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00:10 < lechuga_> trying to understand what the special output is going to look lke
00:10 < lechuga_> like*
00:11 < lechuga_> and what the corresponding input looks like on the sidechain
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03:24 < nsh> oh, there's an AMA
03:25 < nsh> "Update: Adam Back, Greg Maxwell, Pieter Wuille and the other authors of the sidechain paper will be conducting an AMA on Reddit, October 23, 2014 at 9:00 am PDT. Please join!"
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03:25 < nsh> .date
03:25 < nsh> .time
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03:25 < nsh> today then
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03:27 < gandalf> does it make sense for a small dht to have a blockchain?
03:27 < gandalf> let's say a network has multiple dhts and each dht has  a blockchain
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03:27 < gandalf> in a case where very node must be kepet fully connected to another node in the dht
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03:29 < nsh> gmaxwell had discussed (with cjd of cjdns) a DHT using a blockchain to control entry/membership as a DoS-prevention mechanism
03:29 < nsh> not sure of any other proposed hybrid systems
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03:32 < gandalf> can snarks theoretically replace blockchains?
03:33 < gandalf> ethereum people made claims that decentralized autonomous corporations are the first step towards AI
03:34 < gandalf> but with the current speed for confirmations i don't think this will ever be the case.
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03:38 < Luke-Jr> ugh, I should have slept
03:38 < Luke-Jr> gotta be up for 6+ more hours…
03:39 < justanotheruser> I don't see how DACs are a step towards AI, let alone the first
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03:49 < Luke-Jr> https://gitorious.org/geneticchat <-- first was in 2009? :P jk
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03:51 < nsh> heh
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04:39 < kanzure> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.6079v1.pdf "It turns out that by exploiting a Bitcoin built-in reputation based DoS protection an attacker is able to force specific Bitcoin peers to ban Tor Exit nodes of her choice."
04:41 < kanzure> "a totally virtual Bitcoin reality" well that's one way of saying it
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04:44 < kanzure> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/a-new-provable-factoring-algorithm/
04:44 < justanotheruser> interesting
04:44 < justanotheruser> re: blocking exit nodes
04:45 < justanotheruser> seems DoSing tor would be more expensive than blocking enough exit nodes from every client to partition the network
04:46 < justanotheruser> s/more/less
04:46 < kanzure> i suspect the more lucrative tor-related shennanigans will be inside the tor network itself, like correlating bitcoin traffic with tor traffic
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10:37 < lechuga_> can any1 explain to me what the special output will look like?
10:38 < lechuga_> i feel like im being obtuse
10:39 < lechuga_> sidechains.pdf remins me of reading bitcoin.pdf prior to seeing any code
10:39 < lechuga_> reminds*
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10:39 < zooko> Heh.
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10:48 < helo> might it be ~optimal to have one main sidechain off of bitcoin directly that is designed to have sidechains branched off of it?
10:50 < helo> (in reference to adam's AMA post, "It needs a recursive sidechain because there are more constraining requirements to return peg to bitcoin main. By having a side-chain to return to it can have features to facilitate more advanced things.")
10:50 < Luke-Jr> helo: that's the plan at the moment
10:51 < helo> is blockstream geographically centralized?
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11:26 < maaku> no
11:26 < maaku> lechuga_: there are many options for what the output would look like, which is why we didn't go into details
11:27 < kanzure> is there a way to preserve the current distribution of bitcoin in the blockchain on a sidechain, such that bitcoin would be locked on the sidechain from inception?
11:27 < lechuga_> maaku: thx. it would've helped my little brain to see one option maybe at the level of the appendix A detail
11:27 < kanzure> s/bitcoin/assets
11:27 < maaku> helo: we have people in five countries on two contenents
11:27 < kanzure> erm, i meant s/bitcoin would be locked/assets would be locked
11:27 < lechuga_> but i can appreciate this is maybe obvious for the intended audience of the whitepaper
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11:28 < maaku> lechuga_: we had that in an earlier draft but were worried that people would latch onto it as our proposed structure, when it really was a just a toy example
11:29 < maaku> there's a lot of in-the-weeds details to be worked out for an actual output structure
11:29 < lechuga_> i live in weeds :)
11:29 < lechuga_> that's fair
11:29 < lechuga_> would've loved to see that toy example tho
11:31 < helo> kanzure: you mean a coinbase transaction to a sidechain?
11:31 < maaku> i think iirc it involved OP_SPV_PROOF_VERIFY, but one of the things to be worked out was the exact details of its parameters
11:31 < lechuga_> that's where i get hungup
11:31 < lechuga_> and because of that i feel like the paper describes roughly half of a design (which probably isn't fair to say)
11:32 < kanzure> helo: no. i mean something like "some way to import all bitcoin, but disable them, such that if the main chain loses hashpower over time, that people who were not awake during the transition to the sidechain, can safely recover their bitcoin later"
11:33 < kanzure> by which i mean, if the sidechain does not merge changes upstream into bitcoin itself
11:34 < Taek> maaku: if you had included an example in the whitepaper, I probably would have latched into it in a way that you didn't intend. So it's probably good that you left things vague.
11:34 < kanzure> hmm, my question is not specific enough
11:35 < helo> kanzure: i think that's possible
11:36 < helo> for example, a sidechain that used some form of lamport signature scheme would be a nice place to stash long-term bitcoin if you were afraid of quantum computing
11:36 < kanzure> that's not what i mean
11:37 < kanzure> specifically i mean to enumerate the scenarios where there might be a temporal proof lockout time, that may not have been originally intended, but that otherwise might happen, as a result of someone not waking up on the bitcoin blockchain and forming a proof to transfer into the sidechain.
11:38 < kanzure> i am still being vague i think.
11:39 < amiller> i received a comment from gun sirer (the cornell selfish mining professor) that "the paper is lovely but makes the quintessential mistake of saying: first david chaum invented ecash, then there was bitcoin" and nothing in between.
11:39 < kanzure> in terms of cypherpunk memory i think that's how people legitimately remember it :)
11:40 < amiller> i'm not really even sure what i'd prioritize adding to cover more ground in a short review.
11:40 < lechuga_> reading the paper and having that be your key-takeway seems odd
11:40 < kanzure> did he offer some references?
11:41 < amiller> let me see what sort of stuff he cites in selfish mining paper
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11:43 < amiller> from majroity is not enough selfish mining paper "Decentralized digital currencies have been proposed before Bitcoin, starting with [11 chaum ecash] and followed by peer-to-peer currencies, e.g. [12 karma (gun sirers paper) ,13 PPay micrpyaments for p2p systems], and see [14 Zerocoin,4 Bitter to Better FC '12] for short surveys.
11:43 < kanzure> amiller: i should make a tool to expand silly "First Name, Last Name, Journal" citations into full citations with abstracts. because i've spent way too much time looking at a reference, only to later find out that i had read the paper before but only remembered the name. :(
11:43 < amiller> so... karma, ppay, i can imagine other examples might be like peppercoin and a few other things that basically never were proposed, may have had a startup around them, but never really took off.
11:44 < amiller> kanzure, indeed
11:44 < kanzure> ppay's architecture didn't seem very interesting to me. i only saw a few sentence review though.
11:44 < kanzure> ppay http://ilpubs.stanford.edu:8090/592/1/2003-31.pdf
11:45 < kanzure> "A broker is required ... [for] double spending protection" well why bother
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12:07 < gmaxwell> funny wrt chaum, many of the people who reviewed and worked on the paper worked on earlier digital currency systems. We weren't trying to suggest they didn't exist... it was mostly showing the start and then the lack of success to point out that the decenteralization was an essential part.
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12:35 < woah> So is the desire for sidechains primarily driven by people's existing Bitcoin monetary investments?
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12:40 < kanzure> no, there are many security benefits to understanding why hashpower and scarcity tend to be concentrated on a single chain
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12:42 < sipa> woah: the reasoning is that there is no need for multiple digital currencies with free-floating exchange between eachother, as sidechain allow us to have different technologies running the same currency
12:42 < woah> but what's wrong with a free-floating exchange rate?
12:42 < woah> i mean, you can get the mining benefits with aux-pow or merged mining
12:43 < woah> without messing with the exchange rates. seems people just want to lock in their btc investments
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12:44 < sipa> how is having two currencies, which are technically completely identical, better than having one?
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12:44 < gavinandresen> (sarcasm on) :  more money!  Means we’re all richer!  (sarcasm off)
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12:44 < woah> currency is somewhat of an analog for power
12:45 < kanzure> woah: do you know why multiple pow chains doesn't work?
12:45 < kanzure> multiple non-merge-mined pow chains
12:45 < woah> why not?
12:46 < kanzure> assume that it doesn't for a moment. wouldn't you agree that's an example of a motivation not driven by bitcoin monetary investments?
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12:46 < woah> yes, but the concept of PoW itself has huge problems
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12:47 < woah> anyway, sorry, not trying to troll
12:47 < woah> i'll give it a rest
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12:48 < amiller> i am starting to like thinking of other analogies for a sidechain, such as the treasury account of a corporation... the sidechain is the (digital autonomous etc) corporation and the bitcoins pegged into it are its funds
12:48 < amiller> the currency on the sidechain could be like the stocks of the corporation or like other instruments like the flyer miles etc
12:49 < amiller> the bitcoin reserve fund of the sidechain could be used to pay out dividends to the share holders at arbitrary times, it could be given out in a raffle, etc.
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12:49 < amiller> there's no technical need to have some kind of units on the sidechain that represent transferable units of the reserve currency
12:50 < amiller> also: you could easily have a sidechain with multiple parents
12:50 < woah> hmm cool
12:50 < kanzure> yes clearly bitcoin is too simple and what we really need is a blockgraph
12:50 < woah> but the parents must be pegged to each other right?
12:50 < kanzure> (/sarc)
12:50 < amiller> the parents don't need to be pegged to each other at all no
12:51 < amiller> my dissenting opinion w.r.t. the whitepaper is conflating the mechanism (using spv-ish proofs to have one blockchain control funds on another blockchain) with one of many possible applications "2 way peg"
12:52 < sipa> amiller: sidechains vs pegged sidechains :)
12:52 < sipa> though admittedly we do not mention any other use cases
12:52 < amiller> sure... but the "technique" in the paper is referred to as "pegging" which i think is just slightly misleading
12:53 < amiller> sipa, the freicoin is a reasonable example but still basically involves "exchange rates" so i think it gets readers to assuming there's some kind of restriction that isn't actually technically there
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13:54 < sl01_> is there a simple way to cryptograpically prove you control a certain # of bitcoins outputs at a block # w/o disclosing the addresses/outputs? is this the same thing or related to the proof of reserve stuff that some exchanges use?
13:55 < nsh> number or value?
13:55 <@gwillen> sl01_: the proof of reserve stuff I've seen involves the exchange proving ownership of specific outputs (the thing that it doesn't reveal is the balances of the individual users)
13:56 < sl01_> nsh: number of (total) bitcoins
13:56  * nsh nods
13:57 < sl01_> effectively proving to someone you hold a certain amt of value w/o people being able to start stalking/investigating/doxxing you
13:57 <@gwillen> this is basically what zerocoin did (I'm not following what those folks are doing now)
13:57 < moa> sl01_: i think the exchanges are signing messages with the keys associated with addresses containing bitcoins ...
13:57  * nsh thinks
13:57 <@gwillen> you would lock some coins in exchange for a proof that you own a certian number of coins, without having to reveal which ones went in
13:59 < nsh> you could do through coinswaps
13:59 < nsh> but you'd need people to do it with, which decreases the utility
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14:02 < nsh> *coinjoins
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14:04 < sl01_> yea i mean if you have a way to mix that you can trust you can just sign w the actual outputs and then go mix them afterwards, effectively accomplishing the same goal, but i was wondering if there was an offline way to do it
14:05  * nsh nods
14:05 < nsh> i don't think so but could be stupid
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14:05 < nsh> well
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14:06 < sl01_> i wonder what practical things could be accomplished with that other than anonymous bragging...
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14:08 < nsh> even if you could, you'd only be demonstrating the ability to spend all the outputs at one point in time (which you can timestamp) but that's no guarantee some weren't spent immediately after
14:08 < sl01_> yea
14:08 < sl01_> that still says something
14:08 < nsh> right
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15:13 < petahash> hello
15:17 < amiller> 'lo
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15:22 < petahash> whats doing
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15:37 < petahash> apparently something is happening tomorow with the SEC rumours?
15:50 < sl01_> petahash: tomorrow something is happening with the SEC, or with the SEC rumors (are they being modified)?
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15:51 < petahash> these are rumours and stupid rumours if not true
15:51 < gmaxwell> petahash: probably the wrong channel for your questions.
15:52 < Taek> is there a blockstream related channel?
15:52 < gmaxwell> (but I have no clue what you're talking about but highly doubt they're related to this channel)
15:52 < petahash> thank you, i will change the topic
15:52 < gmaxwell> Taek: not currently.
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15:59 < amiller> gmaxwell, did you look at that cut & choose yao garbled circuits paper that i think is the same as your simple secure computation thing
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16:36 < IHB> I hope all is well guys. Is there a channel specifically related to the decentralized vs centralized debate in regards to bitcoin mining?
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16:41 < nsh> IHB, probably here if it's theoretical
16:42 < nsh> there is #bitcoin-mining too, but i'd guess it's more practically orientated and perhaps a bit noisy
16:44 < IHB> yes it is. i am still fleshing out some thoughts. i have been reading lots of info and wanted to see if i could connect with someone who knows more than me on this topic. in no way am i a newbie to mining or how it works, i consulted at cointerra for a bit to actually get an insider look at how the sausage is made. i have a very strong opinion now and wanted reallt test my theory with someone. look for an expert on this topic wh
16:44 < kanzure> you are suffering from irc message length cutoff and should fix your client
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16:47 < lechuga_> or fix your CR frequency
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16:49 < IHB> i would rather keep them short. but of course will look into how to fix it if i really find the need to type more
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16:59 < jgarzik> IHB, Just say your theory out loud :)
17:00 < jgarzik> IHB, in general, pushing in the direction of the "decentralized" goal posts is preferred
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17:02 < IHB> jgarzik, yup. that is very obvious to me. and yes i do want to publish it. but i am working on it with friends who live in india and we are really not ready
17:04 < IHB> to waste anyone's time yet. i am the founder of ihavebitcoins.com and don't want to mix the two because this is not us covering the news
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17:04 < sl01_> IHB: either show some proof you're someone worth working privately with or post it publicly
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17:05 < IHB> just not ready for it to be public unless we are 100% sure becasue india govt would need to be invovled and to approach this is a dance
17:05  * sl01_ dances
17:05 < moa> dancing indians? sounds interesting
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19:07 < justanotheruser> What are the major problems with distributing the block reward between the next 100 blocks? Obviously it lowers the incentive to include a tx, but it is likely that transactors will set the fees and miners will be happy to take whatever extra they can get.
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19:19 < amiller> justanotheruser, i guess that only makes sense for fees rather than bonuses
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19:19 < justanotheruser> amiller: bonuses? you mean subsidy?
19:19 < amiller> i dunno it seems reasonable to me, what do you think it's supposed to help with
19:20 < amiller> yeah the subsidy
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19:20 < justanotheruser> amiller: tx fee variance
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19:24 < amiller> i dunno its interesting, i guess the miner who accepts your tx isn't necessarily the only one whos actions are relevant to getting your tx approved (if there are a choice of blocks to build on)
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19:25 < justanotheruser> amiller: generally there shouldn't be a choice of blocks to build on
19:25 < amiller> its so hard to do the rational modeling though, like if you follow the Red Balloons paper, you should pay some of your fees to your peers who might relay your transactions, and you might want to pay mining pools directly via a side channel instead of through miner fees
19:28 < kanzure> what about starting with simpler models and then working up to bitcoin
19:28 < moa> like backroom deals with miners
19:29 < amiller> yeah like those
19:29 < moa> ;)
19:31 < kanzure> amiller: what about, and this may not make sense, modeling the "bitcoinness of bitcoin" for the original few blocks, in particular the first when it was just satoshi, and then when it was satoshi and hal. there's still an adversary problem there but it's a much simpler one i think.
19:31 < amiller> petertodd said something about austin hill trying to make "back room deals" with mining pools, i wish i knew what that was about
19:31 < kanzure> or maybe the model is exactly the same with just two participants telling each other what bitcoin is
19:31 < moa> "Side channels and other experiments in subterfuge and applied crypto"
19:32 < amiller> if mining pool leaders were at a conference i was at i'd want to chat with them, and if i were working on a big project i'd want to tell them all about that too
19:33 < kanzure> that's like complaining that someone talked to luke-jr. many people speak with luke-jr.
19:34 < moa> anyone have any numbers on how widespread forward sales of mined bitcoins might be?
19:34 < kanzure> also, distributing bitcoin software should be modeled as infectious or gossip or something, where any node in the network can share a modified version or something
19:34 < amiller> kanzure, that's pretty dangerous though wouldn't do it without an airgap
19:34 < amiller> he can speak tonal and crash your brain
19:35 < zooko> ☺
19:35 < kanzure> amiller: http://web.archive.org/web/20110729215301/http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm
19:35 < kanzure> (some science fiction that approximates that scenario)
19:37 < moa> i suppose you could put commitments for forward sales of mined coins onto a sidechain ... would that be inflationary?
19:39 < moa> in the near term only
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22:46 < Taek> Given my current understanding of txn forwarding incentives, I don't feel like there are sufficient incentives for forwarding txns to all miners
22:46 < Taek> one viewpoint might suggest that miners don't need to forward expensive txns, and that the burden of distribution falls on the person making the transaction
22:47 < Taek> but if you could establish an incentive system such that there's clear value to a miner forwarding expensive txns to other miners, directly corolated with how valuable the fee is
22:48 < Taek> then I feel like you'd have an improved system
22:50 < Taek> like some situation where all miners benefit in the short term from the appearance of a txn in the blockchain, regardless of who mined the block.
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22:53 < Taek> idea:
22:53 < Taek> suppose you have a decaying txn fee, that pays out over the next N blocks
22:54 < justanotheruser> Taek: 22:24 < amiller> i dunno its interesting, i guess the miner who accepts your tx isn't necessarily the only one whos actions are relevant to getting your tx approved (if there are a choice of  blocks to build on)
22:54 < Taek> so, if the txn makes it in block t, the fee is X coins. But if the txn makes it in block t+1, the fee is X-Y
22:54 < justanotheruser> err, I guess I should just say read the scrollback, there is a bit more discussios
22:54 < Taek> or you have it decay exponentially
22:55 < justanotheruser> Taek: whatever your function is, you are just balancing between optomizing tx inclusion incentive and fee variance
22:56 < Taek> the decay gives you incentive to relay the txn
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22:57 < Taek> optimizing to minimize fee variance definitely comes at the cost of immediate tx inclusion incentive
22:57 < Taek> but it also means that you don't merely pay for the block that mines it, you also pay for the blocks that confirm it
23:00 < Taek> You might actually only need to spead the fee across 2 or 3 blocks
23:01 < Taek> rational miners still have incentive to propagate a decaying transaction, because mining a fee that's only decayed 1 block is superior to mining a fee that's decayed 2 or 3 blocks
23:04 < justanotheruser> Taek: I don't think 2 or 3 blocks would be sufficient
23:04 < justanotheruser> the variance in block size right now high throughout the day, but not so much between bolkcs
23:05 < justanotheruser> https://i.imgur.com/DgECDlt.png
23:05 < Taek> that's a pretty jumpy graph
23:06 < Taek> the value of doing a reorg drops off exponentially the more blocks you mine, because you have such a reduced probability of succeding in the reorg
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23:20 < Taek> http://pastebin.com/AkMRD4aU
23:21 < Taek> ^ with the above strategy you mitigate the attack but a full 1/2 of the txn fee pays out in the block it's mined in
23:27 < Taek> no wait forgot to merge the fees from each block
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23:54 < Taek> justanotheruser: http://pastebin.com/a0QBiEJF, pretty sure I got things right this time
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23:55 < Taek> *justanot1eruser
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 24 00:00:10 2014