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joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 -!- spiftheninja_y [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:59 -!- spiftheninja_y [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:07 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@vpn4.hotsplots.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:13 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:16 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:21 -!- koshii [~0@110.78.173.17] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:42 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:51 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzykxjvoqteftwbj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:52 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-126-133.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:58 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@130.43.57.196.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:19 -!- Starduster [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:22 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:28 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 04:35 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:40 -!- koshii [~0@110.78.173.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:41 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:42 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:53 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:55 < andytoshi> webdeli: there is a git repo, but not wit hthat commit in it 04:56 < webdeli> ok. 04:56 < andytoshi> webdeli: https://github.com/apoelstra/sidechains-whitepaper 04:56 < justanotheruser> andytoshi: is that main? 04:56 < andytoshi> the "real" repo has a ton of binary pdfs and weird make targets in it 04:56 < andytoshi> and like 5 million autocommits 04:57 < andytoshi> justanotheruser: what do you mean? 04:57 < justanotheruser> andytoshi: is that the main branch 04:57 < justanotheruser> it seems you just answered that though 04:57 < justanotheruser> I was wondering why that wasn't under the blockstream github.. 04:57 < webdeli> I see. The question behind the question arises from idle curiosity about ceremony an practice between the authors that provided for a Git commit on a whitepaper. 04:58 < andytoshi> webdeli: it's just a revision no, it happens to be a git commit id but that isn't actually stated anywhere 04:59 < webdeli> My personal parallel use-case being - creating (ideally in Git / not Google docs) an open an co-authored document - an association's memorandum of incorporation - and specifically for the Bitcoin Co-Working Space @ MBTC 04:59 < webdeli> (Melbourne Bitcoin Technology Centre) 05:00 < webdeli> Roger that. 05:00 < andytoshi> webdeli: ah, you can steal the code from the sidechains wp, but you also need a couple git hooks ... one sec 05:01 < andytoshi> webdeli: post-checkout post-commit post-merge post-rewrite should all be https://gist.github.com/apoelstra/0813427350c169a7536b 05:02 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@vpn4.hotsplots.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05 < webdeli> And I take to understand my best entry point to understanding the workflow employed is here: http://mirror.unl.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/gitinfo/gitinfo.pdf yes? 05:05 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@vpn4.hotsplots.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:06 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@vpn4.hotsplots.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07 < andytoshi> it's worth skimming that -- i didn't read it too carefully 05:07 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07 < andytoshi> just copied out the githooks, added the commands to the doc to put the commit id in 05:08 < andytoshi> then forgot about it 05:09 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10 -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@vpn4.hotsplots.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:17 < webdeli> Right... Now done. So in esssence - TeX is the sourcecode for the PDF. (Yes I am using these words by analogy rather than by absolute definition). 05:17 < webdeli> I appreciate you providing the links to these repositories. 05:18 -!- koshii [~0@110.164.241.245] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:18 < sipa> i don't see how it would not be true in the absolute definition :) 05:18 < webdeli> Now let me withdraw back into the shadows to do organisational work once more.. once I catch some rest. 05:19 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:20 < webdeli> This actually started for me 10 hours ago opening up the "Enabling Blockchain Innovations with Pegged Sidechains" whitepaper with a view to delve into the detail of the idea therein. At least to the extent that I might come to understand the mechanism proposed. 05:21 < webdeli> Commentary (unsurprisingly) in the Bitcoin press has been at an overview and 'hand-wavy' then 'magic happens' kind of level. 05:21 < webdeli> Bodes understanding a little more. I hope to get it by reading. 05:22 < webdeli> So far no good - only on page one I go down this Git commit on a PDF rabbit hole. Tomorrow page 2 and beyond. 05:22 < webdeli> Thank you so much (all) for the value you are contributing to Bitcoin core and the dialogue around the evolution of the Bitcoin protocol. 05:24 < webdeli> Bitcoin is fundamentally most interesting mental and commercial pursuit I personally identify where I personally hold some reasonable of adding value in associated business / apps and software services. 05:24 < webdeli> *Rambling. Sleep time. G'night. 05:36 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:38 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@130.Red-79-150-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:39 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:39 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:44 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:45 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.173.250.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:54 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Quit: fanquake] 05:58 -!- irclouis [~irclouis@ip68-228-87-55.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59 -!- roconnor__ [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6c03.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:03 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:03 -!- chris200_ [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:07 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:24 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:29 < kanzure> haha you're telling me that blockstream believes in autocommits? that sounds unlikely :) 06:30 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:31 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.173.250.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.173.250.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:39 -!- chris200_ [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:39 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:41 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:43 -!- mkarrer__ [~mkarrer@153.Red-79-151-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44 -!- mkarrer__ [~mkarrer@153.Red-79-151-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:44 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:52 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:a593:6196:f4b4:20dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:54 -!- atgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-jiordnntiaoxbzsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:00 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 07:04 -!- atgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-jiordnntiaoxbzsh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:12 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:13 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 < andytoshi> i was the only one autocommiting ;) 07:14 < andytoshi> or was that a pun? 07:20 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- zooko [~user@74-95-195-137-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 -!- Guest89859 is now known as maaku 07:29 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 < kanzure> no, it's just that developers tend to be opinionated and against autocommits, that's all 07:29 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 < sipa> writing a paper is not development! 07:31 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:32 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-126-133.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:35 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 < tacotime> gmaxwell: i think there's a proof of stake signing scheme for darkcoin for 'instant tx' or something 07:38 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 -!- cryptokeeper [c08b7d80@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.192.139.125.128] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 < tacotime> where 'masternodes' with 1000 DRK receive a tx and sign for it, and then apparently the network decides that's the correct version of the tx and that it can't be double spent 07:40 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 07:43 -!- zooko [~user@74-95-195-137-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:44 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@vpn4.hotsplots.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46 -!- Pierre_Rochard [~Pierre@12.219.170.153] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:49 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:50 -!- hearn [~mike@77-59-61-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:51 -!- profreid [~profreid@a88-115-210-162.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:51 -!- tdlfbx [~bsm117532@wsip-98-173-237-190.no.no.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52 < tacotime> kanzure: doesn't freimarkets offer centralized ledger systems? 07:52 < kanzure> haven't looked 07:52 < tacotime> there's a whitepaper out there somewhere, and the devs jtimon and maaku are usually here 07:57 -!- hearn [~mike@77-59-61-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01 -!- hearn [~mike@77-59-61-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 -!- zooko [~user@75-144-26-73-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 -!- zooko [~user@75-144-26-73-sfba-ca.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:13 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@195.243.132.4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:19 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:22 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:4c11:1081:7122:173b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:22 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:25 -!- hearn [~mike@77-59-61-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:4c11:1081:7122:173b] has quit [Client Quit] 08:31 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:33 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:38 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:40 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51 < tacotime> oh, this is that darkcoin 'instant tx' noise: https://www.darkcoin.io/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/InstantTX.pdf 08:51 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:55 < justanotheruser> tacotime: and if a group signs conflicting tx, consensus is broken foreven :D 08:55 < justanotheruser> I mean a supermajority does 08:55 < wumpus> it sounds quite fragile 08:55 < justanotheruser> so just wait for the block where supernodes colluse (every block a new set of supernodes are selected) 08:55 < tacotime> justanotheruser: yeah i was wondering about that 08:56 < tacotime> and what the heck happens in the event that a miner decides he wants to mine a conflicting tx 08:56 < justanotheruser> tacotime: his block is invalid 08:56 < tacotime> ... 08:56 < wumpus> and vulnerable to sybil attacks? is 1000 DRK a lot? 08:56 < tacotime> wumpus: not for an exchange :) 08:56 < justanotheruser> wumpus: fairly expensive 08:57 < justanotheruser> about $2600 08:57 < wumpus> ok 08:57 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:58 < tacotime> so if the blocks can be invalidated at will, doesn't the whole system boil down to a sort of PoS? 08:58 < wumpus> yes, it is PoS 08:59 < tacotime> and it looks instantaneous too, so if an exchange gets hacked, it's game over 09:00 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05 < justanotheruser> but don't worry about the attacks on this darkcoin proposal. I was assured by a darkcoin dev that "once consensus is established, it cannot be broken" (near exact paraphrase). 09:06 -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle 09:08 < tacotime> perfect 09:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:10 * justanotheruser deletes blockchain 09:11 < dgenr8> the DRK video shows a transaction instantly getting "6 confirmations" and he apologized for it not having the check-mark icon. so they'll just get that cleaned up, and it's off to the races 09:12 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:13 * justanotheruser considers opening http://yesthiscoinisascamandwillfailbutitusesbrokensecurityassumptionsunlikebitco.in/ 09:13 < justanotheruser> that way people will know that its failure doesn't represent a bitcoin failure and aren't turned away 09:15 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:18 < tdlfbx> Hey you could set up a round robin DNS for that domain to point to all the scam coins. ;-) 09:26 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ztiwpkpkfrmfpflx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@195.243.132.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30 -!- tdlfbx [~bsm117532@wsip-98-173-237-190.no.no.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:37 < maaku> tacotime: it does 09:37 < maaku> *freimarkets does provide private ledger systems 09:39 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39 -!- MoALTz_ 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[~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 10:54 -!- Sub|afk is now known as SubCreative 10:54 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:54 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- irclouis [~irclouis@ip68-228-87-55.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- phawk [~nophawk@li578-62.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:15 -!- pi07r [~pi07r@f212009.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: >>>] 11:16 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:16 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:20 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.173.250.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.173.250.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- pi07r [~pi07r@f212009.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23 -!- atgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-cnnqbzkcspjttied] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32 < dgenr8> what if lock request conflicts with a tx already seen? do clients only lock txes sometimes? what happens if miner doesn't include a locked tx? how does one know "once the lock has reached everyone"? 11:35 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: I think they ignore conflicting tx and propogate accepted tx 11:37 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:41 < dgenr8> does lock consensus mean unanimity? what if a block is found before the next masternode cohort is chosen? 11:43 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: btw, most of this isn't in the whitepaper, I am just going by what some dev told me 11:43 < justanotheruser> (darkcoin dev) 11:43 < dgenr8> you seem to know everybody 11:44 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@130.43.57.196.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@g229085228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 11:45 -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 11:46 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 < justanotheruser> and I forgot what their "solution" to that was, but I'm pretty sure I asked. I'm pretty sure they just said their usual "if masternodes try any funny business they'll get voted out, also, we can fork if something goes wrong". 11:48 < dgenr8> if they ignore existing conflicts then they have the same problem as the "partial confirm" proposals. They are a tool of the double spender. 11:48 < dgenr8> so that implies everyone locks all the time 11:49 < justanotheruser> and you can discuss these papers on their subreddits, but I have found that 90% of the time it isn't worth the time since the responses tend to be "FUD" "FUDer" and "stop spreading this FUD, you have no idea what you're talking about you idiot. Didn't you read the paper, their solution is X you moron" 11:49 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@ppp-2-87-135-3.home.otenet.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 < justanotheruser> (that is how I "know" everybody) 11:49 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:49 < justanotheruser> a dev actually did give me some cool headed responses, though they weren't promising 11:50 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 < dgenr8> ok. well anyway, it's possible to make the 0-conf results generally better, but all this PoS stuff seems pointless and a couple seconds is not possible. nothing quantitative on time at all in the paper 11:52 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: there are ways, but I don't know any solutions other than scorched earth that don't involve invoking trust 11:53 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:53 < instagibbs> seems like they'd be better off doing GA.it-style 0-conf, maybe with signer also doing some sorta masternode-style staking of some funds that disappear if double-spends detected 11:53 < instagibbs> make the trust explicit, rather than hiding it 11:54 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 < justanotheruser> ya... you could just trust the masternodes and have "darkcoin-super-original-0-conf-spend" which would be an implementation of another thing already done in bitcoin, 2-of-2 11:55 < instagibbs> exactly my point 11:55 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: agreed. (wrt bonding. ... well, so there is an issue there that the losses from doublespending are unbounded, so bonding is a pretty weak protection against actual evil... may protect more against carelessness) 11:55 < gmaxwell> Of course ... doing that kind of protection works fine in bitcoin already, no need to pump an altcoin for it. 11:56 < gmaxwell> though they could perhaps have the doublespending bonds, since currently bitcoin script is not powerful enough to make that work. 11:56 < instagibbs> gmaxwell: You could bound the losses by making co-signing keys public... with a huge loss in privacy of course 11:56 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:57 < instagibbs> maybe not, nevermind 11:57 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: it doesn't bound the losses. yea. 11:57 < instagibbs> because they could gather txns 11:57 < instagibbs> then released all at once 11:57 < gmaxwell> you just doublespend ALL THE PEOPLE at once. 11:57 < gmaxwell> yep. 11:57 < instagibbs> derp 11:58 < gmaxwell> yea, to prevent that you need a consensus system. Yo dawg. 11:58 < instagibbs> Re-inventing blockchains, all the way down 11:58 < gmaxwell> But thats okay; really if you use all the available tools then mostly whant you need to protect against is carelessness and bonds may be adequate for that. 12:03 < instagibbs> Well people seem to be totally ok with trusting central servers; getting people on 2-of-2 arrangements would still be huge win. Not going to lose sleep over it. 12:04 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:04 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: well don't be too eager there, "people" != "altcoin pumpers" the issue there is that the altcoin pumping people are going to be excited about anything that promotes their altcoin, regardless of the security model; people who were thinking carefully about security left already (or never were involved there)... but yea sure, I guess the success of bc.i is evidence for your claim. 12:05 < instagibbs> Broad brush, etc :) 12:06 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:06 < instagibbs> I don't think the cause is lost. But it's education... which takes quite a while. 12:06 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:13 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:17 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:19 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:24 -!- luny`` is now known as luny 12:25 -!- irclouis [~irclouis@ip68-228-87-55.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:30 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: bitcoin has all the tools. defining agreement on 0-conf primacy to include a 30-second safety margin, and a relatively weak link to enforcement by miners is enough. 12:31 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: see https://github.com/dgenr8/out-there/blob/master/ds-dep-win.md 12:33 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: "The only action a node takes under this rule is to act temporarily as though it has not yet received a certain block. No consensus failure is possible" 12:33 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:34 < justanotheruser> what incentive is there to delay this miners block? If I was a miner I would start on what is most likely to be the next block right away. Consensus harm is possible. If it takes a minute for a block to "propogate" (propogate in the sense that a miner starts working on it) then 1/10 blocks will be reorged out 12:36 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 < gmaxwell> dgenr8: I don't think your proposal is logically coherent or workable. I tried before to explain how it creates vulnerabilities and doesn't achieve its goal, and if it could work we wouldn't need a blockchain at all... I've given up continuing to repeat myself however, since you continue to advance similar proposals without any sign of understanding the reaction you're getting. 12:37 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: If a small amount of hash power adopts, it becomes economical for others to follow. This is quantified in the proposal. 12:37 < helo> propagation isn't a binary event... if it takes 60 seconds to fully (say to 95% of nodes) propagate, i would guess that the average time to see a new block would be 40 seconds or so 12:38 < helo> but fast nodes with fast peers can probably see new blocks much faster than the average 12:39 < dgenr8> gmaxwell: i added a whole section with quantitative reasoning in response to your most recent remarks. what did you think of it? 12:40 < dgenr8> helo: the entire distribution of tx propagation times is used as a basis for reasoning and deriving a 30-second threshold as workable 12:43 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:44 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:44 -!- profreid [~profreid@a88-115-210-162.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: profreid] 12:46 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: you've got to consider what happens when I generate a block on top of the new block that is supposed to be delayed while everyone else is working on the old block. If one miner mines a new block and I mine a new block then my block is on the tallest chain. I can forge timestamps and all that good stuff to make it look like I accounted for the delay too. 12:46 < justanotheruser> This example demonstrates the lack of incentive to ignore a new block 12:47 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: network instantly accepts it (C = 1) timestamps don't play into it 12:48 < justanotheruser> s/If one miner mines a new block and I mine a new block then my block is on the tallest chain./If a block is mined on the old chain you're "supposed" to be working on and you generate a block on top of the delayed block, your block is in the tallest chain./ 12:48 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: think back to your choice of where to mine though 12:48 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:48 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: timestamps can be irrelevant then 12:48 < justanotheruser> I'm not sure how that fixes the problem. 12:50 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: sorry, think back to the guy who included the double-spend's choice. 12:50 < justanotheruser> there is a strong incentive to work on the tallest block unless *no-one* else is working on it. 12:51 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: no, the block reward is so big compared to any DS fees, he isn't going to risk it. 12:51 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: not sure how you prevent him from getting the block reward or what he is risking 12:52 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: this is quantified. if 100% delay his block, it costs him 25btc to a first approximation 12:52 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: sure, but what is the incentive for anyone to "delay" his block? 12:53 -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle 12:53 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: depending on assumptions, only a very small amount of hash power has to be concerned enough with the network becoming opaque to double-spends to implement this rule 12:53 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:a593:6196:f4b4:20dc] has quit [Ping timeout: 243 seconds] 12:55 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: so you propose >50% not mining a taller fork in general because it contains doublespends, or what is your mechanism preventing the hash power from going towards processing the more economical blocks? 12:55 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: per proposal, if there is just one double-spend "premium" to be claimed, the break-even number is .24% of hash power. 12:55 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@ppp-2-87-135-3.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: right, so you're incentivizing forcing reorgs 12:57 < dgenr8> no reorgs with c = 1 12:57 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@ppp-2-87-135-3.home.otenet.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 < dgenr8> a "delayer" could be implemented as a preprocessor outside of the main block accept logic, though depending on how much validation was done this would not be as efficient as doing it inside that logic 13:02 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@ppp-2-87-135-3.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:02 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:06 < dgenr8> the delayer wouldn't get used much though. what would actually happen is miners would stop including double-spends whose gap from tx1 was in the deprecated window (for ex: (30s, 2hr)). which is the goal 13:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:13 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:13 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:19 < dgenr8> i don't think i've expressed this directly enough -- there is a cascade effect. delays could also be used for things like including way too few transactions vs. what was available. 13:20 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:20 -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle 13:28 -!- cryptokeeper [c08b7d80@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.192.139.125.128] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 13:28 -!- cryptokeeper [c08b7d80@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.192.139.125.128] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 -!- hastagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47 -!- Starsoccer [~starsocce@unaffiliated/starsoccer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:48 -!- starsoccer [~starsocce@207.12.89.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:48 -!- starsoccer is now known as Guest81469 13:50 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:52 -!- cryptokeeper [c08b7d80@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.192.139.125.128] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 13:52 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:55 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:57 -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@178.62.149.67] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:02 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ztiwpkpkfrmfpflx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:05 < OP_NULL> the darkcoin masternode stuff is actually very interesting from the standpoint of incentives. the masternodes now take a more significant portion of the block reward of the miners, so things are increasingly muddy in that regard. it’ll be interesting to see how they go balancing that as they risk devaluing mining until they are completely vulnerable. 14:08 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:09 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:10 < OP_NULL> justanotheruser: there's other strange things they haven't addressed with regards to network sanity. there's a limit to the number of masternodes, but it's not clear how that's enforced in a sensible way. 14:11 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:12 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:14 -!- scoobysnacking [36a91fce@gateway/web/freenode/ip.54.169.31.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:14 < scoobysnacking> hey guys, anyone had this issue with Bitcoind before? 2014-11-09 20:21:34 ERROR: CheckProofOfWork() : nBits below minimum work 2014-11-09 20:21:34 ERROR: ReadBlockFromDisk : Errors in block header 14:14 < scoobysnacking> (Bitcoind then crashes) 14:15 < OP_NULL> scoobysnacking: #bitcoin-dev 14:15 < kanzure> or #bitcoin 14:16 < scoobysnacking> asked in both, thanks 14:18 -!- Guest81469 is now known as starsoccer 14:18 -!- starsoccer is now known as Guest54524 14:18 -!- Guest54524 is now known as starsoccer 14:19 -!- starsoccer [~starsocce@207.12.89.33] has quit [Changing host] 14:19 -!- starsoccer [~starsocce@unaffiliated/starsoccer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@33.Red-79-158-209.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@178.62.149.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:24 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41 -!- scoobysnacking [36a91fce@gateway/web/freenode/ip.54.169.31.206] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:44 -!- citizen11 [~citizen11@gateway/tor-sasl/citizen11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:56 < gmaxwell> petertodd: I wonder if we should add a citation to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis-04 when its finally published to the comment in bitcoin core that tells people to not immitate the merkle tree. 15:01 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:15 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 15:20 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:23 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:27 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:40 -!- hastagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:43 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@69.23.221.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:47 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.97.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51 -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!] 17:11 -!- Glyphnote_ [~Glyphnote@199.87.199.142] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11 -!- epoche [~Glyphnote@199.87.199.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:16 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:18 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: A miner has to believe that about 5% will delay, to rationally give up on including double-spends worth .03 BTC 17:18 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:18 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: (He does have to believe that 62% will delay a block, to decide not to build on it) 17:18 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: If 5% start to delay - regardless of the cost to themselves - rationally everyone will exclude double-spends 17:19 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: This lowers the cost of delaying to 0, since now nothing has to be delayed 17:19 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: Now, everyone is willing to delay, and it should be easy to convince 62% to do so, which then takes you straight to 100% 17:29 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:36 * nsh shakes head 17:37 -!- tobyai [~toby@113x43x131x34.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:37 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:39 -!- tobyai [~toby@113x43x131x34.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 17:44 -!- Sangheili [Elite8385@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-yfbqwfxlgoidolmp] has quit [Quit: EliteBNC - 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I don't see how incentivizing miners to do this is a realistic solution. 19:31 -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:39 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39 -!- Guest73730 [~linker@113.173.250.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:51 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 19:53 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:58 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: excluding double-spends is ridiculous 19:58 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: you realise all you're saying is "kill fungibility"? 19:59 < Luke-Jr> all of a sudden those UTXOs are no longer spendable ever 20:01 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:01 < dgenr8> Luke-Jr: the first spend can be confirmed, and it can be replaced after Tmax (say 120 minutes) 20:01 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: there is no first spend 20:03 < Luke-Jr> "first" requires ordering. which is what miners do. 20:06 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:06 -!- chris200_ [~chris2000@p54AE6FF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE65EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:17 -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:19 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:19 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-139-209.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 33.0.3/20141105223254]] 20:22 -!- penny [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:22 -!- penny is now known as Guest54360 20:22 < dgenr8> This does not assume global ordering. It shows that local ordering creates the desired results, if you include a big (relative to propagation times) safety margin 20:25 -!- koshii [~0@cm-110-171-187-119.revip7.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:25 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:33 -!- atgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:35 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:42 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-139-209.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:43 -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-patcayewmcuubskx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:53 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:53 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:55 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: delaying allows miners to incentivize other miners, at some possible risk to themselves, but without breaking bitcoin. 20:56 < dgenr8> i think it can work if the overall goal is shared widely (as with deprecating empty blocks) 20:57 < dgenr8> in the particular case of double-spend protection, it is admittedly dependent on a change to all nodes, to relay double spends 20:57 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: it does assume global ordering, because if there is any significant penalty, no miner will touch it 20:57 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: I don't recall you finding a way to sanely relay double spends yet? 20:58 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: How do you define a delay? Miners consider the block invalid for 1 minute? 20:59 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: until 1 block is mined on top of it 21:00 < Luke-Jr> lol 21:00 < Luke-Jr> that's even worse than a delay 21:00 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: ok, so I just have to mine a block on top of it... not sure what disincentive there is to do that 21:01 < Luke-Jr> now instead of 6 blocks to confirm, you have to wait 10 21:01 < justanotheruser> why would I mine on the old block if there is a new block that my fork would have to beat? 21:02 < Luke-Jr> and yes, it does in fact break bitcoin because you can no longer double spend 21:02 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: you may be the only one building on it 21:02 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: maybe, but if I do build on it then my block is valid 21:03 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:03 < dgenr8> yes, but as we discussed earlier, the incentive is aimed at the guy who risked the delay 21:04 < justanotheruser> the rest of the network is at a disadvantage, they are 99% trying to make 2 blocks in the time I am trying to make 1 block. 21:04 < dgenr8> they will win in that setup 21:04 < dgenr8> that is the crux of it though 21:04 < justanotheruser> they will win a good amount of the time 21:04 < justanotheruser> but their return per hash will be less than mine 21:05 < justanotheruser> so the smart miners will follow what the 1% is doing and mine on top of the delayed block, effectively removing the delay 21:07 < dgenr8> Luke-Jr: having your block delayed is a significant penalty, so you may think twice about touching a double-spend 21:08 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: what you're talking about isn't a delay, it's a 51% attack 21:08 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@ec2-54-173-213-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:08 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@ec2-54-173-213-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:08 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@unaffiliated/otoburb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:08 < dgenr8> Luke-Jr: No, it's a 6.9% incentivization. Do read through it if you have time. 21:10 < Luke-Jr> sorry, already wasting enough time on discussing stupid ideas 21:11 < dgenr8> Luke-Jr: thanks for discussing it 21:11 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:12 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:b8:7fa3:6508:2347] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:12 < Luke-Jr> the nice thing about your idea is that as long as the majority of miners are sane, they don't even *have* to try to 51% the idiots - it's just automatic :D 21:15 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:15 < dgenr8> Luke-Jr: i don't think anybody else is as committed to mining double-spends as you are 21:15 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: try petertodd 21:16 < Luke-Jr> anyhow, my point was that miners don't have to be committed to keeping Bitcoin usable - resistance to your proposal is the default/automatic 21:23 < dgenr8> these are folks who are worried about a few seconds of block propagation time. and my data shows they aren't interested in including double-spends anyway. 21:29 < Luke-Jr> which is all irrelevant 21:32 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ftvckdywtgknmsfh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:36 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:38 -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@146.185.142.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:39 < OP_NULL> dgenr8: "aren't interested in including double spends" is a weird phrase. cex.io's pool were rather keen on it for a certain portion of time. what are you using to distinguish a "double spend"? 21:40 < dgenr8> the green boxes here http://respends.thinlink.com are where miner included the first one seen by my node, despite higher fees 21:42 < OP_NULL> what you saw first isn't always what the miner saw first though. what you think is an unsuccessful double spend could really be a successful one. 21:43 < dgenr8> sure 21:43 < OP_NULL> is there a reason that website only has two columns for alternate transactions? 21:45 < dgenr8> alternate? 21:46 < dgenr8> tx1 includes the whole cohort that is invalidated by tx2. different inputs, and all dependent txes 21:46 < OP_NULL> you have tx1, tx2, what prevents somebody from spending an output in 50 different ways? 21:48 < dgenr8> another tx2 will get another row. so there can be duplication in the tx1's. adding the amount colums may be misleading. it doesn't seem to happen that much though. 21:49 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 21:50 < dgenr8> actually the reason for that is because the bitcoind branch its running tracks only one tx2 per coin 21:52 < OP_NULL> I toyed with the idea of pushing a unique transaction to every node in the network and seeing which one ended up in a block. 21:53 < dgenr8> cool, then repeat it a thousand times and you'd learn a lot ;) 21:54 < Luke-Jr> "not interested in double spends" does not mean the miners are willing to attack Bitcoin in order to try to prevent them 21:54 -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-114-11.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:55 < Luke-Jr> so your statistics are irrelevant 21:55 < dgenr8> satoshi was attacking bitcoin pretty hard then. he really wanted to prevent double-spends 21:55 < dgenr8> he called this a "2.0 problem" btw 21:56 < OP_NULL> part of the point is that miners are just as blind as to what constitutes a double spend as everybody else. if you could evaluate what was canon there's be no need for a block chain in the first place. 21:56 < Luke-Jr> (also, the statistics just demonstrate miner laziness more than anything) 21:57 -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-114-11.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:58 < dgenr8> OP_NULL: what i explored is how well nodes will agree on ordering after a long time relative to tx propagation. 21:59 < Luke-Jr> nodes are very good on agreeing on ordering when nobody is trying to double spend. 22:00 < Luke-Jr> and no, today's "attempts" that I've seen do not count as trying. 22:01 < dgenr8> well that 18BTC one is outside 2h anyway 22:02 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, would you like to see a zero mining power attempt 22:02 < phantomcircuit> i'll do it against myself for kicks 22:02 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 22:03 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I don't particularly care to see it in practice, but maybe dgenr8 would since he seems to think he can stop them 22:03 < phantomcircuit> i'd have to start up the log all the things server though 22:03 < phantomcircuit> which generates like 8GB/day of log files 22:03 < Luke-Jr> lol 22:04 < OP_NULL> dgenr8: I read that, but I'm not really convinved. not only because I don't think there's more than 2 degrees of separation between most nodes. 22:04 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:04 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, and that's deduplicated with compression 22:05 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:05 < phantomcircuit> it would probably be more now actually since it would get spv client connections with unique bloom filters 22:06 < dgenr8> OP_NULL: what I mean is, if two txes are transmitted 30s apart, only .09% of nodes will disagree with the majority 22:07 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:09 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:09 < OP_NULL> dgenr8: where does that number come from? 22:09 < Luke-Jr> dgenr8: a real double spend transmits the "second" spend first. 22:10 < dgenr8> OP_NULL: the bitcoinstats numbers are well modeled by a lognormal distribution. then i computed a derived distribution for the difference of two of those. 22:11 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:12 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:12 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2807:953d:2cd7:17a] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:14 < OP_NULL> dgenr8: things get stickier if you are up against somebody doing it intentionally. you can abuse pool rules and relay rules to tweak those values to your advantage. 22:14 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:14 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14 < OP_NULL> if the target is running 0.8 and most pools are running 0.9, you can pevent them from ever seeing a particular transaction by abusing the dust relay defaults in the two versions. 22:15 < dgenr8> yeah, there's not much you can do to make your tx go faster. you can make it slow though. which will make nodes see it as pretty late. 22:17 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:17 < OP_NULL> with the block slowing rule you could abuse that to cause certain pools blocks to often be orphaned. 22:18 < dgenr8> block slowing rule? 22:18 < OP_NULL> the thing you proposed. 22:19 < dgenr8> you mean the pools that like to include double-spends aged > 30s? 22:20 < OP_NULL> no, you could prevent a pool from seeing a transaction at all by abusing dust rules, and then their block would likely be orphaned as a result. 22:23 < dgenr8> you mean the dust rate-limiter? 22:23 < OP_NULL> there's a free transaction limiter. dust is rejected outright. 22:24 < dgenr8> how could that be used selectively? 22:24 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:25 < OP_NULL> different versions have different defaults, some have user altered configurations. 22:25 -!- epoche [~Glyphnote@199.87.199.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25 < dgenr8> i see. good point. justanotheruser: going to sleep on your last comment. 22:26 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:48 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 22:50 -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51 < OP_NULL> dgenr8: the more I think about it, the worse that rule becomes for the miners. there's an obvious incentive for them to subvert that rule either by private peering or alternate networks. 22:52 < OP_NULL> you can also do an easy finney attack with it too. if I’m "holding" a block and I know that peer X hasn’t seen it yet, I can send them a transaction that spends an output already spent in my held block. they won’t see any double spends because all of their peers think it’s spending an invalid output. 22:53 -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-108-94.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:56 -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-114-11.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10 -!- OX3 [~OX3@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:14 -!- artifexd_ [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vewubqzbnntlymsk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:15 -!- artifexd [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mkrqxvvwknrpnehn] has quit [Ping timeout: 275 seconds] 23:15 -!- artifexd_ is now known as artifexd 23:15 -!- goddammitwhytim [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lkmsaymwmbwdpmch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:16 -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-108-94.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:17 -!- jbenet [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-roodiypflojeygnm] has quit [Ping timeout: 275 seconds] 23:17 -!- goddammitwhytim is now known as jbenet 23:19 -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-108-94.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:34 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:38 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:39 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:49 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: kyletorpey 23:52 -!- koshii [~0@cm-110-171-187-119.revip7.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:55 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] --- Log closed Tue Nov 11 00:00:47 2014