--- Log opened Sun Oct 26 00:00:29 2014
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00:35 < manaka> do you guys think that sidechains will ever become centralized
00:36 < sipa> sidechains are an idea... some specific sidechains may well be centralized
00:37 < manaka> ok, but do you see a way to centralize all blockchains to a single sidechain?
00:37 < sipa> sure, make bitcoin a frontend for paypal
00:37 < sipa> i mean: of course that is possible if people want that - but why would we want that?
00:38 < manaka> what i mean is make a sidechain a connector of all blockchains
00:39 < sipa> sidechains are just depending on independent blockchains that support looking at eachother
00:39 < sipa> your question really doesn't make sense
00:39 < sipa> what is a 'connector' ?
00:39 < manaka> something like blocknet
00:39 < manaka> they are doing a p2p cross trading
00:39 < manaka> and tokenizing it
00:40 < sipa> right :)
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09:53 < Taek> I realize that the implementation is likely to be different for each sidechain, but where do block subidies come from for miners on sidechains? Just fees?
09:53 < sipa> read the paper
09:54 < sipa> section 6.1
09:54 < Taek> >.< sorry
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15:24 < fds4345> Hows about an evolutionary algorithm as a proof of work? Choose a model of reasonable complexity, then the goal is to find a more efficient configuration (which should be easy to verify and to quantify).
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15:29 < nsh> .head https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf
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15:29 < nsh> .to andytoshi if your website down?
15:29 < yoleaux> nsh: I'll pass your message to andytoshi.
15:29 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, that command (.head) crashed.
15:30 < BlueMatt> nsh: iirc hes having problems with his canadian vps or something
15:30 < nsh> ah
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15:32 < nsh> fds4345, have you read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/alts.pdf ?
15:33 < nsh> not sure there's a canonical write-up on the theoretic issues of 'useful' PoW algorithms
15:33 < nsh> probably between several dozen stackexchange answers
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15:33 < nsh> e.g. https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/20879/why-cant-we-design-a-bitcoin-that-does-useful-work lists a few things
15:34 < nsh> but doesn't mention progress-freeness
15:35 < nsh> oh, sorry, this pertains more than alts.pdf: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
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15:38 < fds4345> just read alts.pdf, didnt seem relevant (not complete either :))
15:38 < nsh> fds4345, so looking at that SE answer and sections 4,5 of asic-faq.pdf (but it wouldn't hurt to read it all), can you imagine a way to conserve those properties while (incidentally) searching some configuration space against an efficiency objective function?
15:39 < fds4345> I have read asic-faq
15:39 < nsh> i don't think it's impossible in principle
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15:41 < nsh> but i'm not sure you could achieve any kind of useful performance that would mean you're decreasing the total entropy production compared to having the mining and searching done separately
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15:44 < fds4345> nsh: the algorithm is assumed to be brute force, and people should be encouraged to try to find inefficiencies in it just as any cryptographic algorithm is audited.
15:48 < Eliel> fds4345: hmmh... it's kind of difficult to say if what you suggest is progress free or not. That'd depend on implementation details. Also, sounds like it'd be difficult to tune the difficulty level.
15:50 < nsh> well, you can have the difficulty be adjunct
15:51 < nsh> (so you present a hash output with some amount of zeros with any valid solution)
15:51 < fds4345> Well, I suppose that it's brute force. A "perfect" evolutionary model should be "non reversible". Otherwise there's an inefficiency in the model, which is itself interesting (but potentially not reconcilable with the delicate needs of a viable currency. As an investment though...)
15:51 < nsh> actually, maybe not that easy. nm
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 27 00:00:31 2014