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00:09 < gwillen> gmaxwell: sounds actually vaguely interesting........ not $700 of interesting
00:12 < fluffypony> what is up with these conference attendee fees
00:13 < fluffypony> I was going to go to Money 20/20 when we were in Vegas
00:13 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that's funny
00:13 < fluffypony> but the fees were insane
00:13 < phantomcircuit> i went to that in 2011 i think
00:13 < phantomcircuit> it was all
00:13 < phantomcircuit> MOBILE PAYMENTS!!!
00:13 < phantomcircuit> and charlie shrem hecking some guy from citi bank
00:13 < fluffypony> lol
00:14 < phantomcircuit> it was also not $700
00:14 < fluffypony> yeah it was like $2000
00:14 < fluffypony> well this Future of Money conference just looks like a shilling platform for Stellar
00:14 < fluffypony> so there's that
00:14 < phantomcircuit> lol no way i would have paid that
00:14 < phantomcircuit> it was like $110 or something
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00:14 < fluffypony> http://money2020.com/register
00:15 < fluffypony> "The fee for general admission to Money20/20 is $2,950. We do not offer any exhibit hall-only or partial attendance rates."
00:18 < phantomcircuit> yeah it was $240
00:19 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, i remember seeing that and thinking
00:19 < phantomcircuit> "who the fuck pays that"
00:19 < phantomcircuit> but apparently it was packed
00:19 < fluffypony> lol
00:19 < phantomcircuit> soooo they must have given away a ton of free tickets
00:20 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you think they would let me in free if you insisted that i was your assistant and was 1000% necessary
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06:11 < andytoshi> usually speakers can bring a guest, surely he can write #bitcoin-wizards?
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06:43 < kanzure> huh that's very interesting. i was emailing zisk for a few months, had no idea he was that focused on altcoins.
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07:00 < gmaxwell> In any case, if there is anyone listed there that any of you want to dispatch me to talk to; feel free to request.
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07:05 < stonecoldpat> the summit doesnt look that bad, at least there is a cocktail party afterwards (y)
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07:30 < gmaxwell> ohh... someone on libpbc mailing list talking about implementing non-interactive forward security for openpgp.
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09:19 < pigeons> i went to money2020 last year courtesy of a company quite similar to stellar and any talks about bitcoin typed things seemed to be atteded by lots of compliance officers complaining about all the "loopholes" and banks saying you coudnt scale it enough for their needs
09:19 < pigeons> not many interesting technical talks at all, more like a place to meet traditional financial service company contacts
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09:20 < pigeons> everyone loves m-pesa though, cause there seems to be some good "control" over it
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11:39 < gmaxwell> "They're hacking the ram on registers, in ten years drones are going to be shooting lasers to steal your identity."
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12:34 < jgarzik> ram on registers, that makes no sense
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12:35 < jgarzik> registers are more fundamental than ram
12:35 < jgarzik> but anyway, cute quote ;p
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12:42 < instagibbs> jgarzik: registers at shops, not registers on CPUs :P
12:43 < sipa> ha
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12:50 < super3> hello
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14:38 < bramm> Hey everybody
14:39 < bramm> I have questions about this, if anybody can help me: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193281.msg2224949#msg2224949
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14:39 < bramm> Hey web deli
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14:43 < andytoshi> hi bramm, probably a few peoople can help you ... i adapted that post for the sidechains wp, iirc it was pretty hard to read (hence my writing out the protocol in full in the whitepaper)
14:44 < bramm> andytoshi, I have some really dumb questions about it
14:45 < andytoshi> bramm: i can help, i'm eating tho so will be slow
14:45 < bramm> Like, what does it mean to pay from a transaction? Isn't a transaction a thing that goes through or not? And won't the result of the transaction be money going from A to B or vice versa?
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14:47 < andytoshi> ah, right, that was the kinda thing that made me go "huh?" i believe "TX1 pays from TX2" means one of TX1's inputs is one of TX2's outputs
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14:51 < bramm> So what you're calling O1 in the whitepaper is a special coin
14:51 < andytoshi> yeah
14:51 < andytoshi> (where "coin" means "unspent output", which is not really standard lingo outside of here and -dev)
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14:53 < bramm> I'm not sure what you mean by that subtlety
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14:54 < bramm> In any case, it appears to be that there are two things this needs beyond the spend ability of coins being based on sets keys to sign them. It needs to be able to use a pre-image as one of the 'signatures', and it needs to be able to use it being a certain time as one of the 'signatures'.
14:54 < bramm> How does this 'lock time' thing work?
14:55 < andytoshi> that's right ... bitcoin has a full script system to support both hash preimages and ECDSA keys (see https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf for a high level overview and also what i mean by "unspent outputs")
14:55 < andytoshi> the locktime thing is weird in that it's outside of script ...
14:56 < andytoshi> ... it's a field on the transaction itself which declares how long the blockchain has to be before it can be included
14:56 < andytoshi> so you can create transactions that aren't valid yet, but definitely will be in the future
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14:57 < bramm> So it's by generation number or block number or however people refer to that in bit coin?
14:57 < andytoshi> typically as "undo" transactions in case of a stalled protocol (where successful protocol completion spends one of the locked tx's inputs, invalidating it forever), or as deposits
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14:57 < sipa> bramm: it's a block height or unix timestamp
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14:57 < sipa> the reason (presumably) for not making it part of the scripting logic itself, is because transactions shouldn't become invalid once they are valid - that can lead to fungibility problems
14:57 < bramm> sipa, Thanks, 'block height' is the term I was looking for
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14:58 < sipa> right, i guess that's bitcoin specific terminology; depth is how many blocks a transaction has on top, height is how far from the genesis block it is
14:58 < bramm> I don't know what you mean 'on top'
14:59 < NewLiberty> subsequent = on top
14:59 < sipa> genesis <------N blocks----> block with your transaction <----- M blocks----> the current active best chain tip
14:59 < sipa> N is the height, M is the depth
14:59 < bramm> Ah, I see
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14:59 < bramm> This is mixing analogies in a horrible way
15:00 < andytoshi> :)
15:00 < bramm> But I'll use consistent terminology
15:00 < NewLiberty> It is easy to think about for a child playing with blocks, harder for programmers
15:00 < sipa> you have to see the blockchain as a stack, i guess, growing from low to high
15:00 < bramm> Oh, so 'depth' means 'how buried it is'
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15:00 < sipa> bingo
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15:05 < cbeams> andytoshi: your bitcoin-faq is a pleasure to read. thank you.
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15:07 < bramm> Oh, so 'unspent outputs' basically means 'coins'
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15:07 < bramm> andytoshi, Isn't it really a directed acyclic graph instead of a tree?
15:09 < sipa> bramm: sorry, what is a DAG instead of a tree (missing some context here)?
15:09 < andytoshi> bramm: yup, oops, did i say "tree" without even a footnote or something?
15:09 < andytoshi> "DAG" is too technical for that faq, but i should have mentioned it..
15:09 < bramm> sipa, Oh sorry, from andytoshi's bit coin FAQ, he describes there being a tree of transactions
15:10 < bramm> andytoshi, Yeah there's no footnote about it being a DAG
15:10 < bramm> What happens when an output is partially spent?
15:11 < midnightmagic> bramm: it depends on how the transaction is formed.
15:11 < midnightmagic> bramm: If you have 5 btc input, and output 2.5 btc, the rest can be collected as fees by the miner
15:11 < sipa> bramm: there is no such thing as partial spending
15:11 < sipa> a coin is created once, and spent entirely once
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15:12 < bramm> Ah, gotcha
15:12 < sipa> which is why bitcoin transaction have the concept of 'change'; a new output that goes back to an address of the spender
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15:12 < bramm> So if you send something to a public key, you aren't sending to an account, you're making a new coin which just happens to use that public key
15:12 < sipa> for privacy reasons, it should be a fresh address, and made to look similar to the other outputs
15:12 < midnightmagic> sipa: you might call a partial spend an input which isn't satisfied by the output + fees collected by miners.. but I think what I did might be the only instance of that happening
15:12 < roasbeef> a transaction destroys input coins and creates new ones
15:13 < andytoshi> lol "chains (actually trees)" i'll add another parens "(actually directed acyclic graphs)"
15:13 < sipa> right: bitcoin transactions 'melt' coins and produce new ones from it, with potentially different amounts, and different owners
15:13 < sipa> only the amount created cannot exceed the amount destroyed
15:13 < bramm> How do people find out about their new coins?
15:14 < sipa> wallets that watch the blockchain/p2p net
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15:18 < bramm> So do wallets ask for any new outputs for their own keys?
15:18 < bramm> Does that go for both directions, both spending and receiving?
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15:19 < midnightmagic> bramm: the code itself only verifies(ied?) that the outputs are not > total input amounts. It is possible to destroy bitcoins if the spender's output amounts are less than input amounts *and* the miner doesn't pay himself the overage as fees in the coinbase. I did this, for example, in block 124724 by underpaying myself by (the fees of the transaction + 0.00000001) which means the fees and that one satoshi are destroyed
15:19 < sipa> every full node sees every transaction, so if the wallet is connected to a full node, there is no problem
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15:19 < sipa> bramm: for lighter node, see BIP 37
15:19 < sipa> it uses a bloom-filter based approach
15:19 < AdrianG> what are the odds of the bitcoin foundation (or some other corp) finally hiring full time test engineers to work on the bitcoin core?
15:19 < sipa> AdrianG: #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev
15:23 < bramm> There's a fair amount of transactional overhead in support of (partial) anonymity
15:25 < bramm> An unfortunate disadvantage to payments going to keys rather than accounts is that if I post my account info I can't just re-key it later, I have to update my pub key information
15:25 < sipa> right, which is why many people believe that it shouldn't be called 'an address', but rather an 'invoice id' or something
15:25 < sipa> address implies persistence, which is bad for privacy
15:26 < sipa> schemes like BIP32 or the payment protocol or stealth transactions add some infrastructure to not reuse keys
15:26 < sipa> without complicating things for the user
15:34 < lechuga_> bramm: planning a project? :)
15:34 < bramm> lechuga_, Obviously I'm working on something, but I'm not saying what right now
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15:35 < lechuga_> nod
15:36 < lechuga_> awesome that u are
15:36 < bramm> There are a number of features involving multiple keys which are nice to have which are also horrible for privacy
15:37 < bramm> I have a feeling if I came in here asking these dumb questions under an assumed name people would be being a lot less patient with me
15:37 < lechuga_> not an entirely incorrect instinct
15:37 < lechuga_> creator of bittorrent gets a pass
15:37 < sipa> bramm: you may be right :)
15:39 < bramm> It's nice that there's this channel for this sort of discussion though. I found it by accident when someone on twitter mentioned it tangentially in response to something I said
15:39 < andytoshi> bramm: please don't try it ;)
15:41 < sipa> tbh, much of the previous discussion belongs in #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev
15:41 < andytoshi> fwiw while some of your questions would probably be redirected to #bitcoin, the fact that you react to explanations and update your understanding makes patience worthwhile
15:42 < andytoshi> if you were just arguing, i expectt no amount celebrity status would help you
15:43 < bramm> Can lock times have a maximum in addition to a minimum?
15:43 < sipa> no, only a minimum
15:43 < sipa> 23:57:58 < sipa> the reason (presumably) for not making it part of the scripting logic itself, is because transactions shouldn't become invalid once they are valid - that can lead to  fungibility problems
15:44 < andytoshi> bramm: no, this would be dangerous because if a reorg happened which bumped a transaction out of a block, that tx could become forever invalidated
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15:44 < bramm> andytoshi, I appreciate that people are being patient with me. And yeah, I could take some of these questions to #bitcoin, or preface everything with 'how about X?' rather than asking questions first, but since people aren't getting mad at me I'm keeping discussion all in the same channel and going in and out of new proposals, trying to not say anything completely asinine by asking questions first
15:44 < andytoshi> right now transactions can't be forever invalidated, even in a reorg, except by deliberate action by its spender
15:45 < bramm> What is this transaction 'validation' thing?
15:45 < andytoshi> bramm: it's cool, i think we'd all like to be more patient but it gets abused easily by people who just want to argue or grind axes
15:45 < andytoshi> bramm: presumably you don't want to wreck your reputation, hence more patience than somebody with no reputation whatsoever
15:45 < gavinandresen> … if you’re thinking of using a DHT to implement a proof of stake system then you’ll see how quick we get annoyed….
15:46 < sipa> using rainbow tables
15:46 < lechuga_> lol
15:46 < andytoshi> bramm: a transaction is either valid or not ... it is valid if it is well-formed, the signatures validate, etc, and also if all of its inputs are unspent outputs
15:47 < sipa> < gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thing— I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT.
15:47 < andytoshi> bramm: so you can invalidate a transaction by spending one of its inputs ... but you have to do this deliberately by creating a conflicting tx and exploiting a reorg to get it into the blockchain
15:47 < bramm> gavinandresen, If any of you would like to ask me questions about DHTs I'd be happy to answer. The sort of thing you just made a joke about makes no sense to me, which is probably the point.
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15:48 < sipa> bramm: you have no idea how many people have suggested that bitcoin should use DHTs :)
15:48 < andytoshi> bramm: the joke is, there was a long period when people would come here saying "why not replace the blockchain with a DHT?" without any concept of what a blockchain does or what a DHT does
15:48 < bramm> DHTs actually work a lot better than I expected. We've got the BitTorrent one working very robustly *for peer finding*
15:49 < sipa> right, there would be no problem using it for peer finding in bitcoin either
15:49 < bramm> andytoshi, Yeah that isn't even a properly formed question. 'Why not replace an apple with a quaternion?'
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15:49 < sipa> or even for doing fetching of historic blocks
15:49 < sipa> but for anything that has DoS risk or consensus risk...
15:50 < bramm> fetching historic blocks wouldn't be a good use of DHTs either
15:51 < phantomcircuit> sipa, bestest quote ever
15:51 < phantomcircuit> sipa, it's relatively easy to censor a dht
15:52 < sipa> bramm: right, sure
15:52 < bramm> phantomcircuit, It's a lot harder than you think
15:52 < bramm> phantomcircuit, Although a lot of it has to do with what you mean by 'censor'
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15:52 < sipa> it's just that initial sync isn't very vulnerable
15:52 < phantomcircuit> bramm, it's relatively easy to censor a dht if you've got a giant botnet
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15:52 < sipa> at worst, it goes slow or not at all - but that won't split the network or cause any loss of money
15:53 < phantomcircuit> afaict the only reason the bittorrent dht survives is because nobody with the ability to launch a massive sybil attack wants to
15:53 < bramm> phantomcircuit, If your botnet has many more IP addresses than the DHT you can pull it off, but for the BitTorrent DHT that's a really huge botnet
15:53 < sipa> how many nodes does it have?
15:53 < bramm> I think somewhere around 30 million
15:53 < sipa> wow
15:54 < bramm> phantomcircuit, There are similar attacks on bit coin with occupying peer slots, there are countermeasures for those as well but for the most part it seems that nobody wants to do the attacks
15:55 < phantomcircuit> bramm, iirc you can abuse connection timeout issues to rapidly cycle node ids
15:55 < phantomcircuit> you probably know more about it than me though :P
15:55 < bramm> phantomcircuit, We tied them to IP address in the BitTorrent DHT
15:55 < phantomcircuit> ah ok then
15:55 < phantomcircuit> yeah rapidly cycling node ids was an issue in gnutella
15:56 < bramm> There were attacks going on before that, but they mostly seemed to be collecting info and weren't super sophisticated
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15:58 < bramm> I think a very sophisticated attacker could really mess things up with a botnet of around 100,000 IPs. That would be a very sophisticated attack though, and that isn't a terribly small botnet either.
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15:59 < sipa> we have had bitcoin mining botnets of that size...
15:59 < phantomcircuit> bramm, if you just need unique ips 100k is tiny
15:59 < sipa> (a loong time ago)
15:59 < midnightmagic> DHT has been endlessly suggested as a replacement for the *seeding* mechanism, which used to be IRC /whois discovery, now DNS seeders. Or they would suggest using a DHT for block storage. Or suggest a DHT for virtually every other aspect of the p2p protocol. Mostly for peer discovery because they erroneously presume properties about a DHT which aren't valid in bitcoin.
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15:59 < phantomcircuit> last year someone broke into ~3m routers
15:59 < phantomcircuit> and proceeded to basically scan the entire internet using them
16:00 < bramm> phantomcircuit, That was a very sophisticated attacker
16:00 < phantomcircuit> bramm, it really wasnt
16:01 < bramm> phantomcircuit, You might be giving a bit much credit to unsophisticated attackers :-)
16:01 < phantomcircuit> it was just someone who was bored and not afraid of jail
16:01 < midnightmagic> The joke has grown out of the uncountable repetition of DHT suggestion, and eventually we started teasing each other by suggesting dht for everything.
16:02 < phantomcircuit> afaict they just abused a published exploit in tp link routers that basically was just default snmp permissions being set wrong
16:02 < bramm> A fair amount of why the internet as a whole keeps working is that people who are capable of building and running botnets tend to be disinterested in it
16:02 < phantomcircuit> the scanning the internet bit was maybe sophisticated
16:02 < phantomcircuit> the breaking in? not so much
16:03 < midnightmagic> i don't recall anybody seriously suggesting a dht even just for block propagation
16:03 < bramm> It might make sense to use a DHT-like structure for bit coin peers selecting who they talk to, to keep latencies down
16:04 < sipa> optimizing for latency makes sense, but isn't a 100% win either
16:04 < midnightmagic> bramm: that would likely fail the connectivity benefits of a randomized peer selection
16:04 < sipa> if you have a strong tendency of the network to connect to peers with low latency, you may get clustering, which may make separating the network easier
16:05 < bramm> midnightmagic, It can do better than random actually, but also requires a fair number of connections
16:06 < phantomcircuit> really what we need is a better than random peer selection algorithm and then to make wallet transaction broadcasts more selective in who they talk with
16:06 < bramm> phantomcircuit, The vast majority of script kiddies are literally incapable of writing a line of code. It's true though that for something like DDOSing BitTorrent or Bitcoin it's plausible that someone might have an actual business model behind it, at which point getting the resources together to do such attacks would be easy
16:06 < midnightmagic> bramm: The benefit of a strong, unpredictable connectivity graph are more important than latency
16:06 < sipa> well, latency matters for scaling
16:06 < phantomcircuit> bramm, uh ok maybe your definition of sophisticated is different then mine
16:07 < sipa> yeah, i don't think anyone here was too worried about script kiddies
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16:08 < bramm> Well if we're actually on the subject of peer selection in bit coin, it's probably more analogous to peer selection in BitTorrent, which we also do using IPs. Basically for every pair of nodes we hash together the IPs of the endpoints to determine a 'score' for that connection, and you accept a new incoming connection if it has a higher score than the lowest one you currently have
16:09 < bramm> I just turned off spelling 'correction', sorry about that.
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16:12 < midnightmagic> initial peer discovery was more the issue, as people really had a problem with the IRC channel on lfnet that we used to use, and then had a problem with the centralized DNS seeders we use now. Once we have good connectivity, peer discovery is easier because the network chats about peers all by itself. The joke was that the initial seeds are all equivalently centralized.
16:12 < phantomcircuit> bramm, peer selection for the p2p protocol is actually more similar to relay selection in tor
16:13 < phantomcircuit> which they haven't gotten right either :/
16:24 < bramm> I suppose peer selection it bit coin has two separate goals: anonymity and connectivity. Unfortunately these are in direct conflict :-P
16:25 < sipa> if you're not running a wallet, there is little privacy to lose or gain
16:25 < sipa> as a miner perhaps you don't want to be attackable, and being unknown helps
16:25 < sipa> also, there is connectivity and latency
16:26 < phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i was thinking there should be guard nodes which are long lived that receive wallet transaction broadcasts
16:26 < sipa> which are also in conflict with eachother
16:26 < phantomcircuit> and another group of nodes which are cycled on staggered schedules
16:26 < sipa> latency matters, because it correlates directly with block propagation speed
16:28 < bramm> For latency purposes it makes sense to keep a certain number of slots for lowest ping time peers and the rest for random
16:28 < bramm> And when you're sending stuff out first send to a random peer and then to your lowest latency peers
16:29 < phantomcircuit> bramm, you basically never want to send wallet txs to low latency peers actually
16:30 < phantomcircuit> not without significant forethought
16:30 < midnightmagic> i thought block chain consensus is still convergent up to absurd maximums and out past the moon
16:30 < phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, convergent yes, but with stupid high latency links you might end up with lots of tiny reorgs
16:30 < midnightmagic> meh
16:31 < bramm> So is there anything other than signatures, locktime, and preimages which a coin can be contingent on?
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16:33 < dgenr8> bramm: the coin's script can define intricate requirements for spending it
16:33 < Eliel_> it's possible to require the spending transaction to provide data that hashes to a specific hash.
16:33 < lechuga_> they're more contingent on script execution result than a signature. there is no requirement for there to be an actual ecdsa signature to claim an output
16:34 < lechuga_> unless specified by the output's script
16:34 < Eliel_> but yes, it's scriptable so, a lot of things are possible
16:34 < midnightmagic> who was it who appeared to do some actual calculations for blockchain convergence..  amiller I think? or andytoshi?
16:34 < dgenr8> bramm: have you looked at the bitcoin "payment channel" work?
16:34 < bramm> dgenr8, no, got a link?
16:34 < dgenr8> bramm: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=244656.0
16:34 < sipa> midnightmagic: convergence isn't enough; if there's a 40% forking rate, you're giving a 40% advantage to a collusion attacker
16:34 < bramm> Presumably the sidechains stuff adds all kinds of new possible contingencies
16:35 < amiller> midnightmagic, i never computed anything
16:35 < lechuga_> ever?
16:35 < sipa> 42.
16:35 < lechuga_> lol
16:36 < sipa> amiller did come with the auto-adjusting block rate, to basically aim for (iirc) 50% forking rate
16:36 < midnightmagic> amiller: was it not you who at one point determined convergence area from speed-of-light from surface of the earth up to some radius past the moon?
16:36 < bramm> What is this 'forking rate'?
16:36 < amiller> rate of stale blocks
16:36 < sipa> bramm: how many mined blocks don't end up in the active best chain
16:37 < sipa> because the finder of the following block hasn't seen the previous one yet
16:38 < bramm> My best guess about forking rate is that it's about 5 seconds for things to get distributed and about 10 minutes for things to happen so the fork rate should be around 5 / 600 or just under 1%
16:38 < sipa> yup
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16:39 < sipa> as long as the ratio is large between them, that rule holds pretty well
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16:39 < bramm> I did some math once to figure out the 'optimal' average length of time between blocks and got the diameter of the network times e, with things getting really bad below that because of fork rate and not much worse above it, so that would imply that to make transactions go through as quickly as possible the average time between blocks should be around 30 seconds
16:39 < sipa> if it's smaller you need to take the actual interblock interval distribution into account
16:39 < sipa> but as i said: just convergence isn't enough
16:40 < sipa> because it assumes no attackers
16:40 < bramm> I think 10 minutes between blocks is a bit excessive
16:40 < sipa> maybe it could have been 1-2 minutes
16:40 < bramm> 2 minutes is already quite conservative
16:41 < phantomcircuit> except that would give larger miners an advantage
16:41 < sipa> but a collusion attacker (one which knows he has a majority of the hash rate or close to it) only mines on top of blocks he produces himself
16:41 < bramm> Not that 10 minutes is particularly problematic
16:41 < sipa> and therefore doesn't suffer from the forking rate that is the result of the distance/propagation delay between miners
16:41 < bramm> Right, large miners can keep their own forks and force a reorg with some reliability
16:41 < sipa> right now i think there is like 1-2%?
16:42 < bramm> The lack of credit for partials is a bit of a problem here
16:42 < sipa> that pretty much means that with 1 minute blocks and everything else equal, we'd likely have 10% forks, which may already be significant
16:43 < sipa> credit for partials?
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16:46 < andytoshi> midnightmagic: i didn't do those calculations either
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16:48 < midnightmagic> :-/ was it just an eyeballing/estimate based on 10 minutes of speed-of-light from the surface of the earth then?
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16:50 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell stop making yourself useful and stand in as my offloaded memory
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16:52 < midnightmagic> ..  could've sworn someone said they worked it out. it was near the time amiller was looking for a research project but perhaps that was just a proximal event
16:52 < bramm> sipa, If partials were baked into the protocol then a miner couldn't use their own forks because they'd lose due to not having partials
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16:52 < sipa> what are partials?
16:52 < bramm> or some variant thereof, there are a few different ways it could be set up with different tradeoffs
16:52 < bramm> A partial is something you get when you were trying to mine which doesn't make a new block but gets you a mining reward
16:53 < sipa> ah, right
16:53 < bramm> And also reinforces the validity of whatever you were mining off of
16:53 < sipa> p2pool shares, bacially
16:53 < dgenr8> bramm: see asic-faq question 5
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16:53 < bramm> dgenr8, Do you mean proofs of stake or something else?
16:54 < amiller> "giving credit for partials" is basically my current best idea for how to make nonoutsourceable puzzles with integrated p2pool so you don't need a pool
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16:54 < dgenr8> no credit for partials = a "progress-free" PoW
16:54 < amiller> not really
16:54 < bramm> amiller, I'm not sure what you mean by 'nonoutsourceable' but I think I agree with you
16:55 < amiller> bramm: see http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf
16:55 < bramm> Okay, that goes on my list of stuff to read
16:56 < bramm> This list is rather long, my goal for today was to get through atomic transactions, which I mostly have a handle on and need to read a little more closely later
16:57 < bramm> I sometimes get pulled away by a meatspace DOS attack. It typically starts with DADDY I'M HUNGRY
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16:59 < nsh> and then your child summons a million tiny zombies?
17:00 < nsh> because that is probably not considered normal development behaviour before adolescence at least
17:00 < nsh> oh, my bad, you didn't actually say DDoS
17:00  * nsh returns to cave
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17:02 < andytoshi> midnightmagic: my guess is maaku
17:02 < andytoshi> it's also possible that gmaxwell or i did it, i'm sure i remember talking about it
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17:55 < super3> amiller: you around?
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18:01 < bramm> This 'nonoutsourceable' concept is interesting. It's trying to make it so that any outsourcing requires a lot of trust. The opposite side is to reduce the incentive for outsourceing
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18:12 < instagibbs_> phantomcircuit: shorter block times, provided the rise in stale rates is low, actually could end up helping smaller pools due to decreased variance
18:16 < instagibbs_> trying to get the details published but here are slides from a talk by Dave Hudson. Check out slides 63+: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nVGCU6MDdLad8yOAmNWDbCUqXerq5Ss1B5J7AcLmZ1w/edit#slide=id.p13
18:17 < instagibbs_> 66 particularly
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18:22 < phantomcircuit> instagibbs_, that's a pretty large conditional
18:23 < instagibbs_> *shrug* mining connections I'm guessing have greatly decreased latency since the olden days. Something to think about at least. There will always be a tradeoff.
18:23 < phantomcircuit> and the effect is actually very small
18:27 < instagibbs_> it's the marginal benefits between large/small pools that's in question. Squeezing the benefits down to a much smaller fraction of total hashing power could have benefits. I'll bug the author again for the writeup.
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18:29 < bramm> What are the main practical incentives for mining pools?
18:30 < phantomcircuit> bramm, reduced variability in reward
18:30 < phantomcircuit> mining by yourself is unlikely to ever return a reward until you approach significant mining size
18:30 < instagibbs_> that, and with "hosted mining" you don't actually have to run anything
18:31 < instagibbs_> or run a full node...
18:31 < instagibbs_> but casting those aside, what phantomcircuit said
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18:36 < amiller> super3, hi
18:37 < super3> how have you been?
18:38 < amiller> bramm, yeah so 'nonoutsourceable' raises the distrust *against* pooling, having p2pool shares "integrated" into the official rules reduces the incentive *for* pooling...
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18:38 < amiller> the story for anti-hosted-mining is a lot sketchier :/
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18:39 < amiller> busting up pools without also busting up hosted mining seems like a net negative, pools seem lesser of two evils
18:39 < amiller> super3, good! thanks, what you up to?
18:39 < super3> seeing how many hard drives it takes to get to the moon
18:40 < bramm> What do you mean by 'hosted mining', and what's the problem with it?
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18:40 < phantomcircuit> bramm, you pay me money, i buy hw and runt he hw for you
18:41 < amiller> hosted mining is roughly when someone pays a large corporation to run some mining rig in a data center somewhere
18:41 < phantomcircuit> effectively i control which transaction your money pays to mine
18:41 < amiller> due to economies of scale, orgs like this can offer better deals the more consolidated they are
18:41 < bramm> I don't see how hosted mining is a problem, or avoidable. Practically everything is hosted services these days.
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18:41 < amiller> hosted mining is a consolidation of power
18:42 < super3> i mean my main thing about nonoutsourceable is that it would be impossible to integrate into bitcoin
18:42 < bramm> Oh, yeah, economies of scale. Probably the best bet for fixing that is to use resources people already have sitting around not being very well utilized
18:42 < amiller> someone could go blackmail the administrator of that organization
18:42 < bramm> Like memory. Cuckoo might help.
18:42 < phantomcircuit> amiller, otoh individuals who are bad at calculating costs might not realize what the economies of scale really are
18:42 < amiller> bramm so just like for pooling, there are two sides to a solution, a) create a barrier/disincentive by sowing the seeds of 'distrust', and b) remove the incentive
18:42 < phantomcircuit> (this has been an issue selling people contracts recently)
18:42 < amiller> cuckoo removes the incentive by reducing the benefits of consolidation
18:42 < amiller> (maybe!)
18:43 < amiller> nonoutsourceable puzzle can also in some fantasy world or something create enough distrust that people wouldn't be as happy with hosted mining providers
18:43 < phantomcircuit> amiller, kind of doubt it
18:43 < phantomcircuit> virtually nobody asks for proof of anything
18:44 < amiller> phantomcircuit, yeah, well, you and apparently everyone else, i haven't had an easy time getting any traction for this
18:44 < phantomcircuit> nearly everybody just calculates expected returns and compares with actual return
18:44 < amiller> the pessimistic view is that everyone is already totally trusting of big organizations
18:44 < amiller> phantomcircuit, yes okay, so, there is an implicit assumption there about how things *already* work, and i propose to change that.
18:44 < amiller> right now, there is no super jackpot
18:44 < instagibbs_> I think a lot of possible hobbyist miners don't do it because you have to lay down $2K+ to even pray for even
18:44 < amiller> you get the 25 btc every 10 minutes, that's the only lotto game there is
18:45 < rusty> amiller: or they are happy with the exposure being limited to the time it takes them to xfer out their profits?
18:45 < super3> not because of technical reasons, but existing miners will just reject it
18:45 < amiller> suppose you got 20 btc every 10 minutes most of the time, but *sometimes* you win a 10000 btc jackpot
18:46 < instagibbs_> amiller you have a dumping ground for lotto-style mining thoughts? or are they just rattling around
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18:46 < rusty> amiller: ah, so you're trying to use that to change the trust dynamics.  Interesting idea...
18:47 < amiller> instagibbs, yeah, sorry, your buffer here is the dumping ground ;/ i have a forum post here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305781.0 but it's kind of sketchy
18:47 < phantomcircuit> amiller, oh right
18:47 < phantomcircuit> yeah that might change things
18:47 < amiller> basically for this to work i need to assume some kind of unusual decision theory things and even if i'm right i don't know yet how to do the science and give some kind of evidence for it
18:51 < instagibbs_> im interested because I'm quite doubtful of long-term PoW if people are actually mining at cost
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18:53 < amiller> if the economics of this are anything like state lottos, then people will be mining at less -than-cost
18:54 < instagibbs_> *assuming you mean -EV*
18:54 < amiller> yes
18:54 < bramm> When are rewards going to drop by half again?
18:54 < instagibbs_> I read that post a long time ago
18:54 < instagibbs_> 2016ish
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18:56 < bramm> I wish it was sooner. It will be interesting to see what happens on the next drop
18:57 < kanzure> block 420000
18:57 < kanzure> best to measure time by number of blocks rather than 2016
18:58 < bramm> What block number is it on now?
18:58 < bramm> I wonder how many miners are going to wonder why their revenues suddenly dropped by half
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18:59 < kanzure> current blockheight is approximately 332650 depending on who you are
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18:59 < kanzure> or rather, depending on which nodes you know
18:59 < kanzure> (because 332651 is out there)
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19:16 < bramm> So that's early 2016 probably
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19:18 < phantomcircuit> amiller, its not enough of a lottery for that really
19:19 < amiller> not now it isn't :/
19:19 < bramm> I have a question about the atomic transactions protocol
19:20 < amiller> bramm, the tiernolan one?
19:20 < bramm> amiller, yes that one
19:20 < amiller> i know that one, i want to help!
19:20 < bramm> Why have the counterparty sign a return transaction? Why not just make it so that the coin can be unlocked with a combination of A's signature and a timelock of 24 hours?
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19:26 < amiller> you can't make a "coin" (an unspent transaction output) unlockable
19:27 < amiller> that limitation is just sort of a quirk of bitcoin script, there's a proposed opcode OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY that would let you do that
19:28 < bramm> Ah, that's what I suspected
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19:28 < amiller> s/unlockable/unlockable-after-some-time
19:31 < bramm> So transactions can be time-locked but coins can't?
19:31 < bramm> I hope I'm not irritating everybody by saying 'coin' instead of 'unspent output'. It's just shorter.
19:32 < lechuga_> 'utxo'
19:33 < bramm> Okay I can use that. Is utxo short for something?
19:33 < lechuga_> unspent transaction output
19:33 < tromp_> unspent transaction output
19:33 < tromp_> just as short as coin!
19:34 < lechuga_> doubt any1 really annoyed by 'coin' tho
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19:37 < lechuga_> re: OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, see also: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki
19:37 < amiller> i like calling those coins too, but it confuses people who don't know it :/ "utxo" either you know it or it's obviously incomprehensible
19:38 < amiller> bramm, exactly, a transaction can be timelocked but a utxo can't
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19:56 < bramm> tromp_, I have a question about cuckoo
19:56 < op_null> bramm: the problem with "coin" really is that it gives people the idea that they are somehow 1BTC units. at least with utxo you can't have people forming preconceived notions about their function.
19:57 < tromp_> yes, bramm?
19:58 < bramm> tromp_, Does it need something as strong as siphash? Could it use something weaker like, say, a single round of AES?
19:58 < bramm> Or is a single round of AES about the same as siphash?
19:58 < tromp_> i tried with reduced rounds, even down to siphash11, and couldn't see any effect on cycle length distribution
19:58 < bramm> What is siphash11?
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19:59 < tromp_> normal siphash is siphash 24, 2 rounds of one kind and 4 rounds of another kind
20:01 < tromp_> for extra mixing power, some applications use siphash-4-8
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20:02 < tromp_> so cuckoo can use a weaker siphash than siphash-2-4, but i'd feel better about siphash-1-2 than a single round of AES
20:03 < bramm> Are siphash-1-2 and AES about the same amount of CPU? Why 1-2 specifically?
20:03 < tromp_> just sticking with the ratio siphash-n-2n
20:03 < tromp_> doing half the work of siphash-2-4
20:04 < tromp_> i don't know offhand how 1round AES compares with siphash-1-2
20:06 < tromp_> but siphsah is designed for hash tables, which is really how it's used in cuckoo cycle
20:06 < bramm> I'd be curious to hear DJB's thoughts on reduced round siphash, in particular for that use
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20:07 < tromp_> i asked him by email
20:08 < tromp_> it bounced:(
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20:08 < bramm> huh, what was the reason for the bounce?
20:09 < tromp_> <djb@cr.yp.to>:
20:09 < tromp_> I have not received confirmation that this message is not bulk mail.
20:09 < tromp_> I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
20:09 < bramm> Huh, I've successfully corresponded with him before. Will try later.
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20:11 < tromp_> AES is unnecessarily wide
20:12 < tromp_> i know someone who was trying to exploit the limited width of siphash to compute 4 of them in parallel with AVX
20:13 < tromp_> that might speed up cuckoo a bit
20:13 < bramm> cuckoo should be mostly waiting for memory
20:14 < bramm> Hence the wanting to speed up the hashing. If it was mostly waiting for CPU then there wouldn't be much point in speeding up the CPU
20:14 < tromp_> yes, but once a thread is waiting for memory, you need another thread to compute the next siphash
20:14 < tromp_> the memory subsystem can handle many pending memory accesses
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20:15 < tromp_> for cuckoo, hyperthreading beyond a factor of 2 (like on some sparc cpus) could be very beneficial
20:17 < bramm> Presumably custom hardware should be able to do that so the more that COTS hardware can do it the better
20:19 < tromp_> i'd love to try cuckoo on an intel xeon phi
20:19 < tromp_> my former academic institution has one, but it invariably crashes on cuckoo:(
20:21 < tromp_> gotta run; talk to you later...
20:21 < bramm> laters
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22:59 < gmaxwell> potenitally fun thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=881304.0
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23:17 < op_null> some new snake oil, too. kryptohash, our proof of work is more secure than bitcoins because our hash is 320 bit not 256 bit! maybe that'll be the new race. multi megabit PoW hashes.
23:18 < phantomcircuit> op_null, you're gonna ruin my plan!
23:21 < gmaxwell> and then does it use sha256 for everything except the pow, including a preprocessing step before the pow?
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23:25 < op_null> probably, they always seem to
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23:30 < op_null> "Also puzzled you didn't go for 512bit hash or maybe even higher?  Lock out current gen ASIC, and some low end graphics adapters."
23:35 < Luke-Jr> lol
23:35 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: apparently Maxcoin uses Keccak for even the base58check
23:37 < Luke-Jr> Region code: Kryptohash protocol includes a Region code field. Each Region consists in it's own separate blockchain, RPC/P2P port numbers and hopefully a different Market price. As of December 2014, only Region #0 exists. Other regions might be released in the future.     <-- lolwut
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23:38 < op_null> I can't work out why anybody thinkgs that a good idea.
23:40 < gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well if you can reduce the number of hash functions you have that might be good.
23:41 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but X11-X15!
23:41 < paveljanik> op_null: more blockchains, more pump&dump, more money... as usual
23:41 < op_null> super secure hashing!
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23:57 < sl01> has anyone brainstormed out the effects of bitcoin mining being "perfect money laundering" and if that means eventually mining will always be done at a "huge" loss because... money laundering?
23:57 < phantomcircuit> sl01, it's not because you have to purchase power
23:58 < sl01> good pt, i guess that nullifies the whole thing?
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23:59 < sl01> does hosted mining require kyc?
23:59 < sl01> or mining contracts