--- Log opened Tue Nov 11 00:00:47 2014 00:06 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@c-24-131-0-5.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:12 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15 < petertodd> gmaxwell: good idea, that merkle tree looks fine to me 00:16 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055148008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:16 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:18 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:b8:7fa3:6508:2347] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 < petertodd> gmaxwell: there's a few other options too, but the IETF makes for a good reference 00:23 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:25 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:25 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:30 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:6d7e:37a1:76b6:f3bb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:32 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33 -!- koshii [~0@cm-110-171-187-119.revip7.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:40 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:45 -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@146.185.142.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:47 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:58 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:02 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:11 -!- koshii [~0@cm-110-171-187-119.revip7.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:18 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:20 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:23 -!- luny`` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:26 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:28 -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-108-94.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:28 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:31 -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-108-94.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:31 -!- koshii [~0@110.164.241.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43 -!- OX3 [~OX3@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:59 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:07 -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:11 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:17 -!- koshii [~0@110.164.241.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:19 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:19 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:19 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Client Quit] 02:20 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055148008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 02:23 -!- lclc [~lclc@opentransactions/monetas/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:25 < lclc> If I have a sidechain that provides additional tx / contract features, has no own coin, and I'd like to secure this sidechain with merged-mining, I have the problem that the only incentive to mine my sidechain is tx fees. So if not all the big pools take part there, it could easily be destroyed by a bigger pool (as happenend in past with merged mining) 02:25 < lclc> e.g. I make a sidechain with gambling, and Luke-Jr doesn't like gambling, so he will kill my sidechain with eligius 02:26 < lclc> any idea how to prevent this? 02:26 -!- kumavis is now known as Nekokamisama 02:26 -!- Nekokamisama is now known as kumavis 02:27 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:28 < justanotheruser> lclc: 1) Luke-Jr doesn't dislike gambling 2) You need most miners merged mining your sidechain for it to be secure. If only 10% of the network is mining it (and they're all honest miners), 11% of the network needs to collude to attack it 02:28 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:6d7e:37a1:76b6:f3bb] has quit [] 02:28 < petertodd> lclc: that's a fundemental flaw of sidechains; two-way pegs give the attackers incentives even if they don't care about your chain 02:29 < lclc> justanotheruser: 1) it seemed so, but ok. was just an example 02:29 < lclc> ok, so no simple solution for this yet 02:30 < petertodd> lclc: mastercoin/counterparty style embedded consensus works, subject to cost and censorship resistance tradeoffs 02:30 < justanotheruser> lclc: the benefits of helping the sidechain have to be great enough so not enough miners are incenvized to attack the network that an attack is likely. 02:31 < petertodd> lclc: (though if you go down that route, you can do *much* better than msc/xcp has done from a tech point of view) 02:31 < lclc> petertodd: interesting, thanks. Have to read up on how they do it 02:32 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32 < petertodd> lclc: if you're serious about this, send me an email and I'll give you an outline of the best-practice options available right now; basically you should use a structure similar to colored coins if you can help it 02:33 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-126-133.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 < lclc> petertodd: I will, thanks. Will read a bit more first so I can ask the right questions :) 02:34 < petertodd> lclc: ha, thanks! 02:36 -!- koshii [~0@110.164.241.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37 -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- hearn [~mike@30-111.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:01 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:09 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12 -!- spiftheninja [~spiftheni@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 03:22 -!- hearn [~mike@30-111.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22 -!- hearn [~mike@85-26.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:52 -!- hearn [~mike@85-26.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 03:56 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:07 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:432:983d:c6e6:68a2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:14 -!- Guest54360 [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:17 < NewLiberty> Is there any reason that a Side Chain could not make use of atomic swaps as well as SPV with its own Main Chain, if the side chain supports the necessary scripting? 04:17 < sipa> yes, of course 04:17 < sipa> but atomic swaps don't change the amount of currency in each chain, they just move ownership in both 04:22 < NewLiberty> Right, it has a different purpose of course. 04:23 < sipa> also, see appendix c of http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf 04:28 < NewLiberty> The presumption is that if atomic swap, or even an exchange would be faster, there may be some premium on speed over the confirmation process of SPV 04:29 < sipa> by SPV, you mean the peg mechanism? 04:30 < sipa> speed and fees 04:30 < NewLiberty> yeah, but I don't like the use of the word peg for this. Pegs always fail in the real world, so bad connotations 04:30 < NewLiberty> this by contrast ought never fail 04:32 < NewLiberty> fast coins tend to be worth more than slow, localbitcoin pricing is proof enough of that. I'm looking for any pernicious economic effects. 04:34 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35 < NewLiberty> For example, there is some economic incentive to SPV coins from the Main Chain and then exchange them at a premium to take advantage of the fast coin advantage. This could cause more Side Chain coins to be created than are useful for any popular side chain. Step 6: profit 04:38 < NewLiberty> So exchanging via atomic swap may be 1.01:1 instead of 1:1 04:38 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:51 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53 < sipa> maybe yes 04:55 < justanotheruser> petertodd: don't you think at most these tx should have their merkle root put into a tx rather than 1 tx per bitcoin tx? 05:00 < justanotheruser> with merged mining there is an attack risk substituted for a censorship risk and additional space in the main chain. With your "put the tx in an OP_RETURN tx" (which I assume what you mean by best practices), you could just put the whole merkle root in the blockchain. 05:00 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:03 < justanotheruser> And if we're just putting the hash of the tx in the blockchain rather than the full tx that opens you up to, AFAICS, trivial doublespends and conflicting tx. I suppose you would need to put the full tx in a bitcoin tx for security unless your consensus is via putting altcoin block hashes in bitcoin tx and have some selection algorithm choosing the winner. 05:06 < petertodd> justanotheruser: I wrote about such a system over a year ago in this very channel; look for "zookeyv". Problem is what constitutes "best practice" depends on how timely your consensus needs to be, and schemes that rely on publishing commitments rather than the data itself don't acheive consensus in a timely fashion. 05:07 -!- Starduster_ [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:07 < petertodd> justanotheruser: also, keep in mind when I say "publish data" that data can be made to be indistinguishable from a standard bitcoin transaction to an external observer, making censorship very difficult, if not impossible. (same ideas as behind adam back's thoughts on indistinguishable transactions) 05:08 < petertodd> NewLiberty: sidechain pegging can fail, as you can steal the coins locked up in the peg, so it's quite an appropriate word... 05:09 -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 05:10 -!- Starduster [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:12 < petertodd> justanotheruser: the basic issue is always "whats the incentives to publish data?" and "can a powerful attacker reorganize the chain?" - equally, ask yourself "why aren't hashes good enough for Bitcoin itself?" 05:12 -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:12 < justanotheruser> petertodd: I don't see how it can be made indistinguishable. A miner could check whether the tx also led to a confirmation on this altcoin using a modified altcoin client. 05:13 < petertodd> justanotheruser: you don't need global consensus 05:13 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mfpfysqhsgmpxmle] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:14 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 < petertodd> justanotheruser: equally, sometimes the global consensus can be indistinguishable - for instance zerocash has a list of revealed nonces, well that list can include nonces "revealed" for reasons other than the zerocash protocol (IIRC - been a few months since I looked into this in detail) 05:16 < justanotheruser> petertodd: You don't need consensus within the currency? 05:16 < petertodd> justanotheruser: anyway, the thing with censorship, is that you only need a small % of miners deciding to attack your sidechain to make it insecure, while with censorship you need a 50% majority to make it useless - a much, much more secure ssytem 05:16 < petertodd> justanotheruser: not in the sense of "every one has every transaction" that I think your thinking of 05:17 < justanotheruser> petertodd: but if there needs to be a way to know whether a transaction is valid doesn't there? 05:17 < petertodd> justanotheruser: mastercoin and counterparty are badly designed in this respect, but you don't have to go that route 05:17 < petertodd> justanotheruser: yes, but imagine, for example, fi "whether a transaction is there" depends on whether or not a bitcoin txout was spent 05:19 < justanotheruser> petertodd: miners can check whether that txout being spent causes a transaction "to be there"? 05:19 < petertodd> justanotheruser: only if they have the data to know what that txout actually means - that can be hidden from them 05:19 < petertodd> justanotheruser: again, look up adam back's thoughts on encrypted blockchains 05:19 < justanotheruser> okay, will do 05:20 < justanotheruser> also, how do you justify forming tx so they increase the size of utxo forever? 05:20 < petertodd> justanotheruser: you don't have to implement it that way, but even then, not my problem 05:21 < justanotheruser> petertodd: okay, but then miners for sure can tell which tx aren't formed like a regular bitcoin tx. 05:21 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:21 < justanotheruser> or are meant to be bitcoin tx 05:21 < petertodd> justanotheruser: nope! lots of ways to steganographically hide data in transactions 05:22 < petertodd> justanotheruser: anyway, like I say, even if miners are trying to censor you, and you don't take any precations, you need a greater % of miners trying to censor you to be attacked then you do % to attack you succesfully in a sidechain system 05:23 < justanotheruser> petertodd: are you then saying that the pkh should be formed so it conveys some information about the state of this altcoin? 05:24 < petertodd> justanotheruser: that's one way to do it, but really, it depends on exactly what you're trying to do; colored coins has it really simple for instance 05:25 < justanotheruser> does colored coins add to the utxo permenantly? 05:25 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-217-207.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:26 < petertodd> justanotheruser: doesn't have to; not much does 05:26 < petertodd> why are you fixated on "adding to the utxo set" anyway? 05:29 < justanotheruser> petertodd: ignoring the fact that it makes running a full node more difficult, I think putting altcoin tx information into the blockchain in a way that is unknown to miners (censorship resistant), and not adding to the utxo set permenantly is an interesting problem. 05:30 < petertodd> justanotheruser: "interesting problem"? it's been done, multiple times. (e.g. mastercoin/counterparty/etc.) 05:30 < petertodd> justanotheruser: it's a trivial problem 05:31 < justanotheruser> petertodd: afaik, neither do thta 05:31 < petertodd> justanotheruser: er, so, those aren't "unknown to miners" 05:31 < petertodd> justanotheruser: *er sorry 05:31 < petertodd> justanotheruser: but anyway, the unknown to miners criteria isn't a big deal 05:31 < justanotheruser> it is trivial to do one or the other 05:32 < petertodd> justanotheruser: I've got a colored coin library that'll meet both criteria 05:32 < justanotheruser> link? 05:32 < petertodd> justanotheruser: not public yet; paid work for a client who wants a first-to-market advantage... 05:34 < petertodd> justanotheruser: for more general stuff like I said adam back has worked on this stuff; basically you just need to do things like commit in advance to the encryption key you'll use for the next state in the protocol, which constrains how you'll publish, preventing double spends, yet means the information is unknown to miners so they can't censor it 05:34 < petertodd> justanotheruser: once you publish you can reveal the key to whomever you're trying to give some asset too. 05:35 < petertodd> justanotheruser: an even more generic mechanism - albeit a bit impractical - is to use timelock crypto 05:42 < justanotheruser> petertodd: the adam back stuff is in the wizards logs? What keywords should I grep? 05:50 < lclc> petertodd: will the library be FOSS? 05:51 < justanotheruser> is there purpose to trustless coloredcoins (if you want to call them trustless) if you have to trust the author? 05:51 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:51 < kanzure> yes there is general utility in having a global anti-replay oracle 05:55 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 < justanotheruser> I guess it doesn't have to be FOSS, but at least open source in order to not have to trust the author. 06:00 -!- Guest64179 [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:00 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@f052138048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:00 -!- Pan0ram1x [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:00 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:01 -!- Pan0ram1x is now known as Guest17458 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ZZZzzz…] 08:55 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:57 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:59 -!- btcdrak [uid52049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kvwksmporwekptwv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:07 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 < Luke-Jr> lclc: I'd suggest giving a small house edge to the miner in your particular case - although you should also seriously consider whether doing so would make miners somehow liable in anti-gambling jurisdictions :/ 09:16 < Luke-Jr> lclc: also note petertodd's idea of "best-practice" is in fact "worst possible practice" 09:17 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:17 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:21 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: his best practices optomize (are best practices for) for the altcoin, not bitcoin 09:21 < justanotheruser> in other words, the best practices for altcoins are probably harmful to bitcoin 09:21 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.109.11.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Quit: fiu] 09:24 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: even then, they're not best practices. 09:24 < Luke-Jr> real best practices for an altcoin are at the very least honest. 09:25 < justanotheruser> I don't know what you mean by that 09:25 < Luke-Jr> I mean his idea of "best practices" are inherently dishonest and not ideal for an altcoin anyway. 09:25 < justanotheruser> what is dishonest? 09:25 < Luke-Jr> forcing others to do things against their will 09:26 < heath> has there been a change in protocol in response to this: http://ifca.ai/fc14/papers/fc14_submission_82.pdf 09:26 < justanotheruser> I would disagree that altcoins care about that in general then :P 09:26 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 < Luke-Jr> heath: no, it wasn't a real problem 09:27 < heath> Luke-Jr: was their a conversation on github about this? 09:27 < heath> i'm curious how this was debunked 09:27 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: just because there's a lack of honest altcoins doesn't mean it's not a best practice :p 09:27 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: none of the exchanges implement best practices, for example 09:27 < Luke-Jr> heath: more likely on IRC 09:28 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: "best" defined by altcoiners tends to be properties that benefit them and disregard bitcoin full nodes 09:28 < hearn> a best practice, by definition, is something that is practised 09:28 < hearn> if nobody implements it then it may be a good idea, but it's not (yet) a best practice 09:29 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: only if you go by majority which is obviously scamcoiners 09:29 < Luke-Jr> hearn: fair enough 09:29 < heath> i've heard two complaints recently about bitcoin: 09:29 < heath> 1. the infrastructure is being built by volunteers, and so it is not sustainable :: mike hearn 09:29 < heath> - "you can't have a large spanning financial infrastructure which is held together by chewing gum, sticky tape, and people who work on it when they have time and they feel like it." 09:29 < heath> - dispute mediation & risk analysis services may be needed 09:29 < heath> 2. when there are no more bitcoins to mine, miners may have incentives to only mine the largest transactions ::random article on the internet i can't find 09:30 < Luke-Jr> heath: 1 is being mostly resolved; 2 is nonsense 09:30 < justanotheruser> heath: pretty much every committed committer is being paid to develop right now 09:30 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31 < hearn> heath: random article on the internet you can't find may not be the most reliable source in the world ;) 09:31 < hearn> heath: you're probably thinking of the how-will-fees-work-post-inflation stuff 09:31 < justanotheruser> wladmir is paid by the bitcoin foundation and everyone else either has stake in or is being paid by blockstream iirc 09:31 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32 < justanotheruser> heath: 2 is probably referring to ,,(bc,wiki tragedy commons) 09:32 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: I think Diapolo is currently left out 09:32 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: no offense to him, but is he a critical dev? I know he has a ton of commits, but iirc, he only works on the GUI. 09:33 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: if the GUI is considered critical :p 09:33 < hearn> foundation employs three developers right now: wladimir, gavin and cory 09:34 < hearn> blockstream now employs a few more, sipa at least seems to be doing full bitcoin stuff right now, though they have other projects too i guess 09:34 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: I'm not sure if it is especially after libbitcoinconsensus is done. 09:34 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:35 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 < sipa> justanotheruser: i don't see how the GUI being critical has anything to do with that? 09:37 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-126-133.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@53-109.bbned.dsl.internl.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 < justanotheruser> sipa: There are many clients with GUIs already (including SPV clients and btcd). While GUIs may be critical, the -Qt GUI development stopping wouldn't be a problem. 09:37 < justanotheruser> s/stopping/slowing 09:37 < sipa> i don't consider the Qt GUI particularly relevant, whether libconsensus is there or not 09:39 < justanotheruser> well the original discussion was about the QT GUI. The GUI may be critical, but his development may not be critical enough to require pay since there are many GUIs that are being developed. 09:39 < hearn> how to fund end user wallets is still an open question 09:39 < justanotheruser> these GUIs can't have bitcoin consensus just plugged in until the library is done. 09:39 < sipa> i don't see why a GUI wallet needs consensus code at all 09:40 < tacotime> yeah, node-wallet-gui is generally antiquated 09:40 < tacotime> we're trying to steer away from it at monero 09:40 < sipa> i hope everyone is 09:41 < justanotheruser> sipa: well it is nice to not have to run two programs especially if you're a new user. 09:41 < sipa> it is to not have to run a full node especially if you're a new user 09:41 < sipa> *nice 09:41 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:42 < sipa> justanotheruser: i'm talking about a situation where you either run a full node in the background if you need one, or connect to other nodes if you don't (SPV) 09:42 < sipa> in either case, the wallet can be an entirely separate codebase from the consensus code 09:42 < tacotime> it's harder with monero because there's no easy way to make a utxo set due to ring signatures, but we're working on software development models where the user can run a pseudo-daemon that is easy to set up, and just pulls blocks and stores outputs rather than acts as a full node. 09:42 < justanotheruser> true. Either way, there are a myriad of GUIs that can run in front of bitcoind. 09:44 < lclc> Luke-Jr: interesting idea (paying small house edge to miners), thanks! 09:45 < Luke-Jr> sipa: I consider the Qt GUI somewhat important (though not critical) since all the other wallet GUIs suck :P 09:46 < sipa> imho, all wallet guis suck, including qt :) 09:46 < Luke-Jr> even after it's split 09:46 < Luke-Jr> pfft, I like it :P 09:46 -!- mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46 < Luke-Jr> otoh, I'm also patching it so I like it <.< 09:46 < sipa> ok, please don't stop using it then :) 09:46 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: would you like electrum if it properly represented bitcoin? 09:47 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: probably not, it'd still be ugly 09:47 < hearn> hah 09:47 < hearn> it's getting a lot easier to make pretty wallet frontends these days 09:47 < hearn> i'm sure there will be plenty more in future 09:47 < hearn> a wallet to suit every man's personal taste (also women's) 09:48 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: if it implemented HD wallets correctly, it might get close enough to be an easy 15 minute fork to clean up though XD 09:48 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 < Luke-Jr> hearn: yeah, hopefully at some point there will be an easy to use SPV library 09:48 -!- mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 < Luke-Jr> that wallets can just link to and throw their own behaviour/GUI on top of 09:48 < hearn> ouch :) 09:48 < Luke-Jr> ? 09:49 < sipa> lol 09:49 < hearn> that's pretty much what bitcoinj already is. you can make a wallet gui with it in about 30 minutes 09:49 < Luke-Jr> oh 09:49 < Luke-Jr> I don't even consider Java when I think of things :P 09:49 < hearn> you can write them in lots of languages, so that's ok 09:49 < hearn> python, ruby, javascript, a lisp, functional languages .... 09:49 < Luke-Jr> hearn: without a Java runtime? 09:49 < justanotheruser> hearn: can't bitcoinj also be used to make a full node? 09:49 < hearn> nope, you need the jvm. not sure why that'd be an issue though. it's just a big runtime library, like qt 09:50 < hearn> it can be bundled with apps quite easily 09:50 < Luke-Jr> exactly, that's why I don't use GTK or Ruby software either :P 09:50 < hearn> justanotheruser: it doesn't listen on the network so no 09:50 * Luke-Jr ponders if BitcoinJ would build with GCJ 09:50 < hearn> GCJ is pretty old. you can use it with a tool called avian, that builds a single native binary (it's actually a small jvm that has the java compiled into the elf) 09:51 < hearn> gcj does not eliminate the need for a runtime, of course 09:51 < Luke-Jr> GCJ elimiates JIT stuff 09:51 < Luke-Jr> I think 09:52 < hearn> yeah. though the end result is not necessarily better. 09:52 < hearn> you just don't like JITCs on principle? 09:52 < Luke-Jr> pretty much 09:53 < Luke-Jr> even if you managed to get memory use reasonable and CPU time eliminated, it'd still be a pain to debug stuff 09:53 < Luke-Jr> (part of using Gentoo is so I can build everything with debug-friendly CFLAGS) 09:53 < hearn> i guess it depends what you define as reasonable, but memory usage and startup time aren't a big deal these days, unless you're running on a 486 with 16mb of ram or something :) 09:53 < Luke-Jr> I suppose GDB extensions could be made to fix that too, but meh 09:54 < hearn> anything jvm based is a LOT easier to debug than anything C based though. you should try it some time. the debuggers can navigate the entire object graph easily, it's a lot more robust than gdb 09:55 < hearn> indeed that's one of the advantages ... you get good debuggers. most platforms or interpreted environments don't have that. also better heap profilers, cpu profilers, etc. 09:55 < Luke-Jr> hm 09:56 < Luke-Jr> same CLI interface? ;) 09:57 < hearn> there is, actually 09:57 < hearn> it's called jdb 09:57 < hearn> though i never use it. it's easier to visualise what's happening when you have a gui debugger and can see the code, jump around, explore it etc 09:58 < Luke-Jr> once upon a time I used insight, but RedHat seems to have abandoned it. it was nice to be able to use CLI while having visualisations 10:09 -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@12.185.191.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:22 -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@12.185.191.194] has quit [Quit: Buh bye!] 10:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:24 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:25 -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@h-67-101-120-202.phnd.az.megapath.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:25 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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14:54 -!- OX3 [~OX3@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:57 -!- gandalf [835ebaa0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.94.186.160] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:58 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- spiftheninja [~minermast@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 < gandalf> are there any storj like projects built with multisginatures transactions on bitcoin? 15:01 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.108.153.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:07 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:10 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11 -!- null_radix 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ZZZzzz…] 15:35 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:41 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:42 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:42 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:43 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@se3x.mullvad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.108.153.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:58 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 16:00 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:03 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@53-109.bbned.dsl.internl.net] has quit [] 16:12 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-228-125.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:28 -!- cjmedia [~hashtag@69.23.221.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:28 -!- maaku_ is now known as maaku 16:33 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:40 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:41 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:44 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@de2x.mullvad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:47 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:49 -!- c0rw1n_ [~c0rw1n@184.112-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:50 < tromp> interesting whitepaper by Charles Hoskinson at http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2m0j5l/why_was_my_post_removed/ 16:51 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@108.114-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:01 -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-phmvcjbhdevhjyvz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:02 < pigeons> suprise, he named it after himself 17:03 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@f052168033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:03 -!- wallet42 is now known as Guest10768 17:03 -!- Guest10768 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 17:03 -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 17:07 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:08 < gmaxwell> tromp: I'm very confused about that. It in the past he's tried pressuring me into endorsing varrious asset sales he was involved in, and responded quite rudely when I questioned the ethics of his behavior, citing some of the points this paper makes. 17:09 < gmaxwell> I suppose the plan is to cash out a huge amount from the ethereum presale and then position himself to get hired as an expert by regulators? 17:10 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:18 < rusty> gmaxwell: That's a novel theory at least :) 17:20 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:29 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:d4fb:8cdb:7117:b804] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:30 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:31 < dgenr8> justanotheruser: OP_NULL: thank you. i can see i have to give up saying a proper disincentive is possible without a soft-fork. 17:33 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@255pc208.sshunet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:39 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:a07d:96c2:76bc:60a0] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:39 -!- lchill [~lchill@nyc-333.nycbit.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:42 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:45 -!- OX3__ [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:48 < tacotime> gmaxwell: that's the hoskinson way i would guess. bitshares --> ethereum --> regulation ??? 17:48 < tacotime> and i figure he's already totally cashed out of ethereum 17:49 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-228-125.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:49 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:49 < tacotime> he did most of the budget for marketing and dev collection before the fundraiser, so i figure the goal was to push a lot in to pump and then make some money if the fundraiser was successful, which is why he's off the project now. 17:53 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@224.Red-81-36-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:55 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@76.Red-88-23-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:56 < tacotime> the whole document is terribly ironic given the history of the ethereum ipo. 17:57 < tacotime> the document is here as the ethereum subreddit appears to have removed it (lol) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xG1hkPbk0uuavjPc_gt_eWxEUbWM1SlsxNmhGdRIUtg/edit?usp=sharing 17:58 < gmaxwell> It's just very weird. 17:59 < gmaxwell> I wonder if it actually was written by him, and isn't instead a really clever attack. 18:00 -!- penny [~linker@113.173.246.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 -!- penny is now known as Guest71572 18:01 -!- bit2017 [~linker@113.173.246.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04 -!- bbrittain [~bbrittain@172.245.212.12] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 18:08 -!- bit2017 [~linker@113.173.246.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:10 < user7779078> hoskinson is bad news, always has been always will be. i hear he got kicked out of bitshares for some proper sketchy stuff. that's all i'll say 18:11 -!- Guest71572 [~linker@113.173.246.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:14 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:17 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 18:18 < super3> its kind of interesting though, both bitshares and ethereum have been quite successful though 18:18 < phantomcircuit> super3, at collecting money 18:19 < phantomcircuit> important to make the distinction 18:19 < super3> yes 18:19 < phantomcircuit> i expect them both to get in huge amounts of trouble 18:21 < super3> i worked at bitshares for a little while 18:25 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: aren't they just selling their product? They aren't selling shares in their company. 18:25 < super3> ethereum will be just fine 18:25 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, they're not though 18:25 < super3> they are very distributed, and have tons of resources and legal to protect them 18:26 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:26 < phantomcircuit> they're selling something which only has value if they make it valuable; but more so have promised to do a bunch of things to make them valuable which a naive person would expect they can do, which they almost certainly cannot do 18:27 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: ok, so there problem is false advertising, not running an IPO. 18:27 < phantomcircuit> and then they did a bunch of legal shenanigans which will look suppper incriminating when they finally do get charged with something 18:28 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, what they're doing looks, acts, and quacks like and ipo 18:28 < woah> who? 18:28 < phantomcircuit> if the sec charges them they're going to have a very very hard time refuting the allegation 18:28 -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@104.236.5.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:29 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, it's arguably fraud, the only distinction is whether they believed they could do it or not 18:29 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: what is fraud? them misrepresenting their cryptocurrency? 18:29 < phantomcircuit> their problem is that they were expressing supreme confidence that they can do it 18:29 < OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: there's more than that too. there's a lot of claims in their original promotion that it's just selling fuel, not a currency, and so forth. then they have an official blog right next to it with phrases like "ethereum exchanges" and "the price of ethereum". 18:29 < phantomcircuit> but certainly have internal emails which are less confident 18:29 < phantomcircuit> the distinction could be enough for a fraud suit 18:30 < woah> i gave them btc 18:30 < justanotheruser> woah: I'm sorry 18:30 < woah> i don't mind if it doesn't work out 18:30 < woah> the only thing that would make me mad is if they didnt spend the money on open source software development 18:30 < phantomcircuit> woah, sure, but im sure there are plenty of people who gave them btc and expect they will build what they said they would 18:31 < phantomcircuit> it would literally only take one person to hold them to it 18:32 < woah> idunno man, are you familiar with tech startups? 18:32 < justanotheruser> so are you saying this will be *the* shitshow of altcoins? 18:33 -!- koshii [~0@110.164.241.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:33 < justanotheruser> vitalek gets arrested, bitcoin community divided on how they feel about it, thousands of bitcoins lost, lots of I told you so's, don't trust this altcoin, nooooo this altcoin is different. 18:33 < phantomcircuit> woah, sure and any startup which did what they did would endup in jail 18:33 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@184.169.3.8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:33 < phantomcircuit> general solicitation 18:34 < woah> what did they do? 18:34 < phantomcircuit> unaccredited investors 18:34 < woah> oh i see 18:34 < phantomcircuit> both serious sec violations 18:34 < woah> aren't they changing those laws? 18:34 < phantomcircuit> woah, not in a way that etherium would be compliant 18:34 < OP_NULL> doesn't matter if the law changes after the fact anyway. 18:34 < user7779078> and the SEC has stalled those for month 18:34 < user7779078> months* 18:34 < phantomcircuit> general solicitation will be allowed through registered broker/dealers 18:35 < phantomcircuit> investor restrictions will be relaxed within limits through registered broker/dealers 18:35 < woah> so this is about accreditation? 18:35 < justanotheruser> poor vitalek then 18:35 < phantomcircuit> notice this all requires you use a registered broker/dealer 18:35 < woah> so, any coin ipo then? 18:35 < phantomcircuit> woah, accredited investor basically means someone with enough money that the sec isn't going to protect them from themself 18:36 < phantomcircuit> woah, if you build the software AND THEN sell the coins 18:36 < OP_NULL> justanotheruser: you could say that if he tripped and accidentally made a crowd funding website, not if it was done intentionally in another country to skirt around the law. 18:36 < phantomcircuit> you might be ok 18:36 < woah> no startups say that when getting investment 18:36 < phantomcircuit> (notice the might, that is super important here...0 18:36 < woah> seems to work out ok sometimes 18:37 < woah> anyway not trying to argue, we'll see 18:38 -!- cjmedia [~hashtag@69.23.221.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:38 < woah> i, personally, have no great love for accreditation laws 18:38 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"] 18:39 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: So what if microsoft had a presale of xboxlive points? 18:39 < justanotheruser> (before the xbox was made)) 18:39 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, closed loop presale 18:40 < phantomcircuit> rules are clear 18:40 < phantomcircuit> not convertible, daily sale limits, etc etc 18:40 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: not convertible? 18:41 < OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: what part of Ethereum were you saying is impossible? 18:41 -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, microsoft wont buy your points back 18:41 < phantomcircuit> they will sell you services for the points 18:41 < phantomcircuit> but will not give you cash 18:42 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: will ethereum buy my dollars back? 18:43 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, ethereum doesn't provide a service in return for ethers 18:43 < phantomcircuit> http://fincen.gov/news_room/nr/html/20111102.html 18:43 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, but actually yeah if i was microsoft i would not be preselling xboxlive points 18:44 < phantomcircuit> regardless ethereum didn't follow the closed loop prepaid access requirements either 18:44 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:44 < phantomcircuit> specifically the limit of 10k/day/person 18:45 < phantomcircuit> and kyc requirements 18:45 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, as you can see they could have done a bunch of stuff that would have potentially gave them an arguement that what they did wasn't x but was y 18:45 < phantomcircuit> except they have also violated all the rules for doing y 18:45 < OP_NULL> they actually avoided even collecting email addresses, which was a weird choice. 18:46 < gmaxwell> might be forced to return the funds... 18:46 < phantomcircuit> phantomcircuit: what part of Ethereum were you saying is impossible? 18:46 < phantomcircuit> getting the incentives correct to make a distributed consensus for computationally intense transactions correct is likely impossible without snarks and that is moon maths 18:47 < phantomcircuit> (even then it is likely beyond their abilities) 18:47 < phantomcircuit> OP_NULL, the meaningful question is whether the level of confidence they put out to the world matches the level of confidence they had internally 18:47 < phantomcircuit> i very seriously doubt they match 18:49 < phantomcircuit> anyways standard 18:49 < phantomcircuit> im not a lawyer, im not your lawyer, blah blah 18:49 < gmaxwell> I wouldn't know if I should me more worried that there was an information asymmetry there, or more concerned that there might not be. 18:49 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, with asymmetry it's fraud, without it's just being stupid 18:51 < phantomcircuit> the magic of common law systems in which intent matters 18:52 -!- zooko [~user@63.229.238.215] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:53 -!- cjmedia [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:55 -!- koshii [~0@180.183.148.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:57 < OP_NULL> gmaxwell: "refunds" in the same way that another crowd funded thing (buttercoin, I think) did it probably. they sent all the outputs they received back to the "from" address, naturally losing lots of people's money in the first place. 18:58 -!- cjmedia [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:59 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-228-125.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I don't understand how they intend to prove the two are related. 21:28 < phantomcircuit> OP_NULL, surely you mean address as sha256(pubkey(k)) 21:29 < OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: er, yeah in both cases I was talking about the private key. so the Bitcoin private key is sha256(k), ethereum one is sha256(k+0x01). 21:29 -!- spiftheninja [~minermast@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 21:32 < phantomcircuit> OP_NULL, er doesn't that mean someone who sent them btc can reclaim it? or are they send a copy of k 21:32 -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@38.69.39.2] has quit [Quit: Feel...so...sleepy...ZZZzzz…] 21:34 < OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: no, the client made the bitcoin address, the buyer sent money to the bitcoin address, and then spent those outputs again to the ethereum presale address. there's no outputs left in the midway bitcoin address. 21:34 < phantomcircuit> OP_NULL, oh 21:36 < phantomcircuit> uh 21:36 < phantomcircuit> they cant correlate them unless you tell them k 21:37 < OP_NULL> yeah. that's the problem. you can sign each address with the other, but that seems terribly messy. 21:39 -!- machinery [~textual@187.216.136.85] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39 < OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: https://github.com/ethereum/pyethsaletool/blob/master/pyethsaletool.py#L124 21:44 < phantomcircuit> sha3 21:44 < phantomcircuit> wat 21:44 < phantomcircuit> lol @ using unnecessarily bleeding edge crypto 21:44 < OP_NULL> that was when they had SHA3 based proof of work (better than crusty old Bitcoin's SHA256). 21:45 < phantomcircuit> huh 21:46 < phantomcircuit> assuming sha3 isn't broken 21:46 < phantomcircuit> there is no way for them to correlate pubkey(sha3(seed)) with pubkey(sha3(seed+1)) 21:46 < phantomcircuit> unless you give them seedd 21:47 < OP_NULL> pub1 can sign pub2 and vice versa, but that's very ugly to put in your genesis block. I really don't think they thought that one through very well. 21:50 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50 -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54 < OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: actually that can't be right either. the network will have no knowledge of the ethereum address at all. 21:56 -!- bit2017 [~linker@113.173.246.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:10 -!- koshii [~0@110.77.234.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:16 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:29db:75b6:887e:5950] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:24 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:25 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 22:26 -!- koshii [~0@110.77.234.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:29 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:30 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:29db:75b6:887e:5950] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:47 -!- spiftheninja [~minermast@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:49 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:50 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:51 < Taek> sha3 is bleeding edge crypto? 22:53 < OP_NULL> I don't think it's even finalized yet. 22:53 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:54 < OP_NULL> there's a joke there about bleeding edge and sponge functions, but I couldn't make it work. 22:55 < Taek> "The standardization process is in progress as of November 2014" 22:56 < BlueMatt> so....very bleeding edge 23:02 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ozgnzvyryylayaqg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:13 < gmaxwell> yea, they've changed the spec a bit a couple times too. Though mostly changed it back now. 23:14 -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:29 < Taek> I guess I'm surprised because sha3 has been available in the go standard library for well over a year. I wouldn't have expected non-finalized crypto to be in standard libraries. Perhaps that was naive. 23:44 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:55 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:58 < BlueMatt> over a year is also very bleeding edge crypto.... 23:58 -!- koshii [~0@cm-110-171-187-119.revip7.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Wed Nov 12 00:00:48 2014