--- Log opened Thu Feb 26 00:00:05 2015
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11:28 < bramc> The bitcoin foundation is sounding an awful lot like the FSF or the xcode foundation
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11:33 < bramc> As in, organizations which their intended recipients might be better off without.
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11:36 < Luke-Jr> bramc: eh, FSF does good work?
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11:36 < bramc> Luke-Jr, I don't know if they've turned around in the last 10 years, but at one point they stopped funding software because nobody wanted their money any more because they were impossible to deal with. Also the GPLv3 thing is... misguided.
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11:37 < Luke-Jr> bramc: I don't see why people hate the GPLv3. it seems good to me.
11:37 < Luke-Jr> clarifies some important matters people confused in the GPLv2 and addresses patent abuse problems
11:38 < bramc> Luke-Jr, The short of it is that in practice it's way too much of a poison pill. Although that subject is rather off topic for here. In practice the gplv2 is a horrible poison pill as well, and so is the lgpl if you actually read the fine print and try to be compliant
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11:39  * Luke-Jr has had no issues with the AGPLv3 for Eloipool.
11:39 < Luke-Jr> it's often a necessary "poison pill" as long as others don't play nice.
11:40 < bramc> The gplv3 in practice achieves nothing because it's such a poison pill that nobody uses it
11:40 < Luke-Jr> (lots of people do)
11:41 < Luke-Jr> GPLv3 recently came in handy when Google/Nest decided to claim the GPLv2 doesn't apply to their "smart" thermostats
11:41 < bramc> Let me clarify: I don't think I've ever heard of a single time when a business used gplv3 software. And most of them won't touch gplv2 except for certain very specific cases like linux and python (which is dual licensed anyway)
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11:43 < bramc> But my original point was about the bitcoin foundation, and from what I'm reading now the comparison is unfair to the fsf, because they may be unpleasant and misguided, but they aren't overtly criminal and grotesguely incompetent.
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11:44 < Luke-Jr> bramc: community is more important than businesses who hate free software. I probably wouldn't buy their products anyway. Nest used GPLv3 monit, so I was able to get source out of them using it, and I am pleased with that result.
11:44 < Luke-Jr> yes, we can get back to BCF :p
11:45 < bramc> Most big free software projects have most of their development done by people who are paid to do so as part of their jobs. Businesses are happy to participate in the community if you let them.
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11:47 < bramc> gmaxwell, The bug in timsort only applies to extremely large arrays
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11:48 < bramc> The people who did the work on it figured out a patch which doesn't produce a measurable degredation in performance and *has a proof of correctness*. The Java people looked at the bug report, rejected the patch and did their own fix which does measurably reduce performance and doesn't have a proof of correctness
11:48 < bramc> *headdesk*
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12:26 < bramc> I'm reading through stuff on microchannels and have some really basic questions
12:27 < kanzure> speak
12:27 < bramc> It seems like the basic concept is that there's a 'channel', which is where I pledge a certain amount of coin which I might want to transfer to a certain counterparty at some time in the future, and then I sort of piecemeal send it to them securely over time
12:27 < kanzure> you give them a transaction that you will later replace
12:28 < bramc> So the first question is, is that correct? And the second question is, if this is done by  cancelling out old transactions, how are the old ones rendered obsolete?
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12:29 < kanzure> i don't know the exact details but if i assume there are no details then the simple answer is never send them a transaction that doesn't spend the original inputs.
12:30 < kanzure> if you want to cancel the transaction another way is to spend those inputs to yourself separately (thus invalidating the transaction you gave them) (the transaction you gave them was not going to be accepted by the network immediately because of some feature i forget the name of)
12:30 < kanzure> probably nLockTime
12:30 < Luke-Jr> bramc: the older ones have a later nLockTime
12:30 < kanzure> cool, "from first principles" wins again. who needs to know things?
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12:33 < kanzure> bramc: imagine a restricted example where the user only has one input. spending the input in the first transaction might pay out only 1% of the amount, and 99% goes back to the spender as change. a second transaction with a smaller nLockTime would still have to spend the same inputs, so the original transaction would be invalid by the time it became possible to submit it and get it accepted on the network. of course, they are welcome ...
12:33 < kanzure> ... to spend that first one rather than the later ones, but then they just earn less money. (again my example was restricted with a single input)
12:33 < bramc> Actually this might all be a silly question, I can give you a transaction handing over a larger amount of my original coin, which I'm not able to deposit because you need to sign it as well
12:34 < bramc> kanzure, so why get nlocktime involved at all? It seems like that's mostly necessary for a refund in the initial coin setup
12:36 < bramc> The main problem seems to be that this requires a huge amount of working capital, and that original nlocktime needs to be far in the future for there to be real performance, which also sucks if my counterparty wanders off because I have to wait to get my coin back
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12:37 < bramc> Basically I'm depositing coin in a bank and the bank is doing transfers with other banks. It should be possible to set up a collaborative simultaneous transfer so that I can securely transfer coin with somebody else who's also using a bank
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12:38 < bramc> Which sounds like a complicated and technical transaction but should be totally doable, I'm trying to figure out the high level things right now.
12:38 < kanzure> whoops yes i forgot about the signed refund transaction
12:39 < bramc> From some stuff at the talk the other day I think he doesn't actually have that simultaneous transfer integration stuff worked out. Maybe I should do that.
12:41 < bramc> But this working capital stuff seems like a serious limitation. Everybody needs at some point to take a pile of real money and exchange it for a pile of coin
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12:42 < bramc> And that needs to have at least one transaction hit the block chain
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12:42 < kanzure> "working capital limitations" is one reason one might want to have not all of their capital in a single utxo
12:44 < bramc> kanzure, Not sure what point you're making
12:45 < bramc> My point is that if I intend to spend $X over the next year, and only incur one set of transaction fees, I need to go plop down $X right now
12:46 < kanzure> why is it a year-long thing?
12:46 < kanzure> iirc people have said for a while now that channels are best used for more real-timey services
12:46 < bramc> I can do a shorter time period, but then that incurs more real transactions on the block chain
12:47 < bramc> There's also something about a new opcode to incur fewer real transactions, something about locking by time since deposited. I have no idea what that's about.
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12:49 < bramc> It seems like it should work for real time stuff, at least in terms of being better than green address, assuming the whole four-way transaction with two counterparties and two banks is worked out.
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12:53 < kanzure> i've been having trouble lately regarding arguments about how many transactions should be on the blockchain or not
12:53 < kanzure> tell me how to decide what the correct amount of transactions for a healthy civilization is. one billion per second? one trillion per second?
12:53 < maaku> kanzure: whatever can be supported without compromising the decentralized nature of the block chain
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12:54 < kanzure> maaku: sure. i just use that rant to go into "batched settlement is good".
12:54 < bramc> The annoying thing is that if I have a transfer going to and from you and we hit the amount pledged on both sides then we have to make another whole new transaction with new pledges to cancel out the old one. Maybe there's something in the microchannel stuff about using nlocktime to do exactly that.
12:54 < Luke-Jr> maaku: well, no need for that if we can do fine with less either :p
12:55 < bramc> kanzure, microchannels are batched settlement, correct? Just secure batched settlement, instead of 'we trust the bank' batched settlement.
12:55 < Luke-Jr> I'd say as few as possible without compromising security in significant ways is ideal.
12:56 < kanzure> well, maybe... i will have to think more about that. batching, in my head, just means taking lots of transactions and simplifying the inputs and outputs to make the overall set smaller.
12:57 < bramc> kanzure, I'm envisioning microchannels as just a way of having secure banks. Maybe this isn't what other people are thinking. I'm pretty sure the talk the other day didn't cover that, which means that a designing a 50-message protocol is likely in my near future.
12:57 < kanzure> just use ISO 20022 or something else that already exists
12:59 < bramc> For transaction rate, let's say that the population of earth is 10 billion people and each does 100 transactions per day, that's a trillion transactions per day, or about 10 million transactions per second
12:59 < Luke-Jr> bramc: did you by chance get to go to Joseph's presentation on Monday?
12:59 < bramc> That's probably high by two orders of magnitude, a 'reasonable' goal is 100 thousand transactions per second
12:59 < bramc> Luke-Jr, yes but I was a few minutes late and it seemed it was impossible to follow all the technical details from the presentation
12:59 < Luke-Jr> >_<
13:00 < bramc> It wasn't organized very well, a high level of what the protocol accomplishes with no technical machinery would have been much more helpful.
13:00 < bramc> I *might* be sent a draft of the paper later today.
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13:01  * Luke-Jr wonders when he plans to publish his paper
13:01 < bramc> He said the paper was going online the next day, but google isn't helping me
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13:01 < bramc> He also said the paper isn't very clear yet.
13:02 < kanzure> i'm not sure that the blockchain needs to handle all transactions in civilization anyway
13:02 < kanzure> and consider all closed book transactions, such as random ledgers from random video games
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13:04 < bramc> I'm *guessing* that a channel is something along the lines of we each pledge an $X coin to each other, and start handing over bits of it over time, every time somebody transfers money to me you give me some of your pledged one, every time I spend some I give you some of my pledged one, and when both are completely spent we obliterate them by making a new pair with a shorter nlocktime
13:05 < bramc> But the work to integrate the transfers with simultaneous transfer seems to be not done yet.
13:07 < bramc> So technical issues, which I believe are, ahem, interesting but entirely doable, the big questions come down to working capital.
13:08 < bramc> Like, I don't imagine a bank would be terribly eager to plop down $X of bitcoin just so I can start transacting, even if I do the same.
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13:14 < kanzure> bramc: have you read https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments
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13:14 < kanzure> and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party
13:16 < bramc> kanzure, was just reading that first one, will look at the second one
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13:27 < Taek> bramc: They are called micropayment channels because they're more useful for small many small payments that sum to a still-small payment.
13:28 < Taek> When you create one, you're locking up some volume of coins which you can *only* send to the receiver for X time
13:29 < Taek> So generally you wouldn't want to do it with something as serious as banking, because if the bank decides to enforce 10% fees or whatever, you're basically stuck waiting until the refund expires.
13:29 < bramc> Going by my own laws of physics calculation, which in this case are really laws of arithmetic, if I want to set up an account with a bank the capital requirements should be that I have to plop down the maximum amount I might go into the hole in the future before my transactions start getting rejected up front, which involves a real transaction on the block chain. Thereafter if people transfer me coin or I send coin it se
13:29 < bramc> ems like it should be possible to not have any transactions on the block chain until my net balance goes below zero or above my initial deposit
13:30 < bramc> So I can get, say, my paycheck sent, which makes something new on the blockchain, and thereafter work with an untrusted bank
13:31 < Taek> Yes, but you're forced to work with your bank. Any time you send money to someone, you'll have to get a signature from your bank
13:31 < bramc> Taek, Yes that's the other issue is that an attacker can force you to wait out the refund time
13:31 < Taek> Such an attack isn't a big deal if it's like $80 and you're waiting 30 days
13:32 < Taek> It's a bigger problem if it's 6 months of income and you're waiting a whole year
13:32 < bramc> Even if it's a whole paycheck a month or two might not be so bad
13:32 < bramc> Compared to how poor people get their paychecks stolen from them in overdraft fees that sort of downside scenario is no big deal
13:32 < Taek> ^ not so bad for software devs. A huge many people live paycheck to paycheck though
13:33 < Taek> The bank would instead just bully them, knowing it has all their money, and enforce a 10% spending fee
13:33 < bramc> Also, banks don't generally disappear and force you to wait a bit to get your money out all that often. They steal hundreds of dollars using overdraft fees and similar bullshit fees all the time
13:33 < Taek> they have no choice b/c they need to eat
13:33 < bramc> Such behavior would cause a severe hit to the bank's reputation
13:34 < Taek> You'd imagine that BS overdraft fees would do the same
13:34 < bramc> overdraft fees can be hidden in the fine print, with a cryptocurrency you're actually defended
13:35 < bramc> But this is all besides my point, I'm talking about the theoretical limits of deposit requirements, which you haven't actually disagreed with so far
13:36 < bramc> The work done so far seems to assume that the bank will make a backwards deposit when you make your  forwards deposit, which to me falls into the category of Things Which Will Not Happen
13:36 < bramc> Also I'm trying to do better than micropayment support, into blockchain scaling, which is what the presentation the other day was about.
13:36 < Taek> A bank would do it if the deposit backwards had some sort of interest rate attatched to it
13:37 < bramc> I think the backwards deposit is a technical problem which should have a purely technical solution.
13:37 < Taek> I think the theoretical limit of micropayment channels is 1 transaction on the blockchain per party per cycle of coins.
13:38 < bramc> I think it's possible to reduce the blockchain transaction to 1 transaction (or some small constant factor on top of that) on the blockchain per return timeout period
13:38 < Taek> even if you spend more than the initial balance/
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13:38 < Taek> *?
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13:39 < bramc> No, you can't spend more than the initial deposit or have sent to you to get a balance greater than the initial deposit without incurring a new blockchain transaction
13:39 < bramc> Although there might be a loophole on that second one
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13:41 < bramc> This still doesn't get anywhere near global scalability, but at least it gets a bunch more orders of magnitude
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13:42 < Taek> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=918018.0
13:42 < Taek> There's also a mailing list thread but I'm not sure how to link to that
13:43 < Taek> I don't fully understand how/if it works
13:43 < bramc> If you assume that there's a billion people using the system and they do one transaction per month, that's about 400 transactions per second, still not feasible
13:43 < kanzure> sourceforge has a web interface to their mailing lists but i hvaen't figured out how to predict the urls
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13:48 < Taek> 400 tps only gets you 1 billion per month? I never made that connection before
13:50 < bramc> Yeah a billion is a lot
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13:53 < Taek> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Velocity_of_M1_Money_Stock_in_the_US.png
13:54 < bramc> Is that then number of times each dollar in circulation is spent per year?
13:54 < Taek> yes
13:54 < Taek> even if you could push it out to 1 transaction per year, people tend to spend money faster than that
13:55 < kanzure> i've been meaning to try to estimate the maximum "trouble" that counterfeitable bills will be in due to exposure to scarce assets like bitcoin
13:56 < kanzure> or er, not maximum, just some approximation
13:56 < Taek> as in, how much value will the US dollar lose if Bitcoin hits a  $1 trillion market cap?
13:56 < kanzure> nope
13:56 < kanzure> counterfeit bills exist because there's no proofs
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14:00 < bramc> Taek, the multiplier can be handled, in principle, by net settlement through intermediaries, which 'micropayment channels' can in principle do, at least I think they can. Calling them 'micropayment channels' is a misnomer at that point of course, they're really off-blockchain net settlement channels
14:01 < bramc> Taek, the US dollar is in no danger from bitcoin
14:01 < bramc> But banks could be in trouble if basic banking functions could be done at lower cost
14:03 < Taek> I was just trying to figure out what kanzure meant by 'counterfeitable bills in trouble'
14:03 < bramc> I think he was being sarcastic, but not sure what the point was
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14:04 < kanzure> uh, no particular point, just something i've been meaning to do/estimate
14:05 < kanzure> some amount of successful counterfeiting seems to occur, so in the presence of a scarce asset i wonder if that becomes more or less important
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14:05 < kanzure> that's all. no particular points.
14:07 < bramc> As long as you can use counterfeit money to get dollars, it will still be valuable
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14:07 < bramc> The most successful counterfeiting it's claimed comes from north korea
14:08 < kanzure> right but dosn't that eventually warp supply
14:08 < kanzure> *doesn't
14:08 < bramc> By the way, those yellow markers for checking if bills are counterfeit totally work
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14:09 < nubbins`> imagine
14:09 < nubbins`> the something constellation
14:09 < bramc> counterfeit bills tend to get taken out of circulation over time, and can only be done at scale big enough to matter if you have a lot of resources but pathetically little money. Hence north korea
14:09 < kanzure> do you happen to know what that scale happens to be roughly?
14:10 < kanzure> $100B/mo? $1T/mo? or is that not noticeable?
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14:12 < nubbins`> ostensibly low enough that the two countries who actually do commerce with NK wouldn't notice/care
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14:13 < bramc> kanzure, the GDP of north korea is about $1 billion/month (holy shit is that low) so if we assume that 1% of it is from counterfeiting that's about $10 million/month
14:13 < kanzure> ah, and $10M/mo is nothing compared to global supply
14:13 < kanzure> alright
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14:14 < Taek> bramc: I don't understand how the multiplier can be managed by 'net settlement intermediaries' without invoking trust for the lower sums of money
14:15 < Taek> If Alice spends about $100/mo and can only float about $100, she's going to need a new transaction every month?
14:16 < Taek> I guess if her employer's got a channel open that's ready to pay her 1yr in a advance, the bank can talk to the employer
14:16 < bramc> Taek, Oh I see what you're saying. It's probably the case that individual consumers only put 1x on the ratio and the rest is between vendors
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14:18 < Taek> This is where my economics fall apart, but wouldn't it be the case that people with less floating cash contribute to the multiplier at a higher rate than people with lots of savings?
14:19 < Taek> I think it's more or less a ratio of 'throughput vs savings'
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14:19 < Taek> (don't hold me accountable to that I'm not actually sure)
14:20 < bramc> Taek, It isn't clear what the practical implications of the ratio are because theres so much 'near money' and it isn't clear what boundaries should be used
14:21 < bramc> I don't remember if the ratio going up is supposed to make the value of money go up or down
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14:25 < bramc> It does seem like a period of a month is about right, and most accounts are going to be one way or the other. Of course that highlights the other problem which is that hardly any commerce is kept within bitcoin today so trying to use net settlement is a little silly
14:25 < bramc> So the whole thing is somewhat aspirational
14:26 < Taek> silly today but it might not be that unreasonable in 5 years
14:26 < Taek> the best think that I can think of for paying Alice w/o adding a txn to the blockchain is creating a payment that's greater than what Alice owns
14:27 < bramc> It may be possible to increase alice's refund, or do something about reducing the refund time.
14:27 < bramc> I'll need to stew on it more.
14:27 < bramc> Also get a copy of that damn paper and read it.
14:28 < Taek> bi-directional payment channels would fix this issue
14:28 < bramc> But bi-directional channels require capital deposits on both sides.
14:29 < bramc> Or maybe a payment to alice could be used as the bank's deposit, or something.
14:30 < Taek> presumably, the size of the channel only limits the maximum possible net flow
14:31 < Taek> Which I guess is still a problem for people looking to save for retirement or something
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14:32 < bramc> It only limits the flow for the one time period until the refund option, but the capital requirements for a bank to potentially transfer to a depositor are a real problem.
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14:39 < Taek> The other problem is centralization. By making these channels you're necessarily reducing the number of parties you can send coins to.
14:40 < Taek> Which hurts decentralization
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14:54 < gmaxwell> Taek: only if the hub cheats you.
14:55 < gmaxwell> (otherwise you just ask it to release some of the funds to whatever destination you want)
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14:57 < Taek> not so bad if the hub is small, but more of a problem if you've got 1 hub controlling 30% of the bitcoin. If hubs become commonplace, I think they'll suffer similar centralization problems to mining
14:57 < Taek> also not a problem if you only use hubs for micropayments
14:57 < gmaxwell> I'm not sure why you believe that, because the design is trustless and payments can cross hubs transitively, you should expect there to be a large number of them.
14:58 < Taek> Hubs take computational resources, they're signing and verifying one signature per transaction, and doing a small volume of network traffic
14:59 < Taek> Inconsequential if you're using hubs to buy coffee, but more of a problem if you're making a payment every time you visit a new page on a website
14:59 < gmaxwell> I think you're not thinking that through. ... it's not like having hundreds of thousands of computers do the same thing is an improvement there over one.
15:00 < gmaxwell> $random_desktop_cpu can do >50k signature verifications per second these days.
15:00 < Taek> hmm
15:01 < Taek> oh. The other problem is that hubs need connections to vendors, or some network of connections to vendors
15:03 < Taek> It's not really reasonable to expect a vendor to set up channels with 2000 different hubs. Instead they're likely to set up connections with the biggest N and call it a day
15:05 < Taek> I guess you could make something like a DHT of hubs.
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15:10 < Taek> So if you have a DHT of hubs, and on average reaching a vendor takes 7 hops, each hub taking X%
15:10 < Taek> you've got room for mega-hub to offer speed savings
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15:11 < Taek> plus, mega-hub might have a nicer, simpler way for websites to add support for mega-hub, while DHT support might involve more elbow grease
15:12 < Taek> I guess I'm grabbing at straws
15:15 < bramc> gmaxwell, I think it's possible to do unlinked transactions across hubs so you don't have to trust them
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15:30 < bramc> I'm pretty sure that you can't get around the problem of a hub having to pledge to send. About the best you can get is that they can require that as much or more be pledged to them at the same time. And of course they can charge a fee.
15:32 < moa> gmaxwell: https://github.com/utxo/wheels/wiki payment channels projects links
15:37 < instagibbs> any extra info on Strawpay? claims to be hub model, not much there
15:38 < moa> no, they said source code is "coming soon"
15:38 < moa> iirc
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15:41 < instagibbs> this and actual Coinshuffle implementations are the 2 things sorely needed imo.
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15:43 < moa> seems there should be market demand for a well-implemented payments channel ...
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15:44 < moa> Greenaddress has some elements but not a full implementation
15:45 < instagibbs> GA.it is essentially what Impulse is, heh
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15:59 < bramc> moa, it isn't clear that there's much meaningful bitcoin commerce going on, hence the lack of demand for better bitcoin payment services
16:00 < moa> chicken and egg?
16:01 < moa> also 'much' is a comaprative term
16:01 < moa> s/comparative
16:01 < instagibbs> it's chicken/egg + tragedy of commons.
16:02 < moa> there is much more than there used to be
16:02 < moa> and much more than before that
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16:16 < Luke-Jr> there's enough that I'm caught off-guard when someone says they don't take bitcoin :p
16:18 < moa> Luke-Jr: do you take bitcoin?
16:18 < instagibbs> No he only mines for Ether
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16:19 < Luke-Jr> instagibbs: couldn't have put it better myself
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19:40 < bramc> My novel proofs of work ideas can be applied to proofs of steak but they don't really work because for each block the challenge has to be met by a piece of stake, and if stake is transferable then it isn't canonical and can be ground on
19:40 < bramc> Time to switch to proofs of lamb chop
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19:41 < bramc> BlueMatt, amiller's paper explaining nonoutsourcability is at http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf
19:41 < bramc> really it should be called outsourcing resistance. Outsourcing can still be done, it relies on the ratio between the cost of storage and the cost of bandwidth for it to be impractical.
19:41 < BlueMatt> mmm
19:42 < bramc> BlueMatt, also the permacoin paper fills in some concrete numbers http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/permacoin.pdf
19:43 < BlueMatt> mmm, i do think i read that one...mustve not had it swapped in at the time
19:43 < bramc> The nonoutsourcing is rather tangential to the permacoin paper
19:46 < bramc> I really should do a blog post on some of my signature and work stuff
19:47 < amiller> i have a new nonoutosurceable paper now, its a little better
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19:59 < moa> proof of slaughter should be good across multiple meaty chains
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21:01 < bramc> Huh, I didn't know about the factor of four rule
21:01 < bramc> Not sure if I think that's a good idea
21:01 < gmaxwell> in retargeting? Hm. Pretty sure I mentioned it before, must have been confusing.
21:02 < gmaxwell> It closes off some pretty straight forward attacks, and has never been hit (nor seems to be likely to be hit) on the production network. Even with that, it still as quartic convergence, which is quite fast.
21:02 < bramc> Intuitively it seems reassuring, but I don't see a strong argument for it being necessary
21:03 < bramc> You mean logarithmic time convergence
21:03 < bramc> It's entirely possible somebody explained it to me and I missed it
21:04 < gmaxwell> Go compute the cost for creating a fantasy network for a peer you've temporarily isolated. (esp if you can keep it isolated for weeks). It also makes the variance attack where you intentionally ramp difficulty as fast as possible and then attempt to get a single lucky roll that eclipses the honest network, much less likely to be successful.
21:07 < bramc> The intuitions behind that all make sense, but I have a feeling that if one slogs through all the calculations the rule doesn't help all that much
21:07 < bramc> Then again, it does no harm, so there's no reason to change it.
21:08 < bramc> although I'm curious enough as to whether it helps that I might slog through all that crap on principle.
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21:10 < gmaxwell> well you might be surprised to find out that an attacker with a constant 1% of the hashpower who continally attempts to replace the chain will be successful with probablity 1; assuming hashrate grows exponentially. The maximum increase greatly reduces the probablity of success in any finite time window for that attack though.
21:11 < gmaxwell> (1% can be any constant percentage. could be 0.001% so long as its a not a falling fraction)
21:11 < bramc> That is surprising.
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21:12 < phantomcircuit> bramc, your odds of success within any reasonable finite time period remain very low
21:12 < phantomcircuit> hmm actually i haven't run the math on that
21:12 < phantomcircuit> do they?
21:12 < gmaxwell> attacker constantly ramps that difficulty in their fork as fast as they can; hoping to get lucky.
21:13 < bramc> gmaxwell, intuitively their EV should remain the same regardless of difficulty
21:14 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they do, but they are _much_ higher, without limits on how fast you can ramp the difficulty.
21:14 < gmaxwell> bramc: it's not the sort of attack that has positive expectation. You'll mine less than if you mined honestly with this strategy in the expectation.
21:15 < bramc> Oh, so it's all about undoing transactions?
21:15 < bramc> Or rather, claiming transactions for yourself, in case transaction rewards are greater than mining rewards?
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21:16 < gmaxwell> Yes. There can still be rewards other than just mining; e.g. from stealing coins ... Or the motiviation can be just setting things on fire, which some people do from time to time if they can.
21:19 < bramc> Did somebody say that Stellar got a spontaneous fork without even an attacker?
21:19 < sipa> yes
21:20 < bramc> Did they fix it? My impression is that Stellar is for all intents and purposes a centralized system.
21:21 < amiller> stellar hired a reputable distributed systems researcher from stanford, they're working on building a legitimate reliable system
21:21 < gmaxwell> They fixed it by centeralizing it completely, which indeed works.
21:22 < amiller> the gossip i heard is that they are going to preserve some kind of dynamic membership, where the graph of 'good' nodes has to have adequate overlap
21:22 < gmaxwell> amiller: he'd been working for them since their public announcement; which was written in weird third party tone to make it sound like he was an independant auditer.
21:23 < bramc> Well, Jed never did send me his whitepaper, probably because he didn't feel like having me shit on it.
21:23 < amiller> bramc, ripple has *a* whitepaper that i believe is true to jed's algroithm, but it sucks
21:23 < bramc> amiller, He told me this after he'd left ripple, but maybe he was talking about the same thing
21:23 < gmaxwell> I'm still a bit torked that I _specifically_ pointed out exactly this failure mode back when ripple was originally announced and even only barely described (as they didn't provide any real documentation basically for years); and they're all happily pretending that this was some huge surprise.
21:24 < gmaxwell> (Amiller also pointed this out)
21:24 < bramc> Although the first time he told me about how it worked I shat on the idea that there were going to be any other servers participating in the consensus building. That was before I knew about bitcoin's loophole in such difficulties.
21:24 < amiller> i told jed on the phone this in like jan 2013
21:25 < amiller> gmaxwell, i think what you are saying is that the stanford prof was on their roster even prior to their forkpocalypse?
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21:27 < gmaxwell> amiller: Yes sir. David Mazières https://web.archive.org/web/20141110135852/https://www.stellar.org/    (archive.org is screwy and won't seem to load the snapshots on the day stellar was made public)
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21:27 < moa> I think stellar has ricardian contracts, so a brighter supernova?
21:28 < gmaxwell> amiller: which is part of why I found this https://www.stellar.org/blog/safety_liveness_and_fault_tolerance_consensus_choice/ to be pretty dishonest sounding.
21:28 < amiller> i don't think that matters, maybe i'm just a sucker for academic social proof... i'm still giving prof mazieres the benefit of the doubt and eagerly awaiting what they come up with next... my speculation is that it's going to be technically sound but 'not-all-that-decentralized'
21:29 < bramc> The web pages which turn up when searching for 'ricardian contracts' read like they were written by marketing droids.
21:29 < gmaxwell> sure, it's not hard to make something sound; thats part of why it was so horrifying what they had before.
21:29 < amiller> circadian contracts
21:29 < moa> good one
21:30  * amiller quits while ahead
21:30 < moa> self-signed circularity
21:31 < gmaxwell> bramc: in any case the thing where the ripple/stellar consensus model is broken is just that that it's a quourom protocol where the participants don't necessarily have identical views of the membership. If you centeralized control of the membership via an external process, it works fine. If you don't you can end up with a topology where multiple orthorgonal majorities can exist, which means doom.
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21:32 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yeah that was obvious to me from the get-go but I didn't think through all the failure modes, just figured that it was a huge pain to do it in a way which worked
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21:33 < bramc> It should be possible to throw in some voting about who to let into the group of voters and the like, which has obvious vulnerabilities but works if nodes mostly work and mostly evaluate each other well.
21:33 < bramc> Like, it shouldn't fall apart when all the nodes are being run by the same company :-P
21:33 < gmaxwell> it seemed like opencoin/ripplelabs heavily controlled participation; I always assumed this meant they understood the problem and were just being dishonest about the decenteralization claims (or at least using a very weak definition of decenteralized). That stellar let it break suggests that at least some of the involved people just had no clue, even after having it pointed out to them.
21:35 < gmaxwell> bramc: yea, you can't have a system like where advertised you make your systems only listen to peers _you_ trust, but you can always have the prior membership elect a new membership.  Thats not very decenteralized, ... esp since the prior membership can possibly go back and fork the history if any later membership later votes them off the island or dillutes them below their level of preference.
21:35 < bramc> Well you can't let any yahoo who volunteers be part of the voting group or overriding the majority is trivial
21:36 < bramc> gmaxwell, Presumably any such system has safeguards where peers don't allow retroactive reorgs past some point
21:36 < gmaxwell> at least in debate on bitcoin talk ripple's answer there appeared to be was just that people would configure their own trust reflecting the real world(tm) and yahoos just won't be trusted enough to matter.
21:36 < gmaxwell> bramc: IIRC the software is actually completely unable to reorg at all, though it's been a while since I looked at it.   You still have an issue for nodes which had been offline (or are new).
21:38 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i believe it doesn't even explode if there's a reorg
21:38 < phantomcircuit> it just ignored is
21:38 < phantomcircuit> ignores*
21:38 < bramc> This is sounding profoundly busted on a number of levels
21:39 < Taek> only if your voters or trusted nodes get corrupted
21:39 < bramc> It's completely reasonable to have a 'somewhat' centralized system, but it's absolutely critical that there be a mechanism where the voting members can vote in and out new members, and the conditions in which it forks need to be well-defined.
21:39 < gmaxwell> bramc: well thats fine if you have a true consensus system where only one majority can exist... and if the majority approves, you never change your mind. Makes things much simpler too.
21:40 < gmaxwell> but not even remotely decenteralized.
21:40 < bramc> gmaxwell, You can use the consensus system to make decisions about who gets into the voting group
21:40 < bramc> Which arguably adds a little bit of potential decentralization to the whole thing
21:41 < bramc> It at least makes it so the system won't explode just because the sysadmin screwed something up
21:41 < gmaxwell> I mentioned that above, indeed. But it's not clear how much it adds. (I suppose it would be a prudent design to support none the less)
21:41 < moa> tin foil hat ... maybe stellar was Jed's death star for ripple, sure shone a bright light on the dark side of that project whatever the case
21:42 < bramc> There doesn't seem to be any point at all to supporting distributed consensus if you don't apply it to membership as well
21:42 < bramc> Without that, it's a booby trap
21:42 < gmaxwell> bramc: well the point is perhaps regulatory indirection and playing to todays favorite flavors for asset speculation mania.
21:43 < gmaxwell> At least I'd always assumed that to be the case, the poof failure of the network seems at odds with that. "I notice I am confused" ::shrugs::
21:43 < gmaxwell> kinda sad, there are plenty of legit applications for reduced risk centeralized transaction systems.
21:43 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, why not both?
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21:44 < moa> "When the Ripple network was created, 100 billion XRP was created. The  founders gave 80 billion XRP to the OpenCoin Inc. OpenCoin Inc. will  develop the Ripple software."
21:45 < sipa> it seems that you really just want to admit a system is centralized, and get the best out of that
21:45 < bramc> Even a centralized 'cryptocurrency' at least has public key stuff going for it, so the centralized system can't forge transfers
21:45 < gmaxwell> sipa: we don't have good language for this stuff; centeralized or not is a binary distinction but the real risk analysis is more complex.
21:45 < sipa> agree
21:46 < sipa> it seems a 'fixed' version of ripple is a federation with consensus-approved membership changes
21:46 < gmaxwell> bramc: well the ripple stuff can forge transfers fine. It has a consensus ledger, not a consensus history. So if the voting nodes decide that you really have 2000 trillion ripples, thus it is so.
21:46 < sipa> which is definitely not centralized in a distributed systems meaning (it has no central point if failure)
21:47 < bramc> There is interesting stuff in ripple about making new 'currencies', but that doesn't need any cryptocurrency stuff to be done, arguably is better off being centralized.
21:47 < bramc> gmaxwell, Oh right, that's true
21:48 < bramc> That leaves basically none of the elements of actually being a cryptocurrency
21:48 < gmaxwell> well the original ripple stuff (ryan fluger's work) didn't need a consensus at all for the most part (there was some complexity about atomically killing a partially completed order);  for the most part the transactions were all participant to participant; as it is a debt network.
21:49 < gmaxwell> E.g. If I want to pay you but you won't accept my IOUs, but you'll accept sipa ones, and sipa will accept my IOUs.. this is something we should be able to work out among ourselves without extensive participation in a global consensus network.
21:50 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yes and this all sounds fairly reasonable for talking about, say, RMB deposits
21:50 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, interactively it's easy
21:51 < phantomcircuit> otherwise not so much
21:51 < bramc> But having centralized auditing makes it all so much easier.
21:51 < gmaxwell> yes indeed, making transactions span offline people was one of the excuses given for adding the global consensus network.
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21:52 < moa> and the 'gateways' would handle the most of the debt confusion users experienced figuring out who owed or owned what
21:52 < bramc> It seemed like ripple was a good system for setting up an RMP<->USD conversion market
21:52 < bramc> I mean RMB, not RMP
21:52 < gmaxwell> though there is no reason I could come up with where you couldn't have a system that was truly person to person; but supported delegating your identity to a federation of signers (a _little_ consensus network) that acted in your stead.
21:52 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, which is amusing since the only thing people use is always on trusted gateways
21:53 < sipa> what is RMB?
21:53 < bramc> gmaxwell, it being centralized allows the trusted third party to do basic auditing of how much debt everybody claims they've issued
21:53 < phantomcircuit> sipa, chinese currency
21:53 < bramc> sipa, renminbi, aka the yuan, the chinese currency
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21:54 < sipa> ah
21:54 < gmaxwell> bramc: sure, though you could also do that with a potentially seperate centeralized network per user as part of that users identity.  Even parts that could benefit from centeralization or consensus don't need to be global.
21:55 < bramc> sipa, If my understanding of the thing about schnorr signatures you scrawled is correct, collaborative 2-of-2 schnorr signatures are as simple as adding up our public keys to get the joint public key, and adding together our individual signatures of something to get the joint signature
21:55 < sipa> yup
21:55 < gmaxwell> You shouldn't care how much debt _I_ have issued, because it's sipa thats obligated to pay you. (you would, however, care about what his exposure is).
21:55 < sipa> but you need to agree on a public nonce first
21:56 < bramc> gmaxwell, A lot more shenanigans are possible without the trusted third party, and allowing the debts to flow freely between them requires centralized information to work well.
21:56 < bramc> sipa, Is the nonce one time or repeated? Can it be derived from the hash of the thing to be signed?
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21:57 < bramc> Supposedly Stellar is doing massive business now, anybody know if that's true and if so what their business actually is?
21:57 < gmaxwell> bramc: I think you're missing the point there though. Yes, you need a TTP of some kind to help you audit sipa's activity (whom you moderately trust) ... but you don't care about me, and I could be off in china, using a different TTP for auditing of my activity.
21:57 < sipa> bramc: so typically you do ECDH simultaneously with signing
21:58 < phantomcircuit> <gmaxwell> You shouldn't care how much debt _I_ have issued, because it's sipa thats obligated to pay you. (you would, however, care about what his exposure is).
21:58 < phantomcircuit> it's not really that simple though
21:59 < sipa> so everyone picks a secret nonce (potentially deterministically from message + your own private key)
21:59 < phantomcircuit> everybody in the debt chain is potentially liable
21:59 < sipa> publishes the public point associated with thir nonce
21:59 < sipa> everyone adds all public nonces together
21:59 < sipa> including their own
21:59 < sipa> and the result is the public nonce used
22:00 < sipa> this results in people not knowing eachother's private nonces
22:00 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: at least how ripple was proposed, when you paid someone your IOU you were absolutely obligated to make good on it. If other people screwed you on IOUs they owed you, that was your problem.
22:00 < bramc> sipa, I think I follow well enough to get the message flows right. They're very simple.
22:01 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no clue if it would work out in the real world(tm), but at least thats the idea as I understand it.
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22:01 < bramc> Basically we all agree on what we want to sign, and we all make our part of the signature, and any yutz, even someone who isn't one of us, can combine them to make the signature proper
22:02 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im pretty sure that wouldn't work in the "real world"
22:02 < phantomcircuit> since you're basically passing bad notes
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22:03 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's not a 'passing' though. nothing flows through anyone. I recieve a object of type A, and give someone else an object of type B.
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22:04 < sipa> bramc: right, but it's not "everyone signs and then adds sigs", it is "everyone publishes nonce, everyone receives everyone's nonce, everyone signs, someone adds the sigs together"
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22:04 < sipa> bramc: there are necessarily 2 communication rounds
22:04 < gmaxwell> Of course, it's more relistic if the asset is bitcoin; and then you can do constant automatic settlement on the backend, along with proof of solvency,  so it can never get too far out of wack for too long.
22:04 < sipa> unless you have predetermined public nonces which are usable only once
22:04 < bramc> sipa, Gotcha, thanks
22:04 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, eh i suspect you'd have a hard to arguing that in court
22:04 < bramc> gmaxwell, It's nice to have simultaneous transfer
22:05 < phantomcircuit> but i suspect you'd have a hard time arguing about this at all in court
22:06 < moa> ^^ which goes for anything crypto rpretty much
22:07 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: perhaps, it's a weaker security model for sure; where I'd talked about it on bct was always in the context of vending machines and paying for songs and such.
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22:23 < phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, your pr to switch to txid caching is likely broken as gmaxwell pointed out
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22:26 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I am not sure about that. some of the tests that it breaks are redundant ones.
22:27 < gmaxwell> but I do think it wouldn't be hard for it that to be an issue or become an issue.
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23:06 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sure and there's no reason it couldn't work like that (well except the dos issue which seems to be a non issue)
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 27 00:00:06 2015