michaelfolkson> The GUI discussion is just getting started so no not yet achow101
12:21 < wumpus> see #16883 I think
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12:21 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16883 | WIP: Qt: add QML based mobile GUI by icota · Pull Request #16883 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:22 < wumpus> it's better suited for mobile atleast
12:22 < michaelfolkson> On the call with some potential new contributors (designers) just trying to work out exactly what the constraints were likely to be
12:23 < michaelfolkson> I won't name people at this stage but one designer had a lot of experience with QML
12:23 < wumpus> qt widgets are very oldschool desktop, it's almost impossible to use them on android conveniently for example
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12:23 < achow101> ah, so it makes it look like we're an electron app :p
12:24 < wumpus> it's definitely much more efficient than electron
12:24 < luke-jr> wumpus: is there an actual reason for that, or just Qt not implementing mobile for widgets, preferring to rewrite GUI logic for QML? <.<
12:24 < luke-jr> does QML require a JS engine?
12:24 < michaelfolkson> Yeah as I understand
12:24 < wumpus> QML is used in a lot of embedded systems like kiosks and in-flight entertainment systems etc
12:24 < wumpus> yes, I think so
12:24 < luke-jr> ugh
12:25 < sipa> is it really a JS engine?
12:26 < sipa> or is it compiled to C++?
12:26 < wumpus> it's really a scripting engine
12:26 < wumpus> which also means you can iterate the GUI without recompiling, which can be great
12:26 < sipa> The JavaScript environment provided by QML is stricter than that in a web browser. For example, in QML you cannot add to, or modify, members of the JavaScript global object. In regular JavaScript, it is possible to do this accidentally by using a variable without declaring it. In QML this will throw an exception, so all local variables must be explicitly declared. See JavaScript Environment 
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12:26 < sipa> Restrictions for a complete description of the...
12:26 < sipa> restrictions on JavaScript code executed from QML.
12:27 < wumpus> it's also 'local only'
12:27 < wumpus> you can only open images from the local resourcees IIRC not accidentaly from the network/internet
12:27 < luke-jr> seems like a good way to lag the UI :x
12:27 < wumpus> no, it's faster
12:27 < wumpus> uses opengl ES2 for rendering
12:27 < jonasschnelli> How about the memory footprint?
12:27 < luke-jr> how can JS be faster than C++?
12:28 < luke-jr> wumpus: Qt Widgets uses OpenGL too. But that's not a good thing :P
12:28 < luke-jr> there's no reason 2D should use OpenGL..
12:28 < jonasschnelli> And how indifferent will it look on win/Linux/Mac?
12:28 < wumpus> well it can do all kinds of fancy animations, alsao on low end hardware
12:28 < wumpus> maybe the per-frame processing happens in C++ still
12:28 < luke-jr> low end hardware without OpenGL?
12:28 < wumpus> the scipting just defines the animation
12:29 < wumpus> even the most low-end embedded crap has OpenGL ES 2 these days
12:29 < jonasschnelli> Sounds interesting... I guess it would look different then the typical system UI?
12:30 < luke-jr> wumpus: with non-free drivers maybe
12:30 < wumpus> anyhow, I didn't actually mean to defend QML, but if we reject it we should do it for proper reasons not just 'because it's a different way of doing things'
12:30 < sipa> ^
12:30 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: kinda would defeat the purpose of Qt if so
12:31 < michaelfolkson> "IMHO it's still too early to consider QML since that there are some issues regarding long operations blocking the Qt event loop." This was promag in Sep 2019
12:31 < michaelfolkson> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16883#issuecomment-532705580
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12:45 < wumpus> I agree that'[s a long-running issue, and this is just as much a problem for qt widgets though :)
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12:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #19771: net: Replace enum CConnMan::NumConnections with enum class ConnectionDirection (master...enum_conndir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19771
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13:09 < sipa> did anyone stop receiving github mail notifications ~an hour ago?
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15:18 < fanquake> sipa: I don’t think so. Seem to have plenty from drahtbot
15:22 < sipa> apparently my mail app changed semantics, and now right swiping is mark spam by default... so i had some github thread marked as spam, and subsequently all other github mails were marked as spam too
15:22 < sipa> resolved now!
15:25 < fanquake> #innovative UI
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16:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr closed pull request #19117: RPC: Add getrpcwhitelist method (master...rpc_getrpcwhitelist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19117
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 21 00:00:55 2020