--- Log opened Mon Dec 29 00:00:06 2014
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08:19  * jgarzik builds the moxie toolchain for the nth time ;p
08:19  * jgarzik pats himself on the back for picking little endian
08:21  * zooko laughs out loud.
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08:24 < sipa> at university we had a fake hardware platform to learn architecture/assembly/basics of an OS on, called DRAMA. the translation is approximately "decimal calculation device with multiple accumulators"
08:25 < zooko> ☺
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08:25 < sipa> decimal meant that registers held numbers between 0 and 9999999999, it had 100000 memory locations, and bytes were values between 0 and 99999
08:26 < tromp__> reken apparaat?
08:26 < sipa> decimaal rekenapparaat met meerdere accumulator
08:26 < jgarzik> sipa, We used SPIM (MIPS, backwards) at Georgia Tech.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPIM
08:27 < sipa> the idea was "it's about the principle, and not about one special actual platform. so let's make it so useless that you don't learn anything about actual hardware at all":
08:27 < sipa> yeah, heard about that
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08:29 < gmaxwell> before I bumped into moxie I had been thinking of just using MMIX. (I've never used MMIX but I did make a MIX simulator and assembler and some other tools eons ago)
08:30 < jgarzik> MMIX is nicely surrounding by Knuth's golden halo
08:30 < jgarzik> Was fun when somebody created the first FPGA implementation of MMIX
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09:04 < jgarzik> My moxie toolchain build fails because....  texinfo is not present?  sigh.
09:08 < sipa> the compiler needs to be able to read the documentation, probably :p
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09:10 < jgarzik> atgreen, Would you mind updating your two PRs, squashing "update" "update" "update" commits into a single commit per PR?
09:11 < atgreen> just leaving for day with family... :(
09:11 < jgarzik> atgreen, OK
09:11 < atgreen> I mean :) for spending time with family, but :( for not being able to do this.
09:11 < jgarzik> atgreen, I can squash and give you credit
09:11 < jgarzik> ie. manual merge
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17:08 < atgreen> jgarzik: awesome - thanks for merging
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17:35 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qpdnc/gregory_maxwell_how_i_went_from_bitcoin_skeptic/cn896ly
17:36 < sipa> i believe he already saw it :p
17:39 < sipa> ah, the specific comment
17:39 < phantomcircuit> yeah
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17:41 < rusty> Wow, I didn't know gmaxwell was the one who published those papers.  Sweet...
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17:43 < rusty> maaku: with your non-genesis target, did you want to exactly hit the target block, or is <= target block good enough?
17:46 < belcher> waxwing is in this chan, probably asleep though
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18:03 < op_mul> rusty: I keep suffering from the opposite issue. I see something and go to suggest gmaxwell read it, only to realise that he was the author in the first place.
18:03 < rusty> op_mul: :)
18:06 < fanquake> I suffer from seeing op_mul and straight away thinking you gmaxwell
18:07 < op_mul> people have made assumptions to that end before, and seeing me as Satoshi too.
18:08 < fanquake> I think it’s me confusing op_mul and op_null
18:08 < op_mul> same person. op_mul is just funnier.
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18:09 < fanquake> now I’m really confused
18:09 < op_mul> hold on. there's a picture which explains everything.
18:10 < moa> schizophrenia can be useful for maintaining multiple Nyms successfully
18:12 < op_mul> fanquake: I've been foiled by a person who doesn't know how to use git. anyhow, the nym was a reference to Andreas M. Antonopoulos publishing a book which told people to use OP_MUL in an example. being disabled it's a totally silly thing to do.
18:12 < adlai> for the N+1th time, schizophrenia a) is not dissociative identity disorder, and b) is kindof a madeup catchall for a bunch of conditions that nobody understands, except for maybe the people who suffer from them
18:13  * adlai knows it was a joke but w/e. call it a "trigger", since that's the word all the cool kids use
18:13 < moa> ooops, di d I mean multiple personality disorder?
18:13 < adlai> probably :)
18:14 < adlai> right now they call it DID, although these things get new names every decade
18:15 < adlai> schizophrenia encompasses such a wide variety of conditions that it's about as precise a term as "insanity"
18:15 < op_mul> one could say it's become a generic term like "idiot" or "moron", which originally had very specific definitions.
18:16 < adlai> around these parts, it's practically synonymous with "homeless person", which is quite charming of the idiots using it that way
18:18 < sipa> "i used to suffer from multiple personality disorder, but we're okay now"
18:18 < op_mul> I imagine you'd like the dutch a lot. hard to find much profanity in dutch which isn't a disease or medical condition.
18:19 < op_mul> it's special type of language where you'll happily wish leprosy or the plague on another person.
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18:20 < sipa> hmm, i've never known those used as curses in dutch :)
18:20 < sipa> (i'm flemish, and especially profanity differs a lot with dutch, but still...)
18:20 < adlai> well just yesterday i heard this dismissal of a disliked person's financial success: "may he spend it all on medical treatments"
18:21 < fanquake> op_mul heh I see.
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18:21 < sipa> i do know that dutch people sometimes call eachother 'cancer'
18:21 < op_mul> fanquake: it didn't make it into the print version, though the bit where it tells people to make output scripts that don't contain signatures at all :(
18:22 < adlai> what's this?
18:23 < fanquake> op_mul Maybe It’s better that I don’t read that.
18:23 < op_mul> sipa: yes, that's one. you can tell someone to go get cancer.
18:23 < adlai> oh. this is in "Mastering Bitcoin"?
18:23 < op_mul> adlai: yes.
18:23 < adlai> glad i didn't order it yet!
18:24 < op_mul> please don't encourage it at all.
18:24 < op_mul> it's a terrible book that teaches all which wizards despise.
18:24 < adlai> i was planning on glancing through the github before doing so, but i guess that trouble has been saved.
18:26 < adlai> this reddit thread is full of people who haven't read the sidechains paper!
18:26 < jgarzik> atgreen, thanks for contributing
18:27 < jgarzik> atgreen, I had to disable the gdb build in the contrib script, as it was dying due to -Werror + warnings
18:30 < op_mul> "A common misconception about bitcoin transactions is that they must be "confirmed" by waiting 10 minutes for a new block, or up to 60 minutes for a full six confirmations."
18:30 < sipa> 'must' depends on for what purpose
18:32 < op_mul> I think it's dangerou for anybody to make that assumption. it's free for anybody to make attempts at double spending against a merchant. in a lot of ways it would be nicer if the wallets attempted it by default.
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18:36 < adlai> for most merchants (of the "brick and mortar" variety), fraud is far more easily accomplished by just walking out without paying
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18:38 < op_mul> that would be a nice altcoin. the security model is just "nobody will bother attacking us". has instant confirmations!
18:38 < sipa> it's called credit cards?
18:38 < adlai> visacoin? americoin? mastercoin!
18:39 < op_mul> I feel you've somewhat missed the point.
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18:44 < adlai> how are double spend attempts free? they might not cost bitcoin, but they identify you as a bad actor. whether that's by having your face on CCTV, or getting your IP address blacklisted, it's not free. of course, merchants who can't afford even a low level of fraud should adopt an appropriate confirmations policy, but the ubiquity of credit cards suggests that a low level of fraud is actually worth
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18:44 < adlai> the convenience it extends to honest actors.
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18:45 < op_mul> you think credit cards have a low level of fraud? :)
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18:46 < adlai> compared to what?
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18:48 < op_mul> why does Mastering Bitcoin say that most software feeds output from a RNG into SHA256 to make a private key. it's making it sound like asking for 32 bytes is just too hard.
18:48 < adlai> all i'm saying (which isn't much) is that there are certain situations where accepting unconfirmed transactions is a rational decision. nothing about how common those situations are compared to ones where you'd want confirmations.
18:48 < op_mul> adlai: to itself, really. if the fraud level was 10% I would say that's pretty high, for example.
18:49 < adlai> hey, at least he didn't say that private keys are made by the user picking 32 secret bytes of their choosing
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18:51 < op_mul> still an odd thing to say, I don't know where he would have got that idea from.
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19:14 < jgarzik> atgreen, hum.  this gdb code executes a synchronous read(fd,buf,255) on a socket... is that correct?
19:14  * atgreen checks
19:15 < atgreen> correct
19:15 < jgarzik> atgreen, gdb always sends 255 bytes?
19:16 < jgarzik> atgreen, that code will hang if not
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19:17 < atgreen> no, it doesn't always send 255 bytes.  but it works - so let me think about this.
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19:22 < atgreen> jgarzik: ok.. read() on sockets behaves like recv()
19:22 < atgreen> and recv() man page says: The receive calls normally return any data available, up to the requested amount, rather than waiting for  receipt  of  the  full amount requested.
19:22 < atgreen>  
19:22 < atgreen> so that explains why it works.
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22:34 < maaku> rusty: i want to exactly hit the target
22:34 < maaku> the goal is to prove connectivity, so it's important to actually hit the target
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22:46 < merkle> what made vitalik contribute to storj? http://storj.io/storj.pdf ;)
22:48 < maaku> merkle: ask vitalik
22:49 < merkle> he maaky what do you think of factum?
22:49 < merkle> maaku*
22:50 < maaku> haven't looked at it
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22:53 < op_mul> "Although the Bitcoin Core client includes a Type-0 wallet, using this wallet is discouraged by developers of Bitcoin Core."
23:02 < merkle> hmm shawn is a very smart guy, creating a metacoin on top of several blockchains
23:05  * op_mul facepalms
23:06 < op_mul> this book has an example which makes private keys with python's mersenne twister RNG
23:15 < gwillen> op_mul: o_O
23:15 < gwillen> does Andreas' bullshit know no bounds
23:15 < op_mul> hello 53 bit complexity private keys.
23:15 < gwillen> op_mul: that whole section about wallets seems to be full of "and this is referred to as <term I just made up>"
23:15 < op_mul> probably less than that. I pulled 53 bit out of my head.
23:16 < gwillen> unless I'm just behind on my lingo
23:16 < op_mul> no you're not, he made up the term "encumbered" for output scripts.
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23:19 < op_mul> yeah. 53 bit is wrong, that's relating to something else. the big red warning on python.org about it though. not cryptographically secure.
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23:33 < gmaxwell> op_mul: I assume by "type 0" it means a normal randomly keyed wallet? we absolutely do not discourage that. (If anything I'd say we discourage the overuse of public derrivation.)
23:33 < op_mul> gmaxwell: yep.
23:34 < gmaxwell> It would take a 20 minute hack to make bitcoin core use one of the BIP32 modes in a rather dull way (e.g. just replace the random key generation with the BIP32 code and a counter). We have all the code for BIP32 internally.
23:36 < op_mul> I became less comfortable with HD wallets when I realised that backup safety for HD wallets is insanely sensitive. the nice thing about a non HD wallet is that over time a compromised backup becomes worthless.
23:36 < maaku> op_mul: you mean over time backups become worthless
23:37 < op_mul> yes.
23:37 < gmaxwell> op_mul: neighter extream is good. What you want is actual key management.
23:37 < gmaxwell> neither*
23:37 < maaku> so assuming you actually want a backup, you'll need to keep it current. and the risk of theft remains the same
23:38 < gmaxwell> maaku: the distinction is that old backups do not present the same risk of theft. e.g. that computer on the closet you haven used for three years that your wife gives away at a yard sale.
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23:39 < gmaxwell> What you ideally want is a controlled risk, where only the backups you specifcally care about are a security concern, and not the older ones... all happening in an orderly, intentional way.
23:39 < adlai> isn't this rather fundamental, though? any backup which is useful to you is just as useful to a thief [who knows what to do with it]
23:40 < gmaxwell> adlai: Not so, a backup you've lost or has left your control is not at all useful to you. And a backup the theif doesn't have is not useful to the theif.
23:40  * maaku makes a mental note to give the wife clear instructions about the computers in the closet when I get home
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23:41 < adlai> well, I mean the contents of the backup itself
23:41 < gmaxwell> I don't mean that trivially. If you're making regular backups on a rotation you're most likely to still have control of the most recent one.
23:41 < op_mul> I guess you could see a non HD wallet as forward security.
23:41 < gmaxwell> op_mul: you could have a forward secure HD wallet. E.g. rotating out the roots according to your key management schedule.
23:42  * op_mul nods
23:42 < rusty> maaku: hmm, OK.  Obviously that's overkill for SPV for header syncing, but I I guess there are other uses...
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23:43 < maaku> rusty: sidechains
23:44 < gmaxwell> Really snazzy backup management would let you create a new backup and it would keep track of them, and let you selectively invalidate past ones.
23:44 < maaku> rusty: you need to be able to prove to one chain the inclusion or non-inclusion of a transaction in the most-work chain
23:45 < maaku> *of a transaction in a different chain
23:46 < rusty> maaku: and you don't want to trace back more than one input, so you need a proof since then.
23:47 < op_mul> "While you can deposit funds into a paper wallet several times, you should withdraw all funds only once, spending everything. This is because in the process of unlocking and spending funds you expose the private key and because some wallets may generate a change address if you spend less than the whole amount." what on earth
23:47 < maaku> rusty: hrrm not sure what you're trying to say. at one stage you need a proof of connectivity to genesis, at the other stage you need to be able to show a reorg by demonstrating that block at height #x has changed
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23:48 < maaku> other slightly different constructions have different proof requirements, e.g. proving connectivity to the point where funds originally transferred in
23:48 < rusty> maaku: well, that's slightly different.  You just need proof-to-anything-in-previous-proof.
23:49 < maaku> rusty: not anything, you definately need to establish whether block #x changed or not
23:50 < maaku> since if the hash changed, the conservative assumption that there was a double-spend comes into play and the protocol needs to be restarted
23:51 < rusty> maaku: ah, so you need a proof of Y which includes block X'?
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23:52 < maaku> right, which is what we're calling a 'reorg proof'. it shows that block X, which you care about for whatever reason, is no longer in the most-work chain
23:53 < maaku> because the proof demonstrates more work than you previously knew about, and shows connectivity to a block at the same height as X, which has a different hash than X
23:53 < rusty> maaku: eg. the original from-sidechain uses proof Genesis->A->B->X->(X+N) and prove the from-sidechain TX in X.  Then the reorg proof has to prove from Genesis, A or B -> X' -> (X'+N+1), right?
23:54 < maaku> right
23:55 < maaku> aside, since N is specified by the protocol you could optimize for that length proof, but I'd rather not go down that path. there are infinitely many sidechain protocols which involve proving arbitrary historical data from another chain
23:57 < rusty> maaku: OK.  So, I'm testing the incremental approach, using that (almost) optimal incremental path approach.  It works pretty well in the to-genesis case, and it's *simple*.  I need to measure how it works in this case (and my previous non-genesis target simulations were flawed).
--- Log closed Tue Dec 30 00:00:07 2014