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bitstamp account, to see in real time as the money flows. I've got https://www.npmjs.com/package/bitcoin-tx-graph-visualizer running, but trying to figure out the best way to feed the raw hex transaction data 05:03 < gavink> or maybe you know of a good existing site that does this, I did see some visualization code, but it required a lot of dependencies, and server necessities 05:04 < op_mul> what do you expect to gain exactly? this is more for #bitcoin, lets chat about it there. 05:06 < gavink> apologies wrong forum cheers 05:07 -!- iang [~iang@188.29.164.18.threembb.co.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:08 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC473B4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:12 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC473B4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:12 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host 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-!- Transisto [~Trans@modemcable026.188-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:13 -!- TechGhost420|2 [~kvirc@64.9.157.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:15 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162-245-22-162.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 -!- TechGhost420|2 [~kvirc@207.207.28.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 < morcos> gmaxwell: still trying to understand your 'provable hash' techniques from yesterday on bitcion-dev, why doesn't the second method need pairing crypto? and what do you mean a cryptobreak just gives you sidechannel, what else could it give you? 09:29 < morcos> s/doesn't/does/ 09:31 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f112539.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.229.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 <@gmaxwell> morcos: Pairing cryptography is required because there is no known (to me, or I believe anyone) construct for a small unique signature using just a plain DH group, e.g. you cannot use ecdsa for this. As far as what else? it could (but can't in this scheme) let you construct arbritary hash collisions, which would be pretty bad since you're encoding a scriptpubkey there. 09:42 < morcos> are you getting rid of all the publishing channels somehow? not just OP_RETURN? 09:43 -!- vdo [~vdo@177.Red-88-0-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:43 <@gmaxwell> morcos: this could be used for all outputs. 09:45 <@gmaxwell> Scriptsig is strictly less concerning, because a full verifying node technically does not need to _store_ anything for a signature. 09:47 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@64.124.157.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- Pan0ram1x [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:49 -!- Pan0ram1x is now known as Guest74209 09:54 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 09:58 -!- TechGhost420|2 [~kvirc@207.207.28.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:58 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-86.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12 -!- TechGhost420 [~kvirc@167.sub-70-209-1.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14 -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:d834:3a1f:63e5:bfbd] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:16 -!- TechGhost420 [~kvirc@167.sub-70-209-1.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:20 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:23 -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:24 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:25 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:36 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:37 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC473B4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-109-243-165-112.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- samson2 [~samson_@180.183.87.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41 -!- samson_ [~samson_@180.183.87.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:45 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54 -!- grubles [~dan@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:01 < phantomcircuit> https://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/552861244714405891 11:01 < phantomcircuit> wat 11:01 < phantomcircuit> the fuck does that even mean 11:01 < op_mul> what's interesting is that they claim they can't recover funds send to old deposit addresses. 11:02 < op_mul> you'd think they could try racing them if they still had control. 11:02 < phantomcircuit> they absolutely can 11:02 < op_mul> they're not though. 11:05 <@gmaxwell> why do you think they can? I had the impression they lost physical control of the hosts. 11:05 <@gmaxwell> (not that I actually know anything material) 11:05 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i would expect they have a copy of the private keys somewhere 11:08 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I'm not sure about that. the theft took many hours. if they'd lost control of the servers it doesn't seem likely they would have stuck around waiting. 11:09 <@gmaxwell> I can't come up with any other reason why they wouldn't try racing for funds. 11:10 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 <@gmaxwell> In particular they could probably get a couple miners to otherwise block spends of those addresses, so they'd frequently win. 11:10 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, failure to understand that they can? 11:10 < phantomcircuit> who knows 11:12 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:14 < kanzure> .tw 11:14 < yoleaux> We are fully rebuilding our systems from the ground up so that customers can use @Bitstamp with full confidence and trust. (@nejc_kodric) 11:16 < phantomcircuit> i hope he just means they're rebuilding the deployment system and not the code... 11:16 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 < kanzure> nah it'll be ready by lunch what's so hard about it 11:18 < kanzure> maybe they had a second implementation in progress from their last round of funding or something 11:24 < op_mul> that sounds very dangerous. rushing something unfinished into production could cause them even more problems. they commented that they had their dup system running with dummy data, I doubt it's a different one than before. the delay could just be them trying to still find the hole. 11:25 < kanzure> oh right, maybe they didn't have enough logging to find the hole, that would be awesome 11:27 <@gmaxwell> I don't understand why bitstamp btc didn't skyrocket in value with a compromise at play though. 11:27 <@gmaxwell> oh blonde moment, nevermind, if they were draining the wallet directly they wouldn't need to trade. 11:27 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:28 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, and if they had access to both they could have been selling swaps and making a profit on the price drop 11:28 < op_mul> even the outgoing transactions to the theft address are weird. thy don't even take the entirety of the outputs. 11:28 < op_mul> some pay absolutely nuts fees (1BTC) 11:28 < phantomcircuit> someone trying to be clever by adding larger fees 11:28 <@gmaxwell> op_mul: did they just ignore dust? 11:29 < op_mul> gmaxwell: no, they made more. like they spend 500 BTC of outputs, and make a 0.1 BTC change 11:29 < phantomcircuit> so then it was done manually 11:30 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-usbxrppqhxytkfrc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 < op_mul> http://webbtc.com/tx/a32697f1796b7b87d953637ac827e11b84c6b0f9237cff793f329f877af50aea 11:30 < op_mul> in that case, yeah sure it makes sense. they stole 3100 and left a little change 11:32 < op_mul> the change address is a known bitstamp one first used on december 30. 11:32 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32 < op_mul> http://webbtc.com/tx/82fd6fdcc09627414faad2b9c24500ed8ddeb284b6727e4faa5a666d06282369 11:32 <@gmaxwell> well you probably end up with a fee error just trying to send it all using a normal wallet... so you hurry up and lower the amount by 0.1 btc 11:33 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- luny` is now known as luny 11:33 < op_mul> here they take a totally odd number though, but again leave about 0.01 BTC to change 11:33 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1018:c04a:e4e5:6c8c:28fd:2a4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I don't think it was a bitcoin core wallet. core doesn't reuse change addresses, this does. 11:35 <@gmaxwell> it'll be halarious when its realized the theif put the funds in bc.i and bc.i was able to claw them all back. 11:36 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, iirc someone said bitstamp managed to push ~3k coins into cold storage 11:36 < phantomcircuit> but maybe that's nonsense 11:38 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: I don't think so. 23bff6715c450f2af6f56a42862ac5006eb6037fbee549c5820ddaf2afca7e5d was a transaction going to the bitstamp hot wallet which got swept by the theif again (0.15 BTC fee). I've got about 10 transactions in a row that the theif spent. 11:38 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:b3c:833:b74d:88f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:41 < op_mul> there's a couple of spends to other addresses which I can't identify, that could be it. there's maybe 10-20 BTC. 11:42 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: oh interesting, they did catch one or two 11:43 < op_mul> bb52c6c8041c1110bceb6a2afa5d387c1a180e833a435fea81da8c4c2ef34964 spends from the hot wallet to 1JoktQJhCzuCQkt3GnQ8Xddcq4mUgNyXEa, which is the "cold" address they have. 11:43 < op_mul> that's 1 BTC though. 11:44 < phantomcircuit> there seems to be a risk mitigation problem with exchanges 11:45 < phantomcircuit> anybody running an exchange is inherently willing to take on substantial risk 11:45 < phantomcircuit> seems a bit axiomatic 11:45 -!- TechGhost420 [~kvirc@69.80.108.201] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: oh found it, yes bitstamp *did* rescue some! 11:47 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: 2700 BTC. 11:49 -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc 11:51 -!- samson2 is now known as samson_ 11:51 < kanzure> they should generate unsigned transactions every morning (or whenever) to safely transition BTC to backup wallets 11:51 < kanzure> and then in an emergency sign those 11:52 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, they should generate and sign those transactions and simply not broadcast them 11:52 < kanzure> the downside is that the backup wallets have to be even better protected (and if your private keys were offline in the first place, then you have a bigger problem on your hands i guess) 11:52 < kanzure> not broadcast them? 11:52 < kanzure> oh right 11:52 < phantomcircuit> "big red button" sends them 11:52 < kanzure> agreed 11:53 < phantomcircuit> but there's a huge amount of security engineering that can be done 11:53 < kanzure> could also be a dead man's switch 11:53 < phantomcircuit> it's not clear where the line is on what makes sense 11:53 < kanzure> they called it "an excess of caution" but i'd rather go with "an abundance of caution" 11:53 < op_mul> having 18,000 BTC in your hot wallet is sort of nuts 11:54 < kanzure> do they have 18k BTC/hour turnover or something? 11:54 -!- TechGhost420 [~kvirc@69.80.108.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:55 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, that's hard to judge without daily average turn over numbers 11:55 < phantomcircuit> it's entirely plausible that they turn over 10% of their total per day 11:55 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: I can tell you looking at this that they don't 11:55 < phantomcircuit> i suspect they turn over their bank account something like every 5-10 business days 11:56 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, you have a guess at their daily average net turn over? 11:57 < op_mul> I don't think so 11:57 < op_mul> just going by the numbers though, they do a huge number of transactions but none of them are *huge* 11:58 < phantomcircuit> i see... 11:58 < op_mul> eh, actually there's some pretty big ones further down. 200 BTC out, 550 in, 200 out, 200 in 11:59 < op_mul> someone seems to like doing arbitrage with bitfinex. 11:59 < kanzure> bitfinex is also doing a single address? -_- 11:59 < op_mul> no? neither is bitstamp. 12:00 < kanzure> how are you identifying it then? 12:00 < op_mul> merges. 12:00 < kanzure> merges with what? 12:00 < op_mul> themselves. 12:01 < kanzure> if they are not reusing addresses then i don't see how you would know they are bitfinex addresses 12:01 < kanzure> or bitstamp for that matter 12:01 < op_mul> you filter all transactions for coinjoin transactions. then you look at transactions which spend two unrelated outputs. you pair them together and call them A. 12:01 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, it's relatively easy to identify exchange transactions because it's a reasonable assumption that two outputs spent in a transaction merge identities 12:01 < phantomcircuit> but only in the limited case of exchanges who are clearly not doing coinjoin 12:01 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02 < phantomcircuit> (which is currently... all of them) 12:02 < op_mul> all you need to do is find an entry point (usually someone talking about a withdrawl they made), and you can find the whole wallet just by branching back. 12:02 < kanzure> oh, because they are not being careful about coin selection and privacy leaks, i see 12:03 < op_mul> careful doesn't really help you 12:03 < op_mul> you're going to merge your outputs sooner or later, and then I've nailed you. 12:03 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, if you're not doing coinjoin and you're doing demand deposits/withdrawals 12:03 < phantomcircuit> then there is very little privacy 12:03 < phantomcircuit> (read: none) 12:03 < kanzure> there is very little privacy if you merge your outputs, sure 12:04 < op_mul> (dirty secret, everybody merges) 12:04 < phantomcircuit> i actually had a proposal to avoid this but it's potentially nasty (and is actually kind of obvious) 12:05 < phantomcircuit> simply require multiple addresses be provided for each transfer out 12:05 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 < op_mul> I suspect I've got most coinhashing addresses marked just due to your coinbase outputs. 12:05 < op_mul> cloudhashing, rather. 12:05 < phantomcircuit> then match outputs 1:1 to avoid merging 12:05 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: how would multiple outputs be useful there? 12:05 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, probably but be careful there's coinjoin stuff in there also 12:05 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: I pre-filter for coinjoin. 12:05 < phantomcircuit> iirc if you naively trace it shows we control something silly like 100k coins 12:06 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, er how though? 12:06 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, the recipient can link the outputs, but another observer cannot 12:06 < kanzure> the observer knows that you could sign for all those outputs 12:07 -!- TechGhost420 [~kvirc@64.9.157.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, the outputs dont get merged.. at least not by you 12:07 < phantomcircuit> probably the recipient merges them 12:07 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: depends how you mean coinjoin. I can detect a coinjoin with lots of inputs and like sized outputs (and some secret sauce), but I can't detect a manual one. it's possible that for you in particular I've got incorrect results. 12:07 < kanzure> that is a fun project 12:07 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, then it's pretty likely you've got incorrect results since the inputs/outputs often include offsets to pay people 12:08 < op_mul> kanzure: it's not. I'm out of disk space. 12:08 < phantomcircuit> also that's one reason why i suggested using power of two outputs for coinjoin transactions 12:08 < phantomcircuit> but that has the obvious downside of potentially serious utxo bloat 12:08 < op_mul> none of this scales, and I wasn't paying much attention to it when I wrote it. 12:09 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, how much disk space are you using? 12:09 < op_mul> uh. it's horrible. 12:09 < op_mul> many hundreds of gigabytes. 12:11 < phantomcircuit> shrug 12:11 < op_mul> it's actually got to the point as well that it's taking me longer to process blocks than they are coming in 12:11 < kanzure> op_mul: here have some more data http://archive.fart.website/archivebot/viewer/job/7i531 https://archive.org/download/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068_archive.torrent 12:12 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12 < kanzure> well, you should be using an asynchronous queue for your extra processing, and then just scale parallelism for that asynchronous queue of extra stuff you're intending to do 12:12 < op_mul> kanzure: I already have bitcointalk, it's updated in real time from the "recent posts" view. 12:12 < kanzure> do you have diffs of old posts? 12:12 < op_mul> no. only new posts and posts which make edits when they're in the list of 100 newest. 12:13 < kanzure> hm, so you at least are not overriding old versions with new edits, then 12:13 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1018:c04a:e4e5:6c8c:28fd:2a4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13 < kanzure> except for recently-made posts 12:13 < op_mul> to have diffs would mean I need to crawl the whole site endlessly, and there's a 1 request / second / IP limiter. 12:13 < kanzure> that's troubling 12:13 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 < op_mul> it's fine once you're up to date. 12:14 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, 1 request/second makes sense for trolltalk 12:14 < fenn> there's only ~500k pages so 5 days to crawl 12:14 < phantomcircuit> iirc it only applies to non-static content 12:14 < fenn> however empirical data suggests its more like 2 months 12:15 < phantomcircuit> fenn, a naive scraper will end up with a bunch of different formats for the same content 12:15 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 < phantomcircuit> wap2 content and what not 12:15 < fenn> i have no idea what that is 12:16 < op_mul> fenn: er, it took a lot longer than that 12:17 < op_mul> there's close to a million topics alone 12:17 < op_mul> and some topics have tens of thousands of pages 12:17 < fenn> <@ivan-> we ran a crawl of it that started on 2014-04-03 and finished on 2014-06-21 12:17 -!- coiner [~linker@58.187.193.203] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 < fenn> there may have been multiple nodes doing the crawl 12:19 < kanzure> oh that's the guy that notified me of the 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closed the connection] 15:52 -!- catlasshrugged [~satoshi-u@65.209.60.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-86.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57 -!- faraka [835ebaa1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.94.186.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:b850:8d5e:1f6f:4764] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: do you still have that ibm 4764 and did you ever get the dev kit for it? 16:07 <@gmaxwell> ryan-c: I do, and I've been unable to get a devkit, though I've only put a couple hours into trying. Actually I have two more of them now. 16:08 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: Would you like me to inquire about the devkit for you? I know an IBM lifer. 16:08 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09 <@gmaxwell> That would be pretty awesome. 16:09 < ryan-c> and by know, i mean that I'm marrying his daughter in a few months 16:09 < sipa> maybe wait until you're married 16:09 < kanzure> "what's a devkit between inlaws?" 16:09 <@gmaxwell> hah 16:09 < kanzure> yes 16:09 < ryan-c> lol 16:11 <@gmaxwell> ryan-c: my plan after the first failing attempt was to just contact ibm sales with my business hat on, but .. ugh sales. At the moment I'm wating for that before I have a concrete reason to buy some immediately; so that I don't waste their time. 16:12 <@gmaxwell> they're pretty expensive when not found as mysterious surplus parts, about 10 grand. Not an unreasonable cost for a business, but decidely outside of normal expirement parts pricing. 16:12 -!- narwh4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13 < ryan-c> I came across you complaining about not being to get a devkit when I was googling for information about what HSMs might support secp256k1 (someone asked me about it). 16:13 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: why'd you say that pretty much everything other than the IBM ones were crap? 16:14 <@gmaxwell> yea... HSM market sucks, supporting secp256k1 isn't the half of it.. if the HSM can't embed business logic then it's not really very useful. 16:14 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: yeah, i agree about the business logic bit. 16:15 < ryan-c> kinda pointless to protect the key from theft whilst allowing arbitrary operations to be done with it 16:15 < kanzure> er, but nobody is proposing you hook up your HSM straight to the interwebs 16:15 < ryan-c> especially for cryptocurrency 16:15 < kanzure> presumably you have some authorization process before allowing a signature (absent some business logic stored on the hsm) 16:15 <@gmaxwell> sure but if that was adequate you could just cut out the hsm and put your keys in that. 16:16 < ryan-c> kanzure: if you want to allow automated signing based on some rules, the hsm provides little, if any, security benefit. 16:16 < kanzure> ah right, i keep forgetting the default assumption is automated signing 16:16 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec3430a.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:16 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec3430a.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:16 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:16 < kanzure> my hsm use does not involve automatic signing 16:16 < ryan-c> it maybe makes more sense where the things that you could do with the key could be undone, or where you don't want the sysadmin to steal the key. 16:16 < kanzure> it's really strange, gmaxwell has brought this up in the past too, i wonder why i keep forgetting 16:17 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:18 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23 -!- wizkid057 [wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25 -!- narhw4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:28 -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30 < phantomcircuit> ryan-c, you can rate limit those arbitrary operations which could be useful 16:31 < phantomcircuit> but substantially less useful than generic business logic 16:31 < ryan-c> phantomcircuit: yeah 16:31 < kanzure> if you have bitcoin blockchain validation stuff happening in the hsm, you could rate limit outgoing bitcoin transaction amounts, that would be cool 16:31 < phantomcircuit> (that is effectively how intersango's hot wallet operated) 16:31 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:31 < ryan-c> kanzure: that would be "business logic" 16:31 < kanzure> where did you put intersango's hot wallet? 16:31 < phantomcircuit> separate computer which received payment instructions and applied rate limiting 16:32 < kanzure> home network lan? :p 16:32 -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, for a long time it was in my bedroom on a gentoo hardened box and instrumented to shutdown if anything weird was detected 16:32 <@gmaxwell> it would be pretty straight forward to get an ibm cryptocard to do blockchain clocked value per time limits. 16:32 < phantomcircuit> (pretty crap tastic hack which checked iptables counters) 16:34 < ryan-c> I have some stuff I cooked up that runs on a raspberry pi that sends stuff over serial and lets code on the pi actually build the transaction (which must follow a defined policy) 16:35 < ryan-c> If I'm going to be super paranoid, I don't want to expose the network stack. :-P 16:35 <@gmaxwell> rpi unreliability is annoying, also take care to not go through all that trouble and have a stupid timing attack vector. 16:36 < phantomcircuit> https://0bin.zertrin.org/paste/c37d7276dd833645a4403b9565da06f9f08b7589#yflkKzPJ6Dek4RybcHGul8NAuMeWmJy3BGNf188j5pY= 16:36 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: If i were putting it into production, I would use a real computer. 16:36 < phantomcircuit> any ideas why that wont relay? 16:37 -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:37 <@gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: my node took it, put it in the mempool. 16:37 < phantomcircuit> hmm 16:37 <@gmaxwell> that node is on git master as of this am. 16:38 <@gmaxwell> you already have a conflict? 16:39 < phantomcircuit> oh i see 16:39 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:39 < phantomcircuit> it's been 36 minutes 16:39 < phantomcircuit> the last block was btc guild 16:39 < phantomcircuit> i bet they're running rules old enough that the op_return is non standard 16:39 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: ugh, timing attacks, they ruin many things 16:39 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the rpi sdcard holder bends the sdcard 16:40 < phantomcircuit> i went through a number of cards before i realized what was going on 16:40 < ryan-c> I haven't had reliability issues with mine, fwiw 16:40 < phantomcircuit> flexes is probabyl a better term 16:40 < ryan-c> i had them in cases which don't have anything putting pressure on the sd card 16:41 < phantomcircuit> ryan-c, the sdcard holder on the rpi holds the edges of the card and applies pressure uniformly to the pins 16:41 < ryan-c> I like the low profile microsd adapters 16:41 <@gmaxwell> Anyone off the top of your head know of a solver that takes a large number of N-dimensional binary vectors, and a weight for each vector. And finds a set of vectors that have a 1 in each dimension with minimum weight? 16:41 < phantomcircuit> which causes the card to flex in the middle 16:41 <@gmaxwell> (believe it or not that question is somewhat on-topic) 16:42 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: like a constrain solver? 16:42 < ryan-c> constraint 16:42 < kanzure> sounds like something a constraint solver would do 16:42 < kanzure> doh 16:42 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:42 < TheSeven> oh well, why do people still use raspberry pi's... 16:42 <@gmaxwell> yes, its a constraint solver, but I was hoping for one optimized for this task. (I mean I could just use minion to do it, but I expect it would be slow) 16:43 < ryan-c> TheSeven: I think the answer is "they're cheap". I was looking into the odroid-c1 recently, which looks pretty awesome 16:43 < TheSeven> yes, I was thinking about that one (or possibly an olinuxino) as well 16:44 < sipa> gmaxwell: so per 'column' an OR over all the vectors should be one, while minimizing the sum? 16:44 < ryan-c> about the same price as an rpi too 16:44 <@gmaxwell> sipa: yes. 16:44 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i've been meaning to look into this one eventually http://www.gecode.org/ 16:44 < sipa> i've used gecode 16:44 < kanzure> http://www.gecode.org/doc-latest/reference/index.html 16:44 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: yea, gecode usually requires a bunch of per task coding. 16:45 < kanzure> ah interesting 16:45 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-hkentrllfevnryou] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:45 < kanzure> i was looking into gecode for parametric cad modeling reasons 16:46 <@gmaxwell> sipa: what I'm doing is I have a kabazillion test vectors for libsecp256k1, and for each vector I have a bitmap of every outcome for every branch in the code. And I want to find the smallest set of test vectors that hits all of them. (so hopefully it will be small enough to just stick in tests.c) 16:47 < sipa> doesn 16:47 < kanzure> could you do that by just looking at every line of code to decide how to hit those branches? 16:47 < sipa> doesn't sound hard 16:47 < sipa> but i have no clue about the performance 16:48 <@gmaxwell> well right, I'd also like to do this for several hundred million vectors input. :P 16:48 <@gmaxwell> I suppose I can probably reduce it a lot with a preprocessing step. 16:48 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: not to give the smallest set of tests. 16:49 < kanzure> if you have 30% (unknown) redundancy that doesn't sound too bad 16:49 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 < sipa> gmaxwell: define 'kabazillion' ? 16:55 < kanzure> it is 1/1024 of kibizillion 16:55 <@gmaxwell> sipa: several hundred million probably. I dunno maybe less, because I can eliminate duplicates. The upper bound is pretty high. 16:56 < sipa> preprocession by removing all results that subsume some other result would be useful already 16:56 < sipa> *are subsumed by 16:56 <@gmaxwell> yea, that might make it small enough that I could just throw minion at it with no worry. Didn't think of doing that until I typed it out here. 16:57 <@gmaxwell> well must be subsumed and <= in size. 16:57 < sipa> 'size' ? 16:57 <@gmaxwell> sipa: my tests are encoded signatures, and I'm trying to minimize the total size. 16:58 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-jpybaalwanejsijd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:58 < sipa> i just mean individual signatures, look at which branches they trigger 16:58 <@gmaxwell> (with a variable length encoding; which is a win, since most cases can be triggered by small signatures.) 16:59 <@gmaxwell> sipa: right and what I'm saying is that if one triggers a subset of the branches but it is also smaller, it may be in the optimal solution. 16:59 < sipa> some signatures will trigger a superset of branches of a single other 16:59 -!- wizkid057 [wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:59 < sipa> oh 17:03 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@53-109.bbned.dsl.internl.net] has quit [] 17:03 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:07 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:10 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:12 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:15 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@193.138.219.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:16 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:16 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-86.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 -!- ahmed_ is now known as ahmed_sleep 17:19 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:25 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:31 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:d04b:f1a7:c051:dd13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:d04b:f1a7:c051:dd13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37 -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2cb2:da29:14a2:2f75] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:44 -!- coiner [~linker@58.187.193.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:47 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162-245-22-162.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47 -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:53 -!- faraka [835ebaa1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.94.186.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55 -!- dansmith_btc [~dansmith@unaffiliated/dansmith-btc/x-0355117] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:2cb2:da29:14a2:2f75] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:05 -!- d1ggy__ [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-001-101.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:09 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-092-076-019-066.092.076.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:09 -!- beamlaser [835ebaa1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.94.186.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:10 -!- narhw4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:13 -!- DoubleIn100Hrs [3694512e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.54.148.81.46] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:14 -!- siervo [uid49244@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eltnqdeuxnwrmuba] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:14 < DoubleIn100Hrs> I just got paid on 4 transactions! Get in before the Ponzi is over!!! http://cryptodouble.com/?ref=aZk0V 18:15 < sipa> not here 18:15 -!- DoubleIn100Hrs [3694512e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.54.148.81.46] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 18:15 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o sipa] by ChanServ 18:17 -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:21 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:b9f6:97d8:2cfb:b4bf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:26 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:b9f6:97d8:2cfb:b4bf] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:26 -!- siervo [uid49244@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eltnqdeuxnwrmuba] has quit [] 18:31 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:34 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:38 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:d049:6ac3:c0cc:c48e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:43 -!- 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