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02:26 < michagogo> bramc: s/a text editor/sed/
02:26 < michagogo> Er, actually
02:27 < michagogo> make that s/a text editor/dd/
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06:31 < Soze49> Hi, I'm new to bitcoin, and I was wondering the status of the multi peer conection for syncronizing blocks, is there any discussion about it ? I want to contribute with full nodes in Argentina, but I notice that first timers consume a lot of bandwidth and right now limiting the bandwidth will punish the 'first timer' and probably chase him away.
06:32 < MRL-Relay> [fluffypony] headers first is probably a good starting point, Soze49
06:32 < MRL-Relay> [fluffypony] https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2013/10/core-development-update-5/
06:33 < sipa> Soze49: #bitcoin-dev
06:37 < Soze49> moving to bitcoin-dev thanks
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07:06 < gavinandresen> I’m 98% sure DER encoding IS canonical. The problem is OpenSSL accepts the looser BER encoding (why there is a BER encoding in the first place, I dunno, probably some committee compromise way back when)
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07:35 < wumpus> BER was the original encoding for ASN.1, DER came later and is the canonicalized form of BER with most of the wiggling room removed, meant for encoding certificates, keys and such. Accepting BER for those purposes sounds like a mistake though...
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07:38 < sipa> DER should have 0 wiggle room; for every piece of data it specifies exactly one encoding
07:38 < sipa> but indeed, OpenSSL accepts BER
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08:47 < tromp_> which is preferable: A) 2KB header and pow verification in time X, or B) 1KB header and pow verification time 8X ?
08:48 < tromp_> (for a prospective nonoutsourceable pow)
08:48 < fluffypony> what's the use-case for more header space?
08:48 < gmaxwell> usually bandwidth is more constrained than computation... but is this a decision that could be decide on a point to point basis?
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08:48 < gmaxwell> Being able to choose based on what your own actual capabilities are is best.
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08:49 < tromp_> yes, it could easily be a dynamic choice
08:49 < tromp_> but fixed once a block is computed
08:50 < gmaxwell> you can't commit to both and chose on the fly?
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08:51 < tromp_> no, they are different pow instances
08:51 < tromp_> X is about 500 sha256
08:53 < tromp_> it's nice that in making pow nonoutsourceable, the large proof size of cuckoo becomes a total non-issue
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09:35 < kanzure> "if I go into a coma and wake up 50 years from now, and I look around me and see all the various blockchains, then the one I choose is the one with the largest sum of work done across the blocks, not necessarily the longest, right?"
09:36 < tromp_> yes, it's trivial to creat very long low diff chains
09:36 < HM2> except you don't know if that work is equal
09:37 < HM2> you could arrive on day N where a new supercomputer had been invented on day N-1
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09:37 < HM2> so you would want to look at a graph of difficulty over time as well
09:37 < HM2> right?
09:37 < kanzure> i think it is supposed to be highest total-work chain
09:38 < gmaxwell> It's the highest total work chain. Talking about 'longest' is a simplification that is equal when you're not yet considering difficulty changes.
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09:55 < phantomcircuit> sooo
09:55 < phantomcircuit> someones offering me $10 for my trolltalk account
09:56 < phantomcircuit> er wrong channel
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10:14 < stonecoldpat> ill offer some dust change for it
10:15 < stonecoldpat> HM2: difficult changes over time wouldnt matter really, it would have to be the total-work chain, as the N-1 computer could simply produce the 'difficulty changes over time' chain, perhaps even mimicing the timestamps
10:31 < HM2> question, has the difficulty ever gone down in response to a drop off in hashing power?
10:32 < HM2> or can that not happen?
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10:33 < tromp_> it just did
10:34 < tromp_> https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty
10:34 < fluffypony> HM2: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-mining-difficulty-decreases-first-time-almost-two-years/
10:35 < HM2> hmm, odd
10:35 < tromp_> we passed peak hash :)
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10:50 < kanzure> another thing that would be useful is if you could make a transaction that is only valid as long as some other txid does not exist in the blockchain
10:50 < kanzure> oh wait, i don't mean txid. hmm.
10:53 < gmaxwell> kanzure: that fundimentally changes the verification complexity.
10:53 < kanzure> sure does. probably to an unreasonable degree.
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11:00 < jgarzik> in theory that is what happens today with 0conf tx + double-spend
11:00 < jgarzik> TX'A is valid until TX'B comes along and supersedes.  See also replace-by-fee.
11:01 < kanzure> i should have been more specific, i meant "where any other transaction can invalidate another transaction (or be mutually incompatible) without requiring the same outputs to be spent"
11:02 < kanzure> i believe that gmaxwell predicted this was the interpretation i intended
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11:05 < Emcy> did it really take that long for the mining market to react to lowering coin value
11:05 < Emcy> or was anotehr factor at play. huge lead time on hardware orders maybe
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11:06 < kanzure> it goes back to my suggestion (which turned out to be a slightly more nuanced variation of gmaxwell's prior idea regarding "transaction block commitments") to figure out an opcode for making a transaction only valid as ong as some specific blockhash is in the blockchain (and "valid only as long as these other outputs have been spent, without respending the same outputs" is a similar concept in the same family)
11:06 < kanzure> *as long as some
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11:10 < AdrianG> is there a bitcoin-specific irc network?
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11:21 < Emcy> i hope not
11:21 < Emcy> probably get owned on login
11:23 < phantomcircuit> Emcy, wouldn't be any worse than freenode
11:24 < fluffypony> hah hah
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12:39 < kanzure> could there be a p2sh scriptpubkey that places an additional constraint (besides signatures) on which scriptpubkeys are used in future outputs?
12:41 < gmaxwell> kanzure: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278122.0
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12:59 < kanzure> looks like some new opcodes might be required for that?
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13:02 < gmaxwell> the thread points out that it has a lot of unintended consequence potential that is kinda ugly. (there are positive uses, but its easy to accidentaly enable negative ones without making positive uses pratical)
13:04 < kanzure> someone proposed 1-of-2 multisig but with restricted covenants on where anyone can spend to... but this doesn't work unless you're willing to lock everything forever.
13:05 < kanzure> ah maybe it should be more like 1-of-2 multisig where 2 is required to skip the covenant
13:07 < kanzure> recursive covenant sounds a little strange though. hm.
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13:12 < gmaxwell> It's really easy to introduce them accidentally, we'd basically have them in bitcoin already if substr and friends were enabled and if you didn't have to have the input txhash under your signature.
13:13 < hearn> there are potentially some helpful use cases. consider giving a child pocket money that they can only spend at a subset of merchants. once they receive the money, those merchants can unlock the covenant and get fully relaxed coins again. you could do it at the wallet ui level but it's not quite as solid.
13:15 < kanzure> one use case that came up was something about collateral and only being able to transfer to certain bip32-style derived keys (from a certain root key) unless both parties were signing
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13:42 < gmaxwell> kanzure: keep in mind that testable "bip32-style derived keys" mean they effectively share the same private key.
13:43 < kanzure> well, i was pretending that Luke-Jr's email about p2sh bip32 stuff was figured out, but i didn't make that explicit, so fair enough :)
13:43 < kanzure> let's play a game of 20 hidden assumptions
13:48 < gmaxwell> I don't follow that.  I think you're actually thinking something is possible that isn't.  Say you have some addresses A, B, C  which are verrifyably derrived from master pubkey Q.  If you happen to be able to verify that fact, as you would need to be to make use of it in a covenant,  and you know the private key behind any of A, B, C, or Q ... then you also know the private key for all the others
13:48 < gmaxwell> .
13:49 < gmaxwell> Maybe instead you just mean to a predefined set of addresses, ignoring bip32-derrived-etc-ness?
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13:59 < kanzure> oh you mean "there is no way to distinguish between any separate use of those child keys", which is correct
14:00 < kanzure> s/which is correct/which i agree is correct
14:02 < kanzure> as for the email that i was thinking of,
14:02 < kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/33111591/ ("serialised p2sh hd chains")
14:02 < kanzure> as for the quip about 20 questions, i was mocking my poor record for (not) clearly specifying all assumptions
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18:57 < tdlfbx> Could a "work" algorithm be devised that computes something internally useful to the bitcoin network?  For instance, network topology optimization?  Can anyone suggest something "internally useful" that a brute-force computation could be applied to?
18:57 < phantomcircuit> tdlfbx, some sort of evidence of expended effort for example
18:57  * phantomcircuit flees the scene of the crime
18:58 < tdlfbx> Hahaaa
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18:58 < tdlfbx> This is IRC.  The arXiv is over there ----> http://arxiv.org/
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19:48 < op_null> kanzure: I think covenants also have a really nasty interface problem, no matter how you go about it users *can not* be shown coins they aren't certain they can be able to spend, so you know somebody will write software that does.. and trouble lies that way.
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19:51 < op_null> kanzure: I mean, there's no way you should *ever* be showing unauthenticated namecoin data to users right? letting them put in a name and it comes back with an unauthenticated address is just madness. only that happens in real wallet software now :C
19:53 < kanzure> how will clients use the data if they ever get see it or validate it?
19:54 < kanzure> *never get to see it
19:54 < op_null> gmaxwell: thought of a nice one for the CoinCovenants thread too. every output must contain the same restriction. it is that the output script can be either spent by a standard pubkeyhash, OR make a hash collision of a decaying amount. the security gets weaker the more you spend the output.
19:55 < op_null> 128 bit collision, then the next spend a 127 bit collision, got to weigh up the costs of spending it again and possibly losing it as a result. hot potato outputs.
19:56 < gmaxwell> Well all this does have an answer of "don't do something stupid" (like don't ever show coins assigned to a script you didn't write). Maybe people will write such stupid software, maybe they won't.
19:56 -!- BurritoBazooka is now known as Burrito
19:56 < gmaxwell> The only thing that have suffered from e.g. 1 of 2 and I can steal the coins back were ... well.. things I wouldn't consider counting.
19:57 < op_null> kanzure: that's sort of the thing. if you just resolve random names from namecoin, how do you know if they are at all legit? could be squatted, fake, just old. type in "gmaxwell" and you get the bitcoineater address and a note telling you not to use software so stupid.
19:57 < op_null> it's not an easy problem to solve.
19:59 < op_null> gmaxwell: thing is, I would have said that until I saw the wallet with blind namecoin address resolution. I think people just write whatever software they think people want, rather than what is safe.
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