--- Log opened Thu Mar 25 00:00:06 2021
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00:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8f94c70625eb...9217f9fe7351
00:04 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa818ca MarcoFalke: fuzz: [refactor] Use PickValue where possible
00:04 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9217f9f MarcoFalke: Merge #21522: fuzz: [refactor] Use PickValue where possible
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00:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21522: fuzz: [refactor] Use PickValue where possible (master...2103-fuzzPickValue) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21522
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03:12 < wumpus> hebasto: are you sure you need that and not the libxkbcommon-x11-dev package?
03:13 < wumpus> (after all, the non dev packages provide runtime functionality only, i would guess the builder wants to link against it, but unsure)
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05:13 < michaelfolkson> #proposedmeetingtopic Taproot activation update
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06:04 < hebasto> wumpus: yes, I think, as an error is "error while loading shared libraries: libxkbcommon-x11.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" during runtime
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08:13 < shesek> why does importmulti with timestamp=now sometimes result in a (short) rescan and sometimes does not?
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08:36 < darosior> shesek: iirc it always scan 2W of blocks?
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08:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sethupavan12 opened pull request #21529: Updated copyright year (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21529
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08:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sethupavan12 closed pull request #21529: Updated copyright year (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21529
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08:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sethupavan12 reopened pull request #21529: Updated copyright year (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21529
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08:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sethupavan12 closed pull request #21529: Updated copyright year (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21529
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09:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sethupavan12 opened pull request #21530: Updated copyright headers to 2021 (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21530
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09:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sethupavan12 closed pull request #21530: Updated copyright headers to 2021 (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21530
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09:42 < wumpus> hebasto: yes that sounds like you need the runtime package; it is strange tho, that linking works apparantly but execution does not, is it different platforms maybe ? (e.g. arm versus aarch64)
09:44 < hebasto> wumpus: it's linux 32bit, probably `libxkbcommon-x11-0:i386` is required
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10:57 -!- Topic for #bitcoin-core-dev: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
10:57 -!- Topic set by wumpus [] [Tue Nov  3 06:37:20 2020]
10:57 [Users #bitcoin-core-dev]
10:57 [ _0x0ff          ] [ justinmoon      ] 
10:57 [ a5m0            ] [ k1ltzman        ] 
10:57 [ AaronvanW       ] [ kabaum          ] 
10:57 [ achow101        ] [ kakobrekla      ] 
10:57 [ adam3us         ] [ kanzure         ] 
10:57 [ adiabat_        ] [ kcalvinalvin    ] 
10:57 [ ahmed_          ] [ kinlo           ] 
10:57 [ aj_             ] [ leonardo_       ] 
10:57 [ ajonas          ] [ lesderid        ] 
10:57 [ amiti           ] [ lightlike       ] 
10:57 [ andrewtoth_     ] [ Lightsword      ] 
10:57 [ Anduck          ] [ lio17           ] 
10:57 [ andytoshi       ] [ luke-jr         ] 
10:57 [ aqua42          ] [ marcoagn1       ] 
10:57 [ arik__          ] [ MarcoFalke      ] 
10:57 [ Artea           ] [ mariorz         ] 
10:57 [ asoltys_        ] [ mdrollette      ] 
10:57 [ asukan          ] [ meshcollider    ] 
10:57 [ b10c            ] [ michaelfolkson  ] 
10:57 [ baldur          ] [ michagogo_      ] 
10:57 [ belcher         ] [ midnight        ] 
10:57 [ braydonf        ] [ mmitech___      ] 
10:57 [ bsm117532       ] [ mol             ] 
10:57 [ btc_thc         ] [ moneyball       ] 
10:57 [ ccook           ] [ morcos          ] 
10:57 [ cfields         ] [ Murch           ] 
10:57 [ cguida1         ] [ murr4y          ] 
10:57 [ chjj            ] [ nanotube        ] 
10:57 [ cltrbreak_MAD2  ] [ nckx            ] 
10:57 [ cncr04s         ] [ Nebraskka       ] 
10:57 [ comboy          ] [ nehan           ] 
10:57 [ commavir        ] [ nejon           ] 
10:57 [ copumpkin       ] [ nibbier         ] 
10:57 [ core-meetingbot ] [ nickler         ] 
10:57 [ criley          ] [ niftynei        ] 
10:57 [ cryptapus       ] [ niska           ] 
10:57 [ CrystalNice     ] [ nkuttler        ] 
10:57 [ CubicEarth      ] [ notmandatory    ] 
10:57 [ da2ce7          ] [ nullptr|        ] 
10:57 [ danben          ] [ ogo             ] 
10:57 [ davec           ] [ oozebrood       ] 
10:57 [ davterra        ] [ OP_NOP          ] 
10:57 [ dburkett        ] [ openoms         ] 
10:57 [ DeanWeen        ] [ owowo           ] 
10:57 [ deltreey        ] [ paracyst        ] 
10:57 [ dergoegge_      ] [ parazyd         ] 
10:57 [ dermoth         ] [ Pasha           ] 
10:57 [ Dev0n           ] [ phantomcircuit  ] 
10:57 [ dhruvm          ] [ pierre_rochard  ] 
10:57 [ digi_james      ] [ pingwindyktator ] 
10:57 [ dkrm            ] [ pinheadmz       ] 
10:57 [ dlb76           ] [ pox             ] 
10:57 [ dongcarl        ] [ Processus42     ] 
10:57 [ DougieBot5000   ] [ promag          ] 
10:57 [ dqx             ] [ prusnak         ] 
10:57 [ dr-orlovsky     ] [ qubenix         ] 
10:57 [ dunk            ] [ queip           ] 
10:57 [ dviola          ] [ rabidus         ] 
10:57 [ earlz           ] [ raj_149         ] 
10:57 [ einyx           ] [ real_or_random  ] 
10:57 [ elichai2        ] [ reardencode     ] 
10:57 [ Eliel_          ] [ rh0nj           ] 
10:57 [ emzy            ] [ roasbeef        ] 
10:57 [ endogenic       ] [ rocket_fuel_    ] 
10:57 [ ensign          ] [ rockhouse       ] 
10:57 [ eragmus         ] [ roconnor        ] 
10:57 [ esotericnonsense] [ rodarmor        ] 
10:57 [ Evel-Knievel    ] [ romanz_         ] 
10:57 [ ExEric3         ] [ RubenSomsen     ] 
10:57 [ face            ] [ ryanofsky       ] 
10:57 [ fanquake        ] [ S3RK            ] 
10:57 [ felixweis       ] [ sanket1729      ] 
10:57 [ fjahr           ] [ schmidty        ] 
10:57 [ flag            ] [ sdaftuar        ] 
10:57 [ flow            ] [ SebastianNoelLbk] 
10:57 [ GAit            ] [ shesek          ] 
10:57 [ Galvas          ] [ sipa            ] 
10:57 [ ghost43         ] [ sipsorcery      ] 
10:57 [ gleb            ] [ smartineng      ] 
10:57 [ glozow          ] [ snyke           ] 
10:57 [ gnusha          ] [ so              ] 
10:57 [ grench          ] [ someone235      ] 
10:57 [ greypw          ] [ spinza          ] 
10:57 [ gribble         ] [ stevenroose     ] 
10:57 [ grubles         ] [ sturles         ] 
10:57 [ Guest45674      ] [ SuViVoR         ] 
10:57 [ Guest80396      ] [ takinbo         ] 
10:57 [ Guest86647      ] [ Talkless        ] 
10:57 [ Guyver2         ] [ TallTim         ] 
10:57 [ gwillen         ] [ TD-Linux        ] 
10:57 [ hadjiszs_       ] [ thaumavorio     ] 
10:57 [ harding         ] [ TheHoliestRoger ] 
10:57 [ hebasto         ] [ theprofessor0x  ] 
10:57 [ helo            ] [ TheRec          ] 
10:57 [ hirish          ] [ TheV01d         ] 
10:57 [ hsmiths         ] [ thrasher`       ] 
10:57 [ hugohn          ] [ tlev            ] 
10:57 [ IGHOR           ] [ treyzania       ] 
10:57 [ infernix        ] [ tripleslash     ] 
10:57 [ isis            ] [ unauvum         ] 
10:57 [ isis_           ] [ vasild          ] 
10:57 [ Isthmus         ] [ victorSN        ] 
10:57 [ Jackielove4u    ] [ wallet42____    ] 
10:57 [ jakesyl         ] [ wangchun        ] 
10:57 [ jarolrod_       ] [ wangchun_       ] 
10:57 [ jeremyrubin     ] [ warren          ] 
10:57 [ jespada         ] [ willcl_ark      ] 
10:57 [ jesseposner     ] [ winz_07         ] 
10:57 [ jnewbery        ] [ wraithm         ] 
10:57 [ jonasschnelli_  ] [ wumpus          ] 
10:57 [ jonatack_       ] [ wxss            ] 
10:57 [ jrawsthorne     ] [ yanmaani        ] 
10:57 [ jrayhawk        ] [ Zenton          ] 
10:57 [ jungly_         ] 
10:57 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-core-dev: Total of 227 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 227 normal]
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10:57 -!- Channel #bitcoin-core-dev created Mon Nov 17 07:08:12 2014
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11:19 < amiti> #proposedmeetingtopic addr relay improvements
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11:41 < jeremyrubin> I don't think the proposedmeetingtopic link works?
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11:44 < jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic release timeline for Taproot activation and parameters
11:44 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: Yeah doesn't seem to be
11:44 < jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic SpeedyTrial pull requests #21392 and #21377
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11:44 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21392 | Implement BIP 8 based Speedy Trial activation by achow101 · Pull Request #21392 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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11:44 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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11:45 < michaelfolkson> I did propose a Taproot activation topic earlier today but hasn't got picked up. Nor has amiti's
11:45 < achow101> michaelfolkson: your topic is there
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11:45 < achow101> I don't think it updates in real time
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11:46 < michaelfolkson> Oh yeah you're right. I was looking at the wallet one
11:46  * michaelfolkson slaps head
11:47 < jeremyrubin> oh me too; the urls look very similar 
11:47 < michaelfolkson> I'm happy for you to take the Taproot topics jeremyrubin. Everyone is sick of me
11:49 < phantomcircuit> jeremyrubin, freenode is also currently exploding from restarting servers
11:50 < jeremyrubin> chin up michaelfolkson
11:50 < wumpus> yes it can take a while for the gnusha site to update
11:50 < michaelfolkson> I did try to summarize the block height versus mix of block height and MTP discussion on SE https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/103854/should-block-height-or-mtp-or-a-mixture-of-both-be-used-in-a-soft-fork-activatio
11:50 < michaelfolkson> Suggested edits welcome
11:50 < michaelfolkson> Ha thanks jeremyrubin
11:51 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: either way; I do think that more specific topics are beneficial for the core dev meeting given we're looking at a release in 1 month
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11:55 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: Yup specific topics better
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12:00 < achow101> meeting?
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < luke-jr> o hai
12:00 < achow101> hi
12:00 < jeremyrubin> hi
12:00 < amiti> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
12:01 < hebasto> hi
12:01 < wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
12:01 < fjahr> hi
12:01 < sipa> hi
12:01 < lightlike> hi
12:01 < meshcollider> hi
12:01 < michaelfolkson> hi
12:01 < aj_> hi
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12:01 < wumpus> FYI: you can propose meeting topics with #proposedmeetingtopic during the week, they will appear in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt
12:01 < wumpus> These have been proposed for this week: Taproot activation update (michaelfolkson), Addr relay improvements (amiti)
12:01 < ariard> hi
12:02 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: I proposed 2
12:02 < wumpus> any last minute topics anyone wants to discuss?
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12:02 < michaelfolkson> wumpus: jeremyrubin is going to take the Taproot activation topic(s)
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12:02 < michaelfolkson> wumpus: So please withdraw mine
12:02 < jeremyrubin> 2021-03-25.log:11:44 < jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic release timeline for Taproot activation and parameters
12:02 < jeremyrubin> 2021-03-25.log:11:44 < jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic SpeedyTrial pull requests #21392 and #21377
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21392 | Implement BIP 8 based Speedy Trial activation by achow101 · Pull Request #21392 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:03 -!- aj_ is now known as aj
12:03 < wumpus> ok, yes, I was confused there because I didn't see much difference with michaelfolkson's topic, didn't notice the other one
12:03 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:04 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  has 8 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
12:04 < wumpus> anything to add/remove or that is ready for merge?
12:04 < sipa> oh short topic: how far do we want to backport BIP350/bech32m support?
12:05 < wumpus> sipa: noted
12:05 < ariard> #19160 is pretty mature and have been ack by jamesob, dongcarl and I, I guess it would benefit from one or two more pairs of eyes
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19160 | multiprocess: Add basic spawn and IPC support by ryanofsky · Pull Request #19160 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < sipa> dank
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12:06 < wumpus> ariard: good to know, thanks
12:06 < achow101> topic: windows code signing key issues
12:06 < achow101> *topic suggestion
12:06 < wumpus> achow101: noted
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12:07 < wumpus> lots of topics today so let's move on
12:07 < wumpus> #topic Addr relay improvements (amiti)
12:07 < amiti> Hey all, I opened #21528 yesterday and wanted to share some thoughts around how I see it fitting in to the bigger picture.
12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21528 | [net_processing] Reduce addr blackholes by amitiuttarwar · Pull Request #21528 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < amiti> The PR is currently a draft & needs some cleaning up, but serves as a proof of concept. The goal is to reduce addr blackholes- aka relaying self advertisements to peers who are unlikely to continue relaying it to the network.
12:07 < amiti> The approach defers initializing the `m_addr_known` for inbound peers until they send us an addr related message. Then, it uses the presence of the filter to decide if a peer is eligible for addr relay before forwarding addresses (in `RelayAddress`). 
12:07 < amiti> If something like this were to land into master, it would resolve my concern with the `disabletx` proposal, and #20726 / bip 338 could focus solely on transaction handling, while not having the addr blackhole concern block the end goal of increasing block-relay-only connections.
12:07 < amiti> That said, avoiding addr blackholes is a standalone win for improving addr relay, and currently would apply to block-relay-only connections as well as light clients.
12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20726 | p2p: Add DISABLETX message for negotiating block-relay-only connections by sdaftuar · Pull Request #20726 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < amiti> Also want to mention, I do think this patch would be simpler / safer on top of the net/net_processing addr refactoring that jnewbery is doing. So if anyone is interested in helping, you can review this PR or #21236. 
12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21236 | Net processing: Extract `addr` send functionality into MaybeSendAddr() by jnewbery · Pull Request #21236 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < amiti> That’s all! Let me know if you have any questions or feedback :) 
12:07  * michaelfolkson needs time to read
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12:08 < sipa> amiti: is there are risk of having both sides "wait" until they see an addr?
12:08 < luke-jr> amiti types fast :P
12:08 < amiti> def a risk, but shouldn't be a problem in the implementation
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12:09 < amiti> also there's asymmetry, we setup addr relay for outbound connections
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12:10 < jnewbery> in the current implementation, we'll always send our initial self-advertisement to outbounds
12:10 < amiti> (other than block-relay-only)
12:10 < sipa> not sure how i feel about making the assumption that a peer who doesn't relay addresses to us would be necessarily uninterested in getting them
12:11 < jnewbery> if they want them, they can send a getaddr
12:11 < lightlike> some peers might be blackholes by not actively sending addrs further, but they will still require addrs. should they use getaddr for that only?
12:11 < sipa> jnewbery: ah, that's a good point
12:11 < aj> sipa: we send GETADDR to our outbounds always, and consider inbounds non-blackholes if we receive GETADDR
12:11 < jnewbery> i think it'd be strange if a node wanted addrs but didn't send a getaddr
12:11 < sipa> that's fair
12:11 < ariard> i need to think about how it might affect lightclients, not sure if they do addr-relay with any consistency
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12:12 < wumpus> light clients never do addr relay afaik
12:12 < amiti> lightlike: yeah, I don't think we can prevent  all situations of blackholing, but the patch should mitigate some normal usage patterns 
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12:12 < sipa> if we're going to give addresses to a peer, we must assume they can relay them further
12:12 < luke-jr> wumpus: but ideally they would
12:12 < jeremyrubin> so to summarize; it's basically don't send addrs till they've been requested once?
12:12 < luke-jr> or at least keep an addr db
12:13 < ariard> wumpus: that's my memory too but ideally they should
12:13 < amiti> jeremyrubin: yes but with the added clause of to inbound peers
12:13 < sipa> you can't have a mode where you consider a peer both a blackhole, but still give them addresses... because such a state could be abused to bias addr relay
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12:14 < jnewbery> jeremyrubin: or if that peer has relayed an addr to us
12:14 < sipa> so i think it's correct to only use as criterion does this peer _want_ addresses or not; not whether they're going to relay it further
12:14 < jeremyrubin> sipa: +1
12:15 < jeremyrubin> How much bandwidth does this save amiti?
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12:15 < jamesob> hi, sorry am late
12:16 < sipa> jeremyrubin: i think it's mostly an attempt at avoiding black holing?
12:16 < amiti> jeremyrubin: hm, I don't know. the motivation was more about addr relay than bandwidth.
12:16 < jeremyrubin> I'm just trying to grok why we care
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12:16 < jeremyrubin> if it can't stop a malicious peer from becoming a black hole
12:16 < amiti> its for reducing the total black holes 
12:16 < jeremyrubin> why do we care if a honest peer is a black hole?
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12:17 < jeremyrubin> so we don't advertise them or something?
12:17 < jnewbery> jeremyrubin: not much bandwidth. At most we only send one addr message per peer every 30 seconds
12:17 < sipa> jeremyrubin: because in general you assume the network has some minimal number of honest peers
12:17 < amiti> so, a key component of addr relay is self advertisement. approximately once a day we announce our addr to each peer, and when we receive those messages from others, we relay to 1-2 peers 
12:17 < aj> jeremyrubin: we only choose a few peers to relay to every day via RelayAddress() don't want to pick ones that don't care about addresses
12:17 < sipa> this doesn't have any effect if all your peers are intentionally-blackholing attackers
12:17 < amiti> the idea is an ongoing trickle of announcing addrs 
12:18 < jeremyrubin> Ok I'm just trying to understand why we care about blackholes, which the PR could better motivate
12:18 < jeremyrubin> I can take it out of band from the meeting though
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12:19 < amiti> jeremyrubin: has your question been answered here?
12:19 < sipa> seems like a reasonable idea; maybe we can also discuss it further in a P2P meeting
12:19 < jnewbery> sipa: right, this isn't effective against peers 'maliciously' not relaying your addrs, but I don't think anything can be, except a diversity of peers.
12:19 < sipa> jnewbery: indeed
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12:19 < jeremyrubin> amiti: no; it's OK though. I just don't see which resource this is saving us
12:20 < jnewbery> jeremyrubin: it's not saving a resource
12:20 < amiti> its less about resource saving and more about addr propagation 
12:20 < aj> jeremyrubin: see net_processing::RelayAddress
12:20 < sipa> jnewbery: it more a "you *definitely* don't care about addresses? ok, then i'll send them to someone else instead"
12:20 < jnewbery> sipa: exactly
12:20 < amiti> sipa: exactly
12:20 < amiti> :) 
12:20 < wumpus> time for next topic?
12:20 < wumpus> #topic Release timeline for Taproot activation and parameters (jeremyrubin)
12:20 < amiti> yeah sounds good
12:20 < amiti> thanks for the input! 
12:21 < jeremyrubin> ok, so we had a meeting on tuesday in ##taproot-activation
12:21 < jeremyrubin> I posted notes to bitcoin-dev mailing list
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12:21 < sipa> amiti: i feel a comic coming up? :)
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12:22 < jeremyrubin> The outcome of that is that we're looking at a release with parameters in the next month, assuming there's not strong opposition for whatever reason
12:22 < amiti> sipa: suggestions always welcome :) 
12:22 < achow101> didn't we have this discussion last week?
12:22 < jeremyrubin> With respect to ST, we agreed that we should fix for a Novemeber 15th height regardless of release date/starttime
12:23 < michaelfolkson> achow101: Updates, progress since last week
12:23 < jeremyrubin> achow101: it didn't have sufficient heads up that a meeting was happening for it to be a respectful process
12:23 < sipa> i'm planning to through all the activation related PRs for code review; new comments on what activation is actually appropriate
12:23 < sipa> s/new/no/
12:24 < michaelfolkson> +1 for a black hole amiti comic
12:24 < michaelfolkson> Full nodes in outer space
12:24 < jeremyrubin> can we keep it on topic?
12:25 < jeremyrubin> Does anyone have any reservations with a release during April?
12:25 < wumpus> summary from last week was: wumpus  so summary re: taproot activation: aim for april 3 for 0.21.1rc1, review both PRs asap, please hold up merging conflicting PRs for now
12:25 < wumpus> michaelfolkson: yessss
12:25 < achow101> I think we can keep the timeline that we discussed last week
12:25 < aj> are we aiming for taproot activation params in rc2 not rc1 then?
12:25 < wumpus> aj: w-why
12:26 < achow101> aj: rc1, but have space for an rc2 for other issues that may crop up
12:26 < luke-jr> aj: no? rc1 should be a cnadidate..
12:26 < wumpus> the aim should always be to get things into the first possible rc
12:26 < aj> okay
12:26 < aj> april 3 sounds very quick!
12:26 < wumpus> planning for something to do in rc2 sounds really strange to me but dunno
12:26 < jeremyrubin> Ok, wumpus does it seem that we can get rc1 by then?
12:26 < wumpus> aj: yes it might be too soon
12:26 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: to be honest? no
12:27 < michaelfolkson> Are there any follow up PRs planned for either achow101 PR or aj PR? I think achow101 has said he plans at least one follow up. I think all of aj fuzzing PRs are merged?
12:27 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: aim for it, so the inevitable slip is a slip :P
12:27 < wumpus> if you mean "can you go through the release process by then" sure, but it seems somewhat rushed, did we decide which of the two PRs to choose yet?
12:27 < aj> wumpus: "by then" == "may 1st" ?
12:27 < achow101> michaelfolkson: only followup is the activation parameters. other followups don't need backport
12:28 < michaelfolkson> achow101: Ok cool
12:28 < jeremyrubin> There's some question of which of the PRs. hence sep topic
12:28 < achow101> actually april 10th for rc1 still keeps the timeline.
12:28 < wumpus> aj: people are talking about *april 3*
12:28 < jeremyrubin> w.r.t. the mid-MTP thing, the starttime is less sensitive than the stoptime
12:29 < michaelfolkson> I tried writing up the block height versus mix of block height and MTP discussion on a SE question. Suggested edits welcome https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/103854/should-block-height-or-mtp-or-a-mixture-of-both-be-used-in-a-soft-fork-activatio
12:29 < aj> wumpus: i think jeremyrubin's/##t-a's last timeline was rc1 out the door by may 1st?
12:29 < jeremyrubin> so I don't think we need to worry that much about releasing with whatever start we want 
12:29 < wumpus> achow101: bumping it to april 10 does sound a bit more realistic
12:29 < luke-jr> MTP was never a viable option to begin with
12:29 < BlueMatt> wumpus: in the meeting there was also discussion of "it takes the time it takes, if it slips, ok, if it slips past mid-may, then we bump the eventual lock-in time, if it doesnt, then we always set activation to estimated-release + 1 week or so"
12:29 < jeremyrubin> My suggestion was rc1 may 1st, starttime may 7th, 1st period signalling mid may
12:29 < wumpus> aj: I was pasting from the conclusion of last week's IRC meeting, I do not know what was discussed elsewhere
12:29 < michaelfolkson> Currently achow101 PR is entirely block height and aj PR is a mix of block height and MTP
12:30 < aj> wumpus: aha, thanks
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12:30 < BlueMatt> so the timeline can and shoulld de dependent on when the release finishes, its not a "we have to get release by X"
12:30 < BlueMatt> at least in the taproot-activation discussion
12:30 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: sure, but we should set a schedule we're trying to keep
12:30 < achow101> BlueMatt: yes, but also, deadlines are a motivator, even if they are fuzzy
12:30 < wumpus> BlueMatt: that's the only thing that makes sense anyway
12:30 < jeremyrubin> april 3 seems unrealistic
12:30 < sipa> doesn't the start date needs wider coordination? like talking to miners and businesses to see if they're ready to deploy?
12:30 < BlueMatt> if we dont know when the code gets merged, then we cant pick a day, until then, the schedule is merge + whatever.
12:31 < luke-jr> sipa: if they aren't, they just don't signal
12:31 < wumpus> 'do a release at all costs' is a big nope to me
12:31 < jeremyrubin> sipa: No; start date is not super sensitive IMO compared to stop date 
12:31 < luke-jr> sipa: but yes, wider coordination on startheight is important anyway
12:31 < sipa> okay, not going to wade into that
12:31 < BlueMatt> s/stop/activation/
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12:31 < jeremyrubin> activation is sensitive OTOH
12:31 < jeremyrubin> the outcome of that was we'll project out a height for November 15th
12:31 < michaelfolkson> It would be nice to announce a start height as early as we can
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12:32 < michaelfolkson> But not at expense of rushing
12:32 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: doesn't matter till it's in a release
12:32 < BlueMatt> anyway, not sure there's more discussion to be had here - the code can be merged when its ready, until then, its just speculation
12:32 < wumpus> was one PR chosen? is it clsoe to merge?
12:32 < jeremyrubin> next topic?
12:32 < BlueMatt> review the code, decide on the pr, and then talk again
12:32 < BlueMatt> wumpus: nope, thats up to code review, mostly.
12:32 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: (as in, next topic is about that)
12:33 < BlueMatt> because, ultimately, no one could decide.
12:33 < wumpus> we didn't even decide a PR yet? yes, I think this is pointless like this, let's move on
12:33 < sipa> BlueMatt: nack
12:33 < luke-jr> wumpus: yes, achow101's
12:33 < achow101> both PRs are at one ack
12:33 < wumpus> #topic How far do we want to backport BIP350/bech32m support? (sipa)
12:33 < BlueMatt> sipa: to...?
12:33 < sipa> i *really* dislike using "this things seems to get reviewed faster" as a criterion to decide how consensus changes will be activated
12:33 < luke-jr> sipa: not sure why BIP350 would be eligible for backporting at all
12:33 < sipa> there should be a clear proposal, with buy-in, and then we implement that
12:34 < BlueMatt> sipa: nooooo, thats not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting a part of the criteria is what code reviewers think of it
12:34 < sipa> BlueMatt: hmm ok
12:34 < wumpus> sipa: right, I don't think it's great to have two competing PRs for this at all, I think it would make sense to choose one and close the other kind of asap
12:34 < michaelfolkson> If you'd prefer entirely block height then you'd prefer achow101 PR. Please read my SE link on that
12:34 < BlueMatt> as in, which one happens is basically "people are kinda fine with whatever, but if code reviewers feel strongly about one vs the other's safety in code, then we go with that"
12:34 < sipa> i'm happy to do code review for all of them
12:34 < achow101> luke-jr: presumably to allow sending to taproot without upgrading major release?
12:34 < luke-jr> ST (with heights) has wide support; this MTP variant does not.
12:34 < wumpus> it really doesn't make sense to discuss a timeline every week if there is no progress in that regard
12:35 < sipa> but i'm not going to ack merging until it's clear which one is chosen
12:35 < ariard> i've reviewed both,  i've a preference for bip9-amendment, would review both anyway
12:35 < michaelfolkson> I personally have a preference for a consistent use of block height across the activation mechanims
12:35 < ariard> but better to focus on one
12:35 < michaelfolkson> Mixing block height and MTP doesn't make sense to me
12:35 < michaelfolkson> But as I said please read my SE post and suggest edits and improvements
12:36 < BlueMatt> sipa: ultimately, there's....rather strong personalities who are stuck in the sand on picking one, but a small enough set of people and an equal amount on both sides, so deciding is gonna require code review deciding on code safety :/
12:36 < sipa> sigh
12:36 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: I agree, but then the most likely outcome is a UASF BIP lOT=true released before we agree on anything, which is precisely what certain people have NACKd
12:36 < jeremyrubin> so it seems deleterious to not just decide on one or the other
12:37 < michaelfolkson> I think reviewers can come to a view on block height versus a mix of block height and MTP perrsonally
12:37 < jeremyrubin> Either can be compatible with a subsequent BIP8 release
12:37 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: Any UASF is entirely irrelevant to this discussion
12:37 < sipa> i don't care about one or the other; i think all of this is a storm in a cup of water
12:37 < sipa> just pick one ffs
12:37 < BlueMatt> michaelfolkson: jeremyrubin please take it to taproot-activation.
12:37 < ariard> sipa: thanks!
12:37 < wumpus> if we want to get to to all the topics today, we should move on
12:38 < BlueMatt> sipa: well, the people who show up in taproot-activation are....the people who feel the strongest and the most stubborn about it. without more voices there, there will be no agreement, sadly.
12:38 < ariard> we should do a fair coins toss fwiw
12:38 < BlueMatt> anyway, lets move on, this isnt the right venue to debate it.
12:38 < wumpus> we can also discuss taproot for the rest of the meeting, of course
12:38 < luke-jr> thought we were trying to give sipa the floor for BIP350
12:38 < wumpus> ~20 mins to go
12:38 < achow101> re the actual topic: I think it makes sense to backport to 0.21 and 0.20
12:39 < wumpus> sipa: your topic pls
12:39 < sipa> hji!
12:39 < sipa> so we merged #20861
12:39 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20861 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses by sipa · Pull Request #20861 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:39 < wumpus> yes
12:39 < sipa> which adds send-to-bech32m support and related tests
12:39 < sipa> amending what address checksum is expected for v1+ native segwit addresses
12:40 < sipa> i think this is something that should be backported... it may not matter, depending on activation of course
12:40 < jeremyrubin> sipa: maybe backport anywhere taproot is getting backported + 1 version?
12:40 < wumpus> let's do that then
12:40 < jnewbery> I don't think #21472 is required. 0.19 is out of maintenance, and this isn't a critical fix. It'll be EOL in August: https://bitcoincore.org/en/lifecycle/#schedule
12:40 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21472 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses (0.19 backport) by sipa · Pull Request #21472 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:40 < jeremyrubin> I agree you should be able to pay addresses you see, even if you don't know how to create such an address
12:40 < sipa> but it would be unfortunate if adoption (once activated etc) is hampered by the fact that you can't send to it from stable bitcoin core releases
12:41 < sipa> i'm ok with 0.21 and 0.20
12:41 < luke-jr> 0.20 will be end-maint in Aug too
12:41 < wumpus> well if he already made a PR for it, then I don't see why not to backport
12:41 < sipa> also ok with just 0.21, if that's what we decide
12:41 < wumpus> *if* we are going to do another 0.19 release is another question of course
12:41 < jnewbery> I've reviewed 0.20 and 0.21. Both look good to me.
12:41 < sipa> i just opened backports as far back as they were nontrivial
12:42 < luke-jr> seems better to just limit to 0.21
12:42 < luke-jr> I don't think anyone plans to backport Taproot itself to 0.20?
12:42 < luke-jr> consensus code I mean
12:42 < achow101> luke-jr: you don't need taproot in order to make taproot outputs
12:42 < wumpus> luke-jr: that doesn't matter here, it's for sending to it
12:42 < wumpus> might backport one release further for that
12:43 < jeremyrubin> sipa: one question; if taproot doesn't activate can you still send to these addresses?
12:43 < luke-jr> achow101: but if you're doing economic stuff, you should be using a full node
12:43 < jeremyrubin> Might be kinda weird if you can pay to them before they activate 
12:43 < jeremyrubin> (that's true for next-release as well as backport)
12:43 < sipa> jeremyrubin: being able to send to future addresses is pretty essential for smooth upgrading
12:44 < jeremyrubin> sipa: you could only enable sending to them from wallet iff it activates and height > minactiveheight
12:44 < wumpus> that would be weird but also, why would anyone do that
12:44 < jeremyrubin> not sure, many ways to lose money I spose
12:44 < aj> jeremyrubin: been able to send to them since 0.19 due to #15846
12:44 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15846 | [POLICY] Make sending to future native witness outputs standard by sipa · Pull Request #15846 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:44 < achow101> jeremyrubin: that removes the upgrade advantage
12:44 < wumpus> it doesn't seem like something you can do by accident and there are tons of ways to lose coins if you really want
12:44 < jeremyrubin> aj: ack
12:44 < achow101> it's up to the receiver to decide whether he wants to lose money
12:45 < wumpus> so ok: 0.20 and 0.21?
12:45 < sipa> jeremyrubin: also #20165
12:45 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20165 | Only relay Taproot spends if next block has it active by sipa · Pull Request #20165 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:45 < achow101> wumpus: ack
12:45 < sipa> jeremyrubin: but that's about *spending*, not sending to
12:45 < jeremyrubin> hmm
12:46 < wumpus> I think we need to move to next topic
12:46 < wumpus> #topic SpeedyTrial pull requests (jeremyrubin)
12:46 < luke-jr> O.o
12:46 < jeremyrubin> There are two open PRs
12:46 < wumpus> yes
12:46 < wumpus> didn't we go through this already
12:46 < jeremyrubin> there is not community consensus on either one
12:47 < jeremyrubin> IDK it's the topic again so I thought I'd summarize 
12:47 < wumpus> well you proposed two topics I don't know why
12:47 < wumpus> if it's unnecessary let's move on
12:47 < BlueMatt> i think we covered this pretty fully
12:47 < michaelfolkson> I agree we need to break the deadlock on the two PRs asap. Spreading review effort over two PRs at this stage is not optimal
12:47 < sipa> michaelfolkson: and we're not going to do that here
12:47 < wumpus> #topic Windows code signing issues (achow101)
12:48 < achow101> The windows code signing key expired yesterday. I've been trying to renew it, but somehow in that process, comodo revoked the key. This is causing users who install 0.20 or 0.21 on windows to be unable to run the installer
12:48 < wumpus> uh oh
12:49 < aj> yikes
12:49 < wumpus> do you know why they revoked the key?
12:49 -!- bitcoin-git [~bitcoin-g@x0f.org] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #21472: BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses (0.19 backport) (0.19...202103_bech32m_0.19) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21472
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12:49 < achow101> comodo has also changed how they are verifying the Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association which is making it harder to get the renewed key. jonasschnelli_ is working on that, but it could be a while
12:49 < achow101> so it is possible that for the next release, we may not have a windows code signing key
12:49 < achow101> and also we probably need to re-sign 0.20 and 0.21
12:49 < wumpus> yes
12:49 < achow101> I have no idea why the key was revoked
12:50 < achow101> I emailed support and they haven't responded :/
12:50 < wumpus> is it possible to install on windows without a signing key?
12:50 < achow101> yes
12:50 < achow101> there is a non-codesigned installer
12:50 < luke-jr> but the codesigned one is a no-go?
12:50 < wumpus> can we get a key from a different provider if comodo becomes difficult?
12:51 < achow101> luke-jr: pretty much. this is what people see: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/issues/252
12:51 < wumpus> should I delete the codesigned one from the website? (or move it out of the way at least)
12:51 < achow101> wumpus: yes, but they are way more expensive ($3-400 vs $80 per yr) and probably have similar organization verification requirements
12:52 < wumpus> if it is no longer usable it makes no sense to host it, after all
12:52 < achow101> sure
12:52 < sipa> right
12:52 < jeremyrubin> achow101: does the non codesigned one make it harder to install
12:52 < sipa> perhaps move it to an archive section or so
12:52 < achow101> we have bitcoin-0.21.0-win64-setup-unsigned.exe from the gitian builds which is non-codesigned that we can upload
12:53 < luke-jr> good question - why are we even signing it on Windows? XD
12:53 < wumpus> sipa: yeah
12:53 < achow101> jeremyrubin: it gives a warning iirc
12:53 < achow101> but the warning can be ignored
12:53 < luke-jr> achow101: doesn't _any_ download?
12:53 < wumpus> the only annoyance is that I need to regenrate the SHA256SUMS.asc, and ideally the torrent too
12:53 < wumpus> oh can it be ignored?
12:53 < luke-jr> only difference IIRC was that signed just shows an author name
12:53 < emzy> does it make sense to have 2 signing certs just in case for problems like this?
12:54 < achow101> luke-jr: it says something about "untrusted" if it isn't code signed. I think that's just about it
12:54 < luke-jr> wumpus: maybe wait on the torrent until we have a full resolution?
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12:54 < luke-jr> emzy: doubt you can sign it twice
12:54 < jeremyrubin> FWIW; I don't think it makes sense to hold out on any releases that are ready to go based on this issue
12:54 < wumpus> the process is kind of a hassle so I'm not going to do this for all releases, but for the last 0.20.x and 0.21.x release sure
12:55 < sipa> jeremyrubin: agree, but we should also try to fix it going forward
12:55 < jamesob> (aside) maybe at some point we can stop doing Windows releases altogether and just recommend people run them through the graphical WSL subsystem (https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-graphical-apps-coming-to-windows-subsystem-for-linux/)
12:55 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: no one is speaking of holding up anything, and I agree
12:55 < jeremyrubin> last week it was :p
12:55 < luke-jr> jamesob: lol
12:56 < wumpus> jamesob: that's a completely different discusion (though a potentially interesting one but there is no time for that now :)
12:56 < achow101> I'll get a screenshot of the three different warnings and put them in the earlier issue
12:56 < jamesob> wumpus: yeah sorry for lobbing that grenade
12:56 < emzy> luke-jr: have a second backup cert for a second binary. That was my thinking, but it will double the work :( 
12:56 < wumpus> in any case we need a windows installer that works that people can download
12:56 < luke-jr> jamesob: looks like it's Wayland - do we even support that?
12:56 < achow101> wumpus: the unsigned one is fine for that
12:56 < wumpus> luke-jr: no, the binary does not support wayland
12:57 < wumpus> luke-jr: self-built ones do
12:57 < wumpus> see #19950 wrt wayland
12:57 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19950 | [Linux] Add wayland support · Issue #19950 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:57 < luke-jr> "it connects the graphical Linux applications via a Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) connection to the main Windows display"
12:57 < luke-jr> sounds ugly for end users
12:57 < wumpus> luke-jr: anyhow this is off topic now
12:57 < wumpus> achow101: ok
12:57 < luke-jr> sorry
12:58 < aj> was this the last topic?
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12:58 < wumpus> aj: I think so! I didn't expect to get this far but hadn't noticed the speedytrial one was more or less duplicate
12:58 < aj> wumpus: great success!
12:58 < wumpus> #endmeeting
12:58 < jnewbery> speedymeeting
12:59 < jnewbery> thanks wumpus!
13:00 < jeremyrubin> it wasn't intended to be duplicate -- it does really help to break topics into smaller chunks so that you can build consensus on one part of the puzzle without needing the other
13:01 < sipa> jeremyrubin: fwiw, the reason why sending to future addresses needs to be supported (at least as a relay policy) is that otherwise you force wallets to keep up with it (e.g. say some service supports withdrawals, and does batching, ... one customer gives a future address and another gives a current address... batching them together both payments get stuck)
13:01 < dongcarl> achow101: Is https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/issues/252 where I should follow the codesigning discussions?
13:02 < jeremyrubin> sipa: yeah, noted. I think it's good as long as no one puts tools out to *generate* taproot addresses ahead of activation
13:03 < sipa> jeremyrubin: this i think was a snafu with bech32 that resulted in it actually failing (basically nobody supported sending to future addresses, because they *had* to: relay policy didn't allow it either)
13:03 < jeremyrubin> I could see there being confusion with "Taproot is locked in" and "Taproot is active"
13:03 < achow101> dongcarl: yes
13:03 < jeremyrubin> sipa: yeah I think in general you send to a bad address you pay the price is the best we can do
13:04 < sipa> but i think the combination of support relay of sending to: always; support relay of spending: only when rules are active
13:04 < sipa> is ideal
13:05 < jeremyrubin> yeah I agree because you can be tricked into relaying bad txs after activation
13:05 < jeremyrubin> so it makes sense to only relay spends you suspect you can fully validate
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13:06 < wumpus> jnewbery: yw!
13:07 < jeremyrubin> yw?
13:07 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: yes i understand your motivation for splitting it up, it just came as a bit of a shock just after the monster topic was concluded to see it come up again :)
13:08 < wumpus> in any case, let's not make it a meeting topiuc again until at least the PR has been decided
13:08 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: probably could have gone in reverse order
13:08 < jeremyrubin> I was hoping that in the meeting, w.r.t. PRs, we could have discussed the practicality of reviewing/merging/backporting either
13:08 < jeremyrubin> And if it fits in with the timeline being desired
13:08 < wumpus> I think we need to do that after a PR has been decided
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13:09 < wumpus> with such a tight schedule it is a really bad idea to spread the time and resources over two PRs here
13:09 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: I think the issue is that "people" have decided on a tight schedule
13:09 < jeremyrubin> that's my only preference for AJ's PR
13:09 < jeremyrubin> is if we are trying to meet that timeline or not
13:10 < aj> jeremyrubin: fwiw, 21377 cleanly backports currently
13:11 < jeremyrubin> aj: yep
13:11 < aj> jeremyrubin: (modulo 21489, which also cleanly backports)
13:12 < achow101> screenshots of the different prompts that appear for the windows installers: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/issues/252#issuecomment-807400048 The non-codesigned warning has gotten scarier.
13:12 < aj> should i manually add 21489 (which i labelled as needs-backport-0.21 already) to the 0.21 milestone? or just open a pr backporting it? or?
13:12 < aj> (it's needed whichever pr gets merged)
13:12 < sipa> #21489
13:13 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21489 | fuzz: cleanups for versionbits fuzzer by ajtowns · Pull Request #21489 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:13 < sipa> aj: is the backport trivial/clean?
13:13 < wumpus> achow101: agree, and yes it seems ok for now
13:14 < aj> sipa: yes
13:16 < wumpus> at least its only a yellow warning
13:27 < luke-jr> achow101: bleh :/
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14:10 < wumpus> PSA: because of the windows signing key being revoked, i have for https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.21.0/ and https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.20.1/ moved the -setup.exe to an "archived" directory, uploaded the setup-unsigned.exe instead, also created and signed a new SHA256SUMS.asc with the alternative exe in it
14:11 < wumpus> this should make it at least possible to still install while we resolve the signign key issues
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14:27 < hebasto> jonasschnelli_: maybe `libxkbcommon-x11-0:i386` package for Linux32 build?
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14:27 < jonasschnelli> hebasto just saw that. Will add
14:27 < hebasto> jonasschnelli: thanks
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15:01 < harding> wumpus: that breaks the links on https://bitcoincore.org/en/download/ ; is it possible to use the same file name, or is that just too problematic?
15:02 < harding> (I can also change the link on the download page if you'd prefer that.)
15:05 < wumpus> harding: that is a good idea but I don't feel like doing the entire process (like regenerate SHA256SUMS.asc) again
15:05 < wumpus> let's just change the link
15:05 < harding> wumpus: will do, thanks.
15:06 < wumpus> also the -unsigned in the file name will likely alert people what to expect
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21:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21531: test: remove qt byteswap compattests (master...remove_byteswap_compat_ex_protobuf) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21531
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