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[~vmatekole@g229161046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:19 < gmaxwell> amiller: https://www.stellar.org/blog/safety_liveness_and_fault_tolerance_consensus_choice/ 04:20 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:22 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180205156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:25 -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f12ee97.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 -!- Quanttek_ [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:31c8:451b:23d9:1566] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:38 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f12ee97.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:45 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:55 -!- atgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:55 < op_null> gmaxwell: oh that's hilarious 04:57 < gmaxwell> yea, if only someone had pointed this stuff out to them in 2013 before even any of their code was published ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.msg1551096#msg1551096 ) 04:58 < op_null> "just set a reorg limit say 100 blocks" that sounds familiar. 05:02 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:17 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:21 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:23 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:29 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:35 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:53 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59 < kanzure> "The Fischer Lynch Paterson impossibility result (FLP) states that a deterministic asynchronous consensus system can have at most two of the following three properties: safety (results are valid and identical at all nodes), guaranteed termination or liveness (nodes that don’t fail always produce a result), and fault tolerance (the system can survive the failure of one node at any point). This is a proven result. Any distributed ... 05:59 < kanzure> ... consensus system on the Internet must sacrifice one of these features." 06:01 < kanzure> "This situation has led us to believe it is no longer safe to run the existing Ripple/Stellar consensus system with more than one validating node because doing so would expose funds in the network to potential double spends and ledger forks." 06:01 < kanzure> ("Each participant in the ripple network has a list of validators. This list is also known as a unique node list UNL. Every validating node that is online will see all transactions. Periodically all nodes will try to validate or close a new ledger.") 06:01 < kanzure> so uh they have disabled consensus? 06:01 < kanzure> *disabled (broken) consensus? 06:05 < gmaxwell> at that event I was at on tuesday someone had a pretty vigorous argument with me that their consensus was provably correct, meanwhile I'm pointing out that it's not stable even absent an attacker. I didn't expect such a well timed response there. 06:06 < kanzure> insert quip here about those who are willing to wait 06:07 < gmaxwell> There certantly are designs that can get you a consensus safely, if you abandon decenteralization as a goal and don't mind losing a fair amount of fault tolerance. 06:08 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 < kanzure> as far as i can tell, switching to centralization is still an option for them, given the sorts of promises that the stellar people have made i think 06:08 < gmaxwell> now I wish I hadn't been pulled into an interview during the time the stellar panel was running; one of the other attendees was nagging me to give them hell on that point. Would have seemed especially predictive. 06:08 < kanzure> i mean, they have not made decentralization and distributed consensus their particular crusade, so if they don't want to bother then they should just lose all of that extra architecture fluff 06:09 < kanzure> er, by which i mean the latest marketing from stellar, not ripple i guess 06:09 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:10 < op_null> stellar might as well just be called ripple. there's no functional changes from opencoin ripple are there? 06:10 < gmaxwell> Well I don't think they ever had an actual decenteralization argument to begin with... basically the fragility of their model was so obvious I can't believe they believed it themselves. (See the BCT thread; it's easy to draw UNL topologies which are _guarenteed_ to fail by change) 06:10 < kanzure> it would be interesting to see if the trend of altcoins and poorly-implemented non-consensus consensus systems over the long-term creates a demand for developers capable of safely transitioning to centralized systems from project owners 06:10 < gmaxwell> s/change/chance/ 06:11 < op_null> kanzure: remember that a lot (if not most) altcoins are already centralised entirely. 06:11 < kanzure> has anyone actually demonstrated a competent "wind-down" of "distributed consensus" into a centralized system? 06:11 < kanzure> they are "centralized" but yet they still have all this bitcoin client nonsense 06:11 < kanzure> all of that can go away if you're doing centralization 06:11 < op_null> if they didn't people wouldn't use them 06:11 < kanzure> okay fine, offer a client but it doesn't have to be bitcoind 06:12 < op_null> you could probably release a client that looks like bitcoin core but just connects to a central database and not many people would notice. 06:12 < kanzure> there are a set of steps to migrate all the extra non-working stuff off of your network into a more efficient system 06:12 < kanzure> right 06:12 < kanzure> things like that 06:12 < gmaxwell> well the ripple software is more sutable in that capacity. 06:12 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:13 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:13 < kanzure> i wonder how to convince people with broken consensus systems that it's worth paying someone to do that sort of network migration 06:13 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 < kanzure> clearly they already don't care aobut security, so arguments about security benefits wont work 06:14 < op_null> I don't think there's a demand for that. systems like darkcoin are centralised but their model relies on them pretending that they're not. 06:14 < kanzure> if they want to make convoluted lies then there's much better ways to do that in software that do not require the complexity of bitcoin 06:15 < kanzure> it can just be some sort of lie machine that spits out software that connects to centralized systems that lie about stuff 06:15 < op_null> easier to modify bitcoin than build something better from scratch though. I think part of the altcoin system is that because they are all based on bitcoin core, it's easy for places like exchanges to add support. drop in a new daemon, change the version byte and you're good to go. 06:16 < kanzure> a lightweight client that connects to a central server would be much easier to modify 06:17 < kanzure> stellar foundation does not seem like their existence is predicated on distributed consensus really, so why should they maintain their particular pile of software? 06:21 < kanzure> in the case of bitcoin forks, you could maybe argue something like "An unforseen bug in your unmaintained bitcoin fork might cause you to lose your 30% premine, so you should strongly consider migrating to a centralized system" 06:23 < op_null> I still think people are sold on these systems being decentralised, rather than just accepting that they are not. 06:26 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28 < kanzure> okay, but what does that have to do with anything? implementing a centralized system is separate from marketing. plus, they are already centralized anyway, just poorly implemented. 06:28 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:29 < op_null> my comment is just that if you designed a centralised app and presented it as "yo, try our centralisec currency", nobody would use it. people use stellar and other altcoins because they are presented and coded in such a way that they look to be decentralised. 06:30 < kanzure> people don't actually review the code though 06:30 < kanzure> so fooling them by turning their centralized system into a centralized system doesn't seem particularly harmful. actually, it seems pretty safe to me. 06:33 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:38 * op_null shrugs 06:46 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52 -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:54 -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:00 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:109f:4291:d38f:9018] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:05 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:109f:4291:d38f:9018] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:08 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:3c71:814e:23f1:a33f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:27 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:33 -!- Quanttek_ [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:31c8:451b:23d9:1566] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:36 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@5.157.38.26] has quit [Quit: Profreid] 07:53 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:59 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:14 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:15 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@5.153.234.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:29 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@g225045167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:29 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Killed (rajaniemi.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 08:29 -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 08:37 -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:37 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:53 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust570.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust570.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:53 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:55 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:57 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08 < Emcy> hey is tls using elliptic curve crypto now and does github use it for all downloads? 09:09 < Emcy> im trying to work out why my browser refuses to dl anything from github 09:10 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:18 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@5.153.234.98] has quit [Quit: Profreid] 09:36 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- gues [~gues@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:39 -!- gues___ [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-trgsfcrgvxvcqlwg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:42 < nsh> TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256, 128 bit keys 09:42 < nsh> is what i get with firefox 09:43 < nsh> Emcy, does your browser not support ECDHE at all? 09:43 < Emcy> apparently not 09:43 < nsh> probably want to correct that, i'd guess 09:43 < Emcy> is it elliptic curve 09:43 < sipa> yes 09:44 < Emcy> neat. That must have come in in the last year or so 09:44 < nsh> "snowden-effect" :) 09:45 < kanzure> haha, "How'd you centralize your decentralized system? It sounds like something that shouldn't be possible unless it's actually centralized to begin with." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708844 09:45 < Emcy> yeah 09:45 < Emcy> kanzure microsoft wrt skype 09:46 < fluffypony> oh I thought that was a comment on Darkcoin 09:46 < fluffypony> :-P 09:46 < kanzure> as funny as his comment was, it is trivial to centralize any decentralized system as long as you do not care about popularity of your centralization 09:47 < kanzure> er, subject to one or two extra constraints that i am forgetting? 09:49 < nsh> that's quite general a statement, too much so for me to have any idea what it means 09:54 < kanzure> well, anyone can take a blockchain of data and convert it into some central ledger that does not run a p2p consensus node 09:56 < sipa> or run a single node of an otherwise decentralized system, and just advertize its state 09:57 < op_null> oh like proof of text? 09:57 < op_null> .. stake 09:57 < op_null> no idea how that got in there. 09:58 < Emcy> nsh im glad the technologists are stepping up where elected representatives failed 09:59 < Emcy> really glad 09:59 < nsh> it's something at least :) 09:59 < Emcy> who said a technocracy is a bad thing.. 10:00 < nsh> people who don't like the peer-selection of technological merit and prefer their own technocrats, generally 10:00 < Emcy> nsh yes its something. At the very least it pushes back against any perception that civil society consented to the hand up the skirt 10:01 * nsh nods 10:01 < kanzure> haha "So, to illustrate a fork, color a majority of the circles one color and then simultaneously color a different majority another color. Clearly, this is impossible." 10:01 < kanzure> (from https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8629&start=0#p59073 ) 10:03 < op_null> isn't that just classic sybil time? 10:11 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:13 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:13 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-kgqdcrlsvqjxdrej] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:13 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:18 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:20 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I can't believe Joel is still pushing that broken view. Yes, what he's saying is strictly correct but it requires every single participant to have the same list of nodes, set out in advance... Which isn't something they claim to require (because it appear incompatible with decenteralization) 10:21 < kanzure> have you ever been able to figure out where his fundamental hangups are coming from? 10:21 < kanzure> like what does his objections actually distill to 10:23 < gmaxwell> Well you can see that wtf ripple thread, I drew a number of topologies which were guaranteed to suffer irrecoverable convergence failure, even if there is no attacker... and his only answer was "just don't configure the network that way". I was unable to extract any argument about what _precisely_ was the topology requirement, and how they had any hope to achieve that requirement (at all), much less absent some central party. 10:23 < gmaxwell> One sufficient criteria is for everyone to have the same UNL at all times, which seems to suggest you need some trusted party to administer the UNL (otherwise something has to stop me from filling it with clones) 10:25 < gmaxwell> It's not necessary though, other graphs are also stable... but no clue how to achieve any admissable graph in a decenteralized manner. "Add whom you trust" seems to be almost a pessimal construction, since social graphs are very clique-heavy. 10:27 < kanzure> any speculation as to why he thought it was acceptable to suggest not configuring networks like that? 10:28 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 < nsh> an idiomatic understanding of robustness, i guess 10:29 < gmaxwell> Presumably stuck in centeralized thinking? I mean, I think it's completely reasonable to build centeralized systems too... 10:31 < kanzure> well, if i was designing a centralized solution, his solution is not one i would pick 10:31 < kanzure> there are many improvements i could offer for that 10:45 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:24 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:29 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- NewLiberty 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[~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25 -!- roidster [~chatzilla@96-41-48-194.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 -!- roidster is now known as Guest61156 13:27 -!- Guest61156 [~chatzilla@96-41-48-194.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33 -!- zaan [~zan@179.43.134.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:42 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.123.45] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:42 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.123.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:52 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180205156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55 -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:58 -!- v3Rve [verve@i.am.on.irc.so] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:01 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180205156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:01 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180205156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09 -!- gues___ [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-trgsfcrgvxvcqlwg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:11 -!- gues_ [~gues@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:12 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16 < nsh> -- 14:16 < nsh> <tarcieri> nsh: their ledger forked, and they claim it's because their consensus algorithm is buggy 14:16 < nsh> <nsh> oh my. good thing they got rid of PoW and simplified stuff as you lauded yesterday 14:16 < nsh> <nsh> kekek 14:16 < nsh> <tarcieri> they're making a new consensus algorithm in conjunction with an academic, and it will be proven correct by formal models 14:16 < nsh> <nsh> sorry, i'm a terrible human being 14:16 < nsh> <tarcieri> lol 14:16 < nsh> -- schaudenfreude is sometimes indicated 14:17 < nsh> re: https://www.stellar.org/blog/safety_liveness_and_fault_tolerance_consensus_choice/ 14:17 < kanzure> i don't think the fork is the notable aspect there at all 14:17 < nsh> i doubt this proven correct by formal models thing will go exactly as envisioned either, but it'll be fun to watch in any case 14:17 < nsh> kanzure, oh? 14:18 * nsh reads the post whynot 14:19 < kanzure> "turning off" decentralization seems more notable there... 14:21 < nsh> oh, is this what you were talking about earlier? 14:22 < kanzure> yeah 14:23 < nsh> oh right, they reduce to a single validating node 14:23 < nsh> so basically give up everything that makes it anything like progress 14:23 < kanzure> arguably a broken distributed consensus system is not progress 14:24 < kanzure> and any broken distributed consensus system that is subject to attack is basically quite similar to a centralized system in function or operation 14:24 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:24 < nsh> if can break in didactically useful ways. or at least serve as an object lesson in misinvestment of effort 14:24 < nsh> *it 14:24 * nsh nods 14:25 -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 14:26 -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:42 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:44 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:45 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:47 -!- askmike_ [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:49 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:50 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:58 < kanzure> "Each shard is uniquely encrypted. This means that malicious farmers cant pretend to have multiple redundant copies of a file when they only have one." 14:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:58 < kanzure> this seems pretty false (since you can ask a peer) 14:59 < kanzure> oh, if you assume a central way of distributing salts, that could work, but defeats many of the other purposes 15:04 < kanzure> wow, the section on sybil resistance doesn't respond to sybil attacks at all... 15:04 < kanzure> (i screwed up and loaded the latest storj whitepaper and i regret this) 15:05 < kanzure> haha "This way, even if one of the nodes is malicious, it cannot fully carry out this attack. Nodes would have to be colluding, and if the client selects nodes randomly, the probability of selecting colluding nodes is small." 15:12 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15 -!- op_null [~op_null@128.199.56.23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 < op_null> kanzure: I had a logical trouble with it too. they say that each shard is uniquely encrypted right. but then it says later on that the network can recover from loss by dupicating the data from the peers that still exist. 15:17 < op_null> kanzure: which they can't do, because then you'd have multiple peers all with the same encrypted version. 15:18 < kanzure> you may have just broken the universe 15:18 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19 < op_null> I can't believe they overlooked that, but all the same it doesn't make sense. 15:19 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 < op_null> "If a node fails an audit or is unreachable, we initiate a network replicationprocess whereby we take one of the existing copies on the network and trans-fer it to a new node." 15:22 < op_null> "Each shard is uniquely encrypted. This means that malicious farmers cant pretend to have multiple redundant copies of a file when they only have one." 15:23 < op_null> the two statements are just completely incompatible, aren't they? 15:26 < kanzure> to be fair, they are probably taking about the file owner in the first quote 15:27 < op_null> it says "from the network" not "from the owner" though 15:28 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:28 < kanzure> true, a file owner could presumably access a network copy 15:29 < kanzure> also, there can always be multiple redundant copies of a file that are not uniquely identifiable 15:29 < kanzure> you can have truly unique copies of a file even if they have the same content 15:30 < op_null> I took "we" to be the autonomous network rather then the owner. ultimate cloud storage seems a bit silly if you have to be online all of the time to make sure it doesn't get deleted. 15:31 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34 < op_null> I guess you're right though. 15:44 < kanzure> there's many other problems going on here :) 15:44 < kanzure> plus, i could be wrong and they really do mean network 15:49 < op_null> there's a comment about trying to choose close nodes to you for maximum speed. isn't that exactly what you don't want? 15:50 < op_null> "As with the standard functionality of a peer-to-peer network, we can connectto geographically close peers to achieve high transfer speeds." 16:00 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:02 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180205156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 -!- bramm [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 -!- bramm is now known as bramc 16:06 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180205156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:11 < Eliel_> I'd guess you'd at least want enough of the redundancy geographically close to be able download the entire file from reasonably local nodes. 16:11 < op_null> close nodes means failure by tsunami is very likely. you really want them to be as far away as possible. 16:14 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:14 < Eliel_> if you go for over 200% redundancy, you can pick local nodes for ~100% of the storage and then distribute the rest maximizing the geographical distribution. 16:15 < Eliel_> that will still withstand a tsunami that wipes out the local nodes. 16:17 < Eliel_> ... in fact, in most cases the network isn't needed for that since a copy of the file is stored locally on the user's computer :P 16:19 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:21 -!- bitstein [~bitstein@199.19.94.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- bitstein [~bitstein@199.19.94.193] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:30 -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:38 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2c97:68b8:a3df:e5af] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:47 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:54 -!- op_null [~op_null@128.199.56.23] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:03 -!- askmike_ [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:18 -!- Hunger- [hunger@proactivesec.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:20 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:24 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27 -!- isis [~isis@abulafia.patternsinthevoid.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgmqtapftrvickrr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45 -!- Hunger- [hunger@proactivesec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:48 -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48 -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:53 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:40 -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:43 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:54 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:00 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:01 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:06 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@173.192.176.160] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 19:42 -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:46 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:51 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:03 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:03 -!- bramm [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:05 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18 -!- bramm is now known as bramc 20:28 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:30 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:30 -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cya] 20:46 -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:50 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2c97:68b8:a3df:e5af] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:55 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ilryimugiwsjkeio] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:55 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:59 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:05 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:08 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:13 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:13 -!- gavinandresen [~gavin@unaffiliated/gavinandresen] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:24 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2c97:68b8:a3df:e5af] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:26 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:30 -!- gavinandresen [~gavin@unaffiliated/gavinandresen] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:49 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@173.192.176.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:21 < gmaxwell> I'm a bad forum dweller and I bumped this old thread for an I told you so, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.msg9764161#msg9764161 22:23 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgmqtapftrvickrr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:35 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44 < gwillen> gmaxwell: well, this is a channel for wizardry, and ... thread necromancy is clearly some kind of magic 22:47 < bramc> gmaxwell, This might be related to Jed not being terribly keen on sending me his technical docs 23:11 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:13 -!- ahmed_ [sid14086@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cfslklkyqmbzjrhw] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:15 < Taek> In defense of storj, it's not so bad to repair your files if you require the users to log on every few months or something. Depending on the average reliability of a node, using 200% or 300% redundancy could last a year or more. They just need to pop in once to restore the original 300% redundancy. 23:15 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:19 -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:24 -!- ahmed_ [sid14086@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-huyvvtseusaovfra] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:33 < fanquake> andytoshi There’s way to much interesting stuff on your site. 23:39 -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqscwmrloymuxclz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:39 -!- artifexd [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hplaxndormmueegr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:40 -!- Muis [sid26074@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eapbcqzygobjmepk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:40 -!- CryptOprah [sid32688@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lyfbfvzzwxsvrlsl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:48 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2c97:68b8:a3df:e5af] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:49 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards