--- Log opened Mon Jan 26 00:00:35 2015 00:01 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:06 < andytoshi> hi guys, i'm afraid my minions are actually undergraduate crypto students, there are only like 100 of them, and most of them likely can't code at all 00:06 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.69] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 00:06 < andytoshi> and they will need to be tricked, since they think i am their TA, not their master.. 00:07 < phantomcircuit> heh 00:09 < andytoshi> i can assign them bitcoin stuff but it has to be related to the class .. unfortunately that excludes all consensus stuff as well as ECDSA (which is academically boring since it has no analytic results accessible to undergrads). also i can't assume they are good programmers 00:11 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:13 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16 -!- bepo_ [~bepo@fer68-1-78-229-8-199.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 < op_mul> andytoshi: asking your students to reproduce might be a bit too far, too. 00:18 -!- bepo [~bepo@fer68-1-78-229-8-151.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:21 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 -!- weex [~weex@fsf/member/weex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:24 -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.174.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33 -!- benten [~benten@unaffiliated/benten] has quit [Quit: ...] 00:36 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 00:38 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:42 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:42 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 00:42 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- bepo [bepo@fer68-1-78-229-8-151.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57 -!- bepo_ [~bepo@fer68-1-78-229-8-199.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:01 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:04 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:10 -!- koshii_ [~0@ppp-58-11-224-136.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:11 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-171-96-9-6.revip8.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:16 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:20 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:28 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 01:30 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@14.150.broadband14.iol.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@14.150.broadband14.iol.cz] has quit [Changing host] 01:30 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:33 -!- pavel_ [~paveljani@14.150.broadband14.iol.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:33 -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc 01:34 -!- pavel_ [~paveljani@14.150.broadband14.iol.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:38 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@14.150.broadband14.iol.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@14.150.broadband14.iol.cz] has quit [Changing host] 01:38 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- Tjopper1 [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:48 -!- jtimon [~quassel@63.pool85-53-128.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:59 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:04 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 02:06 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:07 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:25 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@78-94-129.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:26 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@78-94-129.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:47 < op_mul> hahahaha 02:48 < op_mul> so ethereum is asking for people to find consensus bugs, and they'll pay a bounty. but only if you give up your real name a proof of identity. 02:48 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:49 < moa> ummm, because a real name is an important bug validation indicator? 02:50 < op_mul> me nods 02:52 < wumpus> hmm, not a good idea to put too much requirements on people submitting bugs 02:52 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:53 < moa> op_mul: i guess ethereum don't want satoshi debugging ... 02:55 < Luke-Jr> maybe the bounty amount has tax reporting obligations? 02:55 < cbeams> Luke-Jr: yes: https://bounty.ethdev.com/ search: "How are bounties paid out?" 02:55 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 < op_mul> Luke-Jr: seems funny for them to stop trying to get around the law at this stage of the game. 02:56 < moa> sounds suitably arcane for ethereum 02:59 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:04 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:08 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Client Quit] 03:12 -!- adam3us [~Adium@adsl-173-228-226-57.prtc.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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#bitcoin-wizards 03:49 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:53 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:56 -!- zooko [~user@adsl-72-50-85-115.prtc.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:09 -!- zooko [~user@adsl-72-50-85-115.prtc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:14 < kanzure> op_mul: you don't need a 110nm fab. you can get very far with 50-100 micron resolution. 04:15 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: here are my notes on such a scheme http://diyhpl.us/wiki/homecmos 04:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-40-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:19 -!- adam3us [~Adium@adsl-173-228-226-57.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:28 -!- siraj [~siraj@116.202.89.227] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 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joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- orik [~orik@75.149.169.53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, they should write the bug bounty program as an ethereum contract of course! 10:58 < phantomcircuit> oh right you cant do that 10:58 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, interesting 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 < pigeons> yeah at tleast they aren't paying out in ETH 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has quit [Changing host] 10:58 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 -!- orik [~orik@75.149.169.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:59 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, "type words and put them here" 10:59 < phantomcircuit> heh 11:02 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04 < kanzure> i think that's my job description, even 11:04 -!- d1ggy_ 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[~hashtagg_@69.23.213.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: apple] 13:01 -!- grandmaster [dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 < instagibbs> oh hey they are paying out for solutions to "51% and other X% attacks." so if you guys have been holding out until now feel free 13:03 < op_mul> instagibbs: oh drat. I've got one sitting right here but they want a copy of my ID. oh well. 13:03 -!- koshii_ [~0@ppp-58-11-224-136.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:05 < kanzure> is that a part of their bug bounty program? 13:05 < kanzure> also, someone should suggest proof of work 13:05 < instagibbs> yes just search for that phrase 13:05 < instagibbs> i know 13:05 < instagibbs> i want to troll them o nthe PoS 13:05 < instagibbs> but I'd have to sign up... 13:05 < kanzure> since when is it okay to demand solutions. it's their cryptosystem, not mine. i just break things. 13:06 < kanzure> welp, at least there's an official statement on the matter though ("we know it's broken and we're actively soliciting solutions") 13:07 < instagibbs> ok didn't want to continue a jerk, just found that snippet funny heh 13:07 < op_mul> I thought vitalik fixed PoS? 13:07 < instagibbs> someone please send me solution to 51% attack I'll give you some NXT 13:08 < adam3us> op_mul: i think the fixes dont quite work. 13:08 < kanzure> adam3us: op_mul is joking 13:08 < instagibbs> adam3us: a bit of understatement ;D 13:08 < adam3us> instagibbs: ah failed irony detector :) ok 13:10 < instagibbs> Proof of Blockchain.info is how I phrase the solution after thinking about it like 10 minutes 13:11 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12 -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jofwocgsrtimgjsy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12 -!- Muis [sid26074@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kavvoeqmuvvybxlp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12 -!- artifexd [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-clzakdphbirbdtql] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12 -!- CryptOprah [sid32688@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jhiyagrsjurqqrpe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12 -!- dasource [uid48409@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bjporprsiljzdefd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:17 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 13:25 < instagibbs> a little hard to care further when consensus failure is simply shrugged at by those dealing out bug bounties. 13:25 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:27 -!- adam3us [~Adium@65.38.210.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:28 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Changing host] 13:28 -!- Emcy 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The attack was first published in 2002 by researchers Nicolas Courtois and Josef Pieprzyk." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XSL_attack 16:34 < nsh> the less-satirical literature around the subject is pretty interesting too 16:35 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:38 < op_mul> an interesting side effect of people writing their own wallets is that cryptanalysis of ECDSA is likey less effective than attacking bitcoin through RC4. 16:41 < op_mul> there's something weird about the fact that our total security is resting on top of a stream cipher that's been known to be weak since the 90s. 16:43 -!- orik [~orik@75.149.169.53] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:44 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47 < nsh> since the 80s if you work at the NSA 16:49 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 16:49 < op_mul> regardless it's still weird that anybody would knowingly base their new cryptosystem on RC4. 16:51 < nsh> how does wallet security depend on RC4? communication with bitcoind? 16:51 * rusty wants to know too... 16:52 < op_mul> no, almost all transactions today are made with a library called "bitcoinjs" which uses RC4 as it's PRNG. even in the situations where the browser has a CS PRNG, it gets fed through RC4 before being used. 16:52 < op_mul> s/almost all/almost all transactions not made with bitcoind/ 16:56 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7555:a2d7:cfb7:46a3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57 < op_mul> it also makes some other small mistakes, like using a 32 bit initialization vector for AES. hardly end of the world stuff, but it makes you wonder how much review any of this stuff has had. 16:57 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:59 < rusty> op_mul: Hmm if browser doesn't provide CSPRNG then crypto in it seems like a bad idea. 16:59 -!- dasource [uid48409@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gsrzqvjwvjxjjgxz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:59 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:00 < op_mul> rusty: people have been told this, I promise you. websites like blockchain.info still don't hard fail and simply just use Math.random() silently. 17:00 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01 < rusty> op_mul: they'd be better relying on the server for seed, at least that reduces the opportunity for theft to a smaller subset of the population. 17:01 < antgreen> jgarzik: you may have noticed that I'm going to a local bitcoin dev meetup Feb 19, and volunteered to speak for 10-15min about moxie/moxiebox. I'm really there to learn, and don't claim to completely understand if/how moxie may be used by bitcoin in the future, but if you have anything more to share by the 19th, be sure to let me know! 17:02 < op_mul> rusty: their security model is 0% trust in the service using client side javascript loaded from a remote server. you can't go doing that! 17:02 < op_mul> rusty: (they do, anyway) 17:04 < rusty> op_mul: I agree they should be hard failing, but marketing >> technology I guess. 17:05 -!- RoboTed__ [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:3d2c:133a:f95b:11b7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06 < op_mul> rusty: this is the company that edited their RNG software, made a copy and paste error making it's output have 8 bits of entropy, and then pushed the change straight into production. dripping with incompetence, and oddly not the first time they've broken their RC4 PRNG and lost money doing it. 17:07 < rusty> op_mul: Oh, I didn't know about that one.... 17:07 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7555:a2d7:cfb7:46a3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:08 < op_mul> type error, they didn't initialise an array so the "entropy pool" was exactly one integer wide. 17:12 < rusty> op_mul: That's an easy error to make though, and cursory testing won't reveal it. But you'd hope they'd be a bit more paranoid... 17:13 < op_mul> ಠ_ಠ 17:13 < op_mul> solution is not hiring monkeys. 17:13 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13 < rusty> op_mul: but, hey, it's not their money! 17:13 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:14 < op_mul> the story is funnier than that. so they lost 900 BTC. and then the person that stole the money returned it. and then to "verify" people were stolen from and return the money, blockchain.info emailed the affected users and asked them to send in their wallet ID and password in cleartext. 17:16 < op_mul> but the point is more that you shouldn't be making cryptographic changes in production and with no oversight. take a leaf out of NASAs book or something, justify every single line. 17:16 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:18 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 * nsh takes a leaf out of NASA's book 17:20 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:22 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:23 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:23 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 17:25 < op_mul> and also stop using RC4. 17:25 -!- op_mul [~op_mul@128.199.38.22] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:37 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:37 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:47 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 17:51 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:53 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:05 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, did hashfast every pay creditors anything? 18:27 -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:30 -!- PRab_ [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0/20150108202552]] 18:30 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:31 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:43 -!- Guest88134 [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:46 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:47 -!- user7779_ [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-lvgdqqeqrketzemi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:49 -!- Pan0ram1x [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:49 -!- Pan0ram1x is now known as Guest16027 18:50 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:55 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01 -!- adam3us [~Adium@adsl-173-228-226-57.prtc.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:01 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I certantly got nothing. 19:03 < phantomcircuit> i wonder what their bom cost is for a board w/o psu 19:03 < phantomcircuit> downclocked without the liquid cooling nonsense 19:03 < phantomcircuit> actually even downclocked it's still a 400W chip 19:04 < phantomcircuit> er no it's a 100W chip 19:04 < phantomcircuit> i bet they actually do have tons of chips and nobody who wants them 19:06 < tacotime__> they dumped most of the rest of their chips, all they had at the end was their IP pretty much 19:07 < tacotime__> there were some aftermarket boards coming out for a bit. i still get mail from their lawyers. worst investment of my life. 19:08 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 19:09 < gmaxwell> cluestick solicitced: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=937058.0 19:11 < justanotheruser> Can truthcoin work? It seems that the cost of keeping a price feeder honest is something no one wants to bear. Be it a small or large contract/bet, people will gravitate towards blockchains where the price feeds are subsidized by them the least leading to very little incentive for the feeds to stay honest. 19:12 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:16 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:18 < jcorgan> gmaxwell: the paranoia runs deep there 19:18 < phantomcircuit> tacotime__, i wonder if they sold all of the chips or if they really did just dump them? 19:18 -!- instagibbs [6c1c1eb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.28.30.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:19 < sipa> jcorgan: it's a very legitimate concern 19:19 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: it's a reasonable thing to ask, also not hard to answer; juts better if other clueful people respond. 19:19 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:19 < instagibbs> justanotheruser: a little rusty on the truthcoins mechanisms. Could you give a pointer? Thought they were doing SVD or something 19:20 -!- Imposter [uid57046@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ywgzmvyyqwiukbnc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:20 < jcorgan> there are ways to ask about the legitimate concern that don't employ words like "enemy", "NSA-type organizations", and "infiltrate" 19:21 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:22 < justanotheruser> instagibbs: SVD on the vote matrix 19:22 < gmaxwell> some people were raised by wolves, some raised by conspiracy theorists. 19:22 < justanotheruser> I'm asking about incentives to have a good vote matrix 19:22 < instagibbs> justanotheruser: right 19:22 < instagibbs> ah 19:22 < instagibbs> who knows 19:22 < instagibbs> that's obviously the best question to ask 19:23 < instagibbs> they are attempting a sort of split of responsibilities, but why wouldn't having a really large stake just let them punish people who vote against them 19:23 < justanotheruser> I don't know why I said price feeds 19:23 < justanotheruser> Mixing up bitshares terminology 19:24 < instagibbs> yeah I mean it's an interesting experiment. I really like the composable bet structure 19:24 < instagibbs> something I'd probably lose tons of time and money on :D 19:25 < justanotheruser> another thing is delegates only have so much bandwidth. One set of delegates can only be price feeds for a few things. 19:26 < justanotheruser> I'm guessing that means the incentive can't get massive 19:27 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:29 < instagibbs> issue is if some malicious actor gets 100% of any particular bet, they can clean house. I'll have to re-read their stuff; too rusty on specifics 19:30 < instagibbs> err 100% of the staking or whatever 19:32 -!- siraj [~siraj@116.202.241.221] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:32 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:33 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 19:34 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:36 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37 < justanotheruser> instagibbs: I don't think the matrices will be defined such that you will even need 100% 19:38 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:43 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@116.202.241.221] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:47 -!- siraj [~siraj@116.202.241.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:49 -!- wiz [~sid1@d06f3063.wiz.network] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:56 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-58-11-224-136.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03 -!- Imposter is now known as imposter 20:04 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-tknpumnykgcowaqq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-fiklmtpviaxnofij] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:10 -!- Adlai` [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:12 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:26 -!- siraj [~siraj@116.202.241.221] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:26 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@116.202.241.221] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 20:34 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:38 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:41 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44 -!- koshii [~0@node-pau.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:50 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:52 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:59 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@69.23.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:00 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:04 -!- koshii [~0@node-pau.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06 -!- roidster [~chatzilla@96-41-48-194.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:13 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:15 -!- Adlai` [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:22 -!- Adlai` [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:24 -!- roidster [~chatzilla@96-41-48-194.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [SeaMonkey 2.22.1/20131113180422]] 21:37 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:38 -!- siraj [~siraj@116.202.241.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:41 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 21:45 -!- Sub|afk [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:48 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:49 -!- wiz [~sid1@d06f3063.wiz.network] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:53 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7555:a2d7:cfb7:46a3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:55 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@199-188-193-172.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56 -!- NeueWelt [~NeueWelt@85-218-26-243.dclient.lsne.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:57 < Taek> instagibbs, justanotheruser: currently you could clean house with 51% I think. There were plans to raise it to 70% or something, but that has it's own tradeoffs (70% to clean house, 30% to stall everything) 21:58 < Taek> But, if you chose to clean house, everyone will know because the votes will obviously be a lie 21:58 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-92.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:58 < Taek> that means that the entire voting pool's value will drop to 0 and nobody will ever use it again 21:58 < Taek> being a part of a voting pool is profitable 21:58 < Taek> Truthcoin attempts to defend against this attack by making it more profitable to be a long term successful pool than to clean house one time 21:59 < Taek> Even if you could clean house, you wouldn't want to b/c you'd make more money just by sitting on your giant portion and voting honestly for a few months 22:01 -!- coiner [~linker@42.119.112.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06 -!- koshii [~0@node-lcf.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:07 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:28 -!- NeueWelt [~NeueWelt@85-218-26-243.dclient.lsne.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:32 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:32 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Changing host] 22:32 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:34 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:38 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@13.173-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:39 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:41 -!- koshii [~0@node-lcf.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:41 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:41 -!- Guest84733 [~guest@5ED11658.cm-7-2a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:41 -!- koshii [~0@node-sal.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:943b:5da6:c3ba:463a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@unaffiliated/br4n] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 22:42 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@69.85.87.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:43 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.249.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:45 -!- Starduster_ [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:45 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:47 -!- execut3 [~shesek@77.125.97.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:02 -!- Guest84733 [~guest@5ED11658.cm-7-2a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 23:04 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:05 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:22 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@c-50-184-187-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:27 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:30 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@13.173-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:31 -!- koshii [~0@node-sal.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:38 -!- user7779_ [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-lvgdqqeqrketzemi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@c-50-184-187-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@c-50-184-187-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:47 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:50 -!- siraj [~siraj@180.215.137.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:50 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@c-50-184-187-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:53 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:56 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 23:57 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-92.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:58 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:59 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] --- Log closed Tue Jan 27 00:00:36 2015