--- Log opened Mon Feb 08 00:00:23 2021
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00:18 < shesek> what would you estimate to be a 'reasonable' upper bound for the time it should take bitcoind to shutdown cleanly?
00:18 < shesek> say, with a large dbcache and lots of flushing to do; or on something without much memory/ram like a raspberry
00:19 < sipa> i wouldn't be surprised if can find pathological situations (huge dbcache, slow spinning disk connected over USB2) where it takes an hour
00:21 < sipa> that's a very rough guess though, haven't really soon anything like that; several minutes i've seen
00:21 < shesek> I've personally seen 15-20 minutes, when I shutdown right after finishing IBD
00:22 < shesek> I'm configuring an init system to forcibly kill bitcoind if exiting takes too long, was thinking to give it like 30 minutes but an hour works too
00:23 < sipa> probably better to actually try rather than rely on my vague guess :)
00:24 < shesek> its a (yet another) easy node setup thing, I can't tell what specs users are going to run this on so kinda hard to have a good estimate for this
00:25 < shesek> its also a really edge-casey thing, I might never run into a long shutdown when I try
00:25 < sipa> "look man, i'm really offended that you discriminate against full nodes running on fridges"
00:27 < shesek> :)
00:27  * fanquake can't wait for bitcoind on a toaster
00:27 < shesek> what about startup? how long would you give `bitcoin-cli -rpcwait` to try before realizing its not going to happen?
00:28 < shesek> would be useful if bitcoin-cli had a timeout argument btw. I'm using the `timeout` program as a workaround
00:28 < sipa> if on the same kind of system, you crash during a very slow flush right after IBD, i think it may take even longer
00:28 < sipa> -rpcclienttimeout ?
00:29 < shesek> oh, I didn't realize this worked with -rpcwait
00:29 < shesek> isn't this the timeout for HTTP requests, while -rpcwait will be waiting without doing an http request while bitcoind is warming up?
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00:30 < sipa> i don't know
00:30 < shesek> what does rpcwait do exactly? waits for the cookie file to appear?
00:33 < fanquake> it tries to construct a request, and if an exception is thrown, it waits
00:49 < shesek> what is the worse that can happen if I use someone else's datadir (a la prunednode.today)?
00:49 < shesek> obviously I can be led to follow an invalid chain and accept non-existing coins. but will bitcoind be internally consistent? could I inspect its state via the RPC and have any assurances of what I see? say, if I check that the hash of the tip and the utxo set matches a trusted source, should this give me confidence that the datadir is valid?
00:49 < shesek> I guess there's also some potential for things like buffer overflows that might escalate into code execution, but probably not very likely?
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00:51 < sipa> shesek: if the data is entirely untrusted, i wouldn't vouch for lack of buffer overflows etc
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00:54 < shesek> and other than things like buffer overflow?
00:55 < shesek> to what extend do the sanity checks that bitcoind performs on startup give me assurance against inconsistent state?
00:58 < sipa> you really shouldn't work with untrusted local storage
00:59 < shesek> well, I don't use these things myself, but some people do. btcpay has a fastsync-by-copying-the-datadir option, and prunednode.today is also gaining popularity, I think typically alongside specter
00:59 < shesek> I'm trying to better understand the risk model this has
01:00 < sipa> :(
01:00 < sipa> tell them to not do that :(
01:01 < sipa> i mean... if you're getting the software bundled from a particular source, then it doesn't matter that the rest of the data also comes from that source of course
01:02 < shesek> not quite the same though, software is auditable by humans, a binary blob isn't
01:02 < sipa> but it'd be a lot nicer if people would help out with getting assumeutxo to move forward instead of workarounds that introduce central points of trust
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01:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8636288db130...e51f6c4dee3d
01:08 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 32cbb06 Dan Benjamin: build: build fuzz tests by default.
01:08 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e51f6c4 MarcoFalke: Merge #20936: build: build fuzz tests by default
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01:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20936: build: build fuzz tests by default (master...build-fuzz-tests-by-default) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20936
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01:13 < shesek> I agree, but these are not necessarily the same people... the btcpay devs are doing what they can within constraints to make full nodes more accessible
01:13 < shesek> its a tricky thing though. introducing more accessible middlegrounds - be it SPV validation, assumevalid, assumeutxo, client-side block filtering, datadir snapshot fastsync, whatever - can win you some people that would otherwise use worse entirely centralized solutions, but on the flip side can also encourage people who would otherwise have a fully-verified full node to be lazy and go for the easier middleground
01:13 < shesek> its really hard to say if introducing a middleground option is going to do more good or more harm
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01:32 < wumpus> luke-jr: anything wrong with https://github.com/bitcoinknots/gitian.sigs/pull/15 ?
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01:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e51f6c4dee3d...c969ab43c388
01:40 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0d39b58 Bruno Garcia: test: fix timeout decrease in feature_assumevalid
01:40 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c969ab4 MarcoFalke: Merge #21084: test: fix timeout decrease in feature_assumevalid
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01:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21084: test: fix timeout decrease in feature_assumevalid (master...fix-timeout-assumevalid) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21084
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01:43 < shesek> I'm contemplating whether I should support datadir-snapshot-based fastsync in my easy node setup thing (a bundle of bitcoind, bwt electrum server and a few other programs). I'm fairly certain that it would get more people to use it, people that would otherwise be using public electrum servers. a node initiated from someone else's datadir would be a step up for them, as unideal as it is >.<
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01:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c969ab43c388...ca85449f22cb
01:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5baff2b fanquake: build: use focal in gitian descriptors
01:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2ecaf21 fanquake: gitian: remove execstack workaround for ricv64 & powerpc64le
01:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ca85449 MarcoFalke: Merge #21036: gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0
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01:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21036: gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0 (master...gitian_bump_22_0) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21036
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01:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21110: util: remove Boost posix_time usage from GetTime* (master...no_boost_gettime) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21110
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01:47 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: #21036 wasn't deterministic yet 
01:47 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21036 | gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0 by fanquake · Pull Request #21036 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
01:48 < wumpus> not sure if that needs to be a requirement for merge but i guess it's important to doing releases
01:48 < fanquake> wumpus: I'll be following up
01:48 < wumpus> shesek: technically, copying someone elses's data directory is much more efficient, the whole, social, difficulty is chosing the 'someone else' is this case
01:51 < wumpus> shesek: these kind of proposals are as old as bitcoin itself but i don't think anyone ever solved the 'who to trust' issue, how can you have infrastructure that gives you a reasonable confidence in that a certain validation is correct, like you can probably just copy a friend's node and trust them but yo udefinitely don't want to YOLO it off the internet
01:53 < wumpus> in any case jamesob 's "assumevalid" work provides the technical infrastructure to handle this case better
01:55 < wumpus> fanquake: thanks, does it still make sense for me to upload the differing binaries?
01:55 < fanquake> wumpus: sure, if it's not too hard. I'll do some comparisons
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01:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ca85449f22cb...b401b093556f
01:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9913419 fanquake: test: remove type: comments in favour of actual annotations
01:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b401b09 MarcoFalke: Merge #21107: test: remove type: comments in favour of actual annotations
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01:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21107: test: remove type: comments in favour of actual annotations (master...just_use_typing_directly) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21107
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02:21 < wumpus> fanquake: it's trivial (just need to re-do some runs because the result has been overwritten, well anyway a good test for local determinsism) but was distracted by FOSDEM this weekend
02:22 < sipa> how was it?
02:22 < sipa> (fosdem)
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02:29 < wumpus> interesting! highlights for me were RISC-V/secure architectures (CheriBSD was interesting, a POSIX veriant using pointer capabilities for memory safety throughout), overlay networks and P2P (point of note for me was "yggdrasil" which is inspired by CJDNS but does some things differently), open source CAD tools, and update about openwifi (open software/hardware wifi)
02:32 < wumpus> also something about standards, proposed architectures for libre Trusted Execution Environments / key storage modules, anyhow i live-tooted a few things on my mastodon https://x0f.org/@orionwl might be a few interesting links
02:35 < sipa> wumpus: did you ever attend fosdem in person?
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02:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] parazyd opened pull request #21111: Improve OpenRC initscript (master...openrc-init-improve) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21111
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02:37 < wumpus> sipa: no haven't
02:37 < wumpus> plenty of times i intended to go but didn't or couldn't for reasons i guess it's off the table now
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02:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21112: ci: use Focal for macOS and Win cross builds (master...actually_use_focal_in_cirrus_ci) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21112
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02:42 < sipa> wumpus: i did, but it's been a long time
02:42 < sipa> 2005 mayve
02:43 < sipa> it's kind of underwhelming, but exactly what you expect from a free (as in beer) event organized by foss people :)
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02:49 < emzy> Will there be recordigs from FOSDEM? I missed most of Sunday.
02:53 < wumpus> sipa: heh, that's also the idea i get from it, but i kind of like the ad-hoc ness, really aimed at fostering discussion and cooperation instead of 'here, this is my work, bye' that was mostly my impression from academic conferences
02:53 < wumpus> emzy: yes the videos will be posted soon(TM)
02:54 < wumpus> emzy: will be https://video.fosdem.org/2021/
02:54 < emzy> wumpus: cool, tnx.
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04:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] domob1812 opened pull request #21114: Deduplicate some block-to-JSON code (master...getblock-dedup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21114
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05:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21115: test: Fix Windows cross build (master...210208-win) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21115
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05:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21116: build: Disable --disable-fuzz-binary for gitian builds (master...210208-fuzz) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21116
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06:09 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: #21036 was deterministic
06:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21036 | gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0 by fanquake · Pull Request #21036 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
06:10 < MarcoFalke> I checked that your hashes matched the ones of drahtbot 
06:10 < MarcoFalke> and fanquake's matched the  ones of hebasto 
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06:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21117: test: remove assert_blockchain_height (master...2102-testNoTimeout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21117
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07:47 < luke-jr> wumpus: for some reason GitHub didn't tell me about it, merged thanks
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07:54 < MarcoFalke> Oh, it is the GitHub 500 time again
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07:58 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: strange! I thought I saw mismatches (as noted in my post), but must have looked wrong then
07:59 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: Oh, maybe you are right. I didn't check *all* hashes, only a few
08:02 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: Is this an issue with the bump or a pre-exisiting one?
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08:12 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: I have never noticed it before
08:14 < wumpus> lol i was about to upload my results somewhere but have just wiped my gitian VM again because it seemed unnecessary now that they were deterministic
08:21 < wumpus> *starts another build*
08:21 < wumpus> no cache either this time
08:28 < MarcoFalke> It seems intermittently non-deterministic. I wonder if it is also non-deterministic on the same machine
08:33 < wumpus> the strangest thing for me was that some of the files matched but others didn't (even for the same OS), my impression was that especially tars were affected not zips, but that might be a by-effect
08:43 < dongcarl> Haven't been following, but is there a non-determinism problem?
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08:47 < MarcoFalke> dongcarl: Yeah, at least starting with #21036 
08:47 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21036 | gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0 by fanquake · Pull Request #21036 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
08:48 < MarcoFalke> (currently unclear if this happened earlier)
08:48 < MarcoFalke> diffoscope might tell
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10:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] amitiuttarwar opened pull request #21121: [test] Small unit test improvements, including helper to make mempool transaction (master...2021-01-unit-test-valid-tx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21121
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11:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b401b093556f...b09ad737eef6
11:38 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa36206 MarcoFalke: rpc: Return total fee in mempool
11:38 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b09ad73 MarcoFalke: Merge #20944: rpc: Return total fee in getmempoolinfo
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12:41 < sipa> j
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14:04 < wumpus> looks like i can at least fully reproduce the hashes here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21036#issuecomment-774522683  so it seems deterministic locally
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14:13 < wumpus> uploaded the four mismatching files here: https://download.visucore.com/tmp/mismatch-3ec37a517285.tar.gz  (@fanquake)
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16:04 < fanquake> wumpus: thanks
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17:58 < kallewoof> can someone with bitcoin-core rights enable cirrus CI for btcdeb repo? i can't find the option so I assume I'm not allowed
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18:00 < sipa> kallewoof: done
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18:00 < kallewoof> sipa: thanks!
18:00 < sipa> yw
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18:51 < bioverse> I have a nano ledger s with some bitcoin. I have the 24 words and wallet in a safe place. I went to https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ using a Ubuntu live from USB. I put the 24 mnemonic words and could not find any bitcoin address ever used. I freaked. I thought. Oh my god! I ordered a second brand new nano ledger s. Put the 24 words, using ledger live in a brand new laptop and my coins were there in the brand new ledger nano s. I am safe. But I have 
18:51 < bioverse> no idea why the 24 words at that offline airgapped site don't generate any used key-pairs. Maybe is SegWit address problem. I have no idea. The fisrt 20 key-pair addresses given have never been used....
18:52 < sipa> this channel is for development; you may get better help on https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com (but search for relevant questions first)
18:52 < bioverse> I know Pieter Willie
18:54 < bioverse> but any help would be greatly appreciated 
18:56 < bioverse> Sent an email to the ledger manufactor two weeks ago and got not a reply with an answer
18:57 < bioverse> Anyway, do you think bitcoin can be used in the future for time-lock encryption?
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19:06 < sipa> bioverse: no
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19:09 < bioverse> do you mean "no, I don't think that is possible" ?
19:10 < fanquake> he probably means  "no, that's not at all on topic for this channel"
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21:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b09ad737eef6...d8646966497f
21:49 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 723eb43 Hennadii Stepanov: test: Fix Windows cross build
21:49 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d864696 fanquake: Merge #21115: test: Fix Windows cross build
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21:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21115: test: Fix Windows cross build (master...210208-win) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21115
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22:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d8646966497f...a0077a80b054
22:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fd7caae Hennadii Stepanov: build: Disable --disable-fuzz-binary for gitian builds
22:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cb151b7 Hennadii Stepanov: build: Disable --disable-fuzz-binary for guix builds
22:22 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a0077a8 fanquake: Merge #21116: build: Disable --disable-fuzz-binary for gitian/guix builds
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22:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21116: build: Disable --disable-fuzz-binary for gitian/guix builds (master...210208-fuzz) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21116
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22:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a0077a80b054...c4214d0e0df0
22:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa0a4d6 MarcoFalke: test: remove assert_blockchain_height
22:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c4214d0 MarcoFalke: Merge #21117: test: remove assert_blockchain_height
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22:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21117: test: remove assert_blockchain_height (master...2102-testNoTimeout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21117
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22:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c4214d0e0df0...19b1ceddc716
22:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 98db48d Gunar Gessner: doc: Fix markdown formatting
22:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e1604b3 Gunar C. Gessner: doc: Replace tabs for spaces
22:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 19b1ced MarcoFalke: Merge #21075: doc: Fix markdown formatting
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22:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21075: doc: Fix markdown formatting (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21075
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23:02 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/19b1ceddc716...3641ec1aacfe
23:02 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ac24af4 fanquake: ci: use Ubuntu Focal for macOS cross build
23:02 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3641ec1 MarcoFalke: Merge #21112: ci: use Focal for macOS cross builds
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23:02 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21112: ci: use Focal for macOS cross builds (master...actually_use_focal_in_cirrus_ci) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21112
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23:17 < Kiminuo> Hi, would you mind sharing what IDE/editors you use for Bitcoin Core development?
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23:24 < sipa> i use mcedit, still...
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23:39 < Kiminuo> :) unexpected choice
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 09 00:00:24 2021