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00:00 < justanot1eruser> Taek: your thesis works if you add "we assume the miner doesn't care about network health, just block rewards at the echange rate at the moment"
00:00 < justanot1eruser> and it still works if you remove the two assumptions you have listed
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00:01 < justanot1eruser> I agree that an exponential decay is bad
00:01 < justanot1eruser> uniform between the 100 blocks seems like it would work the best
00:03 < Taek> *I was talking about a different decay
00:03 < Taek> I think that a pool spitting out 33% of its contents seems to be incetive-safe
00:04 < justanot1eruser> what, so they get 67% of the reward?
00:05 < Taek> Each fee is added to a pool, which is the same pool across all blocks. That pool pays out 33% of its contents as a miner fee each block.
00:08 < Taek> So if block 1 has 1 coin of fees, reward #1 is .33. If block 2 has 1 coin, reward #2 is (1.66)(.33) = .549
00:09 < justanot1eruser> so you're saying they spit out a 67% fee
00:11 < Taek> The fee pool gets 67% of the new fees, and gives miners 33% of the new fees plus some of the leftover fees from earlier blocks.
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01:31 < Emcy> http://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079
01:31 < Emcy> is suppose its likely you already know about this
01:33 < nsh> looks like good work. problems were known in the abstract but not the specifics of reputation system poisoning etc. i think
01:34 < Emcy> is there a solution
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01:35 < nsh> well, it's murky i think. most of the time the problem is people having a wrong sense of what they are achieving and what they are paying for it by using tor
01:36 < nsh> you could wrap bitcoin traffic in some crypto for integrity but that requires something to unwrap it on the other side, so you may as well be using a vpn
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01:37 < nsh> making the reputation system robust against network-level adversaries feels like it wouldn't really be possible in the general case
01:39 < nsh> but it makes a strong case for the benefits of increased anonymity. the attacks become less useful if you can't target them effectively
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01:48 < wumpus> "see Appendix A for the list of these Bitcoin onion addresses). This results in (1) a very small probability for a client to choose a peer available as a hidden service" ... this chance will be larger in 0.10.x, because the client includes a list of onion fixed seeds
01:49 < wumpus> also you can tell your client to only use onions w/ onlynet=tor
01:50 < wumpus> that doesn't make it impossible that someone DoSes all the onion peers, of course, but avoids the exit-node specific attacks
01:51 < nsh> there are onion seeds hardcoded into 0.10.x?
01:52 < wumpus> yes
01:52 < nsh> hmm
01:52 < wumpus> in addition to the ipv4 seeds that already in there (the only thing missing is ipv6 seeds)
01:52  * nsh nods
01:53 < wumpus> but we should certainly encourage more people to run connectable onion peers, that will reduce the feasibility of dosing them all
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01:55 < nsh> right
01:56 < wumpus> (not that I've seen such an attack actually happen yet, as with SSL mitm attacks this is a kind of attack that leaves a lot of evidence)
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01:58 < wumpus> not only because of this attack, but for isolation attacks in general, we really need a way to detect the case and warn the user about it
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01:59 < nsh> how do you detect isolation? non-isolation can generally be simulated
01:59 < wumpus> (this is not really something now, it has been discussed before a few times)
02:01 < wumpus> nsh: yes, but you can make assumptions, given that your attacker doesn't have as much hashpower as the entire network
02:02 < nsh> right
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06:18 < instagibbs> kanzure: I *love* that short story. reading irc logs I thought the same thing before clicking your link
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08:27 < OP_NULL> wumpus: nsh: be very careful making assumptions about the utility of onion routed peers. with IPv4 there's an inherent cost in buying many IP addresses in different /32. there's not in making multiple onion addresses. are more "peers" valuable if they are sybils?
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08:27 < nsh> right
08:29 < wumpus> OP_NULL: sure, the only advantage there is that there is no exit node that can mitm and that the onion address authenticates the node, but it certainly doesn't avoid sybil attacks
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08:33 < jgarzik> In fact, making multiple onion addresses approaches a necessary defense mechanism
08:33 < jgarzik> If you want to run a professional site, public .onions are easy and obvious targets.  You have clear incentives to create a private address for your clients.
08:33 < jgarzik> Yet, "a" private address is also poor, and might be leaked.  Therefore, you want an onion for each user...
08:34 < wumpus> indeed, they're like bitcoin addresses in that regard :)
08:34 < jgarzik> :)
08:34 < jgarzik> So much about Tor sucks, sigh.
08:34 < jgarzik> and yet, it sucks less than freenet and alternatives
08:35 < kanzure> clearly we should all switch to pipenet?
08:35 < wumpus> I hear a lot about I2P, but have never tried it
08:35 < OP_NULL> jgarzik: that’s a fairly undesirable property. it’s costless (outside of modifying the node) for somebody to run infinite onion addresses nodes and saturate the addr (and fixed seed node entries) with ones which are their own. easy partitioning.
08:36 < jgarzik> Tor directory servers are another vulnerability point, and are central to any multi-.onion scheme
08:36 < wumpus> it would be a really obvious and visible attack, though
08:37 < OP_NULL> would it? can you tell me that all of the ones in use today aren't the same?
08:37 < wumpus> yes, because I run a few myself and know a few others
08:38  * jgarzik needs to turn on Tor, on my cloudatcost bitcoin node
08:41 < OP_NULL> wumpus: you know what I was getting at.
08:46 < jgarzik> wumpus is right.  It Would Be Noticed.
08:46 < helo> i'm satisfied knowing the .onion addresses of a few different ~trustworthy people
08:46 < jgarzik> There's theory and then there's practice...  in practice humans run nodes and care that the network works, and monitor tons of network health metrics.
08:47 < helo> it would be obvious if someone was paying attention... what exactly would it look like, and are there any nodes looking out for it?
08:47 < jgarzik> can't just look at a system in isolation, on paper
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08:52 < OP_NULL> jgarzik: even if people were that attentive, what would happen once noticed?
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08:53 < jgarzik> connectivity suffers, directory servers note bucket oddities, things stop working, Tor becomes less useful -> DoS
08:54 < hearn> helo: if you're talking about the "ban all the exits except the evil ones" attack i expect alon and chris would notice
08:54 < OP_NULL> hearn: we're talking about onion sybil peers, not exiting connections.
08:55 < helo> i suppose it would look like a spam of "inputs already spent" and stale blocks
08:55 < helo> from the sybil-attempting peers
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09:03 < OP_NULL> helo: only if partitioning was attempted, and only if you were connected to at least one non-sybil peer. it’s easy for the attacker to tell if they've successfully partitioned a node because the peer would stop relaying new blocks and transactions that weren't visible on the isolated shard.
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09:42 < MRL-Relay> [surae] howdy yall
09:42 < MRL-Relay> [surae] is andytoshi or gmaxwell on?
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09:45 < sipa> maybe!
09:48 < pigeons> what's MRL
09:48 < rfreeman_w> surae, gmaxwell is here. what is MRL anyway
09:48 < MRL-Relay> [surae] Monero Research Lab
09:48 < rfreeman_w> oh. I should had known that lol
09:48 < MRL-Relay> [surae] yep :D
09:48 < MRL-Relay> [surae] well, I'm thinking about zero-knowledge proofs
09:49 < MRL-Relay> [surae] and I was hoping someone who had already been thinking about them at least once upon a time could comment on their size/speed and feasibility in cryptocurrencies.
09:49 < amiller> what kind of zero knowledge proofs
09:49 < amiller> there are a ton of approaches depending on what kind of statements you want to proof
09:50 < rfreeman_w> I guess zerocoin?
09:51 < nsh> SNARKs are approaching practical usability. there's a library and you can make... things... i think
09:51 < nsh> but a lot of work is needed still
09:52 < nsh> --
09:52 < nsh> The ppzkSNARK supports proving/verifying membership in a specific NP-complete language: R1CS (rank-1 constraint systems). An instance of the language is specified by a set of equations over a prime field F, and each equation looks like: < A, (1,X) > * < B , (1,X) > = < C, (1,X) > where A,B,C are vectors over F, and X is a vector of variables.
09:52 < nsh> -- https://github.com/scipr-lab/libsnark
09:52 < nsh> so technically, you can make |o/ All The Things, but g'luck with that
09:54 < MRL-Relay> [surae] right, that's kinda where my head was at: they are neat and stuff, but impractical right now
09:55 < MRL-Relay> [surae] maybe that will change in a few years.
09:55 < nsh> it'll change in a certain number of workhours :)
09:56 < nsh> though faster hardware will help too
10:01 < kanzure> http://mpclounge.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/publicly-auditable-secure-multiparty-computation/
10:01 < kanzure> http://mpclounge.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/faster-maliciously-secure-two-party-computation-using-the-gpu/
10:03 < nsh> hmmm
10:05 <@gwillen> surae: I am not terribly wizardly, but my understanding is that the biggest practical problem with SNARKs is not encoding the problems into the snark language, but rather the insane slowdown in performing the execution-and-proof
10:05 <@gwillen> insane being like, a billion to one or something
10:05 < sipa> sounds accurate
10:05 < sipa> + the efficient ones need a trusted setup, iirc?
10:06 < sipa> (i am really just mirroring things i've heard from gmaxwell here)
10:06 <@gwillen> oh, I didn't even realize that was a tradeoff
10:06  * gwillen nods
10:06 < adam3us> yes and the bleeding edge crypto assumptions that they need is a risk in the sense that if the crypto breaks you might lose your money
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10:07 < nsh> on the other hand, the view from the moon is breathtaking
10:08 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/
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10:16 < MRL-Relay> [surae] gwillin thanks, i had heard of a 98%+ improvement in efficiency for zerocash over the original zerocoin protocol, but it had a trusted setup
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10:18 < nsh> dunno what's happening with zerocash
10:18 < adam3us> zerocash is conservative crypto, so its main problems are: trusted setup (an RSA key where the private key must be deleted by someone); that the coins are large (20-40kB with reasonable security parameters); and that there is only one denomination
10:18 < adam3us> sorry s/zerocash/zerocoin/ ^^
10:19 < MRL-Relay> [surae] i was under the impression that zerocoin got their sizes down to 1kb and speeds down to 6ms, but again requiring a trusted setup
10:19 < MRL-Relay> [surae] what do you mean by conservative crypto, though?
10:20 < nsh> no media activity or website updates since may, it seems from a glance at http://zerocash-project.org/talks_and_media
10:21 < tacotime> nsh: it's an academic lab, they probably ran out of grants and moved on to something else i'd guess
10:21  * nsh smiles
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10:26 < adam3us> surae: not that i heard. paper?
10:26 < MRL-Relay> [surae] the original zerocash paper... sec
10:27 < adam3us> surea: what i mean is zerocoin relies on strong RSA assumption (benaloh RSA accumulators) and discrete log, and cut-and-choose ie those are all things that everyone is already relying on as being secure
10:28 < MRL-Relay> [surae] not that i heard. paper? <--- what hadn't you heard, then?
10:29 < adam3us> snarks with weil pairing and other assumptions on top are new assumptions.  maybe they'll get broken
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10:35 < MRL-Relay> [surae] ooooh
10:36 < MRL-Relay> [surae] i misunderstood you earlier I think.
10:36 < adam3us> surae: yeah you said 6ms/1KB i dont think zerocoin got that low. but i mistyped zerocash/zerocoin at one point above
10:37 < adam3us> surae: other than the trusted setup (RSA private key) I am quite confident in the security assumptions of the zerocoin protocol.  i cant say the same for zerocash.  maybe we wont be able to say the same for snarks for 10-20 years unless someone finds a way to do it with more conservative assumptions even if its slower.
10:38 < MRL-Relay> [surae] yeah, zerocoin never got that low, zerocash did http://zerocash-project.org/media/pdf/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf
10:39 < MRL-Relay> [surae] i see what you are saying then
10:39 < adam3us> surae: and thats disappointing because SNARKs have very useful properties for cryptocurrency. eg particularly if you can have the snark program be validation of a sidechain, that is an amazing implication: that you can provide a compact proof without the data just the hash of the data, that all of the inputs added up to outputs since dawn.
10:39 < MRL-Relay> [surae] thanks adam3us
10:39 <@gwillen> adam3us: I have always had the feeling that we ought to be able to find SOME reasonable way to do trusted setup
10:39 < adam3us> surae: even bitcoin main itself could potentially assure a SPV client and elevate its security to full node equivalent with tiny bandwidth requirements
10:40 <@gwillen> if you do n-way multiparty computation with enough mutually-untrusting parties... you do only have to do it once, it's okay if it's very slow.
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10:41 < MRL-Relay> [surae] i wonder if there's a way for enough mutually untrusting parties to come to a consensus about trusting a setup. that'd be nice. but, again, we're talking holy grails of cryptocurrencies
10:42 < MRL-Relay> [surae] i suppose you could have some initial chain of proof-of-work arguments. everyone across the network proposes a different setup, everyone starts hashing, eventually someone will win, and then from that point on you have a "trusted" setup that was agreed upon by the proof-of-work chain
10:43 < MRL-Relay> [surae] is that what you mean by "you only have to do it once?"
10:43 < andytoshi> surae: the trusted setup party absolutely needs to be identifiable
10:44 < MRL-Relay> [surae] well that's that, then. :\
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10:47 < MRL-Relay> [surae] allright, so, I'm leaving for a few days and I want to get some reading done about two topics: 1) sidechains and 2) the current state of NIZK usage in the cryptocurrency context. anyone have a crucial reading list? andytoshi? adam3us?
10:48 < nsh> surae: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/
10:48 < amiller> zerocoin doesn't need snarks, just RSA assumptoin
10:48 < amiller> most of what's possible with SNARKs in zerocash you could also do with RSA accumulators and standard zero knowledge, the main disadvantage is the proofs are way larger.
10:48 < amiller> (scrolling up this exactly duplicates what adam said but w/e :)
10:49 < MRL-Relay> [surae] nsh perfect, exactly what i was looking for
10:49 < nsh> thank kanzure :)
10:50 < MRL-Relay> [surae] all praise to kanzure, then. :D I'll be back later, but I prefer lurking in this channel so I don't reveal my own ignorance too often
10:50 < andytoshi> surae: the sidechains wp is http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
10:51 < andytoshi> surae: don't think there is anything else written up, i recall in the days before the release people would ask and we had no good links for them ... that is a superset of the mailing list posts that we used to reply with
10:52 < MRL-Relay> [surae] ha
10:52 < MRL-Relay> [surae] danke
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12:18 < amiller> this is my new eprint http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/857 Pseudonymous Secure Computation from Time-Lock Puzzles
12:18 < amiller> it's a formal modeling sort of thing. it's not directly about bitcoin, but sort of taking a step back from bitcoin and looking at what's possible with bitcoinlike assumptions (about resources rather than identities)
12:20 < amiller> we make some stronger assumptions than usual in bitcoin (but normal for crypto world) like that there are a fixed set of n parties and they have the same hashpower
12:21 < amiller> one big difference from bitcoin is that we are mainly using sequential proofs of work, that aren't "progress-free"
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12:23 < amiller> the main result is a protocol that's like the "Dolev-Strong Byzantine Agreement" protocol but uses proof of work rather than assuming there's a preestablished pki
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12:24 < amiller> and it's a really general result in the sense that once you have this, you can basically bootstrap a pki by assigning everyone a pseudonym based on their proofs-of-work and you can then do pseudonymous versions of all the other sorts of things cryptographers know how to do assuming you start with a PKI, like secure multiparty computation on arbitrary circuits
12:26 < amiller> my favorite part is probably the observation that all the definitions used in modern cryptography implicitly have some kind of "real name" assumption, and that has to be relaxed if you want to prove things in a resource-based rather than identity-based world.
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12:53 < nsh> amiller!
12:53 < nsh> sorry, i just got reflexively excited by the phrase "time-lock puzzles" because i'm sad
12:55 < nsh> when you say "assign everyone a pseudonym based on their proofs-of-work" what does that mean. are proofs-of-work not fungible? are they somehow unique?
12:58  * nsh reads the paper
12:59 < justanotheruser> Taek: The more blocks the fee is distributed between, the more hash power you need to make a reorg profitable given how the number of transactions vary between the day. There are > 50% more blocks at the peak of the day than there are at the trough.
12:59 < justanotheruser> oops s/blocks/mb
13:00 < kanzure> amiller: interesting that cryptography has that assumption about names or identities. often they don't care who the adversary is, just that there is one.. right?
13:01 < justanotheruser> I do like that this idea is a softfork though.
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13:18 < nsh> .wik homonymous networks
13:18 < yoleaux> "AIBO (Artificial Intelligence Robot, homonymous with aibō (相棒?), "pal" or "partner" in Japanese) is an iconic series of robotic pets designed and manufactured by Sony. Sony announced a prototype robot in mid-1998. The first consumer model was introduced on May 11, 1999. New models were released every year until 2005." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIBO
13:18 < nsh> heh
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15:27 < gmaxwell> someone might want to try for a better answer here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k7tsu/what_exactly_is_a_softfork/
15:27 < gmaxwell>  I am pretty much reddited out at this point.
15:28 < justanotheruser> "A soft fork can occur when the disagreement is just about what types of transactions are considered valid by a peer, and therefore may or may not be broadcast to its own peers."
15:28 < justanotheruser> wat
15:28 < gmaxwell> yes, thats why I repeated the url here.
15:28 < gmaxwell> it's reddit, the people aren't (usually) stupid, just a lot of ignorance on more subtle technical things.
15:29 < gmaxwell> go forth and educate.
15:37 < justanotheruser> looks like someone responded
15:37 < kanzure> gmaxwell: this looks okay to me http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k7tsu/what_exactly_is_a_softfork/clixmzu
15:38 < kanzure> although i'm not sure about restricting soft forks to "valid becomes invalid" and hard forks to "invalid becomes valid or broken backwards compatibility"
15:39 < justanotheruser> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k7tsu/what_exactly_is_a_softfork/clixsf4 too
15:39 < gmaxwell> Yes, thats correct enough.  (the details they give wrt 0.8 aren't right but whatever)
15:40 < gmaxwell> yea, thats right too, though perhaps fails to explain how this can usefully be used to add new functionality... makes it sound like it only takes things away (which is strictly true, but the statue of david was created by simply taking away marble; it's an unconventional way to look a things for most people)
15:41 < moa> without cold there is no heat, without darkness there is no light
15:42 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: well softforks are only to take away blocks from the set of valid blocks :P
15:42 < justanotheruser> I see what you're saying though
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15:43 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: yea, it's correct. It's just that people don't immediately see how you can add powerful new functionality, by taking a 'do anything' part of the protocal and taking away all the things except the feature you want. :)   may be more obvious to think that way to people who played with CSG cad systes like pov ray in their misspent youth.
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15:44 < nsh> hmm
15:44 < nsh> how is it like CAD systems?
15:44 < nsh> the parallel is lost on me
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15:45 < moa> pov ray yikes
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15:49 < gmaxwell> nsh: in constructive solid geometry your primitives are solids and planes (e.g. spheres, cubes, cyliners, toruses, cones) and you creat things by doing boolean operations with the shapes. (this as opposed to triangle mesh cad systems, which are much less fun)
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15:50 < nsh> oh, like the method marge is taught when she learns to paint
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15:51 < nsh> --
15:51 < nsh>    Now, using the Lombardo method, you learn to see everyday objects
15:51 < nsh>    as a simple grrouping of geometrical shapes.  Heah, we see how two
15:51 < nsh>    concentric circles, various trapezoids, ellipses, and yes! even a rrhombus!
15:51 < nsh>    can create an adorable little bunny-rabbit.  It's just that easy!
15:51 < nsh>    -- Professor Lombardo's art lecture, ``Brush with Greatness''
15:51 < nsh> -- http://www.snpp.com/episodes/7F18.html
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15:53 < gmaxwell> seems there is a WP page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_solid_geometry
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15:54 < nsh> in amiller's paper:
15:54 < nsh> --
15:54 < nsh> Hence, regardless of the distribution of computing resources among honest participants in the Bitcoin network, puzzle solutions arrive according to a Poisson process. Miller et al. [30] point out that this property is essential to the operation of Bitcoin, since it guarantees that independent participants do not duplicate much work;
15:54 < nsh> in [29], it is argued that this process is integral to Bitcoin's incentive structure, since it ensures even weak participants have a proportional chance of finding the next puzzle solution and thereby earning a reward.
15:54 < amiller> gmaxwell, i want to talk about your 2 party computation protocol and why it's 2^n when yao + cut&choose is only k*n or so
15:54 < nsh> -- is this argued, or just progress-freeness? or are they equivalent?
15:55 < nsh> can you have a progress-free process where successes are not poisson distributed?
15:55 < amiller> nsh, it's not argued (not that well anyway) just stated
15:55  * nsh nods
15:55 < amiller> the definition of progress free implies poisson
15:55 < nsh> right, thought as much
15:55 < amiller> exponential distribution is *the* memoryless distribution
15:55 < gmaxwell> amiller: the quadratic comes from having to commit to all the potential combination keys, but you only use a small portion of them.
15:56 < amiller> exponential 2^n not just n^2? maybe i read that wrong
15:56 < gmaxwell> If the commitment scheme was xor homomorpic it wouldn't need that, but getting an xor homomorphic version requires fancier crypto.
15:56 < amiller> oh i did read that wrong
15:56 < amiller> so, the standard yao + cut and choose doens't use any other primitives except hashes and symmetric encryption just like yors
15:56 < gmaxwell> it's quadratic thats all. (plus constants, which may be kinda ugly for acceptable security)
15:56 < amiller> why commit to all combination?
15:57 < gmaxwell> Because it's non-interative and I use a fiat shamir.
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16:00 < amiller> yeah the cut-and-choose protocol can also be made noninteractive using fiat shamir  http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-72540-4_4#page-1
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16:03 < gmaxwell> amiller: yes, I cite that paper at the bottom; it requires asymetric crypto for setting up oblivious transfer.
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16:04 < amiller> you cite a different paper using a homomorphic encryption scheme
16:04 < gmaxwell> hmm!
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16:05 < gmaxwell> indeed it is a different paper, but it's not really homormorphic.
16:05 < amiller> sorry homomorphic commitment scheme
16:05 < gmaxwell> They instatiate oblivious transfer and use it to construct a xor homomorpic commitment.
16:06 < nsh> is there a concise way to state how oblivious transfer enables secure computation/evaluation without additional primitives?
16:06 < nsh> not at all intuitively obvious
16:07 < gmaxwell> In any case, my goal was no asymetric crypto, I wanted no black boxes that joe-coder would regard as magic... just hashfunctions and statistics.
16:07 < amiller> i see
16:07 < amiller> nsh, oblivious transfer is "universal", with an oblivious transfer gadget alone you can implement basically the full suite of multiparty computation functinoalities
16:08 < nsh> mm
16:08 < nsh> oh, i think i see
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16:09 < gmaxwell> I've found when talking to people about ZKP getting them to accept that they're possible at all (forget succinct, or even remotely efficient) is sometimes challenging ... because random computing people just have no idea how you'd even try to build something like that.
16:09 < nsh> it's just an extension of the kid's algorithm to fairly divide cake or whatever
16:09 < kanzure> amiller: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/An%20efficient%20protocol%20for%20secure%20two-party%20computation%20in%20the%20presence%20of%20malicious%20adversaries.pdf
16:09 < kanzure> (your springerkink link)
16:09 < nsh> because you can't know which half the other kid will pick, your optimum is to split evenly
16:09 < gmaxwell> or at least accept that ZKP for _general_ computation is possible. people accept narrow ZKP fine.
16:09 < nsh> except now we're dealing with honest and dishonest evaluations
16:09 < nsh> but it's still reliant on the inability to know which one will be chosen
16:10 < amiller> okay, i'll see if anyone knows any other way of doing it with no OT, or if that's maybe optimal. it's pretty neat
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16:11 < gmaxwell> nsh: IIRC (been a while since I looked) in these things what you basically do is have one person give you encrypted logic gates, and the other person executes without knowing what they're executing (because the gates are encrypted).  You use the oblivious transfer so that they can find out exactly one gate output value (and not the other), but you don't let the other party know what output value you were getting.
16:12 < nsh> hmmm
16:12 < gmaxwell> So at the end of the circuit you end up with the answer, but you don't know anything about how you got there (it was all encrypted) and the other guy doesn't know anything about what you executed, because he couldn't tell which gate output you were reading.
16:13 < nsh> it's fascinating how this stuff converges on quantum information theory
16:14 < gmaxwell> I basically took part of the structure from the paper I cited, dropped the OT and replaced it with more commitments, and made it into a NI-ZKP instead of multiparty computation.  It's inefficient, but a reasonable teaching tool.  (A number of people here seem to have read it and regarded NI-ZKP as less black magic after it)
16:14 < nsh> which paper is this?
16:15 < gmaxwell> nsh: talking about http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt
16:15 < nsh> ah, ty
16:15 < gmaxwell> (and the paper it cites)
16:15 < gmaxwell> (which is a two-party active secure multiparty computation scheme)
16:16 < gmaxwell> (which happens to sound at least superficially similar to what amiller linked to)
16:17 < amiller> i guess all the 2pc protocols i know of use oblivious transfer which does require asymmetric crypto yeah and that's usually the bottleneck of them
16:17 < amiller> well
16:17 < amiller> i'm not sure of that nvm
16:19 < gmaxwell> I looked couldn't find anything. Which surprised me, but then again, I think there may be publication pressure against something that is 'inefficient' since many 'efficient' schemes have been published. I'm sure someone (even the authors of the paper I cited) had thought about what I was suggesting there; it's 'obvious'.
16:21 < gmaxwell> But I think it's pretty useful for educational purposes... esp if we want to start asking the public to trust these tools; more people need to have at least the vaguest understanding of them.
16:22 < nsh> (in my imagination, at least) interactive animated games would be a good (perhaps the most accessible) way to convey such concepts
16:22 < nsh> but i've not committed deeply enough to that imagination to try and make any yet
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16:41 < nsh> there's an interesting malleability case in your scheme gmaxwell
16:41 < nsh> --
16:41 < nsh> I send the commitments to you.
16:41 < nsh> I then compute the hash of all the commitments.
16:41 < nsh> I use the resulting super-commitment to select a random permutation of the encrypted
16:41 < nsh> gates. E.g. I use that hash to initialize a random shuffle on the gates.
16:41 < nsh> -- if you design the circuit so that certain inputs are equivalent, you can grind the supercommitment
16:42 < nsh> i don't know if that would be useful at all
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16:44 < nsh> i don't think it matters
16:45 < nsh> but it differentiates between reversible and irreversible circuits which is interesting
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16:50 < nsh> --
16:50 < nsh> The N^2 blowup could be eliminated if the gate encryption keys were
16:50 < nsh> committed with a strong hash function which was commutative for XOR, but
16:50 < nsh> this appears to require fancy crypto or interaction[1]. With this you
16:50 < nsh> don't need the N^2 adaption key commitments because you can just
16:50 < nsh> compose the encryption key commitments.
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16:50 < nsh> -- i had that thought as i was reading (linearity / commutativeity of XOR in the hash would help with efficiency)
16:51 < nsh> what's the fancy crypto alternative to ([1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/155.pdf ) ?
16:51 < nsh> general moonmath NI-ZKP stuff?
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18:26 < kanzure> gmaxwell: what is your best guess as to why there's so many (20) seeders on https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6554331 and yet so few on the library genesis (libgen) torrent collection?
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18:45 < kanzure> also: i think the problem in p2p file storage of "just ask a peer for the data that you need to fetch (and then apply a previously-stored salt if necessary?)" is similar to the lack of incentives in bitcoin to run a node storing the full blockchain (although in bitcoin there are certain incentives for storing the blockchain because of security/financial reasons)
18:47  * nsh muses
18:50 < kanzure> also, this is probably a bad idea, although i'm not sure how bad, but you could remove old transaction/block relaying in bitcoin, or make it costly, so that nodes have an incentive to keep a copy?
18:51 < kanzure> s/old/sufficiently-old (recent blocks or transactions would have to be exempt)
18:51 < nsh> incentive to keep a copy isn't incentive to make it available to others
18:51 < kanzure> certainly, but so what?
18:52 < nsh> maximising availability is probably more important than motivating retention
18:53 < kanzure> specifically you mean maximizing availability, for the purposes of new nodes getting caught up?
18:53  * nsh nods
18:56  * nsh reads "How robust are gossip-based communication protocols?" - http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~lorenzo/papers/p14-alvisi.pdf
18:56 < kanzure> i also recommend http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~asdas/research/dsn02-swim.pdf
18:57 < kanzure> or really this overview https://www.serfdom.io/docs/internals/gossip.html
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19:06 < Taek> It'd be interesting to have a culture where you pay for data
19:06 < moa> i think there government agencies for that already?
19:06 < Taek> Data that is ubiquitously available would be as cheap as bandwidth, because many parties would be able to pay for it
19:06 < Taek> *able to provide it
19:06 < nsh> every day i wake up in the reality where people pay for data. how do i wake up in the one you're from where they don't?
19:07 < Taek> are you talking about paying for bandwidth, or are you talking about paying for the actual content?
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19:08  * nsh wasn't being serious 
19:09 < Taek> o
19:12 < Taek> on an unrelated note, the sidechains paper + ama gives me the feeling that the writers are pretty firmly opposed to new currencies
19:12 < Taek> which is something I don't fully understand
19:12 < kanzure> there are many reasons to oppose bad ideas
19:13 < Taek> new currency != bad idea?
19:13 < kanzure> bad implementations are also worthy of opposition.
19:13 < Taek> I get that most of the altcoins out there are somewhere between ignorantly bad and outright malicious
19:15 < Taek> but I imagine most sidechains will be in a similar boat
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19:16 < Taek> crazy amibitous ideas like BitsharesX that seem awful, or copycats of the first sidechains hoping to piggyback off of their success
19:16 < kanzure> bitsharesx isn't awful because of its ambition
19:17 < Taek> poorly phrased: they don't seem to know what they are doing
19:17 < kanzure> well maybe its ambition, but that's hardly the first reason i would use.
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19:18 < andytoshi> Taek: have you read alts.pdf? also what would be the point of creating a new currency?
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19:18 < andytoshi> beyond market fragmentation etc
19:19 < Taek> I've read alts.pdf, and I think there are a range of good reasons to make new currencies
19:20 < Taek> if you tether an idea like decentralized storage to it's own currency, the value of the currency will rise and fall with the value of the service it enables
19:20 < Taek> kind of like a stock
19:20 < andytoshi> why not value the service directly ... using prices
19:21 < andytoshi> like every other market asset in history?
19:21  * nsh smiles
19:21 < kanzure> unfortunately nobody has figured out decentralized storage, so currency is the least of the concerns there
19:22 < nsh> that's a bit unfair
19:22 < kanzure> go on?
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19:22 < nsh> e.g. tahoe-lafs has a lot of stuff figured out
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19:23 < kanzure> oh right, sorry, i meant the one about.. erm.. reliability or proof of storage or resource or something.
19:23 < nsh> and if you have content in google's cache, it's pretty decentralized, i'd bet
19:23 < Taek> also andytoshi I don't believe that alts.pdf covers the currency part, mostly just the idea that altcoin creators are not generally competent when introducing new ideas
19:24 < andytoshi> Taek: that's correct, alts.pdf does not cover the creation of currencies
19:26 < andytoshi> tho the sidechains wp does discuss a lot of the problems with new currencies ... and i'm not sure you can cite an existing altcoin that needs to be a currency (except e.g. freicoin which is an economically very different asset from bitcoin)
19:26 < andytoshi> if there was anyone with a plausible claim that these currencies had any point, we would've addressed it
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19:28 < kanzure> Taek: part of the security of a blockchain derives from the currency, except that hashing power from other chains can beat new chains up.
19:28 < Taek> let's talk about monero then. Monero adds a clearly desirable feature that you can't get out of Bitcoin
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19:28 < Taek> How are you going to implement something like that without introducing a new currency?
19:28 < andytoshi> right. and there is no need whatsoever for them to have a separate asset for that feature
19:28 < andytoshi> with sidechaisn
19:30 < Taek> hmmm
19:30 < andytoshi> it doesn't make conceptual sense that there wolud be a separate currency to enable certain transaction types, it's just a limitation of the bitcoin tech/historical accident
19:31 < jgarzik> andytoshi, partially
19:31 < jgarzik> andytoshi, NMC should float separate from BTC
19:32 < jgarzik> andytoshi, connecting free market signalling to decentralized database operations is useful
19:32 < andytoshi> sure, that's what Taek was getting at with a "decentralized storage coin" i think
19:32 < andytoshi> but nmc doesn't need to be a currency, the tokens could directly represent domains
19:32 < jgarzik> In the context of new bitcoin features, though, I do agree
19:33 < andytoshi> i think, if you are using the word "currency" to describe your asset it is probably unnecessary
19:33 < jgarzik> andytoshi, possibly, yes, but I think there needs to be a token for each database operation type, to properly ensure the health of the DC db
19:33 < jgarzik> not each record
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19:34 < andytoshi> yeah, ok
19:34 < jgarzik> because it's really a flow of database operations + long term maintenance (storage) of db data you want to pay for.
19:34 < Taek> (I'm really struggling with this, which is good, b/c it means you're probably changing my mind about a lot of things) From 10,000 feet, I very much don't like the idea of 'one currency to rule them all'
19:35 < Taek> because as the economy grows, the currency is going to grow in value, and the people who benefit from that growth are the holders of the currency
19:35 < Taek> regardless of who actually added the value to the economy
19:35 < Taek> instead you want the value added to be going directly to the people who are adding the value
19:36 < andytoshi> Taek: this is what a market does
19:36 < jgarzik> "you want" -> projection
19:36 < andytoshi> Taek: we've gotten through all of human history without making cryptographic derivatives for everything :)
19:36 < Taek> this is true, but that doesn't mean that we've had a perfect monetary system
19:36 < moa> or cryptographic money for that matter
19:37 < Taek> example: satoshi (as far as we know) has done absolutely nothing for the benefit of Bitcoin since disappearing
19:37 < Taek> and yet he's the one who benefits the most from the growth of the ecosystem
19:37 < Taek> the market isn't going to fix that
19:38 < Taek> *adjust that
19:39 < jgarzik> Taek, Not everyone in bitcoin agrees this is problem.  Without near-100% consensus that it is a problem, then there will not be an engineering change.
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19:39 < sl01_> Taek: don't the people creating value by definition get rewarded for it?
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19:39 < jgarzik> changing economic theories midstream
19:39 < jgarzik> unwise
19:39 < jgarzik> Taek, freicoin has demurrage
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19:40 < Taek> I'm not suggesting we adjust Bitcoin in any way, and I also think demurrage is a doomed-to-fail idea
19:40 < Taek> who would store their money in a currency with demurrage?
19:40 < Taek> I sure wouldn't
19:40 < kanzure> Taek: what's wrong with someone having lots of money?
19:40 < kanzure> ah, i prefer jgarzik's response over my own. nevermind.
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19:42 < Taek> It's not that he has lots of money that bothers me, it's that he got the money wihtout people trading it to him
19:42 < kanzure> didn't they?
19:44 < Taek> they didn't. He became wealthy by hoarding an asset that had almost no value and sitting on it while it grew in value explosively
19:44 < jgarzik> Yawn.  early risk, early reward.
19:44 < jgarzik> Might as well hate the entire stock market.
19:45 < Taek> well, the stock market does seem like a pretty messed up system
19:45 < Taek> do you really think that Page & Brin added billions of dollars of value to Google?
19:46 < Taek> or was it the hoardes of highly talented employees?
19:46 < jgarzik> Anyway
19:46 < kanzure> haha if this doesn't count as "a billion dollars of value" what the hell does
19:46 < jgarzik> I want 2-way pegging without having to mod bitcoin
19:46 < jgarzik> I'm interested in sidechains, from a decentralized-app-chain perspective
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19:47 < jgarzik> to do namecoin-like things, while avoiding a new floating token
19:48 < jgarzik> simplified,
19:48 < jgarzik> swap BTC for namecoinBTC, then buy namecoin{expire,renew,create} tokens with namecoinBTC
19:48 < jgarzik> no floating NMC, but the db op tokens do float
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19:49 < jgarzik> free market sets price of db op
19:49 < kanzure> why is the op called db here?
19:50 < jgarzik> namecoin is a database
19:50 < jgarzik> a decentralized db, where you buy database operations (new DNS record, renew existing DNS record)
19:52 < kanzure> okay okay, i'm just not used to seeing "db" refer to "database" when next to a transaction script op
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19:53 < jgarzik> IMO namecoin is a better model for Ethereum than Ethereum itself.
19:54 < jgarzik> Free market pricing of each database operation inside each decentralized app
19:54 < jgarzik> but no randomly floating "inflation token"
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20:01 < zooko> Hm.
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20:07 < zooko> jgarzik: so BTC has a fixed exchange rate with namecoinBTC?
20:07 < phantomcircuit> zooko, that depends on the sidechain rules
20:07 < zooko> I'm trying to understand the point of that.
20:08 < zooko> I'm also trying to understand how to do side-chain-like things without modifying Bitcoin protocol.
20:08 < zooko> I'm familiar with TierNolan/amiller atomic swap.
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20:09 < phantomcircuit> zooko, federated peg, without that you need a new op code
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20:09 < phantomcircuit> which is a soft forking change
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20:10 < zooko> What is a "federated peg"?
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20:11 < BlueMatt> ie jsut a big multisig where the multisig is responsible for holding the locked btc for the sidechain
20:11 < zooko> Oh.
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20:12 < BlueMatt> (with the goal of moving to a full-mining sidechain when possible, ofc)
20:12 < zooko> What do you mean a "full-mining sidechain"?
20:12 < BlueMatt> one without a multisig
20:12 < BlueMatt> with the spv proofs
20:13 < zooko> E.g. that Bitcoin protocol gets upgraded to honor unlock requests with sufficient PoW from the side-chain?
20:15 < nsh> zooko: p.17 http://www.blockstream.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/sidechains.pdf
20:16 < BlueMatt> zooko: yes, idea being that you can do a multisig-held sidechain until bitcoin is upgraded to do spv validation of other chains
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20:19 < zooko> nsh, BlueMatt: I see.
20:20 < Luke-Jr> would it be crazy to use SCTP (over UDP) for future mining protocols?
20:21 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: why?
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20:23 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: seems like a nice fit
20:24 < Luke-Jr> actually, maybe not that nice
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20:31 < lechuga_> y not
20:31 < lechuga_> u could control your own congestion control algo
20:31 < lechuga_> tcp be damned
20:31 < lechuga_> which i guess may not be that nice :)
20:32 < lechuga_> but for 1MB i bet no1 would even notice
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20:34 < Luke-Jr> well, it'd be nice if share submissions were never held back because a TCP packet got lost somewhere :p
20:34 < BlueMatt> lechuga_: mining is very low bandwidth...you almost just want to do raw udp packets and duplicate everything you send
20:34 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yea, so just duplicate packets on the wire :)
20:35 < lechuga_> erasure code it and blast it
20:35 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: the difficult is fragmentation ;)
20:35 < Luke-Jr> difficulty*
20:35 < Luke-Jr> consider also, we want to encrypt submissions and sign work updates
20:35 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: huh? cant it all be like <1k?
20:35 < lechuga_> skype does nasty tricks like this
20:35 < BlueMatt> you should essentially never see frag <1k
20:35 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: you can't even guarantee 1k isn't dropped
20:36 < Luke-Jr> IPv4 only guarantees like 530 bytes
20:36 < lechuga_> i think 1k is safe assumption for mtu
20:36 < lechuga_> in modern era
20:36 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: you cant guarantee anything, but if you're link is dropping 1k...well...go fuck yourself
20:36 < Luke-Jr> :P
20:36 < BlueMatt> or...if your link is dropping 1k, then you're just gonna have a slower link
20:36 < lechuga_> at least ive tested that at scale with a udp protocol with application layer congestion control
20:36 < lechuga_> and it worked out pretty good
20:36 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: also, I'd love to some day run miners over 6LoWPAN just cuz :p
20:37 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: to get a "slower link", you need fragmentation
20:37 < lechuga_> u can also play reasonably fair wrt tcp
20:37 < Luke-Jr> (6LoWPAN drops anything over like 100 bytes)
20:38 < lechuga_> and use packet queueing delay as a secondary signal to loss
20:38 < lechuga_> and predict when tcp will lose anyway
20:39 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: if you're doing that...great...you do some naiive fragmentation crap that barely works and people using shitty links will be used to things barely working :p
20:39 < BlueMatt> (or fallback to tcp)
20:39 < Luke-Jr> heh
20:39 < Luke-Jr> fallback to TCP sounds like a good idea
20:39 < Luke-Jr> maybe just do this with TCP initially, but designed so it could handle a UDP-based protocol..
20:39 < BlueMatt> yea, do some kind of packet-based protocol where all packets are <1k and just send it over tcp by default
20:40 < lechuga_> nah go right for the grail
20:40 < Luke-Jr> :P
20:42 < Luke-Jr> good abstraction is useful anyway
20:42 < moa> openvpn does something quite close to that
20:44 < Luke-Jr> moa: reliable, unordered packets?
20:44 < Luke-Jr> not sure a VPN would want reliable
20:45 < Luke-Jr> anyhow, I should just focus on using TCP first I think <.<
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20:46 < lechuga_> yeah developing a udp protocol which will be fair and opprtunistically beat tcp is a significant effort
20:47 < moa> Luke-Jr: i think openvpn is actually tcp on top of udp ... but it 'can' do both
20:47 < Luke-Jr> <.<
20:47 < moa> bit hazy but works over really bad satellite uplinks
20:48 < moa> maybe they changed it since 2010
20:48 < lechuga_> whats satellite latency in ms
20:48 < moa> can be long as 1-5s
20:48 < lechuga_> lol
20:49 < moa> heh
20:49 < lechuga_> actually
20:49 < lechuga_> i know a guy who worked for jpl and they built their own tcp for this purpose
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20:49 < lechuga_> i think they like contracted vern paxon or someone crazy like that
20:50 < moa> Luke-Jr: fact that it is a vpn is not the point ... you set up a udp tun iface and layer tcp emulation on top
20:51 < moa> set one up in either direction i.e.
20:52 < moa> or some such trickery ... it's been a while
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20:58 < moa> stun i.e.
20:59 < lechuga_> yeah u use stun to find your external mapping
20:59 < lechuga_> then u need a coordinating backchannel to find each other to start the handshake
21:00 < moa> at that point you;re diggin into IP and IPsec like .. ;P
21:00 < lechuga_> then u can send syns to each other at 25hz and penetrate restricted cone nat
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21:03 < phantomcircuit> udp hole punching is not a science
21:03 < moa> a lot of p2p doesn't need full tcp so a reduced emulation over udp might make sense ...
21:03 < moa> horses for course
21:03 < moa> right
21:03 < phantomcircuit> so you need udp w/ stun + tcp fallback
21:03 < phantomcircuit> which is annoying
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21:04 < phantomcircuit> moa, a proper vpn is udp
21:04 < phantomcircuit> otherwise you get tcp congestion control ^ 2
21:05 < phantomcircuit> ie instead of cutting the window in half it gets cut in to a quarter
21:05 < lechuga_> or cut to the current bw estimation
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21:07 < moa> 9600 baud
21:13 < moa> P2P/IP?
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 25 00:00:28 2014