--- Log opened Sun Nov 02 00:00:15 2014
--- Day changed Sun Nov 02 2014
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10:53 < super3> yes?
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13:47 < nsh> any thoughts in whether blockchain technology might be (with appropriate modifications, caveats, etc.) useful as a more secure replacement for existing distributed routing information state protocols
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13:47 < nsh> (specifically BGP, which is kinda the rubber band holding the internet together)
13:49 < phantomcircuit> nsh, maybe, but there are some pretty trivial intermediary steps that nobody has yet to take
13:49 < phantomcircuit> so i cant see that happening
13:50  * nsh nods
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13:58 < phantomcircuit> nsh, although actually blockchain based ip allocation isn't crazy
13:58 < phantomcircuit> digitial ownership and meaningful ownership being one an dthe same
13:58  * nsh nods
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13:59 < nsh> i think gmaxwell mentioned that he'd previously discussed the idea of blockchain-controlled membership in distributed hash tables with cjd
14:00 < nsh> but i'm not sure of any specifics
14:01 < moa> cjdns was investigating namecoin integration at some point
14:02 < nsh> perhaps that could be a project incubated through sidechains
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14:15 < kanzure> "if you can't fit a usable routing table in a few megabytes at *most*, then you won't be able to deliver traffic, *period*."
14:15 < kanzure> "right now, the global BGP routing table fits in something like 1 MiB, and that's large enough that it causes problems for some systems"
14:15 < kanzure> "the big problem with non-hierarchical addressing is that you have to remember that intermediate routers are *very* dumb and *very* memory constrained"
14:16 < kanzure> "you'd be better off running the crypto system alongside traditional addressing"
14:17 < kanzure> (these quotes are from 2014-08-27)
14:18 < nsh> yeah, well, "better off" is currently a function of the grace and favour of a large and growing number of people with a practical ability to take away all the nice things at any point if they are sufficiently motivated
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14:19 < nsh> i'm not sure that's any way to run a civilization
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14:20 < kanzure> well, what would you actually want in the route table itself
14:21 < phantomcircuit> moa, yes and when he did that he completely broke the security model in like a day....
14:22 < nsh> kanzure, that's kinda independent of the utility of having strong security guarantees about the authority of updates
14:22 < kanzure> oh, oops, i was the one who brought up the route table stuff.
14:22 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, ahahaha
14:22 < kanzure> route tables don't verify itself or its peers
14:22 < phantomcircuit> lol
14:23 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, you validate the routing info and then load the validated routing table
14:24 < kanzure> don't peers discover their own routes in the network?
14:24 < kanzure> "there's a sysctl called "log_martians" in the net config which causes a kernel message whenever a packet comes in from an interface that it shouldn't according to the routing table, but that's pretty much it"
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14:25 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, iirc routes are only dont like that outside of the core
14:25 < phantomcircuit> there's apparently a bunch of routers that have something very close to the entire global ip space explicitly routed
14:26 < kanzure> "yeah anybody who is participating in the backbone has what amounts to a global routing table which is negotiated and shared over BGP"
14:26 < kanzure> i hate playing irc relay, people should just agree on a channel and stick to it
14:27 < kanzure> "note that misconfigured/malicious peers can and do fuck with BGP on occasion"
14:28 < kanzure> "the way that backbone routers are configured is sort of only tangentially related to how near-endpoint routers are configured"
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14:39 < nsh> "A major update to BGP would be required to remediate those issues and offer an adequate level of protection against sophisticated BGP attacks. RFC 4278, a maturity study of BGP security mechanisms, considers the marginal benefit of such schemes in this situation would be low, and not worth the transition effort. " -- https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/56069/what-security-mechanisms-are-used-in-bgp-and-why-do-they-fail
14:41 < BlueMatt> ie "The NSA looked at BGPSEC and decided that it would hurt their ability to steal everyon'e traffic at will"
14:42 < nsh> that's what i wondered too
14:43 < kanzure> how many privacy points would that net everyone in the battle against the nsa? just curious in an estimate
14:43 < BlueMatt> practically, incredibly few
14:43 < nsh> this is the major global policy problem we're facing: the rules and governance of digital communications networks are becoming the rules and governance of civilization, and the current stakeholders are starting to be seen to have interests at conflict with security, robustness and equal franchise
14:43 < BlueMatt> but, practically, any one thing nets incredibly few points against the nsa
14:44 < nsh> that's probably the kind of problem humanity should be putting a lot of effort into solving
14:44 < nsh> because if it's left to crazy people in pajamas to try and fix it, you can expect mixed results
14:45 < nsh> and the crazy people in pajamas have limited patience
14:45 < moa> what's zuckerberg got to do with it?
14:45  * nsh smiles
14:45 < GnarSith> wait. arent we the crazy people in pajamas?
14:45 < nsh> no, we're the crazy people in robes and hats
14:45 < nsh> there's a limited crossover
14:45 < GnarSith> hehe
14:47 < BlueMatt> "He received 2007 National Computer Systems Security Award by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the National Security Agency (NSA)."
14:47 < BlueMatt> lol, thats an oxymoron
14:47 < BlueMatt> "Security Award"..."NSA" do not belong in the same sentence
14:48 < BlueMatt> (thats the author of the very outdated rfc which was referenced claiming bgp doesnt need security)
14:48 < GnarSith> winner of undisclocable award for reasons of security and therefore insecurity
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14:54 < moa> so is this the problem BitPay IP protocol layer is going to solve?
14:55 < BlueMatt> lol, no
14:55 < BlueMatt> that thing is not an ip layer
14:56 < moa> the coindesk article made it sound awesome
14:56 < BlueMatt> coindesk articles make everything sound awesome
14:56 < moa> not that i bothered lookinng any further
14:56 < BlueMatt> even broken technobabble
14:56 < moa> lol
14:57 < justanotheruser> bitpay IP protocol layer??
14:57 < BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitpay/foxtrot
14:57 < moa> B2B/IP
14:57 < kanzure> i thought it was just established that it was not an ip layer -_-
14:58 < justanotheruser> I know, I wanted to know what he was referring to though
14:58 < moa> the co CEO made some noises to that effect ...
14:58 < moa> but colour me skeptical, although good on them for having a go
14:59 < BlueMatt> foxtrot scales oppositely from what you need in the neternet...
14:59 < moa> P2PSEC
14:59 < BlueMatt> so, while a potentially cool project as they progress, its not an ip replacement
15:00 < justanotheruser> without looking at the source, it seems to imply they have bitcoins network topology
15:00 < moa> he mentioned p2p networks generally
15:00 < moa> plus btc-based encryption
15:00 < kanzure> this place is such a circuit
15:00 < kanzure> circus.
15:00 < BlueMatt> my understanding: gian p2p network where you peer with whoever you want, to initiate a connection, you flood the entire network looking for the pubkey of your target, if it comes back you establish a circuit, ala networking pre-ip
15:01 < justanotheruser> oh
15:01 < BlueMatt> each node/router keeps state for each connection which is traversing it, ie....it doesnt scale
15:01 < BlueMatt> not to mention the scaling of flooding the network looking for your target pubkey
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15:03 < justanotheruser> so I only have to check 1 billion IP addresses then
15:05 < woah> BlueMatt I'm into it
15:05 < gmaxwell> Anyone else here at all familar with Frama C?
15:05 < nsh> .wik Frama C
15:05 < yoleaux> "Frama-C stands for Framework for Modular Analysis of C programs. Frama-C is a set of interoperable program analyzers for C programs. Frama-C has been developed by Commissariat à l'Énergie Atomique et aux Énergies Alternatives and Inria. Frama-C enables the analysis of C programs without executing them." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frama-C
15:05 < nsh> (by way of answering 'no' )
15:06 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: static analysis framework?
15:08 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, it's pretty useful... though often it gets lost on non-trivial functions or trying to prove things more complex than absence of arith overflow
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15:08 < BlueMatt> ew
15:08 < BlueMatt> w
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15:10 < gmaxwell> It seemed to me that frama c would actually have a fighting chance of proving this change computes the same thing: https://github.com/peterdettman/secp256k1/commit/c7b87a855e9684b8e5858e896057005709bc26c6  so if someone else around here was familar with it I was going to suggest they give it a shot.
15:11 < gmaxwell> (e.g. prove they compute the same thing by just making a function with a copy of the new and old verisons and adding assertions that the results from both are the same)
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15:15 < sipa> i believe they are, but there is no actual requirement that they are identical
15:15 < sipa> there can be multiple representations for the output that are identical
15:16 < gmaxwell> well the change shouldn't have resulted in them being non-identical, at least.
15:19 < gmaxwell> sipa: here is the paper I mentioned before about correctness proofs for a curve25519 implementation: http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~bywang/papers/ccs14.pdf
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15:24 < gmaxwell> It's interesting that it notes a older version of the software was incorrect... https://cryptojedi.org/crypto/#ed25519
15:25 < gmaxwell> I believe I'd not been aware of that previously. (uh and now wonder if there is code I'm responsible for shipped with that bug in it. :( )
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15:29 < nsh> hopefully it wouldn't have had a high impact (if the probability of being triggered was low)
15:29 < nsh> still not ideal though, i suppose
15:29 < phantomcircuit> definitions of low in testing might not match those in production
15:30  * nsh smiles
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15:38 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: heh. keegan is now wishlisting someone to do rust extractions for coq: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/18496
15:40 < andytoshi> oooh
15:41  * andytoshi wishes for another lifetime to work on that
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15:41  * nsh expresses approval
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19:07 < kefkius> Would it be at all feasible to implement merge-staking (like merge-mining) in PoS chains, or is that ridiculous?
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19:13 < nsh> kefkius, to what end?
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19:25 < kefkius> It wouldn't really achieve anything. Mostly wondering if it would be possible to have your coin age on chain A, and be able to stake on chain B
19:26 < justanotheruser> kefkius: I was thinking about this. Without having stake-stamps or whatever you want to call you DMMS confirmed by a PoW first, it is completely insecure and even with that there are security problems
19:27 < nsh> well obviously the bottom layer of turtles are floating on buffer of hot air coming from asic heatsinks
19:28 < nsh> but nothing technically stops stake, or any other measurable/calculable function of blockchain parameters from propagating from chain to subchain
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19:30 < nsh> i think the problem is that the relationship between algorithmic subsidization on the basis of such functions and economic behaviour prefiguration is unclear, and may require empirical determination
19:31 < nsh> and a means of dynamically adapting those algorithms without affecting the value or security stability of the system is technically challenging
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19:39 < gmaxwell> kefkius: sure why not, but it wouldn't be any less broken than POS in general. :)
19:41 < nsh> (broken as a replacement for proof-of-work)
19:41 < kefkius> gmaxwell: With enough effort, we could make it even more broken
19:42 < gmaxwell> "We have the technology"
19:42 < gmaxwell> but, sure, no challenge in that, just add complexity and you're almost certian to become more broken.
19:43 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I don't think PoS backed by PoW is broken in the same way PoS bootstrapping is.
19:44 < justanotheruser> If I have a PoS sidechain that requires I make a transaction confirming the PoS in a PoW parent chain then I cannot stake grind since presumably the proof for the next block would be dependent on the PoW of the parent.
19:44 < kanzure> the observation that random bits of software can be forced together in a way that might technically compile is really uninteresting both in the software world and whatever niches of that which bitcoin occupies....
19:45 < kanzure> what is the advantage of that additional complexity there?
19:45 < justanotheruser> I'm doubting this would be useful though since a PoW parent could censor PoS that they aren't getting paid for.
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19:48 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: security reduces to POW there, ultimately...
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19:51 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: yeah, the security is through PoW. The arguable advantage I have been able to think of is that that is one less chain a PoW miner has to keep track of and less chains would have to be verified meaning easier verifying of pools blocks by miners.
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19:52 < justanotheruser> s/chains would have to be verified meaning/chains to verify means/
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21:11 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: interesting that there were no useful answers given to this: https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2014/000203.html
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 03 00:00:00 2014