--- Log opened Fri Jan 16 00:00:25 2015
00:01 < bramc> Yeah transaction malleability is a problem for spv. It would be really nice if the client knew exactly the id of the transaction it was looking for.
00:01 < bramc> Does the bloom filter responses include paths to the root, or does the client just trust the server?
00:01 < phantomcircuit> better fixed with bloom filter per block
00:02 < phantomcircuit> bramc, includes the partial merkle tree branch
00:02 < phantomcircuit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0037.mediawiki#Partial_Merkle_branch_format
00:04 < bramc> Not sure what you mean by 'better fixed with bloom filter per block'. What's that in reference to?
00:04 < phantomcircuit> bramc, calculate a bloom filter of the data in the block
00:04 < phantomcircuit> and then broadcast that
00:04 < phantomcircuit> instead of the client setting a filter
00:05 < bramc> Oh right, that makes sense
00:05 < bramc> much better anonymity properties that way
00:06 < phantomcircuit> yeah a bunch of us felt a bit silly when someone pointed that out
00:06 < bramc> although you still want to download a particular thing for verification if you think it's there
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00:06 < phantomcircuit> or at least i did
00:06 < phantomcircuit> bramc, right but that's relatively cheap :P
00:06 < bramc> Yeah but it blows your cover of being interested in a particular transaction
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00:07 < bramc> What is it which is bloom filtered? Is it the full transactions? Malleability is of course a major headache there.
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00:08 < phantomcircuit> bramc, you can always just ask for the entire block
00:08 < phantomcircuit> bramc, you just add the data sections to the bloom filter
00:10 < bramc> Is there some way of asking for the corresponding signature for a particular data section?
00:10 < phantomcircuit> no
00:10 < bramc> Well that sucks
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00:10 < bramc> But at least you can download the whole block if you get into that state I guess
00:11 < phantomcircuit> yup
00:11 < phantomcircuit> not free
00:11 < phantomcircuit> but for most people close to it
00:12 < bramc> Hopefully mutated transactions hardly ever happen
00:12 < phantomcircuit> oh but they do
00:12 < phantomcircuit> ha
00:12 < phantomcircuit> there's someone still mutating every tx they see
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00:14 < bramc> Has it been tracked down who that is?
00:15 < bramc> It should at least be possible to find their IP address
00:16 < bramc> Come to think of it, you don't really care about the signature, just the fact of the inclusion of the transaction itself
00:17 < bramc> And when you're getting verification after the bloom filter you don't need the full transaction, just the hash and path to root are plenty, because you presumably already have the transaction
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00:18 < bramc> About nTweak again: It probably makes sense for nTweak to vary between clients, but for a single client it should always use the exact same value
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00:25 < phantomcircuit> bramc, no idea
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01:10 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: I wasn't aware of that
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01:13 < op_mul> bramc: tracking down that would probably be easy, but it's fairly pointless because it's not like we can just ask them to stop. the only time the TXID matters is if people are looking for a boolean confirmed/unconfirmed based on TXID in blocks.
01:15 < op_mul> or if they're making interesting scripts, but for the most part users only care about P2PKH.
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06:14 < op_mul> justanotheruser: my point exactly http://redd.it/2smnhs
06:15 < justanotheruser> :/
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06:58 < op_mul> you know you're onto some quality hardware when the serial number of both of your devices is "13"
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06:59 < gmaxwell> bodes well for the device's RNG? :P
06:59 < op_mul> doesn't bode well at all, all the chips in side have their tops lasered off
07:02 < nsh> at emfcamp the badges had an ecc lib and (before being removed from the git repo source and replaced, presumably) the privkey had a lot of 0 bits set
07:02 < nsh> whole zero bytes
07:02 < nsh> not sure if it was generated on the arduino or elsewhere but i did make me wonder
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07:05 < nsh> --
07:05 < nsh> - // ToDo: Move this into file
07:05 < nsh> - uint8_t l_private[uECC_BYTES] = {0x20, 0x07, 0xae, 0x54, 0x20, 0x07, 0x00, 0x44, 0x00, 0x00,
07:05 < nsh> - 0x00, 0x00, 0x2a, 0x33, 0x73, 0x57, 0x27, 0x52, 0x9a, 0xd0};
07:05 < nsh> -- a lot of 0
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07:13 < pigeons> op_mul: what device is this?
07:14 < op_mul> software radio. sorry, both those comments were meant to be in #bitcoin.
07:16 < gmaxwell> sipa: Do you want randomized blinding in libsecp256k1 to add an argument (unsigned char[32]) to start? or a seperate randomize function that modifies the global state in place? or a seperate randomize function that allocates a new global state and frees the old one?
07:16 < gmaxwell> sipa: I wrote code for scalar blinding on the plane, as expected basically no performane hit (maybe 0.02%).
07:22 < nsh> what are potential implications of each option?
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07:24 < gmaxwell> it's just an API question. The update is not thread-safe any which way it's cut.
07:24 < gmaxwell> Perhaps that non-thread-safty is more clear if it's baked into the already non-thread safe start function. The code is also somewhat smaller just baked into start.
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11:46 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so this is fun
11:46 < phantomcircuit> i cant reproduce that 2600 second reindex
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21:27 < coblee> hey guys. I'm trying to figure out the best way to prevent a double spend attack. I figure I should ask here
21:29 < coblee> Luke-Jr: Someone has successfully double spent against Coinbase by using the Eligius trick
21:30 < coblee> When I first realized this was possible, we didn't spend too much time trying to fix it because we haven't seen it in the wild. Now that we have, we will need to fix it before someone really hurts us
21:32 < gmaxwell> 'eligius trick'?
21:32 < coblee> send first txn with zero fees with an output to a gambling known address. send second double spend txn straight to eligius
21:33 < coblee> eligius will ignore the first txn due to its non-standard rejection of gambling txns. and eligius will accept the double spend. the double spend might get mined before the first zero fee txn
21:33 < gmaxwell> Ah there are also other miners with various inconsistent policies too, so you can't hope to e.g. enumerate the weirdness; as the policy is opaque to you.
21:34 < coblee> i know
21:34 < coblee> so accepting 0-conf txn is risky
21:34 < coblee> the eligius trick is easy to perform though
21:35 < coblee> see https://blockchain.info/tx/ec0b3bdc47251c294d56ca8edf3d9fa730f7f7a4f8a0b3eff063e38b9c8c65a0
21:37 < coblee> i would hate to have to copy eligius' code and look for bad looking txns. as you say, there are other pools with inconsistent policies. so hard to figure them all out
21:38 < coblee> and requiring 1-conf would really suck too
21:40 < bramc> The fix is generally to wait until the transaction is buried enough that this isn't a problem
21:41 < BlueMatt> coblee: there are other ways to go about accepting transactions quickly, 0-conf is not the only one, and is probably one of the worst
21:42 < coblee> bramc: buried as in has a few confirmations, right?
21:42 < coblee> BlueMatt: can you elaborate. PM is fine also
21:42 < bramc> coblee, as in a few blocks have been mined since the transaction
21:42 < BlueMatt> coblee: green address, payment channel networks, etc
21:44 < coblee> BlueMatt: yeah, but that means it would suck to use a standard bitcoin client.
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21:54 < BlueMatt> coblee: meh, what is a "standard bitcoin client"???
21:54 < coblee> just meant bitcoin-qt
21:54 < BlueMatt> who uses bitcoin-qt???
21:54 < BlueMatt> or...who will use bitcoin-qt in a few years?
21:55 < BlueMatt> no need to optimize for that...
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21:55 < coblee> or blockchain
21:55 < op_mul> BlueMatt: non-core wallets are scary as fuck.
21:56 < coblee> Not accepting 0-conf would make the checkout experience horrible online and in person
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21:57 < op_mul> BlueMatt: even the ones written by people who should know what they are doing seem to often have absolutely insane flaws. I'd much rather use the one that has at least some code review and eyes watching over it.
21:57 < bramc> What are green addresses and payment channel networks?
21:59 < op_mul> er, you're going to suffer some google-fu distress here.
21:59 < coblee> would suck if only payments sent from Coinbase or GreenAddress are instant.
22:00 < bramc> It looks like they amount to 'use a trusted third party'
22:00 < op_mul> originally, some services like a mining pool (forget which) and Mt Gox made something called a "green address". it was a static address which they owned, and sent "green" payments using outputs at that address.
22:00 < op_mul> the promise was, nothing "from" that address would ever be a double spend, so you could trust it with 0 confirmations.
22:01 < op_mul> that never really gained traction because mt gox went down the shitter.
22:01 < bramc> That doesn't really help the problem because you need to have the foresight to send to that address to begin with
22:02 < op_mul> with a service like greenaddress.it customers hold one part of a 2-of-2 and the service holds the other. this allows the service to do 2FA and things for it's clients, but it also means that the service can promise their clients will never sign a double spend.
22:02 < bramc> And, yeah, 'trusted' third parties in bitcoin have a bad track record
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22:03 < op_mul> well, GAit isn't really trusted at all other than not to double spend. if they refuse to sign transactions for their clients, the client can use an nlocktime'd trapdoor to escape.
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22:03 < bramc> Oh, that makes sense. Do they also have timelocked return transactions so people can get back their deposited utxos if the service goes down?
22:03 < op_mul> yes.
22:04 < bramc> Ah, that's a fairly good service then. Involves a bunch of transaction fees though.
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22:05  * op_mul shrugs
22:05 < op_mul> if you want actual 2FA in a wallet, that's what you're going to have to do.
22:11 < bramc> It's really annoying how collaborative signature generation hasn't been built yet, but the math seems to be having some problems
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22:16 < op_mul> there is one for ECDSA, actually.
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22:17 < bramc> op_mul, link?
22:17 < op_mul> someone linked to it a while ago. there's a two factor wallet which makes a collaborative signature for a PKH transaction which is identical to a normal one. let me see if I can find it.
22:17 < bramc> All I can find is this: https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/stevenag/new-research-better-wallet-security-for-bitcoin/
22:18 < bramc> Note the caveat at the top saying 'our technique is busted'
22:18 < op_mul> https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fdiyhpl.us%2F~bryan%2Fpapers2%2Fbitcoin%2FRealizing%2520two-factor%2520authentication%2520for%2520the%2520Bitcoin%2520protocol.pdf
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22:20 < bramc> That being not live is less than confidence inspiring
22:22 < gmaxwell> bramc: it works fine with a trusted dealer.
22:23 < gmaxwell> There is also another that only results in a one show signature; which is perhaps not that useful.
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22:23 < op_mul> bramc: live? I linked to the cache because I don't like loading PDFs. there's a direct link in the header if you don't want the safe version.
22:24 < bramc> gmaxwell, Not sure what you just said. You mean the busted collaborative signature generation thing works okay when used properly?
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22:25 < gmaxwell> bramc: it's only partially busted.
22:25 < bramc> Why is there a paper from 2014 saying how to do collaborative signature generation when there's already a perfectly good paper from 2004 doing the same thing?
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22:25 < gmaxwell> they give multiple schemes and the ones with a trusted dealer (a centeral point generates the key which gets split) works IIRC.  The scheme with distributed generation does not.
22:26 < bramc> Does that make it not busted in the 2-of-2 case because one of the parties can be the trusted dealer?
22:27 < bramc> Is the scheme from 2004 busted?
22:27 < gmaxwell> bramc: Not sure if you follow what trusted dealer means; it means that that key starts out non-distributed. This is fine in some cases, and useless in others.
22:28 < gmaxwell> Its useless, for example, to protect against backdoored hardware.
22:28 < gmaxwell> (since that centeral setup hardware could be backdoored)
22:28 < bramc> Oh I see what you're saying, I thought the trusted dealer was a bit weaker
22:28 < bramc> The most important case is 2-of-2 with no trusted dealer
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22:30 < bramc> This is all very confusing. The earlier paper from 2004 seems to date even farther back to 2001, but published at a different conference? Maybe the exact same thing? And it claims to be provably secure
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22:30 < gmaxwell> Most of the prior papers are dealing in the trusted dealer model.
22:31 < gmaxwell> (and if you go back too far they're usually not talking about something that works for ECDSA)
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22:32 < bramc> gmaxwell, I'm specifically talking about this, which is from the link op_mul just gave http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F3-540-44647-8_8#page-1
22:32 < bramc> It explicitly says 2-of-2 and 'neither can alone'
22:34 < bramc> And the other thing claims to have made a working wallet based on it
22:35 < gmaxwell> bramc: yes, the trusted dealer schemes achieve that property _after_ the dealer is done. In any case; perhaps I'm not looking at it right now, just take care a lot of papers are tremendously opaque about their actual assumptions.
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22:36 < bramc> Oh, well maybe there's a caveat somewhere in there that they require a trusted third party. That should really be mentioned in the abstract if so though.
22:38 < bramc> Okay, you were right, it assumes a trusted third party in the 'initialization' section
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22:40 < bramc> I feel cheated
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22:40 < gmaxwell> yea; sorry, you get used to it.
22:41 < gmaxwell> A lot of cryptography papers are unhinged from application requirements.
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22:43 < op_mul> like that newer BIP32 deriv method
22:44 < op_mul> awesome, but super not awesome.
22:45 < gmaxwell> really for some applications the trusted dealer is fine (e.g. your risk is theft of the key "at rest"); for others (dishonest participants, dishonest hardware) it makes the whole thing pointless.
22:45 < bramc> op_mul, What are you saying? I have yet to figure out what's going on with bip32
22:48 < op_mul> er trying to find it. gmax will be able to answer better, but it was a new derivation method but with the cost of unreasonable storage sizes
22:48 < gmaxwell> op_mul: well it was interesting, but it has linear costs, and just generating one off keys also has linear costs... sooo.
22:50 < op_mul> I can't find the original post for it
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23:40 < bramc> Today I figured out how to make it so my proofs of work can be queried for only a single bit without having to return the whole thing, to make it more bandwidth efficient for a light client to sample them
23:40 < bramc> Not a huge performance benefit, but some fun crypto
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 17 00:00:26 2015