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12:44 < kanzure> "Whenever one objection to scaling is shown to be solvable they just invent more, almost like a stalling tactic."
12:44 < kanzure> almost like security-critical changes shouldn't be rushed
12:46 < fluffypony> c'mon kanzure, "we'll fix it in production"
12:47 < kanzure> ah
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13:52 < amiller> our systemization of knowledge paper was accepted to the Oakland conference IEEE S&P
13:52 < amiller> here's a working draft of it. http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/BMCNKF15-IEEESP-bitcoin.pdf
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13:55 < amiller> im obviously interested if y'all have feedback, we kind of hope it becomes the go-to bitcoin survey paper for the next several years
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14:37 < kanzure> amiller: "the developer mailing list, and logged IRC discussions" may be important to highlight the importance of github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
14:41 < amiller> thanks good point
14:42 < amiller> that's where bips live now for one thing
14:43 < kanzure> amiller: i think it would also be useful to emphasize that originally all knowledge of bitcoin not contained in the white paper was extracted by reading the source code and active experimentation. this is not normal in other fields of endeavor, so it needs to be highlighted somehow, even if only by a mention of a source code repo's existence.
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14:44 < kanzure> oh, "reference implementation" is sort of close to saying that.
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14:46 < kanzure> "The state of the world in Bitcoin is represented by a series of messages called transactions" not quite... how about something like: "The state of the world is based on the set of user-created valid transactions, although the world state is not obligated to contain the complete set (example: unrelayed transactions are trivially absent)" (okay, this is extremely pedantic of me, so no worries if you skip this)
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14:48 < kanzure> "Each output also has a short code snippet in a special scripting language called the scriptPubKey" (the special scripting language is not called scriptPubKey)
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14:50 < amiller> thanks, keep going... pedantic or not these are good points :p
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14:51 < kanzure> what? "transactions are only valid if they satisfy the fundamental constraint that the sum of the values of all transaction outputs is less than or equal to the sum of the values of all inputs" feeeeeeees
14:52 < amiller> we said less than or equall.... if equal then no fees, if less then fees
14:52 < amiller> feeeees
14:52 < kanzure> oh you did say this
14:52 < kanzure> this is true
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14:56 < kanzure> formatting:"Block confirmation.The"
14:57 < kanzure> the use of the word permanance in a few places is a little strange.. if this is clarified later then nevermind.
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15:01 < kanzure> "and is scheduled to have every 40 years"
15:01 < kanzure> "may have been unanticipated" farms were descried by satoshi in some email, but w/e
15:02 < kanzure> typo "(proabilisitically)"
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15:05 < amiller> yeah the 40 years thing ive caught before and dont know how it keeps happening
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15:13 < kanzure> amiller: regarding the fork discussed in the "Stability of transaction rules" section, the source of the problem was that pre-0.8 clients non-deterministically accepted/rejected those blocks. see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cngju7f
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15:20 < kanzure> *permanence
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15:24 < kanzure> "the need for rule changes (or disambiguation) means some level of governance" eh, i would accept maybe "local node-level governance" here, although not much else
15:25 < kanzure> although it's true that bitcoind is a popular and widely used implementation, i don't think that means it's "governance"
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15:26 < kanzure> "have high confidence that they transactions are permanently included" again this permanence thing is weird and alien to me here, but whatever... i'm prolly the only one complaining, and an alternative wording is hard to justify as anything other than "confusing and unfortunate"...
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15:28 < kanzure> "Correctness. All blocks in the longest valid chain will be correct according to the rules of Bitcoin." i think a stronger statement is required here, specifically one regarding whether or not a rule is a valid "Bitcoin rule" -- and your formulation should most definitely not be about "governance" -_-
15:29 < kanzure> "With billions of dollars now at stake, it is not sufficient to assume that participants will always follow the protocol as specified out of goodwill or inertia." one could argue this is also true of any amount of money, including millions, and not just billions....
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15:33 < kanzure> i forget ubt i'm pretty sure this isn't there "In practice, arbitrary-length forks are prevented by the use of hard-coded blockchain prefixes shipping with the default Bitcoin client before which clients will not accept a fork."
15:33 < kanzure> (although there was a feature called a checkpoint that was implemented at one point in the past, it has since been thoroughly misunderstood in practice)
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15:34 < gmaxwell> dunno how useful this is when we have concrete plans to eliminate it due to those misunderstandings.
15:35 < gmaxwell> That also doesn't reflect the motivation there; not to prevent reorgs but to prevent some specific DOS attacks.
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15:39 < kanzure> re: "governance", the one governance thing that i would allow for is something about control of the alert key or whatever
15:40 < kanzure> that is definitely "governance", but hte other stuff is bogus
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15:54 < kanzure> regarding denial of service attacks between pools, it would be useful to clarify whether these are denial of service attacks from pool participants directly or indirectly (or both or unspecified)
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16:04 < kanzure> "although some systems (such as Ripple) are completely independent designs" with independent and different, sometimes entirely unrelated goals
16:05 < kanzure> "This approach is now viewed suspiciously by the cryptocurrency community due to a wave of altcoins allegedly launched by founders hoping to cash in through early mining."
16:05 < kanzure> specifically, the concern tends to be that the blocks were mined prior to launch
16:05 < kanzure> (which does not seem to be mentioned here...)
16:07 < kanzure> "This would function like a hard fork, but with no claim that the new system is the legitimate Bitcoin system. Interestingly, this approach seems not to have been attempted seriously." see also my comments in response to http://sfultong.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-stupidity-of-blockchain.html but realistically people probably realize that individuals will just sell and exchange for bitcoin as soon as possible.
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16:15 < kanzure> amiller: also, the coverage of asic-resistance seems to completely ignores the arguments against asic-resistance as desirable.
16:15 < kanzure> or er, undesirable.. negation is hard.
16:16 < kanzure> "proposed a puzzle with a puzzle incorporating" redundant redundancy
16:18 < kanzure> "the folklore arguments suggesting that consuming external resources (i.e., burning energy) is necessary for blockchain security" that's nice, but a little awkward to be inserted in the middle of a section about proof-of-stake?
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16:23 < kanzure> i mean, it has broader applicability
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16:29 < nsh> consuming external resources is definitely necessary for bitcoin security :)
16:29 < nsh> let's not equivocate on thermodynamics already
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16:34 < instagibbs> kanzure: or the mining algorithm is obfuscated for hidden optimizations
16:34 < kanzure> er.. i thought this wasn't true anymore? "Second, nodes (by default) store every transaction in history on disk"
16:35 < instagibbs> I'll make sure to go through the doc tonight and give feedback
16:36 < sipa> kanzure: is this about bitcoin core?
16:36 < instagibbs> the (default) seems to point as such
16:36 < sipa> in that case, yes
16:36 < sipa> pruning isn't merged yet
16:37 < instagibbs> 0.11 *knock on wood*
16:37 < kanzure> oh hm
16:39 < tromp__> amiller: please refer to the BITCOIN2015 version of my paper and note the small change in title
16:39 < amiller> tromp__, okay
16:40 < tromp__> and i'd remove the hyphen in cuckoo-cycle, and capitalize it:)
16:41 < tromp__> in part B of section V
16:41 < kanzure> amiller: alright, that's all the complaints i have from my first pass through your paper..
16:43 < instagibbs> is there a good place to find more in-depth history on why these digital cash schemes failed previously? If distributed consensus is somehow secret sauce that implies bank failure, regulation, etc
16:45 < kanzure> instagibbs: http://cryptome.org/jya/digicrash.htm
16:45 < kanzure> ("How digicash blew everything")
16:45 < nsh> -you'll never BELIEVE step 3!!
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17:07 < SubCreative> <3
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20:38 < instagibbs_> kanzure: interesting expose. It appears nearly all the patents have run out; would be interesting to see if any come of use
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22:42 < fluffypony> nsh: number 8 will SHOCK YOU!
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 11 00:00:51 2015