--- Log opened Wed Apr 14 00:00:25 2021
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00:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e7af2f35af95...b8e5bbdf93e5
00:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fadbd99 MarcoFalke: test: Remove spurious double lock tsan suppressions by bumping to clang-12
00:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fadea0b MarcoFalke: Revert "test: Add tsan supp for leveldb::DBImpl::DeleteObsoleteFiles"
00:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b8e5bbd MarcoFalke: Merge #21669: test: Remove spurious double lock tsan suppressions by bumpi...
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00:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21669: test: Remove spurious double lock tsan suppressions by bumping to clang-12 (master...2104-tsanSupp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21669
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00:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vasild closed pull request #21668: net: properly handle PF_NOBAN in CConnman::Bind() (master...fix_pf_noban_usage) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21668
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00:47 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: i don't know i hope no one owns it and it's not governed" tbh
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01:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21676: test: Use mocktime to avoid intermittent failure in rpc_tests (master...2104-testFixMocktime) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21676
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02:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #21677: fuzz: Avoid use of low file descriptor ids (which may be in use) in FuzzedSock (master...avoid-open-fds-when-fuzzing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21677
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03:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21678: test: Fix TSan suppression (master...210414-deadlock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21678
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05:18 < bitcoin-git> [gui] laanwj merged pull request #260: Handle exceptions instead of crash (master...210326-ex) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/260
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05:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b8e5bbdf93e5...03ecceedf6f1
05:18 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master af7e365 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Make PACKAGE_BUGREPORT link clickable
05:18 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 64a8755 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Add BitcoinApplication::handleNonFatalException function
05:18 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f7e260a Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Add GUIUtil::ExceptionSafeConnect function
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05:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #21533: mining: Remove unused extranonce logic (master...2021-03-extra-nonce) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21533
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06:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/03ecceedf6f1...a12962ca8940
06:14 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa73ce6 MarcoFalke: Fix assumeutxo crash due to truncated file
06:14 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a12962c MarcoFalke: Merge #21585: Fix assumeutxo crash due to truncated file
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06:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21585: Fix assumeutxo crash due to truncated file (master...2104-assumeutxoCrash03) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21585
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06:45 < prayank> harding: Request you to review this PR: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21157
06:45 < prayank> TL;DR - 1 commit. No code. Tor docs. Reviewed by 8 or more people in last 2 months.
06:46 < prayank> A. Highlight DNS requests part B. Add 1 example in the end C. Add 4 Privacy recommendations D. Mention about `onlynet=i2p`
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06:57 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: that's not how trademarks law works 
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07:09 < wumpus> prayank: i'll take a look as well, good to see nyx (the tor node monitor) is still a thing
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07:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #21679: rpc: Keep default argument value in correct type (master...2021-04-rpc-defaults) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21679
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07:12 < prayank> wumpus: Thanks
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07:16 < Kiminuo> Hi, I'm working on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21422. Would you mind saying "concept ACK" if you find it useful?
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07:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21680: test: Use called_from_lib to point uninstrumented libs to TSan (master...210414-tsan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21680
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07:32 < wumpus> #21422
07:32 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21422 | Add feerate histogram to getmempoolinfo by kiminuo · Pull Request #21422 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:41 < _Sam--> Hi I just wanted to say thank you for doing all that work to make bitcoin.  I appreciate you.  I sit around and don't do anything, and make money just because of the work you did.   Thanks dudes/girls.  Have a nice day.
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07:41 < wumpus> thank you!
07:43 < Kiminuo> :D
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07:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a12962ca8940...8c867ed4ec6c
07:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 11115c8 MarcoFalke: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos/apk task in cirrus
07:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8c867ed MarcoFalke: Merge #21675: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos/apk task in cir...
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07:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21675: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos/apk task in cirrus (master...2104-ciSdkMacosOnly) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21675
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07:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8c867ed4ec6c...773f8c1a7d56
07:53 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f2ef5a8 Hennadii Stepanov: test: Fix TSan suppression
07:53 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 773f8c1 MarcoFalke: Merge #21678: test: Fix TestPotentialDeadLockDetected suppression
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07:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21678: test: Fix TestPotentialDeadLockDetected suppression (master...210414-deadlock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21678
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08:17 < achow101> #21377 rtm? Has 9 ACKs
08:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
08:20 < wumpus> i hope so it would be good to do the speedy trial thing, speedy i guess
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10:06 < bitcoin-git> [gui] jarolrod opened pull request #281: qt: set shortcuts for console's resize buttons (master...mul-shortcuts-resize) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/281
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10:07 < luke-jr> achow101: NACK
10:08 < luke-jr> Developers do not get to strong-arm protocol changes any more than miners do.
10:09 < luke-jr> stop with this NYA attempt
10:10 < sipa> as far as i can see based on comments on the bip change and implementation, there seems pretty wide community consensus
10:11 < sipa> i haven't followed all discussions everywhere of course
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10:11 < sipa> but you can't just say "no community consensus" while only showing evidence of yourself disagreeing
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10:13 < jamesob> fwiw I'm an unreported concept ACK on #21377 and am in the process of reviewing the code
10:14 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:14 < jeremyrubin> I also have asked previously for a definition of terms https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/92899f27f1ab30aa2ebee82314f8fe7f#gistcomment-3701878 to elucidate what luke is saying when he says "X does not have community consensus but Y does"
10:14 < jeremyrubin> I'll reiterate here: luke-jr luke-jr can you give a definition for what consensus is? Is there a concrete and consistent definition you are applying that BIP8 LOT=true is satisfying that the current ST MTP start/stop + height of activation minimum is not meeting that can be applied here and in the future?
10:15 < luke-jr> sipa: there is wide community consensus around BIP 8
10:15 < sipa> where is that community?
10:15 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: stop strawmanning
10:16 < luke-jr> sipa: all over the world?
10:17 < sipa> this seems like a pointless discussion
10:17 < jeremyrubin> I don't think that's a strawman? I've asked you to generalize. If you can't do that then I don't think anyone will listen
10:17 < luke-jr> yes, I don't know what there is to discuss. devs simply cannot force changes without communtiy support.
10:18 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I have never said nor implied LOT=True has consensus
10:18 < sipa> well someone makes a proposal, and as far as i can see, there seems agreement about that proposal
10:18 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: and there is zero indication ST/MTP has any kind of consensus
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10:18 < luke-jr> sipa: there is agreement on BIP8, yes
10:18 < wumpus> if merging anything with regard to taproot activation is 'forcing changes' that only leaves UASF
10:18 < luke-jr> sipa: 21377 is opposed to the agreement
10:19 < jonatack> jamesob: achow101: same, i'm still reviewing. did a first pass to get the code and bips in my head, need to do another one 
10:19 < sipa> luke-jr: there are tons of ACKs on the BIP PR, and the implementation; isn't that indication?
10:19 < wumpus> it means core can no longer activate softforks by itself but it always needs a third party group to push their own client
10:19 < luke-jr> sipa: ACKs are developers
10:20 < sipa> luke-jr: yes, that's why i ask about other evidence
10:20 < luke-jr> sipa: talk to people?
10:20 < wumpus> i am somewhat disappointment that we could not reacha agreement around something everyone seems to want
10:20 < sipa> that's not my job
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10:20 < wumpus> but that is how it is
10:20 < luke-jr> sipa: well, that's how you get evidence
10:20 < achow101> The only person who has expressed explicit discontent with 21377 is luke-jr
10:20 < jamesob> luke-jr: people who aren't following these PRs probably aren't the ones you'd want opining on activation strategy
10:21 < achow101> everyone else I have spoken to (in various meetings and elsewhere) are okay with 21377
10:21 < jamesob> if someone takes issue with a particular means of activation, there is nothing stopping them from commenting on 21377
10:21 < luke-jr> jamesob: I reject absolutely the premise that developers alone decide protocol changes.
10:21 < jamesob> nobody is saying that
10:21 < jeremyrubin> you either die a user or live long enough to become a developer
10:21 < luke-jr> GitHub and this channel are developer forums
10:21 < jamesob> jeremyrubin: lol
10:22 < wumpus> luke-jr: that is not the case anyhow, if there is widespread disagreement, they won't install the client version wit hthe softfork activation
10:22 < sipa> luke-jr: i don't think that's the case here
10:22 < jamesob> luke-jr: forums that are not gated in any way
10:22 < luke-jr> jamesob: actually, GitHub is, but let's not go off on that tangent
10:22 < luke-jr> wumpus: that doesn't mean it's okay to release such a thing
10:22 < wumpus> luke-jr: in any case, you are effectively blocking taproot activation right now
10:23 < luke-jr> wumpus: no, I am not
10:23 < wumpus> luke-jr: i do not know if that is your intent but you are doing it
10:23 < luke-jr> wumpus: I am helping users who are prepared to release something appropriate if Core will not
10:23 < michaelfolkson> I personally am very uncomfortable by this precedent
10:23 < luke-jr> instead of trying to strong-arm the community to using a flawed activation method
10:24 < michaelfolkson> One developer (aj) is preventing block heights from being used consistently
10:24 < achow101> luke-jr: you're the one trying to strongarm the community into using your preferred activation method
10:24 < jnewbery> michaelfolkson: please stop. That's clearly not the case
10:24 < luke-jr> achow101: liar
10:24 < jamesob> luke-jr: you are begging the question there; you seem to be the only person around here who thinks the method is flawed
10:24 < achow101> this is the billionth time we've had this discussion and it's absolutely pointless
10:24 < achow101> there is community consensus for 21377
10:24 < michaelfolkson> There is no reason to not use block heights consistently, it is farcical
10:25 < michaelfolkson> It will set a precedent for future Core versus alternative client battles over block height and MTP which are totally unnecessary
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10:25 < jamesob> michaelfolkson: code churn on a consensus-critical part of the system seems like a pretty good reason
10:25 < sipa> michaelfolkson: as far as i can see, this is all a storm in a teapot, and my only concern is that there is a single proposal pushed forward to avoid fragmentation
10:25 < luke-jr> 21377 would make Core an enemy of Bitcoin
10:25 < michaelfolkson> The clear thing to do is ask aj to use block heights consistently
10:25 < jeremyrubin> [4/14/21 10:18] <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I have never said nor implied LOT=True has consensus
10:25 < jeremyrubin>  [Tuesday, March 9, 2021] [10:13:51 AM PST] <luke-jr>    RusAlex: no consensus, but LOT=True has sufficient support to move forward
10:25 < michaelfolkson> The fact that no one is is just shocking to me
10:26 < achow101> michaelfolkson: YOU THINK I DIDN"T ASK?????
10:26 < michaelfolkson> Why risk a split network with Core and the alternative client over mix of block height and MTP? Totally nonsense
10:26 < jeremyrubin>  [Saturday, March 13, 2021] [4:37:57 PM PST] <luke-jr>   AaronvanW: but IMO we have(had?) basically consensus on everything but LOT, so we should just use that.
10:26 < sipa> michaelfolkson: wut?
10:26 < sipa> michaelfolkson: this is ridiculous
10:26 < achow101> michaelfolkson: why risk a split network by having an alternative client?
10:26 < jeremyrubin> I think it's accurate for you to say you haven't implied LOT has consensus, but by your actions you're forcing a release without consensus
10:27 < achow101> that's the qusetion for you to ask
10:27 < michaelfolkson> sipa: There is an alternative client implementing Speedy Trial (consistent block height) followed by BIP 8 (LOT=true, 1 year)
10:27 < sipa> michaelfolkson: where? pushed by whom?
10:27 < sipa> who will run it?
10:27 < luke-jr> achow101: because Core refuses to do the right thing and merge what has community consensus
10:27 < michaelfolkson> sipa: By using this dumb mix of MTP and block height in Core we are risking a split network
10:28 < michaelfolkson> It is just ridiculous
10:28 < achow101> in any case, assuming blocks are found at the rate that they have been found for the past several years, MTP ST and the alternative client will be in agreement
10:28 < jeremyrubin> achow101: +1
10:28 < michaelfolkson> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018783.html
10:28 < sipa> michaelfolkson: you're the only one claiming that, as far as i can see (again, i have not seen all discussion)
10:29 < michaelfolkson> Because one developer (aj) with really weak rationale won't use block heights consistently?
10:29 < luke-jr> achow101: I agree, but ST/MTP still lacks community support and seems to outright be spitting on consensus
10:29 < achow101> luke-jr: the only one spitting on consensus is you refusing to accept that there is consensus for MTP ST
10:29 < luke-jr> achow101: there isn't
10:29 < sipa> michaelfolkson: i really don't care about aesthetical concerns; i care about what agreement there is on a path forward
10:29 < michaelfolkson> aj has his PR being used, someone please ask him to use block heights consistently to prevent risk of split network
10:29 < luke-jr> there are some developers trying to strong-arm it in without community support
10:29 < achow101> you keep asserting that but refuse to provide any such evidence
10:30 < mol> achow101, +1
10:30 < sipa> michaelfolkson: and as far as i can see, you're trying to turn an aesthetical argument as evidence of a risk for splitting
10:30 < michaelfolkson> AJ is literally only one opposing consistent use of block height https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21377#issuecomment-818758277
10:31 < sipa> michaelfolkson: who cares? there is a proposal that seems people like
10:31 < achow101> and he has provided a rationale for it that is not addressed by a block height proposal
10:31 < michaelfolkson> Well do you care about the possibility of a split network?
10:31 < sipa> michaelfolkson: yes, absolutely, that's the only thing i care about
10:31 < luke-jr> sigh
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10:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesob opened pull request #21681: validation: fix ActivateSnapshot to use hardcoded nChainTx (master...2021-04-au-nchaintx-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21681
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10:33 < michaelfolkson> You have a contributor of 10 years who is probably the biggest expert on activation here, author of BIP 8, involved with UASF and he is NACKing this. Please just consider what you are doing
10:33 < achow101> I will restate my earlier statment: 21377 is rtm. It has 9 ACKs, and 1 unmotivated (no reason given) NACK. Said NACK can be ignored as it does not provide a reason
10:33 < achow101> a NACK with no reason provided can be ignored as stated in our contributor guidelines
10:33 < michaelfolkson> For what? AJ's test networks? Seriously....
10:33 < luke-jr> achow101: developer ACKs withotu community agreement isn't enough for protocol changes; and I gave reasons
10:33 < luke-jr> (as have many others including yourself!)
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10:34 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr can you give a definition for what consensus is? Is there a concrete and consistent definition you are applying that BIP8 LOT=true is satisfying that the current ST MTP start/stop + height of activation minimum is not meeting that can be applied here and in the future?
10:34 < michaelfolkson> We are willing to risk a split network over AJ's test networks. I'm staggered
10:34 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: stop spamming
10:34 < jeremyrubin> It's a legit question that you've ignored
10:34 < sipa> michaelfolkson: i cannot comprehend where this is coming from
10:34 < luke-jr> no, it isn't
10:34 < jnewbery> michaelfolkson: you've claimed in ##taproot-activation that your goal is for "21377 to be well reviewed and merged". Your actions over the last week have been completely contrary to that stated goal.
10:34 < jeremyrubin> Maybe remove BIP8 LOT=true? 
10:34 < michaelfolkson> sipa: Please read https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018783.html
10:34 < jeremyrubin> What is BIP8 LOT=? satisfying
10:35 < jamesob> michaelfolkson: can you dial back the hyperbole please?
10:35 < achow101> michaelfolkson: you are willing to risk a split network over a MTP vs height for a single paramter. I'm staggered
10:35 < sipa> ^
10:35 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: i've personally found the thinking patterns in https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GSQsAReasGjETP3e9/biases-of-intuitive-and-logical-thinkers helpful in development. Perhaps worth reflecting on
10:36 < michaelfolkson> Luke has been consistent throughout and he has expertise with activations. If you want to ignore that, go for it
10:37 < jeremyrubin> he's consistently failed to answer questions like "what is incompatible with ST" or "what definition of consensus are you using that passes BIP8 and not ST"
10:37 < sipa> sorry, this discussion is personally stressing me out too much; my intent isn't to weigh in on activation methods, just to assess to level of support the current proposal has
10:37 < michaelfolkson> All these NACKs and coin flips and test networks, I've just been shocked
10:37 < jeremyrubin> and you're literally arguing with sipa about expertise with activation
10:37 < sipa> i'm going to withdraw again
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10:37 < jnewbery> michaelfolkson: yes you're shocked. We all understand that you're shocked.
10:38 < jnewbery> I'll echo the many people in #taproot-activation who have suggested you step back for a bit.
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10:38 < jnewbery> You're no longer helping yourself or anyone else
10:38 < michaelfolkson> jnewbery: Everytime I do, everyone just piles on Luke or does dumb coin flips
10:38 < luke-jr> "get out of the way so we can strong-arm this in" is what I am hearing
10:38 < michaelfolkson> I stayed away for a week and look at all the nonsense that happened
10:39 < jnewbery> all the nonsense = actual progress on a compromise proposal and implementation
10:39 < mol> michaelfolkson, thank you for staying away for a week and that allowed us to get things done
10:39 < michaelfolkson> Just listen to Luke's views occasionally, that's all I ask. You can ignore me
10:39 < luke-jr> there's nothing compromise about it anymore; it's purely one-sided, against community majority
10:39 < michaelfolkson> mol: Right some great coin flips were done
10:39 < mol> you never know michaelfolkson you're a liability and a farce for luke-jr 
10:40 < michaelfolkson> mol: Lol if he thinks that he can tell me privately
10:40 < jeremyrubin> I would love to listen to luke-jr michaelfolkson
10:40 < achow101> michaelfolkson: you are not asking us to listen to luke-jr. You are asking us to bow down to luke-jr and accept everything that he wants
10:40 < mol> he might not think so but luke-jr needs better help
10:40 < jeremyrubin> Luke, what test is BIP8 passing w.r.t. consensus that ST is not?
10:40  * jeremyrubin ears open
10:41 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: ST is not MTP
10:41 < michaelfolkson> Ok I'm out too. Just please consider what you are doing. You are willing to risk a split network over AJ's test networks. Just so you are clear on that
10:41 < jeremyrubin> Ok please don't pedant over terms.
10:41 < luke-jr> ST/BIP8 had (has?) widespread support, not ST/BIP9
10:41 < jeremyrubin> What test is BIP8 passing that 21377 is not
10:41 < jamesob> michaelfolkson: it's hard not to listen to Luke's views occasionally :). Everyone here I think values his participation, input, and unique approach in a general sense, but this whole activation debate is wallowing in the mire. We all want taproot here.
10:41 < luke-jr> the community is almost unanimous in favour of BIP8
10:41 < jeremyrubin> Where are you observing this consensus
10:41 < jeremyrubin> SHOW DON'T TELL
10:41 < jeremyrubin> I have not seen it *anywhere*
10:41 < luke-jr> most have never even heard of 21377, and it is opposed to the community's consensus aroudn BIP8
10:42 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: then you're not paying attention
10:42 < jeremyrubin> WHERE
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10:42 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: community's consensus aroudn BIP8 WHERE
10:42 < jeremyrubin> It should be fucking simple if it exists
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10:42 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: literally everywhere people talk about Bitcoin/Taproot/activation
10:42 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: it is, but you refuse to look
10:42 < jeremyrubin> Then give me *one* example
10:42 < achow101> THEN PROVIDE SOME GODDAMN LINKS
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10:43 < michaelfolkson> I can't leave can I....
10:43 < jeremyrubin> you can!
10:43 < luke-jr> go re-read the meeting logs; go look at Twitter or reddit; call up some people you know
10:43 < achow101> michaelfolkson: you can leave at any time
10:44 < michaelfolkson> achow101: As you know there were very well attended community meetings when we reviewed and finalized BIP 8 (using block heights)
10:44 < michaelfolkson> achow101: Not ten people doing a coin flip
10:44 < jeremyrubin> That didn't decide what happened, and you know that.
10:44 < achow101> And there were very well attended community meetings where we reviewed and finalized ST using MTP
10:44 < luke-jr> frankly asking for evidence at this point is just dishonest
10:44 < jeremyrubin> wtf
10:44 < luke-jr> as if it isn't all over the place
10:44 < michaelfolkson> achow101: We then had to decide on the LOT parameter. There wasn't clear consensus on the LOT parameter
10:45 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: which meeting was this? The one scheduled 24 hours in advance?
10:45 < michaelfolkson> achow101: But that does not mean the community went f*** BIP 8, let's use no BIP and a mix of block height and MTP
10:45 < michaelfolkson> *let's not use BIP 8
10:45 < achow101> michaelfolkson: WHY IS IT THAT YOU ASSUME THAT GOING WITH MTP ST MEANS FUCK BIP 8??????
10:45 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: There were two with 10 days notice I think
10:45 < luke-jr> the fact that ST/MTP folks can't engage honestly is what makes this a waste of time
10:46 < achow101> THIS ISN'T A BINARY BLACK AND WHITE DECISION
10:46 < michaelfolkson> achow101: We don't even know what BIP this MTP, block height is. That is what a shambles this is
10:46 < achow101> michaelfolkson: it's BIP 341
10:46 < michaelfolkson> Again all for AJ's test networks
10:47 < achow101> A PR has been opened to specify all of it in BIP 341
10:47 < michaelfolkson> We haven't worked out if it is going to be BIP 9 or a new BIP
10:47 < michaelfolkson> When Speedy Trial is sitting there neatly in BIP 8 and it has been reviewed
10:47 < achow101> It doesn't matter. It's specified in the place it matter: BIP 341
10:48 < achow101> the place it is going to be used
10:48 < michaelfolkson> It could be used again. It needs a BIP that isn't Taproot specific
10:48 < luke-jr> michaelfolkson: seems achow101's argument is that it's being special-cased in BIP 341 and therefore not expected to be used again
10:48 < michaelfolkson> achow101: It could easily be used again. Especially if it is a success
10:48 < luke-jr> it shouldn't be used once, much less again
10:48 < achow101> michaelfolkson: This is not the first time an activation mechanism was specified in the first BIP it were used, and then referred to again in subsequente soft forks
10:48 < achow101> see BIP 34
10:49 < achow101> and the later ISM forks that referred to the BIP 34 activation mechanism
10:49 < michaelfolkson> From a BIP perspective it is a mess currently imo
10:49 < michaelfolkson> Now if that was the only problem I would say ignore it
10:49 < michaelfolkson> But it is not
10:49 < luke-jr> anyway, how things get documented in BIPs is trivial in comparison to the real issues
10:49 < michaelfolkson> We have an alternative client using block height consistently
10:50 < michaelfolkson> We also have most reviewers preferring consistent use of block height and only one contributor NACKing it
10:50 < michaelfolkson> (for his test networks)
10:50 < michaelfolkson> It is just ludicrous
10:51 < jamesob> michaelfolkson: there are an infinite number of possible alternative clients; it doesn't make sense to defer to one that just popped up yesterday
10:51 < achow101> michaelfolkson: have you read https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282? I highly suggest you read section 6 "One hundred people for and five people against might not be rough consensus" and section 7 "Five people for and one hundred people against might still be rough consensus"
10:51 < michaelfolkson> jamesob: That is fair, but luke-jr is involved. It is not like it is some joker coming out the woodwork trying to cause disruption
10:52 < mol> we gathered in the meeting for the 'alternative client' to make luke feel good but only 3 people might run it, the rest of the community will run Core :D
10:52 < michaelfolkson> He has also been consistent throughout but people just don't listen to him (even though this is his area of expertise)
10:52 < luke-jr> jamesob: it didn't "just pop up yesterday"; it's been an ongoing WIP originally intended for Core, but finally accepting a separate release due to these problems within Core
10:52 < jeremyrubin> reading through http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-02-02.log, based on which michaelfolkson bases claim that BIP9 is "dead" and therefore MTP can't be used, TBH I just don't see that being the emergent agreement
10:53 < jeremyrubin> I see people caring about the *properties* of BIP8 vs BIP9, not excluding MTP being used in the future
10:53 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: They weren't my words, they were Rusty's words (an author of the BIP)
10:53 < michaelfolkson> A neutral observer at the meeting
10:53 < jeremyrubin> which meeting? i don't see him saying that in these logs
10:53 < michaelfolkson> In his summary after the meeting, his exact words
10:54 < michaelfolkson> I just think you like wasting people's time jeremyrubin
10:54 < michaelfolkson> But for this I'll find you the link
10:54 < jamesob> micahelfolkson: can we shy away from ad hominem?
10:54 < jeremyrubin> I'm doing what luke and you asked, which is reviewing the meetings for consensus
10:54 < jeremyrubin> https://bitcoinhackers.org/@rusty/105664386728806153
10:55 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: Exactly, thank you
10:56 < jeremyrubin> I see, but it's *your job* as a summarizer to filter. And "dead" (not RIP) is a quote due to you
10:56 < michaelfolkson> The maintainers will essentially need to decide. I recommend they ask aj to use block heights consistently personally. But if he refuses it is up to them what they merge
10:56 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: You are quibbling over RIP versus dead? Seriously?
10:56 < michaelfolkson> You are just trolling and wasting my time
10:56 < jeremyrubin> I'm just saying you seem to beleive rusty
10:57 < jeremyrubin> and you've extrapolated BIP9 RIP ==> MTP cannot be used
10:57 < michaelfolkson> I haven't 
10:57 < michaelfolkson> This is torture
10:57 < michaelfolkson> I've said not to use BIP 9
10:57 < jeremyrubin> And are you in the chair or holding the bucket of water?
10:57 < michaelfolkson> And the only BIP that has been reviewed and includes Speedy Trial is BIP 8
10:58 < jeremyrubin> #21377 has been reviewed, as has the corresponding 341 BIP
10:58 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:58 < achow101> michaelfolkson: we aren't using BIP 9. MTP != BIP 9
10:58 < jeremyrubin> in fact at this point it probably has more review than any BIP8 anything has ever had
10:58 < achow101> jeremyrubin: he's in the chair dunking his own head into the bucket of water
10:59 < michaelfolkson> We. will. need. a. BIP. for. Speedy. Trial (that is not Taproot specific)
10:59 < jeremyrubin> can happen after the fact
10:59 < michaelfolkson> Sjors has opened a PR to change BIP 9
10:59 < achow101> A generalized BIP can happen afterwards
10:59 < jeremyrubin> BIPs are often descriptive
10:59 < jeremyrubin> not prescriptive
10:59 < jeremyrubin> (in fact, it's usually preferable to be descriptive otherwise we have useless BIPs clogging the numberspace)
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11:00 < michaelfolkson> Whatever. As I've said the maintainers will need to make the decision. I would recommend they ask aj to change to block heights consistently.
11:00 < michaelfolkson> If he refuses we have the risk of a split network if it gets merged
11:00 < jeremyrubin> THAT IS NOT MAINTAINERS JOBS IT IS A DANGEROUS MYTH YOU ARE PERPETUATING
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11:00 < michaelfolkson> A small risk, but a risk nonetheless
11:00 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: It is when people are going mad doing coin flips and whatever else
11:01 < jeremyrubin> Project maintainers have commit access and are responsible for merging patches from contributors. They perform a janitorial role merging patches that the team agrees should be merged. They also act as a final check to ensure that patches are safe and in line with the project goals. The maintainers’ role is by agreement of project contributors.
11:01 < michaelfolkson> When people are going mad doing coin flips the only people stopping dumb stuff from being merged is the maintainers
11:01 < jeremyrubin> If there is a safety concern, maintainers can raise it. But using their maintainer hat they aren't in the role of prescribing something else.
11:02 < achow101> michaelfolkson: you keep harping on about this coin flip thing as if it actually mattered
11:02 < achow101> do you actually think the coin flip was what decided which PR to close?
11:02 < michaelfolkson> I don't have anymore to add
11:02 < michaelfolkson> If you start piling on Luke again I'll come back
11:02 < mol> lmao
11:02 < achow101> you've had nothing more to add for a long time
11:02 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr is a big boy, he can handle himself
11:02 < michaelfolkson> Otherwise I'm out
11:02 < achow101> we've been having the same exact discussion for the past several weeks
11:03 < mol> bye
11:05 < roconnor> so, #21377 rtm then?
11:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:06 < jeremyrubin> roconnor: I'd like to play with the tests a bit more to go from cr-ack to tack, but that can happen after merge
11:06 < jeremyrubin> so rtm from me
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11:07 < jonatack> roconnor: jamesob and i are still reviewing, idk about others, not to block anything tho
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11:07 < jamesob> yeah I'm happy to continue review post-merge
11:08 < luke-jr> roconnor: no
11:09 < luke-jr> it's still unacceptable to ignore the community
11:10 < jnewbery> it's ready to merge
11:11 < luke-jr> it's abuse of position to merge
11:12 < jeremyrubin> noted
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11:18 < jeremyrubin> I've gone and re-looked at the notes
11:19 < BlueMatt> roconnor: yep! 21377 looks ready to merge!
11:19 < jeremyrubin> I can see why luke-jr and michaelfolkson think there might be consensus on BIP8, but I think they are viewing the process as "gradient descent on a continuos surface" as opposed to a discontinuous process.
11:19 < jeremyrubin> There was never an inkling of consensus on a LOT=true parameter
11:19 < jeremyrubin> it was always hotly contested
11:19 < jeremyrubin> and BIP8 requires *a choice* of that
11:20 < jeremyrubin> so it seems inaccurate to me to label BIP8 as having consensus when a key parameter did not
11:21 < jeremyrubin> 21377, being a whole new thing, needs to be independently evaluated
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11:21 < jeremyrubin> "but we already agreed to XXX for BIP8" doesn't hold when a keystone component of BIP8 (LOT) is what made ST a thing in the first place.
11:22 < jeremyrubin> Further, the type of consensus around BIP8 in these meeting logs (maybe it's somewhere else, figure the meetings are more relevant than twitter/reddit) is not super high quality IMO because it's mainly ACK'ing the properties of BIP8 as opposed to the specific implementation
11:22 < jeremyrubin> And it's less explicit ACKs as opposed to "sounds OK"
11:23 < jeremyrubin> (there was no, afaict, concrete PRs in the air?)
11:23 < harding> Re rtm status: I'm reviewing 21377 again today, but I've tested it quite a bit so far and not found any problems.  I'll also continue reviewing post-merge if it gets merged today.
11:24 < jeremyrubin> In contrast, the ACKs on harding's proposal (which allows for middle space of BIP8 or BIP9) https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/92899f27f1ab30aa2ebee82314f8fe7f is much more exhaustive and explicit
11:24 < jeremyrubin> 21377 being a concrete instantion of that suggests to me it is acceptable by the community 
11:25 < jeremyrubin> Further in support of BIP8's consensus being questionable earlier on, I think harding has had a very good read on the community in general. I don't beleive he would have included BIP9 in his proposal as an option if he thought the community was decisive
11:25 < jeremyrubin> (harding don't let me assume your intent)
11:26 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: BIP8 doesn't require LOT for ST any more than BIP9 does
11:26 < jeremyrubin> Overall I feel relativelty confident based on this review dismissing the notion that BIP8 has consensus and ST/MTP does not
11:27 < jeremyrubin> but others can do their own review of this summary independently 
11:28 < jeremyrubin> Sorry if this is line noise for this channel -- but this is the best job I could do at breaking down the claim that BIP8 has consensus (LOT=?) and ST/MTP does not
11:29 < midnight> If someone +o me, I'll clean this channel up and then you can blame me.
11:29 < BlueMatt> fwiw, I do, like I think several others, have a weak but repeatedly-stated preference for MTP over height.
11:31 < jeremyrubin> midnight: I don't think there's a need, but if you're referring to me I'll put myself in timeout voluntarily. lunch time
11:39 < emzy> fwiw I was prefering bip8 and ok with bip9 in the beginning. And I think many thought the same at that time.  
11:39 < emzy> (hight over MTP)
11:39 < emzy> *hight
11:43 < BlueMatt> emzy: right, people gonna disagree, cause people. trying to blow up progress because of a triviality, tho....
11:43 < provoostenator> The "BIP 8"  (LOT=false) speedy trial PR #21392 is of similiar quality to the BIP 9 one IMO.
11:43 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21392 | Implement BIP 8 based Speedy Trial activation by achow101 · Pull Request #21392 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:43 < emzy> BlueMatt: I agree.  
11:44 < provoostenator> For BIP 8 itself  the main issue was LOT=true but I don't think there was much objection to implemting the LOT=false version.
11:44 < provoostenator> It's a coin toss :-)
11:44 < provoostenator> (but not literally)
11:44 < BlueMatt> provoostenator: right, one of those trivialities that we generally just say "code author decides, cause it doesnt matter" :p
11:44 < jeremyrubin> of course, a literal coin toss wouldn't be provably fair over the phone ;)
11:44 < BlueMatt> or, if you really care, a coin toss
11:45 < Emcy> if its rtm, please merge it
11:45 < Emcy> no more peanut gallery
11:45 < provoostenator> Right, I was just responding to earlier discussion about BIP 8 being totally not in a review ready state. That's only true for LOT=true.
11:45 < jeremyrubin> provoostenator: I don't disagree on quality, 21377 has more acks/review though so closer to RTM
11:45 < provoostenator> Because that PR needs more work and more thinking
11:46 < provoostenator> jeremyrubin: it certainly does now
11:47 < BlueMatt> sounds like most of us are in agreement, its ready to merge 🎉
11:48 < jeremyrubin> Ah yes, provoostenator was commenting on my comment at [11:22:46 AM PDT] 
11:48 < jeremyrubin> I'm looking back at the february meetings which were I think before any PR
11:50 < provoostenator> I like that it has a +1 from Voskuil too, who needs to deal with implemting this in libbitcoin.
11:50 < provoostenator> Aperently also support from Btcd.
11:51 < provoostenator> And so far no comment along the lines of "my goodness this is a nightmare to implement in [my favorite BTC client]"
11:52 < BlueMatt> plus voskuil *normally* disagrees very strongly on bitcoin fork activation stuff, so him agreeing is a pretty good "did we even slightly screw this up" check
11:52 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: don't let him catch you saying that 
11:52 < BlueMatt> heh
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12:46 < jonasschnelli> #proposedmeetingtopic short info/update on the "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association" status.
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13:03 < da2ce7_> wumpus: "<bitcoin-git> [gui] laanwj merged pull request #260: Handle exceptions instead of crash (master...210326-ex) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/260" the merge script seems to have a bug...
13:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/260 | Add esperanto translation. by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #260 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:04 < wumpus> da2ce7_: how that?
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13:04 < da2ce7_> well well; pull request is 260 is quite old...
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13:06 < wumpus> it links to the GUI repo: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/260
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13:06 < da2ce7_> ahhh. O.o; my bad then.
13:06 < wumpus> which has its own PR namespace, and started more recently, so the numbers are lower :)
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13:08 < da2ce7_> I just clicked it via the github interface.
13:10 < wumpus> i see the issue now
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13:11 < wumpus> it is supposed to do Merge bitcoin-core/gui#266
13:11 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/266 | Backport to wx2.8 and dynamically link most libs. by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #266 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:11 < amiti> is anyone here admin for the bitcoin-dev mailing list? I've been trying to send an email and struggling :( 
13:13 < wumpus> da2ce7_: I didn't *use* the script correctly, apparently, thanks for noticing
13:13 < michaelfolkson> amiti: I think RubenSomsen is
13:13 < michaelfolkson> amiti: What's the problem? There is sometimes a delay before it gets published if that's the concern?
13:14 < amiti> my emails are bouncing saying I'm not subscribed to the list, but I am
13:15 < michaelfolkson> Oh that is weird.. yeah I'm sure Ruben will be able to help (or at least point you to someone else who can help)
13:15 < amiti> ok, thanks
13:16 < da2ce7_> :)
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13:24 < wumpus> amiti: or kanzure maybe
13:25 < amiti> wumpus: will check it out, thanks :) 
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13:42 < luke-jr> it's not triviality except to BIP9 advocates
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13:44 < luke-jr> or to be more correct, people who don't consider it a triviality, are unanimously in favour of BIP8
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14:17 < RubenSomsen> Problem solved, was able subscribe amiti to the mailing list manually to resolve it
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14:30 < dergoegge> whats the easiest way to debug a test on windows without having a windows machine? (i am trying to figure out why the test i wrote in #21603 is failing on windows only)
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14:30 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21603 | log: Mitigate disk filling attacks by rate limiting LogPrintf by dergoegge · Pull Request #21603 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
14:31 < dergoegge> i have tried running "FILE_ENV="./ci/test/00_setup_env_win64.sh" ./ci/test_run_all.sh" but that keeps failing while building :/
14:31 < dergoegge> (i am on macOS if that makes a difference)
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14:56 < jarolrod> windows virtual machine?
15:13 < phantomcircuit> dergoegge, iirc the windows test harness is pretty noisy
15:16 < phantomcircuit> oh
15:17 < phantomcircuit> dergoegge, you're assuming that LogPrintf("%s\n", std::string(1023, 'a')); results in 1024 bytes written, but on windows it might be 1025 cause of line endings
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15:32 < dergoegge> jarolrod: yea i guess but  i was hoping i could avoid setting up a vm from scratch, but that is probably the best way
15:34 < dergoegge> phantomcircuit: oh right, thats probably it, thank you
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15:52 < kanzure> amiti: also you may have sent to bitcoin-discuss instead of bitcoin-dev
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15:55 < amiti> kanzure: it was very odd, my email address wouldn't subscribe to bitcoin-dev, so per ReubenSomsen's suggestion we debugged by using bitcoin-discuss 
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17:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/773f8c1a7d56...7fcf53f7b452
17:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 09b3e46 fanquake: doc: remove boostrap info from GUIX_COMMON_FLAGS doc
17:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7fcf53f fanquake: Merge #21672: doc: remove boostrap info from GUIX_COMMON_FLAGS doc
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17:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21672: doc: remove boostrap info from GUIX_COMMON_FLAGS doc (master...fixup_guix_options) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21672
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19:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 10 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/7fcf53f7b452...2cd834e6c09d
19:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 63879f0 Anthony Towns: tests: pull ComputeBlockVersion test into its own function
19:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5932744 Anthony Towns: tests: test ComputeBlockVersion for all deployments
19:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9e6b65f Anthony Towns: tests: clean up versionbits test
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19:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21377: Speedy trial support for versionbits (master...202103-bip9-speedy-trial-support) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21377
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19:10 < luke-jr> fanquake: that was entirely inappropriate and violates community trust
19:11 < glozow> fanquake: 😘
19:12 < jeremyrubin> \o\
19:12 < jeremyrubin> \/o/
19:14 < Murch> fanquake: thanks
19:18 < jeremyrubin> release params next?
19:18 < BlueMatt> release params next.
19:19 < luke-jr> revert next.
19:20 < luke-jr> and/or revoke fanquake's access since he's abusing it
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19:21 < harding> fanquake++
19:21 < BlueMatt> harding: I think you meant *= :)
19:21 < harding> :-)
19:32 < achow101> huzzah
19:33 < jeremyrubin> fanquake: thanks a LOT
19:34 < TallTim> clearly it should be decided by the price of DOGE
19:34 < TallTim> lolol
19:34 < TallTim> carry on.
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19:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #21686: Speedy trial activation parameters for Taproot (master...taproot-mtp-st-params) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21686
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21:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] am33r opened pull request #21687: 1IP per-connection policy (master...ameer_prevent_duplicate_connections_from_same_ip) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21687
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22:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jarolrod opened pull request #21688: doc: note on SDK for macOS depends cross-compile (master...depends-note-sdk) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21688
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22:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #19573: Replace unused BIP 9 logic with draft BIP 8 (master...bip8) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19573
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23:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #20558: test: Add MaybeCompactWalletDB tsan suppression (take 2) (master...2012-testSanTsan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20558
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23:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2cd834e6c09d...9712f75746e3
23:04 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6262182 practicalswift: Avoid use of low file descriptor ids (which may be in use) in FuzzedSock a...
23:04 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9712f75 MarcoFalke: Merge #21677: fuzz: Avoid use of low file descriptor ids (which may be in ...
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23:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21677: fuzz: Avoid use of low file descriptor ids (which may be in use) in FuzzedSock (master...avoid-open-fds-when-fuzzing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21677
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23:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #21680: test: Use called_from_lib to point uninstrumented libs to TSan (master...210414-tsan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21680
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23:26 < aj> MarcoFalke: have a seperate PR to backport both #21377 and #21686 for 0.21, i guess? looking for acks for #21614 now?
23:26 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
23:26 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21686 | Speedy trial activation parameters for Taproot by achow101 · Pull Request #21686 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
23:26 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21614 | [0.21] test: Backports by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #21614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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23:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #21689: test: Remove intermittently failing and not very meaningful `BOOST_CHECK` in `cnetaddr_basic` (master...remove-intermittently-failing-and-largely-meaningless-ipv6-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21689
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 15 00:00:26 2021