--- Log opened Tue Jan 06 00:00:14 2015
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00:08 < wumpus> moving the tests for RFC6979 from bitcoin core down to secp256k1 makes a lot of sense
00:09 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: no harm in having them in both places. RFC6979 CSPRNG tests are already in libsecp256k1.
00:09 < wumpus> we're going through some paces to add a test interface to a three-line wrapper around secp256k1, e.g. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5506/files#diff-54e45787cdb38fd8469fe6d1c48e67beR76
00:09 <@gmaxwell> but perhaps the tests in bitcoin core should just be whole transactions.
00:10 <@gmaxwell> oh yuck yea what you just linked to shouldn't be there I think.
00:10 < wumpus> my initial intuition was 'move this to src/tests', but that would move secp256k1 specific code to our tests, so in that case you could just as well do the testing in secp256k1's tests themselves
00:11 < wumpus> *some* signing tests need to be in bitcoin core, sure
00:11 <@gmaxwell> We should just test some "message","key" tuples in bitcoin core's tests. (key_tests.cpp)
00:11 <@gmaxwell> I already added some fairly extensive nonce function tests to libsecp256k1, just no static vectors.
00:12 <@gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/commit/941e221f66213d092869ff95d313de8b18277028
00:12 < wumpus> yes, now that it's all deterministic we can make it a data-driven test
00:13 <@gmaxwell> I didn't add static vectors because I would have had to author some, and authoring them using libsecp256k1 didn't seem prudent.
00:13 <@gmaxwell> But I'd forgotten that sipa had already done this with different code.
00:13 < sipa> well you can revert to bitcoin core aftrr deterministic signing, but before the secp256k1 merge
00:13 < wumpus> I was also a bit confused about having a function pointer to generate nonces on the signing interface, is this just to accomedate this testing interface?
00:14 < sipa> wumpus: it's for bit-by-bit compatibility pretty much
00:14 < sipa> wumpus: oh
00:14 < wumpus> sipa: from a testing viewpoint that's wise
00:15 < sipa> no, it is to prevent callers from needing to iterate
00:15 < sipa> and at the same time provide a safe default inside the library
00:15 < wumpus> but I mean, being able to provide a different nonce generation function in the first place
00:15 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: It also lets you get exact behavior with different nonce functions. (or, for example, if you care about speed, some non-spec tweaks can basically double the signing speed, rfc6979 is slow. :( )
00:15 < sipa> but still be flexiblr
00:15 < wumpus> ok, clear
00:16 <@gmaxwell> as far as testing goes, it's also the only way to make the varrious edge conditions like the nonce being zero or bigger than the order testable since we can't generate sha256 output with that behavior.
00:16 < sipa> right, computing the nonce in libsecp is now like 20% of the total signing time
00:16 < sipa> gmaxwell: double is an exaggeration :)
00:17 < sipa> maybe 30%
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00:17 <@gmaxwell> sipa: well it's like 100x higher latency than the low latency signing scheme I came up with (though you can't achieve that via the function pointer, alas.) so it seem huge to me regardless. :)
00:17 < sipa> right
00:19 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: also, some people might reasonably prefer to have an additional random input (this is actually accomidated in 6979), because they don't quite trust the 6979 construction without it.
00:20 <@gmaxwell> hm. we could probably make the stock 6979 function in libsecp256k1 take an additional random input if data!=NULL.
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00:21 < wumpus> gmaxwell: ok, fair enough. It does allow for a lot more flexibility, but I was just surprised as you're usually the first to worry about function pointers, 'but what about CFI!' :-) This is a place where c++'s templates would have been nice.
00:22 <@gmaxwell> yea, I hate function pointers.
00:22 <@gmaxwell> I did whine a bit when sipa proposed the interface.
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00:22 < wumpus> ok, I just missed that :)
00:22 <@gmaxwell> And was thinking of an ifdef to break the function pointers. (E.g. just require the null option) But ... otoh, I also hate unreachable untestable code.
00:23 <@gmaxwell> And I don't think testing it just one time is adequate.
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00:24 < wumpus> given what is possible in C I do agree this to be the best solution, requiring iteration on the client side would be a recipe for disaster
00:24 <@gmaxwell> In our actual usage the function pointer should always come from something const. (or in the case in bitcoin core its set to null) so I don't see how you can intercept control flow from that, in practice.
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00:25 < sipa> gmaxwell: perhaps that warrants a comment in the .h file
00:25 < sipa> "best practice: ..."
00:25 < wumpus> full-program optimization may help here - it could get rid of the pointer in the resulting code
00:25 < benten> Are there many more corner cases for nonce function tests besides those captured in the current tests you linked earlier? Looks to be about 20 tests
00:26 < benten> 20 corner cases rather
00:26 < sipa> wumpus: maybe we'd seed to split the testcase and normal signing method out in key.cpp for that
00:27 <@gmaxwell> benten: I haven't checked, but the tests there should achieve 100% branch coverage at least.  There are not that many branches.   One case we don't have a test for is what happens when none of the 0..MAX_UINT counter values is an acceptable nonce... becaues we go into an infinite loop in that case, which is generally considered bad form for a test to do. :)
00:27 <@gmaxwell> (though I actually did test that case locally)
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00:28 < benten> With ^C standing by?
00:28 < wumpus> sipa: yes
00:29 <@gmaxwell> benten: well I just checked all 2^32 and made it quit on the second time it hit 1. ("test all the things.")
00:29 < sipa> wumpus: i agree that it would be nice to have the testcase code not in key.cpp though
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00:30 < sipa> but i see no clean way to do so
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00:31 < sipa> except by passing a nonce generation function into CKey::Sign :D
00:32 < benten> gmaxwell: neat, just reading the test code now (we can always leave the infinite loops to ethereum)
00:34 <@gmaxwell> sipa: if we allow the 6979 function to accept an 'additional data' input, then your tests that need a randomized signature could use that instead of the external iteration. (uh, I forget what your update to the library rfc6979 pull does)
00:35 < sipa> gmaxwell: i really like the tests being deterministic
00:37 <@gmaxwell> sipa: I mean they could use that to put in a determinstic additional input.
00:37 < sipa> ah!
00:38 <@gmaxwell> (I think if I were an external reviewer I would be pretty uncomfortable with 'nonce += test_case' code we have; with klaxons going off about linearly related nonces.
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00:38 <@gmaxwell> )
00:39 < sipa> that's an interesting suggestion
00:39 <@gmaxwell> sipa: 6979 3.6 has a spec on additional inputs to the function.
00:40 < sipa> oh no; 7 more compression function invocations i assume?
00:40 <@gmaxwell> lol probably one more for a 256 bit input.
00:40 <@gmaxwell> maybe zero more, I'd have to add up the sizes to see if there is room.
00:43 <@gmaxwell> looks like it's one more by my figuring.
00:45 < sipa> meh ok
00:46 <@gmaxwell> yea, well, sorry, I dunno what it is with people designing protocols and not counting the compression function invocations.
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00:49 < benten> Are there any immediate plans for SIGOP count limits per block to increase?
00:50 < sipa> that would be a hardfork...
00:50 <@gmaxwell> No.
00:51 <@gmaxwell> No one has ever suggested it, AFAIK. I can't think of a reason.
00:51 <@gmaxwell> Other than the fact that the existing limit is completely braindamaged.
00:51 < benten> It's 20k now, right?
00:51 <@gmaxwell> (it actually doesn't achieve its intended purpose)
00:52 <@gmaxwell> benten: yes.
00:52 < sipa> in combination with the standardness rules it actually does
00:52 <@gmaxwell> well standardness can do lots of things...
00:53 < sipa> hmm?
00:53 <@gmaxwell> I actually think thats impossible to reach with actual usage (e.g. not with stupid things like OP_DUPing signatures or failing to use p2sh), considering that every sigop involves encoding at least 72 bytes of data.
00:54 < benten> care to explain a bit more about its failure to address the intended purpose... since if you had 2,500 transactions, each with 10 outputs on average (5x the average I know), you'd need it to increase, and p2sh buys us time for that but theoretically we'd need need it for 1000's of tx/sec, if thats ever to occur?
00:54 <@gmaxwell> sipa: the limit as is doesn't add anything you couldn't achieve through standardness.
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00:55 <@gmaxwell> benten: there are no sigops used for a p2sh output at all.
00:55 < sipa> wow no
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00:55 < benten> p2sh provides a more precise means to count
00:55 < sipa> i think several comments here are not relevant or confusion
00:56 <@gmaxwell> benten: that has nothing to do with _outputs_.
00:56 < benten> go ahead and clear it up for me, thanks :)
00:56 < sipa> first: for the current block size, the sigop limit is not a problem at all
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00:56 < sipa> if we increase the block size, obviously the sigop limit will need to increase too; as both are a hardfork that is nonextra difficulty
00:56 < sipa> *no extra
00:56 < benten> right, doing one mine as well do the other you mean
00:57 <@gmaxwell> benten: "1000s of tx/sec" would be the end of bitcoin as a decenteralized system, I'm completely uninterested in that. You can't hypotheize about it, but doing so will only piss me off.
00:57 < benten> i dont see any immediate need either, but was curious if I was not aware of one
00:57 <@gmaxwell> er _can_ hypotheize.
00:58 < sipa> second: for non-p2sh we only count sigops in outputs, not in inputs, so they are not a good proxy for cpu time spent in validation, which is what they are intended to protect against
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00:59 < benten> the 20k limit was intended to prevent dos, right?
00:59 <@gmaxwell> benten: and for p2sh we do not count them in outputs at all (there are none in a p2sh output), so with p2sh it's impossible to hit the limit via outputs.
01:00 <@gmaxwell> benten: its intended to prevent a miner from pushing all other nodes/miners off the network by having blocks that contain tons of e.g. OP_DUP2 OP_CHECKSIG that everyone spends minutes of cpu validating. (this attack was actually performed against testnet)
01:01 <@gmaxwell> Unfortunately the non-p2sh test checks in the wrong place. It checks outputs, where they're not even executed. It should be checking the scriptpubkeys of transactions in blocks. e.g. an excessive sigop pubkey is just unspendable.
01:01 < benten> but due to the limit being pretty high (20k), it fails to actually prevent dos, since a miner could still do this today?
01:02 < sipa> no
01:02 < benten> ah
01:02 <@gmaxwell> no, 20k isn't that high, even with slow code it's maybe only a couple seconds.
01:02 < sipa> it simply does not count something that corresponds to verification time
01:03 < sipa> it counts "creation of outputs that will have some combined time to verify"
01:03 < benten> gmaxwell, is moving the non-p2sh test check to the better place non-trivial?
01:03 <@gmaxwell> It's just not applied to signatures, which means you could still construct a block that spends a minute or so on signature validation.
01:03 < sipa> it does not count "verifying outputs"
01:03 < sipa> benten: it's a softfork to do it sanely, a hardfork to do it right
01:04 <@gmaxwell> and today we've been less concerned with attacks by miners, though perhaps wrongly.
01:04 <@gmaxwell> (than we were in 2010/2011)
01:04 < benten> What would a miners incentive be to attack in that way?
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01:05 < petertodd> benten: miners don't actually have an incentive to broadcast their blocks to >30% of hashing power if their goal is to get more blocks than the competition
01:05 <@gmaxwell> Maybe, you could potentially cause orphaning in other miners, but probably not for long as it would seriously piss of people and quickly trigger adding the additional rule to stop it.
01:05 <@gmaxwell> It's not the most interesting thing a malicious miner could do at least.
01:05 < benten> petertodd, that would seem to be the case.
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01:06 <@gmaxwell> s/of people/off people/
01:06 < petertodd> benten: you mean it would seem they do have that incentive or don't?
01:07 < benten> they don't have the incentive
01:07 < petertodd> benten: yup
01:07 < sipa> just 30%?
01:07 < petertodd> sipa: yeah, maths on the mailing list somewhere... I originally thought 50% but turns out I was wrong on that
01:07 < benten> we've seen miners avoid full blocks in many cases, but not the other way around. Although gmaxwell's description of causing orphans is an interesting thought, although risky beyond worth.
01:08 < petertodd> sipa: basically, the competition has to find two blocks and you just need to find one
01:09 <@gmaxwell> sipa: it's basically the same state has the 'selfish mining' paper with a perfect communications advantage (that is, if you can give your block to 30% and not have it go further)
01:10 <@gmaxwell> It actually causes you to have a lot of orphan blocks, but if you persist and all stays constant (e.g. outside hashrate not going up) you'll offset after the retarget.
01:10 < sipa> 33.3...%, no?
01:10 < petertodd> sipa: yeah, that might be the exact number, ~%30
01:10 <@gmaxwell> it's probably even somewhat more than that, including other effects, it's only a third with frictionless, latencyless, etc.
01:11 < sipa> sure; just questioning my understanding if it's a more complex expressionnthan "1/3"
01:11 <@gmaxwell> it's also complicated to analize if multiple parties do this at once.
01:12 <@gmaxwell> because if you're already one behind (but you don't know it), you need a larger share of the other people who are one behind to have any hope of catching up.
01:13 < petertodd> sipa: I derived an equation for it at one point - I may have even done it as an integral to try to model propagation - kinda forget...
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03:33 <@gmaxwell> 8117d2fc3223200de82e7f45d96a744d0097965c162779c433b9bd2802d92f95
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13:35 <@gmaxwell> Coinbase, blockchain, chain, what are some other companies that have taken the names of parts of Bitcoin?
13:36 <@gmaxwell> (I'm trying to make a joke on reddit and I need one more.)
13:37 <@gmaxwell> Seems like thegensisblock changed their name.
13:41 < op_mul> greenaddress?
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13:42 < Alanius> bitstamp
13:42 < op_mul> huh?
13:42 < Alanius> well it's a clear word play on bitcoin
13:43 < sipa> sure, all of them are
13:43 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i propose that all references to chain imply that they're talking about a physical chain
13:43 < op_mul> he's looking for more technical term dilution though
13:43 < phantomcircuit> possibly a gold chain
13:43 <@gmaxwell> in the case of coinbase and blockchain in particular they're using actual parts of the system which casually produces confusion.
13:44 < sipa> anything with 'mining' in the name?
13:44 < phantomcircuit> genesismining maybe
13:44 < phantomcircuit> brb forming new company "multisig"
13:45  * zooko laughs.
13:46 < sipa> is there a talk 'the bitcoin address' somewhere?
13:46 < Eliel> sounds like a mining strategy simulator might be useful. Make it a competitive sport and get data out of it as a result :P
13:46 < pigeons> not really a part of the system but there is the confusing "greenaddresses" v2
13:47 < phantomcircuit> sooo
13:47 < phantomcircuit> maybe we should get rid of "CWalletTx::GetAmounts: Unknown transaction type found"
13:47 <@gmaxwell> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cngl0zw?context=3
13:47 < GAit> multisigna
13:47 < phantomcircuit> i have about 20GB of debug.log full of that
13:48 <@gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hm. my p2pool mining should result in that but I don't remember being annoyed by it recently; I thought we already got rid of that.
13:48 < op_mul> heh, you reject raw multisig?
13:48 < phantomcircuit> GAit, would get sued by cigna
13:48 < phantomcircuit> it's not rawmultisig it's op_return weirdness
13:48 <@gmaxwell> GAit: :)
13:48 < pigeons> yeah there is a mining pool called "p2pool"
13:48 < pigeons> that's confusing
13:49 <@gmaxwell> pigeons: oohh god one, added.
13:49 < phantomcircuit> is it at least a passthrough for p2pool?
13:49 < pigeons> it is a p2pool node i believe
13:49 < op_mul> supposedly.
13:50 < pigeons> with all the fees of a centralized pool
13:50 <@gmaxwell> Maybe it is! I don't know if there is a way to tell without finding a share on it.
13:50 < sipa> and all variance of p2pool...
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13:50 <@gmaxwell> sipa: presumably it lowers the variance relative to normal use of p2pool.
13:50 < sipa> ah
13:50 < op_mul> gmaxwell: the evil thing is that nobody would notice even it was skimming.
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13:50 < op_mul> gmaxwell: no, it's just a normal p2pool node with high fees. not a subpool like ognasty's.
13:51 <@gmaxwell> ugh.
13:51 < GAit> for satoshi there's also his famous vault, closing down soon
13:52 < kanzure> on a scale of one to ugh, how broken is this coin selection implementation? https://github.com/BitGo/BitGoJS/blob/66fb0c833124e5561bf8d3477c4d632e488d1180/src/transactionBuilder.js#L121
13:52 < op_mul> kanzure: about a blockchain.info I think.
13:52 < kanzure> seems to be "pick the first inputs until the total is passed, then send the change back to yourself"
13:53 < kanzure> op_mul: please elaborate
13:53 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: first by what criteria?
13:53 < op_mul> kanzure: heap of shit.
13:53 < kanzure> seems to be any unspents at all
13:53 < kanzure> if that's what you mean by criteria
13:54 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: right but say they're sorted from smallest to largest; it's easy to make it unable to produce a transaction if so.
13:54 < op_mul> gmaxwell: seems to be sorted by whatever their API returns, I don't see an explicit function for it.
13:54 <@gmaxwell> if it's sorted from largest to smallest it will always work, but will tend to grind down coins into tiny dust, which is pretty bloaty.
13:55 <@gmaxwell> not that bitcoin core is amazing on that front.
13:55 < op_mul> gmaxwell: horray, lots of output merges!
13:55 < op_mul> I put A and B and C and D together and now my privacy is down the shitter :3
13:56 <@gmaxwell> op_mul: yes, well bitcoin core's approach is quite good for privacy if you don't reuse addresses (doh.)
13:57 < GAit> gmaxwell: is there debate as to which is the best algorithm? i would like to have a couple that optimize for different things, for instance, optimizing for expiring nlocktimes first, or optimize for closes match, or lowest fees, etc
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13:58 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, i had a conversation with someone from bitgo who didn't seem to understand that HD wallets are a tree and not a chain
13:58 < phantomcircuit> which was a little uhhh
13:58 < phantomcircuit> yeah
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13:59 <@gmaxwell> GAit: well I can talk to particular criteria. E.g. lowest fees for this transaction is sometimes bad because it can make you pay more fees in the future (when fees are likely more expensive)
13:59 < GAit> well i don't think they offer sub items with coincontrol
13:59 < GAit> (we only go one level deep)
14:00 <@gmaxwell> GAit: I'd not considered it in the face of nlocktimes funds before.
14:01 < GAit> which is bad for privacy i assume
14:01 < GAit> but i think people should be able to pick
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14:04 < kanzure> op_mul: thank you
14:05 < op_mul> for what?
14:05 < kanzure> on-demand opinion generation and code review
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14:08 < op_mul> kanzure: it makes me cry, I swear
14:08 < kanzure> we can cry together! it will be fun. and weird.
14:09 < phantomcircuit> mostly weird
14:09 < op_mul> > operating environment gives a cryptographically secure RNG
14:09 < op_mul> > oh lets make our own RNG using it, and then feed it through RC4!
14:09 < op_mul> every fucking time.
14:09 < phantomcircuit> i dont get why people use rc4
14:10 < sipa> hey hey we're not even at rc2 yet!
14:10 < sipa> *ducks*
14:10 < phantomcircuit> otoh attempts at building entropy pools also seem to fail
14:10 < kanzure> is that from the file?
14:10 < op_mul> because some decade old javascript thing used it.
14:11 < op_mul> kanzure: no, if you go deep enough bitgo uses the SJCL libraries random, which does similar insanity and doesn't fail hard if there's no proper entropy source.
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14:17 < op_mul> "/* use a cookie to store entropy." well I'm glad that function isn't used.
14:18 < kanzure> linkz pls
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14:19 < op_mul> https://github.com/BitGo/BitGoJS/blob/eda4c3f19c609e9d7e78099c253bc51ae6818a55/test/bitcoin/random.js
14:19 < op_mul> https://github.com/BitGo/BitGoJS/blob/eda4c3f19c609e9d7e78099c253bc51ae6818a55/src/bitcoin/jsbn/rng.js
14:19 < op_mul> https://github.com/bitwiseshiftleft/sjcl/blob/master/core/random.js
14:20 < op_mul> there's also a different "RNG" function here
14:20 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, that's about right
14:20 < op_mul> https://github.com/BitGo/BitGoJS/blob/eda4c3f19c609e9d7e78099c253bc51ae6818a55/src/bitcoin/crypto-js/Crypto.js#L33
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14:21 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: right?
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14:21 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, function get_random_bytes(count){throw "this is javascript what are you doing?";}
14:21 < GAit> uh uh
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14:24 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: but see, because there's no obvious break in that RNG (but it's fragile as fuck), there's no reason it'll ever be changed. awesome!
14:25 < phantomcircuit> there seems to be an insistence on doing javascript crypto
14:25 < phantomcircuit> i dont get it
14:26 < phantomcircuit> the language and most common implementations are almost uniquely poor candidates for crypto
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14:27 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: it's hip and trendy. move fast and break things!
14:27 < Apocalyptic> yeah, it's web 2.0
14:27 < Apocalyptic> everything has to be a web app
14:27 < GAit> trivial to get it wrong in JS ecosystem but is also trivial to get it wrong in C if you are not careful in first place no? i've seen hardcoded seeds before
14:28 < GAit> i mean.. sony.
14:28 < op_mul> in javascript it's easy to make mistakes which aren't picked up. the blockchain.info failure *should* have crashed if it was written in something sane. instead it carried on as if nothing was wrong.
14:29 <@gmaxwell> GAit: there is a lot less hidden complexity in C than JS. In sony's case they were doomed via an inadequate understanding of the requirements. The examples we've seen in JS have not required any misunderstanding of the requirements.
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14:31 <@gmaxwell> and I don't mean to pick on bc.i, they're not alone. There was another one where a change in an underlying library meant that the hash function that should have taken the message/private key always got the string "Array[]" or something like that, because an interface changed from taking an string in an array to taking a string only or something along those lines and the failure was transparent.
14:32 < GAit> i agree, i rather have languages and frameworks geared for this.
14:32 < GAit> currently on some platforms you are kinda limited though
14:33 < GAit> android/java or jni bindings to come C library
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14:35 <@gmaxwell> there really is no good language for this stuff invented yet, IMO. The nearest attempts so far fail at usability.
14:38 < GAit> web becomes immediately not so bad with the right/perfect hardware wallet (not sure if invented yet)
14:40 <@gmaxwell> Yea, I've given a fair amount of thought to having a HW signer... lets you leave 95% of the software in whatever tool you want, while the 5% of the stuff which must be really robust is in the dedicated wallet.
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14:41 < GAit> and as everything, things need some iterations before it reaches maturity, you can't just jump to perfection, it takes time and meanwhile you leave the space with the earlier tools which can be trouble. Start with one HW and then add support for more than one to allow multi company ones
14:43 < op_mul> trouble with iteration is you risk burning out your customers.
14:44 < GAit> i guess, especially if you have to make fundamental changes
14:44 < GAit> so far i've been lucky with choices, at the cost of less users
14:45 < GAit> tuning for security(and privacy for what a cosigner can be private) first and then increase user, which is always an odd compromise to do, where do you draw the line, especially medium security improves the average wallet security more than super hardcore security
14:46 < GAit> gpg: i rest my case
14:47 < op_mul> I'm trying to come up with a way to convince redditors to use floppy disks as high security storage.
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14:47 < GAit> may as well call it wallet roulette
14:48 < op_mul> Abort? Retry? Fail?
14:48 < GAit> gave me a good chuckle
14:49 < op_mul> problem is it's probably *better* storage than the things poeple have come up with regarding "paper wallets". they've all been taught to run this one weird javascript app on their computers and disconnect from the internet.
14:49 < op_mul> utter insanity, the lot of it.
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14:51 < phantomcircuit> "one weird trick, they hate it!"
14:52 < phantomcircuit> yes... yes "they" do
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14:56 < GAit> indeed i'm afraid of the paper wallet culture, the js pages randomly downloaded from many places and guides and the sending the change back to the addresses
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15:47 < kanzure> hi bendavenport
15:47 < bendavenport> hi
15:51 < bendavenport> kanzure: heard you had some issues with bitgo input selection
15:52 < kanzure> nah, i was using bitgojs coin selection as an example of alternative implementations to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/33d5ee683085fe5cbb6fc6ea87d45c5f52882232/src/wallet.cpp#L1232
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15:54 < bendavenport> the algo you point to is pure client code, so you're not really seeing much in the way of an algorithm. the server determines what order to send you the inputs in
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15:55 < kanzure> earlier in the scrollback someone else speculated as much (re: server-side ordering)
15:56 < bendavenport> that said, our server-side ordering is very simplistic currently, returning solely oldest to newest
15:56 < bendavenport> however, client can always request full list of unspents and apply arbitrary input selection algo
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15:57 < kanzure> hi mbelshe
15:57 < mbelshe> hi kanzure
15:58 < mbelshe> saw your comments about input selection.
15:59 < mbelshe> happy to have more eyeballs on it.  feel free to reach out to me directly at any time!
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15:59 < kanzure> yep understood, i've been busy on other rabbit holes
15:59 < kanzure> one alternative i've been pondering lately https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5524
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16:16 <@gmaxwell> andytoshi: sipa:
16:16 <@gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=916441.0
16:17 < kanzure> .title
16:17 < yoleaux> New HD wallet that tolerates leakage of some child private keys
16:17 <@gmaxwell> A BIP-32 like public derrivation construction which is somewhat robust to private key reveal.
16:17 < kanzure> ah yes i was reading this the other day, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Hierarchical%20deterministic%20Bitcoin%20wallets%20that%20can%20tolerate%20key%20leakage.pdf
16:18 <@gmaxwell> The notion is simple, run N pubkey chains in parallel for each P_n choose N random scalars X, and compute the pubkey as sum(P_n*X_n).
16:18 < op_mul> I don't like that the "discovery" is credited to vitalik.
16:18 <@gmaxwell> of course you only get robustness which is linear in N, so your pubkeys become large fast, which is lameo.
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16:19 <@gmaxwell> op_mul: yes, thats bullshit and actually obnoxious. You see thats the first thing in my response. The initial text I typed was outright rude.
16:19 <@gmaxwell> Their paper calls it "folklore". :-/
16:20 < op_mul> gmaxwell: well, just think of where we would be without vitalik pointing out our flawed crypto.
16:23 <@gmaxwell> andytoshi: your n-show signature is basically the same construction, is it not?
16:25 <@gmaxwell> kanzure:  it's kinda frustrating, because it's neat but I think not good enough to be useful. :(
16:25 <@gmaxwell> or at least I can't come up with a  use for it.
16:26 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: cool, iirc this did occur to me, but i don't think i ever brought it up because of the O(N) scaling in the security parameter. what i described to you was a selectively repudiable signature, which is a very different beast
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16:26 <@gmaxwell> andytoshi: oh I thought you'd done an N-show previously.
16:27 < andytoshi> :} i honestly don't remember
16:27 <@gmaxwell> Yea.  ... the O-n makes it .. not very interesting.. if it was log-n I'd probably be starting on bip3232 as we speak.
16:27 < andytoshi> i think i did such an n-show when we were playing with the output-size anonymity, but it was a one-off comment that we dismissed (because of scaling) and it didn't quite do what we were trying at the time
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16:29 < sipa> gmaxwell: i've known about that for a while i think
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16:29 <@gmaxwell> I don't think I'd ever thought of this.
16:30 <@gmaxwell> It's obvious enough once pointed out at least. But still seems not useful. :(
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16:32 < kanzure> could there be a structure where the public keys are deterministic in the child derivation sense, but the private keys are unspecified
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16:32 < kanzure> er, allowing for perhaps another input into the public key child derivation function prehaps
16:32 < kanzure> *perhaps
16:32 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: ask another way?
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16:33 < kanzure> well, the public key properties are nice, and keeping them tightly coupled to a deterministic private key generation scheme may not be necessary
16:33 < andytoshi> kanzure: not with ECDSA, with ecdsa the discrete log of the public key is always sufficient to form a signature
16:33 < andytoshi> kanzure: so you can play tricks with the KDF, but an attacker need not use your KDF; if the public key is deterministic then the private key will be as well
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16:34 < kanzure> instead of "enumerate all possible child public keys" perhaps you could just do things like "ask whether or not this is a valid child key of this known public key"
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16:34 < andytoshi> without thinking too hard, i'd bet you need pairing-based crypto to do something like that
16:34 < kanzure> (i know vanity grinding sounds like the answer there, but perhaps there's something better)
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16:35 <@gmaxwell> The only way we're able to generate public keys is because of a hormorphism of the cryptosystem.  That kind of testing must generally not work because matches must be cryptographically rare or you could just find out other people's keys were Nth children of your own. :P
16:36 <@gmaxwell> Yea, sure, in paring you can go one more dimension deep, and use an arbritary string as a pubkey.
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16:38 < kanzure> why is it important that the children are derivable from each pubkey anyway? why not have a separate data structure unrelated to key derivation that transmits that information.
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16:39 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: I don't understand your question. In BIP32 the children are NOT derivable without additional information (the chaining code).
16:40 <@gmaxwell> The goal of the public derrivation scheme is so you can configure your webserver with a small constant amount of information and it can generate an unbounded number of keys for you, without itself knowing the private keys.
16:42 < kanzure> in an accounting sense, you could store all public keys that you ever intend to use for a project (you can generate many millions of keys upfront if you really want to) which can easily be more than enough for many purposes
16:43 < andytoshi> kanzure: if that's an acceptable cost you can use BIP32 hardened keys, which avoid the need for tons of fresh randomness and don't have any of the problems we're talking about with key leakage
16:44 < kanzure> sure, certainly
16:44 <@gmaxwell> Yep. But it can still run out. And then your server stops working, ::surprise::  For those willing to do that, what andytoshi said. :)
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16:45 <@gmaxwell> A 33megabyte key file is kinda annoying. Esp when people are like "oh I'll just use a single static address instead."
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17:17 < op_mul> wow. consumer software.
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17:17 < op_mul> ugh. wrong channel.
17:17 < op_mul> sorry folks.
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19:34 < blockbits> are 20mb blocks a good idea?
19:34 < guest213123123> wy=hy not?
19:35 < blockbits> lets say i'm a startup that lets people serialize data, and put them in the blockchain as an expensive db/data storage
19:35 < justanotheruser> blockbits: 1) hardfork 2) doesn't solve the scaling problem, it only delays it 3) there are alternatives
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19:35 < blockbits> i use some scriptsig tricks to make large transactions that contain data.  i then bribe mining poools to mine my tx's for 0/low fees
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19:36 < blockbits> now we have mega bloat.
19:36 < blockbits> terrible attack vector
19:36 < justanotheruser> why would you bribe mining pools to take your tx for no fees? The fee is a bribe in itself
19:37 < blockbits> the pools will take my bribe which costs me less the tx fees
19:37 < blockbits> i mean, we all know that mining in centralized now.  blockstream will have to pay/bribe pools to mine side chains they like, and ignore ones they dont
19:37 < guest213123123> justanotheruser: why is hardforking bad?
19:38 < justanotheruser> This discussion probably belongs in #bitcoin
19:38 < blockbits> so really there's an easy attack vector here.  governments can just pay mining pools to mine mega-blocks and bloat the network
19:40 < kanzure> that has nothing to do with governments
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19:41 < blockbits> point is, do you guys want to see lots of tx's like this?  http://webbtc.com/tx/e6ff83a41715a87dad0b181febfaee2845e2a4334c3ce8bcb6ec697a6cfed5ed
19:41 < blockbits> thats 7000 bytes in a single transaction. mined a few weeks ago
19:43 < guest213123123> how is this 'attack vector' more dangerous at 20 MB than at 1 MB?
19:43 < blockbits> i make 1000 of those per block and then a blockchain-as-a-data-storage service for random files, I can easily find enough people who would pay... we'd be seeing 7MB blocks consistently
19:45 < guest213123123> not sure it's any less likely, or dangerous, or expensive at 1 MB
19:45 < blockbits> We can add 2.8GB to the blockchain PER DAY with 20mb blocks
19:46 < blockbits> thats 1TB per year
19:46 < blockbits> we'll see less full nodes.  we simply don't need 20MB blocks right now. all it does is open up the network for spam and data storage
19:47 < blockbits> plus, you can use off-chain micropayment channels to do tx's, and then consolidate into transactions on-chain when you need to
19:47 < guest213123123> what decides when we need it?
19:47 < blockbits> why do people think every tx that ever occurs needs to be on chain
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19:54 < nsh> andytoshi / gmaxwell, what's the center of secp256k1 over the   plane? i mean for some generic set-compatible definition e.g. you can trisect with the same number of points on each side
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19:54 < nsh> does this point have any meaning, utility?
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19:57 < nsh> could you not parameterize a space-filling curve starting at this central point, which is informed/train by generated/obtained curve points to improve likelihood of stumbling on new ones
19:59 < nsh> probably cloud-talk
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20:09 < op_mul> blockbits: it also increases the data rate to almost something which would saurate most ADSL uplinks.
20:10 < blockbits> op_mul:  you don't say.... ;)  looks like we're heading to an even more centralized network
20:11 < op_mul> well I wouldn't say that just yet.
20:12 < op_mul> but it does concern me that people piss away even more privacy with SPV.
20:12 < blockbits> op_mul:  you can thank mike hearn for that
20:13 < op_mul> it's a double edged sword. it's nice that lite clients exist, but BIP37 was a totally bum choice in terms of privacy.
20:14 < op_mul> would have been nice to get it right the first time, because there's inertia behind whichever comes first.
20:14 < justanotheruser> are there any proposals for more private SPV clients that isn't a security through obscurity or DoS approach like asking full nodes for a ton of addresses data that you don't need?
20:15 < op_mul> well BIP37 allows a false positive rate. it's just it doesn't do anything useful and all clients have it disabled.
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20:16 < op_mul> there's a paper talking about how useless it is, just by looking at the false positives and finding out how plausible they are. an SPV wallet pinging a satoshi dice transaction? nope that's not going to happen, so forth.
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20:17 < op_mul> phantomcircuit was talking about a better way of doing it. you have a new consensus rule that means you add a bloom filter of all the pay to pubkey hash transactions into the block. SPV clients can download the filter, match locally, and then download full blocks if they are interested in it.
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20:17 < justanotheruser> op_mul: Don't you think we should go in the direction of the payer giving you the SPV proof?
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20:18 < op_mul> there's some nice things that come of that. first of all being wallets can rescan at any time without having to squirt out new filters. remote nodes learn little about what you are interested in, and they can no longer lie to you by omission.
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20:21 < op_mul> justanotheruser: that's possible too, though I don't know how that works in the real world
20:24 < justanotheruser> well it only works if you have two way communication
20:27 < op_mul> horray. bring back pay to IP transactiond :D
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20:40 < justanotheruser> lets also have pay to public key
20:42 < op_mul> yeah!
20:43 < op_mul> OP_CHECKRSA512
20:43 < op_mul> real retro feel
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22:20  * gmaxwell gives general, unrelated to anything in particular, advice to not feed trolls.
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22:22 <@gmaxwell> nsh: it's on a finite field. every point is equally the center.
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 07 00:00:05 2015