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02:45 < op_mul> http://fr.slideshare.net/EricLarcheveque/bitcoin-hardware-wallets-security
02:47 < op_mul> coincidentally something I've been working on as well, though I was a lot behind what Nicholas was up to. the general gist is that you can recover private keys from a Bitcoin Trezor using just power analysis during signing.
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02:48 < op_mul> and, thanks to the way the trezor is set up, a hardware intercept can capture the BIP32 master public key, recover a private key, and then compromise the master private key as well.
02:51 < fluffypony> yeah
02:51 < fluffypony> glitching ftw
02:51 < fluffypony> Ledger seem to be on the ball with that, from a design perspective
02:51 < op_mul> well. the timing attack is more interesting to me.
02:53 < op_mul> the attack I was hopeful about was using the sound card of the computer the trezor was connected to to capture the CPU noise from the trezor. sadly USB seems to be isolated enough on all the boxes I tried that this doesn't work. if you hardwire your USB port to your sound card it's all good, but that's a bit of a stretch.
02:55 < fluffypony> could've been a fun attack
02:55 < op_mul> (if you're curious, it sounds like this when you wire a trezor to your sound card and sign 3 transactions with it http://a.pomf.se/ztwqbw.wav )
02:55 < fluffypony> this is that wav that has the high pitched sound that causes dogs to go into rabid attack mode, right?
02:55 < fluffypony> :-P
02:56 < op_mul> er, the high pitched sound in that isn't that high, and it's just the linear regulator.
02:56 < fluffypony> I kid
02:58 < op_mul> the fun with the trezor goes further than that, too. with a software radio you can record transactions being signed on a trezor from several meters away.
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03:28 < op_mul> for that last one I couldn't really see the ultilty in exploring it further, especially as to use it in any sort of realistic circumstance. for the power stuff I intend to test libsecp256k using the same hardware setup and see how it goes.
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03:30 < op_mul> .. realistic circumstance you would need a second vector of attack.
03:30 < op_mul> I can't english.
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06:36 < gmaxwell> op_mul: well I'm very interested; right now I have no way to tell if efforts like https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/190 help against power analysis (libsecp256k1 is constant time on normal hardware but almost certantly not constant power); it might even hurt, but its unlikely.
06:38 < gmaxwell> it's basically free to do, so 'why not'; though there are other enhancements that are less free (e.g. point blinding prevents keeping the static tables in rom, since they get fully randomized) ... so it would be really useful to know if they help.
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07:39 < fluffypony> https://github.com/bitcoinfs/bitcoinfs
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11:38 < sipa> people attending fc15: when are you getting here?
11:39 < sipa> ping andytoshi, gavinand1esen, tromp__, ..
11:39 < kanzure> just be sure to drop notes for us irc dwellers
11:39 < andytoshi> sipa: i land 11:03PM. i'm not an american so i think i have to go through customs (but that should be quick, i'm not working and i'm not carrying anything funny)
11:39 < sipa> amiller: ^
11:39 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: are you flying from the US?
11:40 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: yes, from austin. but according to dhs (forget the link sorry) i still have to pass customs
11:40 < amiller> sipa, i'm here, you all still at the other hotel?
11:40 < sipa> amiller: maybe customs, but not immigration
11:40 < sipa> or is that the same?
11:40 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: I don't know how thats physically possible. :)
11:40 < sipa> amiller: we're at the airport hotel
11:40 < andytoshi> sipa: i think it's the same
11:40 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: hmm :) ok, i bet they give me the declaration slip on the plane and just collect it as i'm leaving, no actual interview
11:41 < amiller> hm, not carrying anything suspicious? that's suspcious
11:41 < kanzure> amiller: more specifically, knowing what is and is not suspicious, is itself suspicious
11:41 < sipa> andytoshi: pretty sure it's a domestic flight, and you never left the US
11:41 < andytoshi> sipa: when flying between canada and US, at the customs gate they ask me why i'm travelling etc and demand my school papers..
11:41 < kanzure> that i not domestic
11:41 < kanzure> *is
11:41 < andytoshi> sipa: ...that's correct, but PR is a US territory not a state, so non-US citizens still need to pass through customs
11:41 < sipa> andytoshi: that's because you're entering the US
11:41 < amiller> well im gonna swim and then hopefully see some of you at the reception :)
11:42 < sipa> andytoshi: it definitely was a domestic flight for us, with 0 security after leaving the plane
11:42 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: well what you're saying is incompatible with our expirence (as well as mine coming here last time)
11:42 < sipa> amiller: you're also at the airport hotel?
11:43 < andytoshi> cool sipa, gmaxwell, i'm just going by some webpage my dad found ... i'm sure you guys are correct. (maybe returning will be a different story? i've had them single me out even on domestic flights for passport checks etc since i'm foreign)
11:44 < sipa> there are still security checks for entering the plane
11:44 < sipa> that's orthogonal to customs
11:44 < andytoshi> yes, understood. i fly both domestic and intl routinely...but for territories i thought there was something different
11:46 < sipa> andytoshi: anyway, just be very adamant to security in pointing out that you are absolutely not carrying anything funny
11:47 < kanzure> uh
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11:48 < andytoshi> i'm already through security :)
11:49 < gmaxwell> might want to go back and tell them.
11:49 < andytoshi> hahaha
11:49 < sipa> or at least elaborate on this when leaving the plane
11:49 < gmaxwell> "excuse me! I can assure you that my underware are absolutely not explosive!"
11:49 < gwillen> "wait, come back! I want to tell you about all the bombs I'm not carrying!!"
11:49 < sipa> underware, is that like shareware?
11:50 < gmaxwell> We refer to it as Free Pantaloons.
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11:51 < andytoshi> so, i can walk from the plane to the airport hotel correct?
11:51 < sipa> yes
11:51 < sipa> you do not even have to go outside
11:51 < andytoshi> great
11:51 < sipa> the hotel is literally inside terminal d
11:52 < andytoshi> sipa: do you know what room i should be in (i am with BlueMatt)
11:52 < sipa> BlueMatt is only getting in tomorrow, due to a delayed flight
11:52 < gmaxwell> nah, desk should have the reservation. You can call me when you get in.
11:52 < sipa> "Lest there be any doubt about this, I'd like to point out that I have never been *convicted* for terrorist activities..."
11:53 < andytoshi> cool. i've got the reservation #, should have no trouble
11:53 < sipa> gmaxwell: how about lunch? 4pm seems like a good time.
11:53 < sipa> afterwards we can go find amiller
11:55 < andytoshi> i'm going afk, i take off in 30, should find my gate. see you guys late tonight
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12:01 < stonecoldpat> andytoshi: there are no checks in puerto rico itself you just get baggage and then leave (i was hoping to get a stamp at rico, disappointed!)
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13:09 < sipa> amiller: ping, where are you? ;)
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13:40 < op_mul> gmaxwell: not sure it matters too much unless your device is a trezor. for anything else like a computer I doubt anybody within non-academic real world limitations would be able to get any useful information with that sidechannel.
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13:41 < op_mul> gmaxwell: maybe there's a cause for these things to have batteries or super capacitors in them. you don't remove the effect entirely by doing that, but you make it much much more difficult than a USB powered device.
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14:10 < adam3us> so on bitcoin-dev list there was some discussion of soft-fork ways to make the value signed.
14:11 < adam3us> what about instead making an optional explicit fee output.. that should get the same effect.  maybe u could do that via a special address (eg that everyone knows the private key of)
14:11 < adam3us> old miners would just view it as a tx that got mined with 0 fees
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14:32 < op_mul> I don't see how that would be a soft fork
14:34 < justanotheruser> op_mul: how wouldn't it be?
14:35 < op_mul> never mind. I missed the bit about everybody knows the private key. that sounds like an awful hack.
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15:54 < Luke-Jr> like 3J98t1WpEZ73CNmQviecrnyiWrnqRhWNLy ?
15:55 < op_mul> my god
15:55 < op_mul> why do people keep paying that
15:55 < Luke-Jr> they do? why am I not getting them? :x
15:55 < op_mul> 0.15 BTC got sent there last week.
15:57 < justanotheruser> op_mul: supporting miners?
15:58 < op_mul> supporting whoever can win the spend race
15:58 < justanotheruser> which is miners
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15:58 < op_mul> I doubt they bother.
15:59 < justanotheruser> if their software is optomized that way
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16:18 < kanzure> StealthMonger is a rather curious critter:
16:18 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.privacy.anon-server/6Wi2iYiww4I/M99otqs0PwcJ
16:19 < kanzure> "anonget facilitates browsing the Internet with strong anonymity via url<AT>mixnym.net [1]. Given a list of URLs, anonget encrypts the list and a fresh random key and formats it for mailing by mixmaster [2] to url<AT>mixnym.net through a chain of anonymizing remailers.  The request contains nothing to identify you or your site, and the outgoing mail is indistinguishable from other remailer traffic that you may generate. ...
16:19 < kanzure> ... url<AT>mixnym.net then gets the requested information from the Internet, encrypts it to the fresh key, and broadcasts it worldwide on Usenet newsgroup alt.anonymous.messages. The fresh key (saved by anonget) is used to recognize and decrypt the reply. No one, not even the mixnym.net administrator, is able to link content being fetched with any particular user, or with other requests."
16:20 < op_mul> what is the point of that.
16:21 < kanzure> "Of course, you are taking a full feed of a.a.m at all times without interruption, separating wheat from chaff only after it's all behind closed doors.  Otherwise, the world is informed about which articles you find interesting. Remember, long random latency is part of the price of anonymity.  It can't be done with TOR or any other low-latency method."
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16:31 < kanzure> hmm
16:31 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.anonymous.messages
16:32 < kanzure> "Organization: dizum.com - The Internet Problem Provider"
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16:54 < kanzure> backwards compatible back to python1 https://github.com/mixminion/mixminion/blob/35b33d945afb89a0a7438219c2e89906e0191e61/lib/mixminion/Main.py
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18:05 < kanzure> what happened to http://lists.zooko.com/mailman/listinfo/p2p-hackers
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21:28 < op_mul> oh here's a new one. an altcoin which uses shitty "super secure hashing" for more than just the PoW.
21:30 < op_mul> "Coinshield has upgraded the private keys to a non prime based elliptical curve encryption of 571 bits. This was the largest algorithm that was available, and also not dependent on prime numbers. The reason for this is simple: Coinshield CPU Miners are searching for very large prime numbers, so if any 'discoveries' happen from such actions, it could compromise the whole private key system."
21:30 < op_mul> "The Unified Time System synchronizes your clocks worldwide from an initial time seed. This seed is then propagated through the network, and maintained. Once the seed is held in the network, it can be retrieved from any node making this a Decentralized, Trustless, Clock synchronization method.
21:31 < op_mul> I love how much effort these altcoin people pretend to be expending.
21:35 < gmaxwell> op_mul: go point out that 571 is a prime to them and try to get them to switch to a version that doesn't use a prime!
21:35  * gmaxwell will laugh his ass off if you are successful.
21:35 < sipa> sure it's 571 and npot 521?
21:36 < gmaxwell> sipa: I assume it's over 2^571.
21:36 < sipa> ah, right
21:36 < sipa> the 521-bit one is still modulo a prime
21:36 < gmaxwell> If so it's essential that 571 is prime to the security. otherwise weil descent is possible.
21:37 < sipa> Also impressive that they use encryption!
21:37 < gmaxwell> (also halarious because characteristic-2 is more or less busted in general)
21:38 < gmaxwell> hilarious too
21:38 < sipa> i was wondering what it had to do with funny halal food
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21:38 < kanzure> i was recently informed that andytoshi has like 500 minions and he needs tasks to assign to them
21:39 < kanzure> (cryptography tasks)
21:39 < sipa> i am unaware of said minions, but i'm sure he'd have tasks for the,
21:39 < kanzure> i thought he had like <10 minions but nope
21:39 < op_mul> what type of minions?
21:40 < kanzure> cryptominions
21:41 < gmaxwell> Obviously the first thing to do with many minions is to set them in action fabricating more minions.
21:42 < sipa> hmmm... genetic algorithm?
21:42 < op_mul> mechanical tolerances mean you just wear our your minions making more minions that have increasingly sloppy attributes.
21:42 < op_mul> sure you might have millions of them, but with such low precision that they are useless for any given task.
21:43 < kanzure> he was seeking a set of samples of crypto mistakes (ideally, algebraic) to give them, and ideally bitcoin-related to catch their interest
21:43 < sipa> op_mul: i believe there was a book about the mythical minion month
21:43 < kanzure> anywho, i am entering sleepmode but will reply through lucid dream interface shortly
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21:45 < gmaxwell> oh interesting.
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21:46 < sipa> ?
21:46 < op_mul> you know an altcoin is going to be a good read when it's given objective is "51% attack proof".
21:48 < justanotheruser> op_mul: I disagree. It's always no reorgs or central authority.
21:49 < kanzure> by "good read" satoshi means "funny"
21:49 < justanotheruser> yes, but it isn't amusing anymore. it's always the same
21:50 < gmaxwell> well he'll be here in a couple hours. One thing I might suggest is that we've been thinking about having a contest for libsecp256k1 where the goal is to add a plausable bug which the tests pass.  (blocking on me getting some of the remaining out of tree tests merged)
21:50 < op_mul> this one is sort of novel, it adds new ways of losing consensus by having nodes reject blocks which they see as "forked chain"s.
21:51 < justanotheruser> so no reorgs?
21:51 < gmaxwell> yea, no, fun would be implementing ECC involving no primes _at all_ so we could have fun implementing fun cryptographic attacks against it.
21:52 < op_mul> fun would be giving a bunch of wizards a black box STM32 device that signed messages using trezor-crypto and seeing who manages to get the private key out first.
21:53 < jcorgan> setting aside pump and dump, why are so many people so motivated to "fix" bitcoin?
21:53 < sipa> jcorgan: because people mistake difficulty of understanding for wrong
21:54 < sipa> tbh, i have no idea whether i'd even get into bitcoin, if it would discover it now
21:55 < sipa> the bar for entry seems much higher
21:55 < op_mul> jcorgan: excluding the pump and dumps, I think it's because a lot of these things sound simple until you actually look properly into how bitcoin works. told that a mjroty can alter history, most people will come back with "well fix that", without realising it's a core part of the design.
21:55 < jcorgan> i mean, you don't see thousands of variations on TCP/IP
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21:56 < gwillen> jcorgan: thank god most people don't realize you can modify TCP
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21:56 < gwillen> it basically relies on the fact that endpoints do not behave selfishly
21:56 < gwillen> if people realized they could modify their TCP to behave selfishly, it'd all be over
21:56  * op_mul sets their evil bit
21:56 < sipa> wait, what?
21:56 < gwillen> (this isn't exactly true but it's not exactly false either)
21:57 < gwillen> (you can already use UDP selfishly and mostly there's plenty of excess bandwidth so nobody dies)
21:57 < phantomcircuit> to be fair i doubt anybody actually implements tcp/ip only from RFCs
21:57 < gwillen> phantomcircuit: there is a series of semi-standards with various names on TCP tuning
21:57 < gwillen> phantomcircuit: I'm not sure if they are RFC-codified
21:57 < gwillen> but the People Who Do These Things sort of agree on how to do them
21:58 < gwillen> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion-avoidance_algorithm which lists a number of them
21:58 < gwillen> but in general TCP implementations are careful to cooperate with other TCP implementations, and there's no local downside to making your TCP not do that
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21:59 < gwillen> but in general people who are in the position to write TCP implementations are writing them to be run on many thousands of computers so they're incentivized to make them cooperative
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22:00 < sipa> also, i believe the purpose of TCP is cooperation (=communication)
22:00 < op_mul> I don't think any of these "fix bitcoin" altcoins are designed to do anything at all but look pretty for the pump. clearly evidenced by the fact that they are all based on ancient 0.6 bitcoin forks with piles of security issues.
22:00 < sipa> or am i missing something?
22:00 < sipa> op_mul: but missing the fundamental design flaw of 51% attacks is much more important that some stupid DoS attack fixes, right?
22:00 < phantomcircuit> gwillen, i know i was just trying to be clear that tcp is full of weird things like "stack x does y so we do y also"
22:01 < gmaxwell> sipa: you want to communicate with your far end, but other people on your ISP are competition.
22:01 < gwillen> phantomcircuit: oh I believe it
22:01 < sipa> oh, ok
22:01 < gwillen> yes, what gmaxwell said
22:01 < gwillen> or more generally other people sharing any pipe with you along the way
22:01 < gmaxwell> gwillen: there is some balancing, since people have been known to block varrious TCP unfriendly things in the past.
22:01  * gwillen nods
22:01 < op_mul> sipa: ah, but a trivial remote crash nobody backported the fix for isn't a 51% attack. you're trying to distract from the awesomeness of the coin.
22:02 < gmaxwell> (also highly concurrent TCP (parallel connections) is TCP unfriendly; so you don't necessarily have to change any stack code to be abusive to TCP)
22:02 < sipa> ooh, idea!
22:02 < sipa> we should make 8 connections to each peer in bitcoin
22:03 < phantomcircuit> >.>
22:03 < sipa> and then shard the block transfers
22:03 < sipa> parallellism, bitches
22:03 < gmaxwell> octocoin. 8 blocks in a single turn of the round trip time.
22:03 < jcorgan> it's webscale
22:04 < sipa> is there a cloudcoin yet?
22:04 < op_mul> sipa: you're close to an altcoin in which every peer in the network connects to every other peer in the network.
22:04 < sipa> op_mul: sure, my single-node centralizedcoin accomplishes that
22:05 < gmaxwell> op_mul: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=657601.msg10262838#msg10262838
22:06 < op_mul> gmaxwell: <3
22:06 < gmaxwell> op_mul: I think a everyone connects to everyone alternative transport would be pretty interesting for bitcoin; though careful though needs to go into congestion management.
22:06 < gmaxwell> thought*
22:07 < op_mul> I suspect you would run into issues with home routers and that system, I know a lot turn into mush if you try to use bittorrent through them, and that's only maybe 100 connections at most.
22:08 < phantomcircuit> it's gonna be really funny when the constants for sha3 get changed and all their stuff is broken
22:08 < jcorgan> op_mul: yeah, some home routers have very small NAT tables
22:09 < phantomcircuit> jcorgan, which is 99% of the time just poor configuration
22:10 < op_mul> my router tells me I have 187 active connections.
22:11 < gmaxwell> op_mul: re: stm32 there was a mystery hunt puzzle (in 2012 I think?) where each team got a microcontroller that you had to talk to to solve a puzzle. I think every team tried timing attacking it right away.
22:12 < phantomcircuit> did it work?
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22:13 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not that I'm aware of. the initial steps were timing attack immune, the later parts were not but I don't think anyone tried twice.
22:14 < op_mul> gmaxwell: sadly from what I've read pretty much all the readout protection on the STM32 series is broken
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22:18 < gmaxwell> op_mul: in any case what you want the dohicky to do is to sign a message... whatever is sent in,  in order to prove it contains a private key of interest.
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22:25  * op_mul sighs
22:25 < op_mul> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2smjls/how_can_you_be_sure_any_ecdsa_generated_wallet/cnqw8es?context=2
22:25 < gwillen> gmaxwell: it was 2012, yeah. I am told it was not immune and that we could have attacked it successfully if we'd tried harder
22:25 < gwillen> gmaxwell: instead of, you know, trying to solve the puzzle, which is what we did instead
22:26 < gwillen> also, I hear it did not have the code protect bit set, although I find that bizzarre and I hope whoever told me that was wrong
22:26 < op_mul> why is it even the people making hardware wallets don't understand EC sidechannels ;_;
22:29 < op_mul> that's not even quite the right term for it. but RFC6979 signatures can absolutely leak private information, as nobody but the signer are able to verify that RFC6979 is being followed at all.
22:29 < gmaxwell> op_mul: correct.
22:32 < gmaxwell> it's magical thinking, I guess.. just assuming attackers follow the rules too.
22:32 < gmaxwell> I guess I should publish a demo?
22:33 < op_mul> might be best not to publish actual source code, but I guess.
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22:34 < gmaxwell> I've already done the no-sourcecode version.
22:34 < gmaxwell> (long enough now that my code is all rotten and won't apply to anything useful)
22:34 < jcorgan> it is indeed difficult.  many engineers are so used to optimizing systems with passive entities that it becomes difficult to think about how active entities (agents with motivation) affect systems
22:36 < gmaxwell> see also thread on bct where people are babbling about adding 'hashes' to protect your local utxo set against an attacker who can freely modify your files on disk.
22:37 < op_mul> jcorgan: it's something you want to have already thought about if you are designing and selling a hardware wallet though. it's like the first thing when I thought of when I was conceptualising a hardware MITM for the trezor.
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22:38 < gmaxwell> I think some people just think that attackers are always the people from math word problems that seem to always have 27 mellons and two trains approaching at 15 miles per hour, while one of their legs is tied to a pendulum.
22:38 < op_mul> the MITM intercepts the message to be signed and the master pubkey from the wire, does a timing attack on the signature to recover the privkey, uses the privkey + MPK to recover the master private key, then alters the return signature to leak the master private key.
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22:40 < jcorgan> gmaxwell: your math word problem memories from your youth are rather different from mine :)
22:40 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I think the trezor in particular expects people to act in certain ways. when you use their web interface with the trezor, it asks you things like to check if the address displayed <here> matches the one showed on the device. almost security theater, though I don't know if it is intentional or not.
22:41 < op_mul> (obviously if there was malware on the computer targeting thr trezor it would be able to alter both instances of the address being changed, making the whole thing a totally pointless task)
22:42 < gmaxwell> well security is hard, and making an effort is usually a good thing to do.
22:43 < op_mul> you do risk burning user's good will though. for example the trezor's bootloader is burnt into the device. if the stack overflow bug hadn't been caught before they did a big production run, you'd have had piles of worthless trezors in people's hands.
22:45 < op_mul> hm, that bug might have been a firmware issue which would make my statement there incorrect.
22:46 < op_mul> yeah. the code execution bug was firmware not bootloader, I retract that.
22:46 < p15> how do you know your trezor hasn't been package intercepted and replaced with an evil trezor
22:47 < op_mul> oh you don't at all.
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22:48 < p15> if trezor could sign multi sig transactions maybe it wouldn't matter so much since they'd need to get you two ways
22:49 < jcorgan> never trust silicon you didn't purify, etch, and package yourself :)
22:50 < op_mul> jcorgan: won't hold my breath for a local hackerspace with a 110nm fab.
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22:52 < op_mul> gmaxwell: that UTXO thread is like, the least interesting thing someone could do if they compromised lots of miners.
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23:30 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, i wonder what the most modern process you could do with raw silicon would be
23:33 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: duno. they used to have trouble even on the huge process nodes to begin with. the yeilds were like. zero if I remember rightly.
23:36 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, i wonder if you could get equipment to do something like
23:36 < phantomcircuit> 1000 nm process
23:36 < phantomcircuit> at some not insane price
23:37 < jcorgan> i'd guess that it would be more cost effective to 3D-print organic semiconductors
23:37 < op_mul> knowing old hardware like that you can probably get it on ebay mislabeled as a bench mixer.
23:40 < jcorgan> some random blog post from 2013: http://www.chipestimate.com/blogs/IPInsider/?p=1503
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23:42 < phantomcircuit> maybe
23:42 < phantomcircuit> mostly interested in whether you could strongly control the supply chain
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--- Log closed Mon Jan 26 00:00:35 2015