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03:40 < pinheadmz> fjahr I cleaned up the bot, so #bitcoin-core-github should just be PR open/close/merge now
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05:01 < jonatack> pinheadmz: nice
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06:23 < fjahr> pinheadmz: awesome!
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07:00 < achow101> #startmeeting
07:00 < josie> hi
07:00 < achow101> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard aureleoules b10c BlueMatt brunoerg cfields darosior dergoegge dongcarl fanquake fjahr furszy gleb glozow hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jonatack josibake kallewoof kanzure kouloumos kvaciral laanwj LarryRuane lightlike luke-jr MacroFake Murch phantomcircuit pinheadmz promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar S3RK stickies-v sipa theStack TheCharlatan vasild
07:01 < gleb> hi
07:01 < instagibbs> hi
07:01 < hebasto> hi
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07:01 < glozow> hi
07:01 < lightlike> Hi
07:01 < fjahr> hi
07:01 < sipa> hi
07:01 < achow101> There are no pre-proposed meeting topics this week. Any last minute ones to add to the list?
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07:01 < stickies-v> hi
07:02 < _aj_> chat about log api?
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07:02 < achow101> #topic package relay updates (glozow)
07:02 < abubakarsadiq> hi
07:03 < glozow> The PRs that are up for review are #28364 and #28251.
07:03 < glozow> #28364 has some acks though there is some concern about conflict with the severity level logging project. Maybe good to have log api chat?
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07:03 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28364 | log: log wtxids when possible, add TXPACKAGES category by glozow · Pull Request #28364 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:03 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28251 | validation: fix coins disappearing mid-package evaluation by glozow · Pull Request #28251 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:03 < darosior> hi
07:03 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28364 | log: log wtxids when possible, add TXPACKAGES category by glozow · Pull Request #28364 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:03 < glozow> #28345 is likely also of interest for those reviewing package relay
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07:03 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28345 | Bugfix: Package relay / bytespersigop checks by luke-jr · Pull Request #28345 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:03 < TheCharlatan> hi
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07:04 < luke-jr> I feel like virtual size stuff needs simplification somehow, but it's annoying due to the project modularity boundaries and need for the prev input data
07:04 < instagibbs> remove virtual stuff :P
07:04  * instagibbs logs off
07:05 < instagibbs> practically speaking, whats the most common pattern that hits it
07:05 < instagibbs> I would have suspects bare multisig?
07:05 < sipa> nothing sane ever hits the increment-vsize-due-to-high-sigops behavior
07:05 < sipa> iirc
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07:06 < glozow> #27591 is perhaps relevant for this discussion? it happened in the wild and a user got super confused that "vsize" was different in the mempool RPC
07:06 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27591 | rpc: distinguish between vsize and sigop-adjusted mempool vsize by glozow · Pull Request #27591 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:07 < luke-jr> sipa: right, we probably only _need_ it for external transactions (p2p, receiving in wallet)
07:07 < Murch> Hi
07:07 < instagibbs> presumably to reduce cpu DoS, without outright denying the txns?
07:07 < sipa> does anything at all ever care about the non-adjusted vsize?
07:08 < luke-jr> I think non-adjusted is only relevant because BIP141 specified it
07:08 < luke-jr> but not in practice
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07:08 < sipa> right
07:08 < glozow> I don't think so. We only use non-adjusted when we don't have the prev inputs
07:08 < luke-jr> otoh it's also much simpler to calculate
07:08 < luke-jr> eg, it might not even be possible to get adjusted vsize for historical txs not in our wallet
07:08 < sipa> my suggestion would be to document it; if people care about the consensus-relevant part, there is always weight too, which is more accurate and is unadjusted
07:09 < glozow> 👍
07:09 < luke-jr> if not for the complexity of the adjusted-vsize caclulations, I would almost prefer to just say vsize is always adjusted and weight is consensus
07:09 < sipa> yeah the dependency on input data makes it annoying
07:09 < _aj_> could change our rpc fields to say "ajdvsize" when we've taken sigops into account?
07:09 < _aj_> ajdvsize
07:09 < _aj_> jesus
07:09 < _aj_> adjvsize
07:10 < sipa> ETOOMANYVOWELS
07:10 < instagibbs> "aj" hmmm
07:10 < luke-jr> lol
07:10 < _aj_> yeah, pick what my fingers like to type
07:10 < josie> _aj_vsize
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07:10 < luke-jr> well, that's part of why I think vsize vs weight is a better approach, it has a clear distinction
07:10 < _aj_> no, pls don't make me be blamed for legacy sigop limits forever
07:11 < glozow> Would welcome opinions on #27591, the goal there is to clean up the user-facing docs
07:11 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27591 | rpc: distinguish between vsize and sigop-adjusted mempool vsize by glozow · Pull Request #27591 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:12 < achow101> #topic BIP 324 updates (sipa)
07:12 < sipa> hi
07:12 < sipa> making good progress and getting review on #28196, which now also has unit tests
07:12 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28196 | BIP324 connection support by sipa · Pull Request #28196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:13 < sipa> all the observable "now actually make use of v2" is in #28331 (which i'm running on some of my nodes)
07:13 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28331 | BIP324 integration by sipa · Pull Request #28331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:14 < achow101> #topic libbitcoinkernel updates (TheCharlatan)
07:15 < TheCharlatan> I've been working towards removing the last few unwanted headers that are currently required to use the kernel library.
07:15 < TheCharlatan> As far as I know these are the boost multi index headers, the clientversion header and the bitcoin-config header.
07:15 < TheCharlatan> cfields opened a RFC pr for the clientversion https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28327
07:15 < TheCharlatan> Likewise, I opened a RFC pr for multi index https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28335
07:15 < TheCharlatan> The goal with these is to receive some feedback on the approaches and concept.
07:16 < TheCharlatan> that's it :)
07:16 < cfields> No need to look at 28327, I believe it'll be obsoleted by #25284 which IS interesting and worth reviewing :)
07:16 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25284 | net: Use serialization parameters for CAddress serialization by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #25284 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:17 < sipa> (is on my list, should be easy as i think it's based on my code...)
07:17 < achow101> #topic assumeutxo updates (jamesob)
07:18 < fjahr> if he is not here, some review progress on #27596, not much else I think
07:18 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27596 | assumeutxo (2) by jamesob · Pull Request #27596 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:19 < achow101> #topic Ad-hoc high priority for review
07:19 < josie> would love to see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28246 get merged
07:19 < achow101> Anything to add or remove from https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/1/views/4
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07:20 < josie> in general, I think it makes a lot of sense on its own, and I'm also building off of it in #28122
07:20 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28122 | Silent Payments: Implement BIP352 by josibake · Pull Request #28122 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:21 < achow101> josie: added it to the board
07:22 < Murch> I’d love to get more review on the Ancestor Aware Funding PR, #26152
07:22 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26152 | Bump unconfirmed ancestor transactions to target feerate by murchandamus · Pull Request #26152 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:22 < Murch> I think it’s pretty close, but currently has only 8 concept ACKs and one stale ACK
07:23 < achow101> Murch: will look at it, eventually
07:23 < Murch> Oh, 2 ACKs now :)
07:23 < achow101> #topic log api (_aj_)
07:24 < _aj_> hi, jon atack's been working on severity based logging for a while - #25203 - and been advocating for switching to its api in various prs eg https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28364#discussion_r1310579410
07:24 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25203 | Severity-based logging -- parent PR by jonatack · Pull Request #25203 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:25 < _aj_> i think it looks really clunky, `LogPrintLevel(BCLog::NET, BCLog::Level::Debug, "sendtxrcncl received ...` so a while ago suggested simplifying it, and more recently did a concrete PR #28318 based on that (giving LogDebug(BCLog::NET, "sendtxrc...") instead)
07:26 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28318 | logging: Simplify API for level based logging by ajtowns · Pull Request #28318 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:26 < _aj_> just wondered if people had thoughts, or if everyone's already agreed on LogPrintLevel(NET, DEBUG, "...") everywhere or ...
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07:27 < sipa> i don't have a particularly strong opinion, but avoiding clutter sounds nice
07:27 < achow101> less typing is more better?
07:28 < fanquake> It's not completely clear to me what the project is (I don't think it's been active for a while, until 20576 was reopened and description rewritten in the last hour?), what the benefits are, or what needs to be done (guess slightly clearer now with new PR description). The RFC/motivation in #20576 doesn't have much discussion at all.
07:28 < TheCharlatan> _aj_ I prefer LogDebug style
07:28 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20576 | RFC on logging improvements · Issue #20576 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:28 < fjahr> I does look clunky but I guess having a shorter alias for LogPrintLevel would also work for me, so no strong opinion...
07:28 < stickies-v> agreed that having clunky logging interface for the most common situations is not great, your approach in 28318 looks much cleaner indeed
07:28 < fanquake> Given it's not a priority project, I don't think it should be a blocker for PRs like 28364, especially when for contributors it's not necessarily clear what should be done
07:29 < Murch> Is jon_atack here perhaps?
07:29 < _aj_> assume not, but we could continue the conversation on the PRs?
07:30 < sipa> i think so
07:30 < achow101> Any other topics to discuss?
07:30 < fjahr> some probably read the previous conversation here, pinheadmz made a new github bot that currently lives in #bitcoin-core-github and now emulates the behavior of the matrix bridge/gh-bot. If people like it could be pointed on this channel as well. But I guess it’s also fine to have a separate channel, at least that also works for me. Just wanted to put it out there as an option.
07:31 < _aj_> fjahr: (yeah, i just made LogDebug an macro replacing with LogPrintLevel in my pr)
07:31 < fanquake> I assume a lot of the necessary changes could also be done with scripted diffs at some point? Rather than making each induvidual PR make changes etc.
07:31 < glozow> so should I just leave #28364 as is? I do personally prefer the less verbose api...
07:31 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28364 | log: log wtxids when possible, add TXPACKAGES category by glozow · Pull Request #28364 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:31 < josie> +1 that log severity project should not be a blocker for package relay PRs
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07:32 < fanquake> I think 28364 could be merged as-is, up to you though
07:32 < josie> glozow: +1 for leave as is, esp since it seems like discussion on the log stuff will be ongoing 
07:32 < instagibbs> priority project rule #1 pretty much
07:32 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1 | JSON-RPC support for mobile devices ("ultra-lightweight" clients) · Issue #1 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:32 < instagibbs> if/when direction on logging is set, things can be batch- changed
07:33 < lightlike> fanquake: I agree. I think if we change, we should change all logs of a given category together, and have some high-level plan of what kind of things goes into which severity level.
07:33 < glozow> ok awesome. maybe when we're all together we can have a deeper logging discussion. i will leave it as is and after it's merged, I'll open a PR with the txorphanage changes + tests.
07:34 < Murch> If people feel that it would be a worthwhile change, we could perhaps make the replacement of the logging plumbing a focus in the next release cycle?
07:34 < fanquake> lightlike: yea, the "what belongs in which catergory/severity level" isn't quite clear to me yet, and compunded with the unconditional logging and other things
07:35 < Murch> seems like a big enough thing to have a bunch of people coordinate on it
07:35 < instagibbs> I heard there's a meeting soon(TM), seems like a good topic
07:35 < _aj_> c++20 and cmake could make for a lot of plumbing changes next cycle
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07:36 < fanquake> Better oil up your wrench
07:36 < MacroFake> sed -i 's|Span|std::span|g' $( git grep -l Span )
07:37 < _aj_> using Span = std::span :)
07:37 < Murch> Modules are only expected with c++23, right? :(
07:37 < achow101> #endmeeting
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07:39 < _aj_> Murch: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/compiler_support/20 it's in c++20, but not fully supported by compilers other than MSVC?
07:40 < Murch> Well, I guess they’re still out in the future for us then
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07:40 < Murch> From what I understand that could eventually significantly speed up builds
07:41 < sipa> i'd expect that LTO actually mostly undoes that benefit
07:41 < Murch> What’s LTO?
07:41 < sipa> link-time optimisation
07:42 < _aj_> doesn't LTO seem like it slows down builds a bunch?
07:42 < sipa> yes, it does - but i'd expect that after LTO, modules don't change much
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07:43 < sipa> Murch: LTO is where the "compiler" only does a relatively cheap translation step to internal representation in the .o files, and the real conversion to machine language happens at link time (when all the .o get converted together to an executable), when all code is available, rather than just the code from a single .cpp file
07:43 < Murch> Hm, well, compiling is pretty slow for me, even on my desktop, so I was kinda excited
07:43 < fanquake> #25391 🥲
07:43 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25391 | guix: Use LTO to build releases by fanquake · Pull Request #25391 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:43 < sipa> even if we have module support, i doubt we'd actually convert a significant portion of the codebase to be module-based any time soon
07:44 < fanquake> parallelsim in the LTO backends (in newer compilers) has made it somewhat less bad at least
07:44 < _aj_> oh that's neat
07:44 < fanquake> There's also LLVMs ThinLTO, which can get a large portion of the benefits, with much less link time cost
07:44 < sipa> but fair enough, LTO is perhaps not really relevant in this discussion, because at dev time people likely won't use LTO anyway much, only at release build time
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07:44 < fanquake> however, we can't really use that unless we switch everything to an LLVM toolchain etc
07:46 < sipa> for context, an important reason why our compilation is slow is because there is a lot of code in header files - making it visible to all modules that use it, leading to better optimization (specifically, better inlining)
07:47 < sipa> both with LTO, and with modules (if my limited understanding serves right) there is much less need for having code in header files
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07:48 < sipa> and code is headers is especially painful for recompiling after a small change, because it means lots of compilation units change, causing lots of stuff to need recompilation
07:48 < sipa> thinlto allegedly allows incremental recompilation? that sounds pretty crazy
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07:52 < cfields> one clear benefit to me is that it lets you put your code where YOU want it,  as opposed to where the compiler wants it.  Having code in the cpp file as opposed to the header can be a big win for design and cleanliness.  But (as sipa said) the inlining you get from keeping everything in the header is often too hard too much to pass up.  Our serialization code, for ex, must be header-only in order to keep some pretty complex code compiling down to 
07:52 < cfields> (in some cases) a single instruction.  With LTO, all of that could be moved out into sane implementation files without sacrificing any speed.
07:53 < sipa> cfields: except for very templaty stuff, of course
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07:55 < cfields> right
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08:00 < josie> hebasto: am I able to rerun the "CI / Win64" ci task? in cirrus I'm able to go in and rerun stuff, but not sure how/if I can do that with the actions one
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08:02 < sipa> i believe it is actually not possible with actions
08:03 < sipa> (but i'm not very knowledgable about the topic)
08:04 < josie> bummer :/ the Win64 one is failing a lot recently, with a rerun usually passing
08:05 < sipa> josie: i think i've restarted yours
08:05 < sipa> 28122, right?
08:06 < josie> sipa: yep, ty! i see its rerunning now
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08:12 < _aj_> i guess we could setup drahtbot to watch for a rerun-failed-ci tag on PRs and trigger a rerun?
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08:16 < josie> _aj_: or figure out why the CI tasks keeps failing when it shouldnt be and fix it :)
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08:19 < hebasto> josie: https://gist.github.com/hebasto/60f4602243f6b79a5bea9720870b93e1
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13:01 < jamesob> did someone recently make a change that would result in coinscache disk flushes not logging by default?
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13:14 < lightlike> jamesob: #23235 maybe (although that was merged almost two years ago)
13:14 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23235 | Reduce unnecessary default logging by ajtowns · Pull Request #23235 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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14:25 < jamesob> lightlike: thanks. Hmm...
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 01 00:00:13 2023