--- Log opened Tue Mar 03 00:00:10 2015 00:03 -!- coryfields [~quassel@2001:4802:7800:1:6fc4:c486:ff20:1fa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052110172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.25.72.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:29 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bce8:b1b7:f693:52ab] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 < dc17523be3> re: lightning network, section 9: Use Casaes :D 00:38 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.25.72.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:38 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:39 < fluffypony> dc17523be3: casa as in "home", es as in "is" 00:39 < fluffypony> so "Home Use Is"...or how Manuel from Fawlty Towers would write "home uses" 00:40 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-070-168-065.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:41 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:41 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:45 -!- lclc_ [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:46 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50 < bramc> argh, there's an annoying withholding attack. If rewards are given to the top two, then a pool which has number 3 and either 1 or 2 can get more than their fair share by withholding 00:56 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59 < bramc> Looks like it needs n=3 or 4 to get around that 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:20 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:20 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.25.72.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:37 -!- p15_ [~p15@89.248.174.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37 -!- p15 [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39 < brisque> jcorgan: as far as I can tell their mining algorithm hasn't been defined by more than some hand waving and a small code base that's still getting major design changes fairly frequently. it seems to be at least partly justified by the community as "oh well we will be PoS soon". 01:41 < brisque> jcorgan: if you look into the material it doesn't seem all that particularly well thought out as a system. the reward for mining is alarmingly low if you take their IPO price to be somewhat indicative of its actual value (probably not sane, but there's no other point of reference). 01:52 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@86.121.71.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:03 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 02:04 -!- veorq [~veorq@static.250.136.251.148.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:10 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:10 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:12 -!- p15 [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:12 -!- p15_ [~p15@89.248.174.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:14 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:14 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:14 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:24 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:24 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:33 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:47 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:50 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:50 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:50 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:50 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:55 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@86.121.71.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:56 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@86.121.71.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rm -rf /] 03:05 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:17 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18 -!- lclc_ [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:22 -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-45-190-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:22 < brisque> jcorgan: actually ignore that, I missed that they made a blog post in the last few hours which at least partially scrapped their Dagger Hashimoto algorithm as well. "a swift audit of Vitalik and Matt’s initial algorithm by Tim Hughes .... showed major flaws. With his help, they were able to work together to devise a substantially more watertight algorithm" 03:23 < brisque> ".. , we are confident to say, should make the job of developing an FPGA/ASIC sufficiently difficult, especially given our determination to switch to a proof-of-stake system within the next 6-12 months" 03:24 < jcorgan> that's the entry i had just read 03:25 < brisque> yes, failure on my part. 03:27 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:28 < jcorgan> meanwhile, plain old stodgy boring mainstream non-hipster bitcoin goes on :) 03:32 < fluffypony> with it's power-hungry PoW 03:32 < fluffypony> but don't worry, I hear it's switching to X11 soon :-P 03:33 -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-45-190-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:35 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@124-148-83-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@124-148-83-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:37 < brisque> in my mind at least, they haven't answered the question why they're even attempting to be hardware resistant. 03:40 -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-45-190-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:42 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:43 < jcorgan> it seems a rather whiny reaction to the industrialization of bitcoin mining, and the fact that you can't "get rich" making free internet moneys with a CPU or botnet 03:43 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44 -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-45-190-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-123-103.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:48 -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-47-79-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:55 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:57 -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-47-79-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:57 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:58 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:8c21:817:b702:3bde] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:10 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:8c21:817:b702:3bde] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:26 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:29 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:38 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:40 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 04:40 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:40 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:42 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:43 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:44 < adam3us> brisque: isnt it against the social contract to replace mining with PoS. there was a mining supply curve and premine allocation before the "investment"/ICO. you'd think a PoS would change the economics .. give more coins to those who already have coins (good for ICO buyers in a short-termist thinking) but maybe bad for them in that everyone else gets annoyed and dumps. if/when that happens wont there be unhappy "investors". 04:46 < adam3us> brisque: i guess they did have lawyers so given the investor had no representation it might be a bit rumpelstiltskin such that they can change the allocation, mining supply, premine, ownership etc at will. 04:47 < brisque> adam3us: I would have thought so. they've added in something called "the bomb" to their genesis block. some hardcoded contract which creates infinite inflation if anybody decides to continue the proof of work system past where the proof of stake one forks off. 04:47 < brisque> adam3us: it's an odd expectation that they think proof of stake isn't possible now, but that they will have figured it out in 6-12 months, too. all evidence to the contrary at the moment. 04:48 < adam3us> brisque: well also proof of stake has problems day 0, even if a non-grindable PoS was found, with bitcoin satoshi would own 100% :) 04:49 < adam3us> brisque: so probably they need a bit of PoW just to hand out the non-premined coins. well i suppose they already handed out the premined coins, so then they wouldnt need PoW and could just cancel the mining concept period if they chose. then if no one sells they own a fixed % of coins perpetually as they win in proportion to their stake 04:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:50 < adam3us> brisque: thats more mastercoin like though just with some NPV-zero pricing inflation (where your % ownership in the coin stock stays constant but your number of nominal coins increases). 04:52 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:59 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 < brisque> adam3us: I read it as a limitation of their knowledge of proof of stake, rather than distribution problems. for ethereum in particular, they already have a non-lumped distribution due to their IPO. 05:00 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:01 < nickler> To the people interested in Ethereum vulnerabilities: An attacker can generate a transaction with negative amount s.t. her balance is actually increased. https://github.com/jonasnick/eth-neg-value-tx 05:02 * brisque snickers 05:02 < fluffypony> oh well, you know, there's that 05:05 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10 < adam3us> brisque: i guess my point is whats the point of a npv-zero activity. just as well premine, distribute and call it done. a rational player should see that changing your number of nominal coins with ownership % held constant is ownership-neutral. 05:10 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:11 < adam3us> brisque: so then its maybe more like a negative incentive to force you to participate in PoS based transaction validation. dont participate and your % ownership is reduced via inflation. 05:18 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:22 < adam3us> brisque: i think one cant say that about PoW mining with ASICs as there is an investment risk and capital cost. 05:23 < brisque> adam3us: FPGAs, not so much. the only investment is a big bottle of port and some VHDL. 05:24 < brisque> in a lot of ways programable logic is preferable over etching your design in silicon. you can make incremental "fuck it" designs, where as with a ASIC you can't really do a half ass job and patch it up later. 05:24 < jcorgan> brisque: whisky, not port 05:25 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:29 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:29 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:32 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:35 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:36 < brisque> nickler: nice catch. not sure if that's a laugh or cry situation. 05:38 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:39 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:40 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:41 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-icdnxystjdwsjsmz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:43 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:44 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:46 < adam3us> brisque: with the assumption being that fpgas are resellable or reusable for other things, which asic miners are not. 05:47 < nickler> brisque: neither, it's a situation worth 5 btc 05:47 < adam3us> brisque: otherwise fpga's cost money too. and use more power per hash. 05:48 < brisque> adam3us: yes, I made the comment based on the assumption that people already have them (and they do). for some period of time you were actually better off with smaller process size FPGA than the available Bitcoin ASICs. 05:48 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 < adam3us> brisque: you have to wonder if the energy efficiency delta between fpga & asics could be narrowed if there was ongoing demand for faster, more energy efficient fpgas 05:50 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:52 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53 < brisque> adam3us: maybe, I don't know a heap about that particular industry. there's 16nm FPGA available now I think. 05:55 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:55 < adam3us> brisque: apparently there are some people with fpgas that rush to implement the latest new PoW varianets and mine alt-coins to flip on cryptsy for bitcoin 05:55 < brisque> adam3us: probably not competitive with bitcoin asics still. the ability to chain them in series gets rid of a lot of the cost of making bitcoin mining hardware, that is you lose all the big bulky VRMs and massive resistive losses trying to push hundreds of amps at 0.6v around a copper clad board. 05:57 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 < brisque> adam3us: I believe it's the other way around. altcoins are designed specifically for FPGA mining, and then an altcoin is build around that algorithm. 05:57 < fluffypony> under the guise of it being "ASIC proof" 05:58 < fluffypony> meanwhile the dev, if you'll excuse the pun, is coining it 05:58 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:59 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:07 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08 -!- bigpup [~bigpup@50.253.32.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- koshii [~0@node-xwn.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.38.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:11 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@86.121.71.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:15 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:19 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:24 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:31 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:32 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:33 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.38.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:40 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:41 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:41 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:43 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:43 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:45 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.38.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:47 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:49 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:52 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:52 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:53 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has quit [Quit: ceedz] 07:03 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:05 -!- lclc_ [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-24-90-1-174.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:11 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- lclc_ [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:24 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:36 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.38.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:43 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 < brisque> fluffypony: well you can find lots of instances of altcoins claiming that they do things with they most certainly do not. most if not all of them with "unique" features are generally undesirable or broken in concept, execution, or both. 07:46 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:49 < brisque> Ethereum has posted some more information about their launch scheme, they'll actually be launching the network 3 times under increasingly goofy names, "frontier", "homestead" and "metropolis", somewhat alarmingly with differing consensus rules but all the same block chain. 07:50 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.124.192.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53 < brisque> actually there'll be five stages (two goofy names as yet unknown). some have reduced block rewards, some have centralised "checkpoints", some method of a centralised authority undoing blocks. that's going to be a nightmare to deal with in terms of legacy validation. 07:54 < jgarzik> introduces some legal liability too 07:59 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- CodeShark [~textual@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 08:00 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:03 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:03 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.124.192.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:04 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 < adam3us> brisque: wut? how does that even make sense :) i was thinking they'd have to freeze parameters on launch! social contract = which way the wind is blowing today? 08:08 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-123-103.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:10 < fluffypony> what social contract 08:10 < fluffypony> Darkcoin published their emission curve formula in their whitepaper 08:10 < fluffypony> so I graphed it against reality 08:10 < fluffypony> http://i.imgur.com/nAHt0T9.png 08:10 < fluffypony> http://i.imgur.com/qr8Yh5T.png 08:11 < fluffypony> "social contract" is meaningless to most of the perceived leaders in that space 08:11 < fluffypony> /rant 08:12 < adam3us> fluffypony: bbut if the social contract is repeatedly changed by human choice.. what does it even mean. conflict of interest will arise and shape the human changes. central control is needed. the users could revolt and reject change. etc. 08:13 < fluffypony> good point 08:13 < adam3us> fluffypony: it maybe lack of distributed system / adversarial thinking. implicit trust of self as arbiter of what is best and right. 08:13 < fluffypony> we need centralised control 08:13 < fluffypony> let's call them "checkpointers" because then it sounds decentralised 08:13 < fluffypony> and we'll use...uh...voting, yes, voting...because democracy = freedom 08:14 < adam3us> fluffypony: i mean they end up by design, or later need installing central control to effect these planned or unplanned changes. (like stellar! oops, and centralised 100%) 08:14 < adam3us> fluffypony: ah now we're taking the piss :) ok gotcha. 08:14 < fluffypony> :-P 08:16 < brisque> I was mainly thinking about the stability of the system more than anything else. seemingly their cake is dry enough both from that standpoint that they believe they need a centralisation crutch to hold it together, and their efforts at this seem to make it even crumblier. I don't quite follow reducing the mining reward at the beginning, for example, it just seems to complicate the codebase unnecessarily and add lots of fun edge cases. 08:17 < adam3us> brisque: you know you've failed when someone takes all the coins via algo defect and offers to give them back if you fix it. 08:17 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.124.192.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:17 < adam3us> brisque: they enjoy complexity i think. 08:18 < brisque> adam3us: I'm not quite sure I follow 08:18 < adam3us> brisque: no serious point. just the funniest fail in an alt, when someone took possession of most of the coins due to a defect of some kind and wouldnt give them back until they fixed the defect. 08:18 < adam3us> brisque: forget which alt that was. 08:20 < jcorgan> adam3us: the older and more experienced we get, the more we shun unnecessary complexity. they have a long way to go in that regard. 08:20 < kanzure> screw that, i'll be young forever 08:22 < fluffypony> I agree with adam3us 08:22 < fluffypony> in fact 08:23 < fluffypony> the more complex it is the more of a cult following it attracts 08:23 < fluffypony> because they seem to thrive on a "dev worship" complex 08:23 < fluffypony> ignoring any suggestion that maybe the underlying decisions / architecture could possibly be flawed with lots of hand-waving and "dev is a genius" commentary 08:24 < kanzure> oh i wouldn't say that, i think they would be ready to drop their kindness towards developers quite quickly 08:25 < fluffypony> it depends on if they can, individually, offload their bag fast enough 08:25 < jcorgan> fluffypony: again, my observation that the whole thing is reminiscent of a high school science club 08:26 < fluffypony> nice observation, jcorgan 08:27 < fluffypony> I've latched on to something andytoshi said the other day about the amount of "amateur cryptography" in that space, I also think it's a great way of describing it 08:27 < fluffypony> it's like NASA entrusting the next shuttle launch to the local model rocket club (except somehow not as dignified) 08:28 < jcorgan> the unfortunate aspect imho is that there are some talented people in that community that with guidance and peer review/encouragement could make solid contributions to what we're doing 08:29 < brisque> it's possible you can attribute this behaviour to the fact that there's a lot of people involved that all think things should be done in a certain way. the committee ends with "we'll do all of it" rather than making an authoritative decision as to the direction and execution. 08:29 * fluffypony ponders 08:31 < adam3us> i dont think most of it would be happening without the "to the moon" pot of gold in mind. 08:31 < skittylx> ^ 08:31 < fluffypony> yes 08:32 < fluffypony> I don't think there's ever been a FOSS environment, that I can recall anyway, that was so indelibly tied to wealth 08:32 < fluffypony> you can't scam people by cloning mysql 08:34 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:34 < jcorgan> well, i could be wrong, but i predict it will all end in tears for them. hopefully we can absorb some of the devs, who in their disillusionment, become willing to learn from it 08:34 < brisque> fluffypony: you'll also notice that developing actual bitcoin software is almost entirely unprofitable for everyone. 08:35 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:35 < fluffypony> brisque: oh I know - it's the same with Monero, donations are sparse and demands are many 08:35 < fluffypony> especially from "investors" that think they're somehow paying us money because they bought something on an exchange 08:35 < skittylx> brisque: no profit, not without breaking a social cintract some how. 08:36 < skittylx> contract* 08:39 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:41 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bhebfbnztpmfusem] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:44 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:45 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:02 -!- droark_ [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:03 -!- bigpup [~bigpup@50.253.32.117] has quit [] 09:03 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@rrcs-70-62-91-94.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:04 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:04 -!- hearn [~mike@199-188-193-172.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@c-71-225-211-210.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:13 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:14 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:16 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:25 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31 -!- coiner [~linker@118.69.5.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:39 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 09:39 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:44 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:49 < Muis> what would be the easiest way to make a client that supports multiple chains? 09:49 < Muis> for example, to have both mainnet and testnet, I have to run two daemons 09:49 < brisque> Muis: OT #bitcoin 09:50 < Muis> brisque: im looking for a way to simulate treechains, it has not so much to do with bitcoin itself 09:51 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:51 < Muis> if I run each chain as a seperate daemon, they do not share their peer-list.. I want to know if there other disadvantages, or that it makes no sense to combine them 09:52 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52 -!- mm_ [~mm@aftr-109-90-232-122.unity-media.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:58 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-24-90-1-174.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 09:59 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:59 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:59 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:59 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 < brisque> Muis: still off topic really. they can't possibly share peers if they're on different networks, so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. 10:03 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:05 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:05 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:05 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:07 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:07 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:08 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11 < Muis> brisque: if they have on average at least 10% of their networks in common for example, why wouldnt it make sense to share peers? 10:12 < Muis> 1 in 10 peers would carry more than one network they are interested in 10:12 < brisque> the network magic is different. you literally can not connect one to the other. 10:13 < maaku> Muis: there is no addresses in common between separate networks 10:13 < maaku> the question doesn't make sense 10:13 < Muis> you have one main network 10:14 < Muis> each transaction on the main network forms the genesis block/tx of a new network 10:14 < Muis> and each client may choose to follow some of these 'branches' 10:14 < pigeons> it would be a bad assumption that a peer on one net is a member of some other network unless you learn this from p2p on the other network, dns seeding of other network, etc 10:14 < Muis> but since most of them have 0 seeders/peers, it wouldnt not make sense to have different ports/networks 10:14 < kanzure> what are you actually trying to do? 10:15 < maaku> pigeons: no it goes beyond that. remember that the port number is part of the peer description. you can't have two networks on the same ip:port 10:15 < Muis> im trying to decentralize a forum 10:15 < kanzure> what does that mean 10:15 < maaku> Muis: I suspect that is where your problem lies 10:15 < Muis> each transaction on the main-net is a topic 10:15 < kanzure> why? 10:15 < fluffypony> Muis: this is an excellent idea - in fact, since a particular IP address on the Internet may server HTTP, or HTTPS, or SSH, or FTP, or whatever, then we should all share the connections where necessary 10:15 < fluffypony> we could do it via a stack of some sort 10:15 < fluffypony> a TCP/IP stack 10:16 < Muis> and for each topic a new chain is started with comments 10:16 < pigeons> i see maaku thanks 10:16 < Muis> and people who follow the main chain 10:16 < Muis> can choose to follow some of these side-chains 10:16 < brisque> fluffypony: careful with the snark, multiplexing is very useful sometimes. 10:16 < kanzure> you might be interested in this thing called usenet 10:16 < kanzure> it has a very interesting architecture 10:16 < maaku> Muis: a block chain is absolutely the wrong tool for this 10:16 < Muis> yes I familar with it 10:17 < fluffypony> brisque: as maaku said ^^ 10:17 < Muis> I want to bring usenet to the blockchain (or vice versa) 10:17 < kanzure> it would be more efficient to use usenet itself 10:17 < Muis> no 10:17 < Muis> its just for text, not binaries 10:17 * brisque blinks 10:17 < brisque> usenet is for text. 10:18 < Muis> usenet is for both 10:18 < brisque> alt.binaries.* is a hack which stuffs binaries into posts. 10:18 < Muis> however 10:18 < Muis> if you compare each usenet-group to a network/sidechain in bitcoin 10:19 < Muis> how would I be able to realise something like I described, or would I have to write the code myself? 10:19 < maaku> Muis: "I want to bring usenet to the blockchain" <-- WHY? this makes no sense. 10:19 < kanzure> how would you square peg round hole? 10:19 < maaku> and this should probably be on #bitcoin 10:20 < kanzure> if we look at the distribution of round holes we find that square pegs are normally distributed 10:20 < brisque> Muis: I think you'd find it extremely hard to justify why this data should be in a block chain to begin with. it's the wrong tool for the task. 10:20 < brisque> kanzure: maybe we can encode binaries using a combination of round pegs in square holes, and square pegs in round holes. 10:20 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:20 < kanzure> brisque: right, some sort of cam/gear system 10:23 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:23 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:23 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:24 < Muis> brisque: I dont see why its the wrong tool for the task? 10:25 < Muis> an usenet-server and a bitcoin-daemon just exchange messages sorted by time 10:25 < brisque> Muis: conversely, can you explain why it is the right tool for the task? it's slow, expensive and inefficient, it's got to have good justification to overcome that. 10:27 -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 < instagibbs> Muis: what problem are you trying to solve? 10:30 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:33 < Muis> instagibbs: I just need a distributed database for a project, and it seems easy to use bitcoin as a base 10:34 < Muis> unless any of you knows a better alternative? 10:34 < Luke-Jr> bitcoin is not a database 10:34 < Luke-Jr> try LevelDB 10:34 < Luke-Jr> that's what Bitcoin nodes use for their databases 10:34 < Muis> LevelDB is not distributed (in a peer 2 peer way) 10:34 < Luke-Jr> sure, but at least it's a database 10:34 < Muis> the blockchain is a database too 10:35 < Luke-Jr> no, it isn't. 10:35 < Muis> so how would you call it? 10:35 < brisque> it's closer to a database than say, a strawberry, but not by much. 10:35 < instagibbs> it's got data 10:35 < instagibbs> and a coinbase 10:35 < instagibbs> seriously though, if you need a distributed database, just google that term 10:36 < Muis> i did 10:36 < Muis> many times over the years 10:36 < adlai> it's a "database", but much more expensive to maintain than 'centralized' databases (or most other DHT protocols), and for this expense, you only earn consensus on the latest version 10:36 < Luke-Jr> Muis: Bitcoin's a consensus system, nothing like a database 10:36 < instagibbs> unless you're worried about someone "Double-spending" a file it's a complete waste of time and energy 10:37 < Muis> the people who can insert data in the chain, and the people who can read data from the chain needs to be seperated 10:37 < justanotheruser> Muis: the blockchain is a proof that the database is the database everyone else is using 10:37 < fluffypony> Muis 10:37 < fluffypony> seriously 10:37 < Luke-Jr> Muis: DHTs work for that just fine 10:37 < fluffypony> if you want to host a distributed forum just use Tahoe LAFS 10:37 < Muis> and they can be seperated by transferring of 'coins', so double spending is applicable 10:37 -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"] 10:38 < fluffypony> zooko: is your blog still hosted on a Tahoe LAFS backend? 10:38 < justanotheruser> when you have a blockhammer everything looks like a chainail 10:38 < fluffypony> justanotheruser: quite 10:38 < Muis> fluffypony: I know about Tahoe LAFS, but its not distributed like Bitcoin? the peers are all run by yourself? 10:39 < fluffypony> Muis: volunteers would run the peers, just like volunteers would have to run your usenetbastardchain 10:39 < Muis> true 10:39 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 < Muis> it was long time ago I looked at it, maybe I should research it again 10:40 < justanotheruser> if you want to force everyone who has some data to have all the data you can do it through means other than a blockchain 10:40 < Muis> but I believe availability was not guarantueed 10:40 < justanotheruser> but that probably isn't an ideal property 10:40 < Muis> with a blockchain, its always 100% intact as long as there is at least 1 peer left 10:40 < kanzure> that is not true of a blockchain 10:40 < Muis> with Tahoe LAFS, if there is only 1 peer left, the data is corrupt I think 10:41 < instagibbs> in bitcoin 1 peer can just say whatever it likes to bootstrappers 10:41 < adlai> the blockchain alone doesn't guarantee that there isn't a longer fork which you've not seen yet 10:41 < fluffypony> Muis: of course, if you're distributing partial data among peers that stands to reason 10:41 < Muis> fluffypony: i need all the data to be available even if there is only 1 peer 10:42 < Luke-Jr> Muis: bitcoin does not do that 10:42 < fluffypony> but then that one peer could just lie 10:42 < fluffypony> and ignore data changes 10:42 < fluffypony> "consensus" implies more than one peer agreeing with each other 10:42 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42 < fluffypony> if you only have one peer then you're talking to yourself 10:42 < Muis> Luke-Jr: If I create a bitcoin-clone, why would I need more than 1 or 2 peers to make it work? 10:43 < kanzure> Muis: what is bitcoin? 10:43 < Muis> yes I ment 2 peers 10:43 < Muis> or 3 :) but not more 10:43 < justanotheruser> Muis: if you're the only source of information then you might as well just have a centralized database 10:43 < justanotheruser> #bitcoin is probably better for this 10:43 < Muis> justanotheruser: maybe I dont want to reveal the publisher of the information 10:43 < Muis> maybe I want to publish wiki-leaks like this 10:43 < Luke-Jr> Muis: are you sure you don't want git-annex? 10:44 < justanotheruser> oh the old luke git-eroo 10:44 < Muis> Luke: i will google that 10:44 < kanzure> when they say use #bitcoin they mean you should type "/join #bitcoin" and leave this channel 10:44 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:45 < Muis> it has nothing to do with Bitcoin 10:45 < Luke-Jr> right, maybe #bitcoin-offtopic is best 10:49 < Luke-Jr> hm, new VU440 FPGA can apparently fit ten Cortex A9 processors 10:51 -!- bigpup [~bigpup@50.253.32.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:02 < amiller> tahoe lafs can be volunteer-run but it's not really ideal that way 11:03 < amiller> its really best for either a) a club where the members know each other and kind of enforce participation out of band, or b) where a system administrator goes and sets up a computer at several different locaitons 11:04 -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:15 -!- amincd [1710a2c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.16.162.198] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:18 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.124.192.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:33 < brisque> .title http://dualec.org/DualECTLS.pdf 11:33 < yoleaux> brisque: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. 11:33 < brisque> "On the Practical Exploitability of Dual EC in TLS Implementations" 11:38 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7da6:e6e2:20b6:efd4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 < nsh> nice 11:55 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:58 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03 -!- waxwing__ [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-jmjkdmpwviwjbkru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:04 -!- waxwing__ is now known as waxwing 12:09 -!- mm__ [~mm@VPN-POOL1-ONT-031.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:09 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:10 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:13 -!- mm_ [~mm@aftr-109-90-232-122.unity-media.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:13 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:19 < bramc> It turns out that withholding attacks inherently kill collaborative mining schemes 12:19 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:20 < bramc> So I'm back to working on simpler tricks 12:21 -!- jtimon [~quassel@user-5af5112f.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:30 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:33 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:36 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:43 < nsh> can't witholding attacks be eliminated by tweaking the network protocol so you can request blocks in ranges and detect, mark as potentially hostile nodes that break contiguity? 12:45 < justanotheruser> nsh: How do you expect us to come into consensus on which nodes are malicious, let alone label blocks by node? 12:46 < nsh> yeah i don't know. magic presumably 12:46 < nsh> or tit-for-tat 12:46 < nsh> which is the closest we have to working magic afaik 12:46 < justanotheruser> I don't see how tit for tat is relevant 12:47 < nsh> might not be. i'm not claiming to have deep insights here 12:47 < nsh> or any at all :) 12:47 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:48 < bramc> nsh, I'm talking about collaborative mining schemes built into a mining protocol at the base level, not schemes for adding collaboration onto the winner-take-all mining rewards bitcoin has today 12:50 -!- luny` [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:50 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 < Eliel> bramc: have you considered a simple tit for tat model for collaborative mining? That is, if someone presents you a share (not quite a block, but most likely required a lot of attempts to find) that would've paid you if it was a block, you then seek to return the favor. 12:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 < bramc> Eliel, this is something completely different 12:52 < bramc> the purpose of the collaboration on mining isn't to have fairness, it's to make it so that someone mining a fork falls behind more reliably 12:52 -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53 -!- jtimon [~quassel@user-5af5112f.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:54 < Eliel> bramc: please consider what I just suggested, it could work as a base for something like that since the collaboration process itself creates an interesting web of PoW structures. 12:54 -!- jtimon [~quassel@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:54 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55 -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55 < Eliel> bramc: plus, it's actually possible to do with bitcoin, right now without a change to blockchain. It's just that no-one has implemented something like this. 12:56 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 12:56 -!- justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser 12:56 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:57 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:59 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@5-12-196-178.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 < bramc> Eliel, That is, again, totally irrelevant to what I'm working on 13:09 < Eliel> bramc: if the majority of mining was done in the kind of collborative way I described, it'd make it impossible to do stealth fork attempts because they'd be obvious and thus could be ignored. Non-stealth forks would, however be possible, but it'd very fast become clear which part of the fork has the majority hashpower behind it and I'd expect economic reasons to lead to fast convergence before the next block is found. 13:12 -!- nuke__ [~nuke@46-37-150.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:14 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:15 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:17 -!- afk11 [~thomas@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:24 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@5-12-196-178.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:26 -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:31 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@rrcs-70-62-91-94.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:34 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35 -!- hearn [~mike@199-188-193-172.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:35 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 -!- hearn [~mike@199-188-193-172.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:40 -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:40 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@5-12-196-178.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:49 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 13:50 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:58 -!- nuke__ [~nuke@176.92.140.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-50-189-4-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:01 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@c-71-225-211-210.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-50-189-4-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:11 -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:12 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- jtimon [~quassel@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:16 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:22 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:43 -!- mm__ [~mm@VPN-POOL1-ONT-031.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has quit [] 14:48 < kanzure> is this an appropriate overview of withholding? http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/12/03/the-miners-dilemma/ 14:48 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052110172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52 < brisque> slightly panicked, but I don't see anything wrong with it. 14:55 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:55 < brisque> you can be malicious and defend your pool against possible malice by just proxying suspicious clients to someone elses pool. 14:57 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58 -!- bigpup [~bigpup@50.253.32.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:59 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 < phantomcircuit> brisque, ha that's clever 15:00 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I'm not sure which withholding you're referring to 15:00 < phantomcircuit> potentially legally questionable 15:00 < phantomcircuit> but clever non the less 15:00 < phantomcircuit> none* 15:00 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:02 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 < justanotheruser> the article is clearly about decreasing the profitability of pools, but there is another block withholding attack 15:02 < justanotheruser> Is that big article even necessary? you could probably explain that form of block withholding in one IRC message 15:03 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:03 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cpfioixtdmplyomw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05 < brisque> phantomcircuit: that's the nice thing about stratum (from the legally questionable side), it's for all purposes just a dumb hose you can fire at anything you please. 15:07 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-icdnxystjdwsjsmz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:14 < maaku> phantomcircuit: forward to p2pool? then you're only destroying the commons 15:18 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: the argument its making is that its not a guarenteed loss to the attacker, which is the newer and surprising result. 15:19 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:23 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 15:26 < justanotheruser> mining pools usually optomize for profitability... 15:27 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:28 -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:31 -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:39 -!- afk11 [~thomas@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:40 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:53 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:53 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:02 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-49-240-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@bcdc1913.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@bcdc1913.skybroadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:12 < bramc> kanzure, That's talking about the same concept, but I'm comparing it to setups where minting of a new block requires two different things be put together, which bitcoin doesn't. Those have horrible withholding attacks, which is presumably why bitcoin has the random whole block minting setup. 16:22 < kanzure> meanwhile at the european central bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNSntgzcu48 16:32 < skittylx> kanzure: that music is so funny 16:33 < moa> it matches the inanity of the game perfectly 16:35 < moa> http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/03/03/2036241 ... anyone noticed safari rejecting certificates recently? 16:36 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-49-240-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37 -!- hearn [~mike@199-188-193-172.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:40 < skittylx> export grade lol 16:41 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:42 < bramc> moa, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QP5X6fcukM 16:47 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 16:52 -!- bigpup [~bigpuppy@pool-173-66-42-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:53 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:53 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:00 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:01 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:02 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:15 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:15 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:15 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 -!- droark_ [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 17:24 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:28 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28 -!- antgreen [~user@198.0.167.145] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:37 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:41 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:48 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 17:51 -!- hearn [~mike@173-11-90-206-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:57 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:00 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:05 -!- p15_ [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- p15 [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:07 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:08 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:08 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:08 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:08 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:11 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-cnineywogihwfrip] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:12 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:13 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17 -!- hearn [~mike@173-11-90-206-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-d9ba10de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:25 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:32 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-088-070-117-006.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-070-168-065.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:38 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 18:39 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:39 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:44 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45 -!- zooko [~user@72.42.70.210] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:49 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:51 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:51 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:51 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:53 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 36.0/20150222232811]] 18:53 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:57 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:58 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-198-1-98.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:59 -!- nuke__ [~nuke@176.92.140.112] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7da6:e6e2:20b6:efd4] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:01 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02 -!- rhadamanthus [~rhadamant@unaffiliated/rhadamanthus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:02 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:02 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:02 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:05 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:06 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:06 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:06 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:07 -!- antgreen` [~user@198.0.167.145] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:07 -!- antgreen [~user@198.0.167.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15 < gmaxwell> Those of cryptographic inclination 19:15 < gmaxwell> --may find this hex does vex their expectation. 19:15 < gmaxwell> No system break is demonstrated here, 19:15 < gmaxwell> --but methods used may not be crystal clear. 19:15 < gmaxwell> If on reflection you form useful theories, 19:15 < gmaxwell> --or in confusion wish to fire off queries, 19:15 < gmaxwell> send thoughts, on what you found or you tried doing. 19:15 < gmaxwell> --And if this is a field you like pursuing, 19:15 < gmaxwell> you might consider joining several peers: 19:15 < gmaxwell> --we're hiring now for Blockstream engineers. (burma shave) 19:16 < gmaxwell> http://www.blockstream.com/half-a-puzzle/ 19:16 < gmaxwell> :P 19:17 < kanzure> no spam 19:17 < gmaxwell> radio 19:17 -!- rhadamanthus [~rhadamant@unaffiliated/rhadamanthus] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 19:18 < gmaxwell> (the material is relevant to people's interest here :) ) 19:18 < kanzure> :) 19:18 < kanzure> i'm just giving you a hard time 19:19 < zooko> ☺ 19:19 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:20 < justanotheruser> I don't know how to read that 19:20 < kanzure> carefully 19:20 < justanotheruser> oh, I didn't know gmax was a rapper 19:21 < kanzure> yeah it's up on rapgenius already 19:22 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:22 < gmaxwell> Yea, okay, I made a good call to not have the rhyme on the page... since you're talking more about that the the boggling signatures. :) 19:24 < justanotheruser> Yes I can explain #3. You have a massive FPGA farm 19:25 < moa> ^^ first thought 19:25 < moa> and some steaks on the bar-b 19:26 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: Estimate the work for that. 19:26 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-98-217-146-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 19:28 < kanzure> page 8 "the operation of the gold market is described by the following equations:" http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/ifdp/1981/190/ifdp190.pdf 19:28 < kanzure> (well, marked page 7) 19:28 < kanzure> "Equation 2 describes the law of motion for the total stock of gold" what? 19:29 -!- zooko [~user@72.42.70.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:29 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-98-217-146-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30 < gmaxwell> Economists, hurrah. Consider a spherical frictionless gold market in simple harmonic motion. 19:30 < kanzure> i was hoping that central banks may have done some actually useful computational modeling of gold that i could look at 19:30 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:30 < kanzure> but uh... 19:30 < kanzure> i suppose not? 19:31 < justanotheruser> my best guess is that there's some trick to get a pubkey starting like that in constant time, then you bruteforced ~16^8 keys to find that signature 19:31 < justanotheruser> maybe you did it all in constant time though o_O 19:31 < kanzure> justanotheruser: my guess is that they would not give you a bruteforced public key. it's kinda rude of them to do that, i doubt they are doing that here. 19:31 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:32 < kanzure> "rude" as in, it's like asking someone to solve a problem but the solution is "well first you acquire an unreasonably large amount of computational power...." 19:33 < moa> spheres are good first approximation to most things (except tori) 19:33 < justanotheruser> kanzure: The trick is getting the key to have a really low value, I guess they would just leave the pubkey as is to impress us though 19:35 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has quit [] 19:35 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i'm trying to figure out hte thing they should have studied about gold but didn't. for example, various physical limits to monetary policy involving gold buying/selling. 19:36 < kanzure> actualy i suppose some of this might be useful. still looking. 19:37 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:38 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:41 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:42 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:43 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: out of curiousity, is this something most of the coredevs would know? 19:43 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has quit [Quit: ceedz] 19:44 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45 < gmaxwell> Well there are several things you might try to explain there, lots of people could just explain most of it out of hand. The rest, other than people I've /told/ I'm not sure if I should actually expect anyone else to say much. 19:52 -!- zooko [~user@97-122-248-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:54 -!- koshii [~0@node-xwn.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:57 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:59 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:00 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:00 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-mgomnonjxvluoyeb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:02 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:05 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:05 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:08 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@2601:9:4680:dd0:757a:dac0:e491:ae01] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09 -!- bigpup [~bigpuppy@pool-173-66-42-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:10 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:13 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:13 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-mgomnonjxvluoyeb] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:14 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:15 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-soiitisvcugkchgq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:18 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-49-237-0-133.revip6.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/paperbot] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-49-237-0-133.revip6.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35 -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:42 -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has quit [Quit: ceedz] 20:46 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247d:4109:2882:9f84:8623:2f03] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:49 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-124-122-160-77.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:51 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7da6:e6e2:20b6:efd4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:53 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:54 -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:58 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:02 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:03 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cpfioixtdmplyomw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:13 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-98-217-146-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:28 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-98-217-146-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:33 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-50-189-4-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:35 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@5-12-196-178.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@5-12-196-178.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:37 -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-50-189-4-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47 -!- p15 [~p15@89.248.174.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:48 -!- p15_ [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:55 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 21:58 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:04 -!- lclc_ [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:14 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 22:16 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:16 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:16 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:19 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:25 -!- p15_ [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:27 -!- p15 [~p15@89.248.174.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:28 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30 -!- koshii_ [~0@ppp-124-122-160-77.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:30 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-124-122-160-77.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-soiitisvcugkchgq] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31 -!- BananaLotus [~BananaLot@irc.maza.club] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31 -!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-yljiyvguuknnijgt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:35 -!- coiner [~linker@118.69.5.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:48 -!- BananaLotus [~BananaLot@irc.maza.club] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:49 -!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:57 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7da6:e6e2:20b6:efd4] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:59 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:00 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:01 -!- moa1 [~moa@103.247.193.123] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:01 -!- moa1 [~moa@103.247.193.123] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02 -!- moa1 [~moa@103.247.193.123] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:02 -!- moa1 [~moa@103.247.193.123] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02 -!- moa1 [~moa@103.247.193.123] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:03 -!- lclc_ [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:03 -!- amiller [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:04 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:04 -!- moa1 [~moa@103.247.193.123] has quit [Client Quit] 23:04 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05 -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:06 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07 -!- hktud0 [~ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:13 < wumpus> gmaxwell: maybe a stupid question, but what is the signature format on http://www.blockstream.com/half-a-puzzle/ ? it's not DER, and there are three numbers, I assume R and S and ? 23:15 < gmaxwell> wumpus: yes, this is actually the (old) armory format, and it's R and S directly seralized. the hash is HASH256() with a 'Bitcoin Signed Message' prefix. (double checking the prefix) 23:15 -!- amiller [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:16 < gmaxwell> my sage code in verifying it: hashlib.sha256(hashlib.sha256('Bitcoin Signed Message:\n'+'Nor this, given a bit of algebra.').digest()).hexdigest() 23:17 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:17 < wumpus> but the signature is *three* lines, what's there besides R and S? 23:17 < gmaxwell> it's just randomly wrapped (count the bytes) 23:17 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:18 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a3cd.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:18 < wumpus> ok 23:18 < gmaxwell> for some reason it's wrapped at a particular width, which ends up being partway trhough the numbers. 23:18 < wumpus> unless figuring that out is part of the puzzle, may make sense to add some description :) 23:19 -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:19 < gmaxwell> yea, I was thinking of adding a sage notebook that verifies them. 23:19 < brisque> cute. brainwallet.org produces that signature format but it can't verify it. 23:20 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:20 < wumpus> yes, makes sense 23:20 < gmaxwell> Thing I learned; that armory signature format was the work of the same person who did the 'encryption' used in the prior electrum release that was busted. The armory signing code was also busted. 23:21 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:21 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:21 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:21 < gmaxwell> (used a non-cryptographic prng; though that isn't the case for my examples.) 23:22 * brisque facepalms 23:22 -!- zooko [~user@97-122-248-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:25 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:25 -!- mm_ [~mm@aftr-109-90-232-122.unity-media.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:30 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:33 -!- OneFixt_ [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:35 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:35 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:48 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:48 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:7da6:e6e2:20b6:efd4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:51 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@g228096246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:52 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] --- Log closed Wed Mar 04 00:00:11 2015