--- Log opened Thu Mar 05 00:00:12 2015
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01:05  * andy-logbot is logging
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01:38 < nickler> rusty: I really like http://jeremykun.com/2014/02/08/introducing-elliptic-curves/
01:39 < rusty> nickler: oh, that looks nice!
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11:47 < catlasshrugged> has anyone come up with a reasonble approximation of calculating the cost of a double spend vs. # of confirmations for a given tx?
11:47 < kanzure> you mean the cost of mining a reorg?
11:48 < catlasshrugged> If I understand you correctly, yes
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11:49 < kanzure> catlasshrugged: page 11 https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
11:49 < kanzure> catlasshrugged: and https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html
11:56 < catlasshrugged> kanzure: thanks, those are helpful
11:56 < sipa> #bitcoin please
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12:08 < catlasshrugged> sorry
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13:17 < bramc> tromp, I didn't remember the bit about three in the holy hand grenade sketch
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13:18 < tromp> oh, it's a classic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog#Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch
13:19 < bramc> I looked it up after you mentioned it
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13:19 < tromp> then you see how your remark reminded me of it:)
13:20 < bramc> Yes. Something about how important three is.
13:20 < tromp> you also said something like 4 is out of the question
13:20 < bramc> Oh funny
13:21 < tromp> where they have " Five is right out. "
13:22 < bramc> There's a bunch of tradeoffs, I'm basically looking for a value which causes pooling rewards for not crazy pool sizes to be nearly nonexistent, and doesn't fall prey to a superfast spow server being overly advantaged.
13:23 < bramc> There's also a large blowup in the number of messages with the current way of doing things I'm working on
13:25 < tromp> you should prepare a blog entry with an outline of your scheme, and get a ton of hopefully useful feedback
13:25 < tromp> also saves you from explaining it here repeatedly:)
13:26 < gmaxwell> bramc: did I hear that you're up to three SPOWs now?
13:26 < tromp> no; he has 3 proofs of storage for each spow
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13:27 < bramc> gmaxwell, No it's three pos, followed by a spow whose challenge difficulty is the sum of the quality of the three previous spows
13:27 < bramc> or maybe their geometric mean, or geometric mean squared, or something like that.
13:27 < gmaxwell> ah, okay, that isn't as rubgoldbergy as I feared.
13:28 < bramc> It's less rube goldbergy than what I was working on before, although there's annoying stuff where it needs to be done collaboratively so people send around not just the best first pos but a list of the top few, and the the top few for the first and second based on their quality
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13:29 < gmaxwell> oh that sounds like it has even more progress.
13:29 < bramc> Because an attacking pool will do that on their own, so you need to do the collaborative thing for the general pool to outdo them
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13:30 < bramc> Not sure what you mean by 'more progress'. Doing things in this way is necessitated because withholding attacks if the pos all used the same challenge are very effective.
13:31 < bramc> This one has all kind of funny stuff happen where a member of a pool which is trying to withholding attacks defects because they got a winner for pos #3 so they serruptitiously introduce it into the general pool without permission
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13:34 < bramc> Using three pos makes it so that a pool which has a small fraction if everything has only a tiny chance of getting lucky and catching up, to the point where pooling bonus is essentially gone
13:34 < zooko> Anyone going to the MIT Bitcoin Expo? I am! ☺
13:35 < kanzure> if someone could be kind enough to link me to a livestream when it is happening, i can do transcripts and live peanut gallery
13:35 < gmaxwell> zooko: BlueMatt is I believe.
13:39 < bramc> It looks like the idea behind op_checktimelockverify is to make it so that funds don't have to keep getting re-deposited as timeouts get hit
13:39 < bramc> from the lightning paper
13:40 < zooko> gmaxwell: Sweet. ☺
13:40 < bramc> gmaxwell, Going through this exercise has given me a new appreciation for how critical having winner take all is no mining
13:40 < bramc> on mining
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13:42 < bramc> I think I'll need to sit down with Joe Poon in person and discuss, the paper is fairly opaque.
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14:36 < bramc> The monero project web page isn't praticularly helpful or confidence inspiring. Is there a web page which has a straightforward writeup on how it uses ring signatures?
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14:42 < bramc> The cryptonote white paper sort of talks about it, it seems like the sum total of the whole thing is to make a bunch of counterparties agree on a ring signature and then all send equal sized payments to that ring signature and spend them at their leisure later
14:43 < bramc> Which honestly seems like an anonymity loss, since utxo signature are one time anyway all that did was link those all together. Maybe it's a bit more convenient than making transactions for unlinking.
14:45 < gmaxwell> there is no agreements.
14:45 < bramc> gmaxwell, Thanks, that makes sense. A fun crypto gizmo though.
14:46 < gmaxwell> there is a UTXO set. You can gather N UTXO of the same value and sign so that your signature shows you're signing on behalf of one of the N.  A side effect of the signature is a serial number which is unique per utxo that you're actually spending, that only the signer can compute but which everyone can verify.
14:46 < gmaxwell> So your input has an anonymity set the size of the ring*, and the signature size is linear in the size of the ring.   (*) there are varrious factors that can reduce the anonymity set further.
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14:47 < bramc> What's to stop someone from double spending the utxo?
14:47 < bramc> Shouldn't it have to go through an intermediary step, where I transfer the utxo to a ring-signature-unlocked utxo?
14:49 < Eliel> bramc: cryptonote method does not require any cooperation between individual users. The whole idea of the ring signature it's based on is that you can prove that you're one member of a group but not specify which member.
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14:49 < gmaxwell> bramc: that unique serial number.
14:50 < gmaxwell> bramc: the serial number gets stored and the system prevents any duplicate serial numbers, so no double spend is possible.
14:50 < bramc> But you still have an input utxo, and input utxos need to be mixed to prevent double spends
14:50 < Eliel> bramc: umm no, the group is formed from different input utxos.
14:51 < Eliel> and the signature proves that you know the private key to one of them
14:51 < bramc> gmaxwell, oh, so spending the original utxo would require the same serial number?
14:51 < gmaxwell> yep!
14:51 < bramc> Aaah, that makes it a lot more useful
14:51 < gmaxwell> You've got it. Yea, I'd tried prior to cryptonote stuff to use ringsigs for privacy and failed due to that issue... the that linkability is the extra part that makes it all work.
14:52 < Eliel> as long as your private key doesn't leak, your privacy can't be broken.
14:54 < Eliel> it took me a while to understand how the crypto works but it was worth the time :)
14:55 < bramc> It does make it a bit more difficult to have a list of unspent utxos :-P
14:55 < Eliel> was kind of amusing to see that cryptonote signatures consist of mostly random numbers :)
14:55 < Eliel> bramc: yep, instead you need to keep a list of spent utxo serials.
14:56 < bramc> Eliel, and a list of all utxos which have existed ever
14:57 < Eliel> yep, gmaxwell and andytoshi had a solution for that IIRC but I can't recall the details right now
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14:59 < bramc> So then you can use snarks to show that a particular serial came out of the list of all utxos of a particular value which have ever existed?
14:59 < bramc> Is that what zerocoin does?
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15:01 < gmaxwell> yes, thats what zero_cash_ does.  There is a TXO tree H(serial||nonce) and you prove the TXO tree contains the serial you're claiming to spend.
15:01 < brisque> cnutgktcrblthhktvcvihhfncvncvrvg
15:01 < brisque> ._.
15:01 < brisque> sorry.
15:02 < Eliel> brisque needs a new password :)
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15:04 < bramc> Of course, if you're going that way you can dispense with the ring signature completely and make the 'signature' be a hash preimage reveal
15:04 < MRL-Relay> [othe] bramc, did u check MRL-0003 ? it explains that stuff u are asking about https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0003.pdf, theres also a python ringsignature port on github
15:05 < bramc> What is this mrl relay thing?
15:05 < MRL-Relay> [othe] just a relay bot from monero irc to freenode
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15:06 < bramc> Thanks othe
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15:08 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: what curve is the blockstream challenge using? Or should that not matter?
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15:08 < brisque> I would be shocked if it wasn't secp256k
15:09 < gmaxwell> it's secp256k1.. the signatures are just old style armory signatures.
15:09 < justanotheruser> ok thanks
15:09 < gmaxwell> I need to put a sage script up that verifies them, seems a lot of people expect them to be invalid.
15:10 < bramc> gmaxwell, what did you mean about there being progress?
15:11 < justanotheruser> If they were invalid then that would be a dumb puzzle
15:11 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: yea, thats my thinking too!
15:12 < justanotheruser> though it would be a great troll
15:12 < gmaxwell> bramc: that larger participants gain more advantage. But I see that you're expecting participants to share their progress. I understand now that you're basically instutionalizing some of the strategic mining we'd talked about before.
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15:13 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yeah it's institutionalizing it but capping it at a small fixed number of generations in
15:14 < bramc> And yeah, the idea is to make the cooperation squeeze out anyone who tries to form their own separate pool
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15:20 < bramc> Funny thing, zerocash has some clear benefits in terms of having a relatively small block chain
15:20 < bramc> Because all the public keys are just secure hashes
15:22 < brisque> aren't their proofs absolutely massive?
15:22 < tromp> 288 bytes
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15:23 < bramc> I guess it's like using p2sh and overall winds up being a little bit bigger
15:24 < gmaxwell> it's completely unprunable though.
15:24 < bramc> unprunable?
15:25 < gmaxwell> right now you only need <1GB stroage to run a bitcoin full node, because there is no need to retain the past history.
15:25 < bramc> Oh, you mean zerocash. Yes, it has similar problems to cryptonote but worse
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15:25 < bramc> That appears to be inherent in the design goals.
15:26 < gmaxwell> Well the cryptonote stuff is unprunable and the signatures are pretty big (well, only a bit bigger than zerocash proofs, I guess).
15:26 < bramc> The signatures are arbitrarily large, aren't they?
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15:26 < bramc> Because you can throw in any number of other things into your set
15:27 < gmaxwell> At least in the ZC paper though they require multiple proofs per transaction if you have more than 2 inputs 2 outputs, so 288 is kind of a lower bound (though with more circuits more cases could be covered with a single proof)
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15:27 < gmaxwell> bramc: yes, the signatures are linear in the ring size.
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15:34 < justanotheruser> oh now I feel dumb, I just realized the signature blocks had addresses in them
15:35 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: ?
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15:37 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: I asked the curve type for the blockstream challenge, but the fact that it records addresses makes it quite obvious that it's secp256k1
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15:54 < adlai> [compressed] addresses don't reveal which curve is being used?
15:54 < adlai> especially not after ripemd160...
15:55  * adlai has encountered a patent violation: https://github.com/krkhan/cl-ecc/blob/master/ecdsa.lisp#L29
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15:57 < gmaxwell> adlai: uh. I'm not sure why you're saying that; (there is a lot of misinformation about whats actually patented; most patents are _far_ narrower than the general public thinks they are)
15:58 < gmaxwell> adlai: the point about the addresses is that it would be really screwy to have a bitcoin address on something that wasn't actually a bitcoin address, not that its impossible but it would certantly be messed up to do otherwise.
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15:58  * adlai might be taking djb's joke (from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jTFxQaUJA ) too literally
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16:03 < gmaxwell> Yes, you were.
16:03 < gmaxwell> (you might also not be aware but all the ed25519 signature verification code also verifies that the pubkey is on the curve; https://github.com/floodyberry/ed25519-donna/blob/master/ed25519.c#L100 e.g.)
16:05 < gmaxwell> DJB is great, but he's somewhat sloppy in his descriptions for lay-people-- esp on the curve25519 tare, where he's really promoting it over the kinda-awful brainpool curves-- in ways that may not be all that helpful.
16:07 < gmaxwell> Presumably he was talking about the montgomery ladder trick for avoiding to have to check if a point is on the curve for twist secure curves. It's only applicable to ECDH.  For signature verification you're doing a multi-exp, and you also don't care about constant timeness. The non-montgomery version is enormously faster.
16:09 < gmaxwell> (also, incidentally, the montgomery-ladder trick works for any curve, given a bit of algebra to work out the equaltions for the known difference updates... though it's only reasonable to use for twist-secure curves, but many curves are twist secure including secp256k1 and NIST P256)
16:09 < gmaxwell> equations*
16:16 < adlai> is 'why secp256k1?' a welcome question here?
16:16 < hearn> adlai: nobody knows
16:16 < hearn> adlai: it was, however, a lucky choice.
16:17 < adlai> ok, what about 'how does the switch happen', when railroading time ends?
16:17 < gmaxwell> adlai: huh?
16:18 < adlai> isn't it reasonable to expect that this curve will eventually be broken, especially with more attention on it due to its role in bitcoin?
16:18 < hearn> railway time was one of the victorian era's great inventions
16:18 < hearn> it led directly to the modern notion of timezones
16:18 < hearn> adlai: fortunately for the world, cryptography does not work quite like that.
16:19 < hearn> adlai: if we wanted to switch to another curve, it'd be the same as any other forking change. everyone upgrades their software. anyway, this isn't really a #wizards level discussion, i'm afraid.
16:20 < gmaxwell> adlai: Not unless there is some fundimental mathmathical breakthrough, which would likely render all (or at least a significant fraction of all) curves of similar sizes insecure.
16:20 < adlai> 'railroading time' is a heinlein reference, http://www.hjkeen.net/halqn/dor2sumr.htm#rrd
16:20 < brisque> hearn: wouldn't it be a soft fork?
16:20 < gmaxwell> adlai: Bitcoin script is forward compatible and new features can be introduced fairly easily (even without upgrading all users); e.g. p2sh added effectively a whole new scripting system (which happened to be the same as the old one, just nested inside a hash)
16:21 < brisque> (assuming "weakened", not "8 bits of security")
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16:21 < gmaxwell> if there were some great need to, an opt in new cryptosystem could probably be deployed in a few weeks time.
16:22 < adlai> the event would reveal which utxos are cared about by their owners
16:22 < gmaxwell> you can care without paying attention or without having a clue. :)
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16:23 < gmaxwell> (else you might say all these people who've reused revealed pubkeys care less; in that they're much more exposed to fanciful EC attacks; but I don't think that its true that they care less)
16:23 < hearn> for some very low value of "care". when we had to do a crash key rotation due to the android SecureRandom bugs, the wallets were auto updated and automatically respent the users funds back to themselves.
16:24 < hearn> not all users were even aware it was happening until after the fact.
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16:24 < adlai> aha, that's the kind of process i was curious about... this is indeed more of a #bitcoin question.
16:28 < bramc> It used to be that people talked about cryptosystems expiring due to their key lengths being taken over by moore's law. Current key lengths should be enough to last forever though.
16:29 < brisque> or until the US starts restricting them again.
16:29 < gmaxwell> bramc: yes, they won't expire due to moore's law.
16:29 < gmaxwell> they'll quite possibly expire due to other things.
16:30 < bramc> Well, presumably they'll expire due to better systems being built which people switch to.
16:30 < bramc> At least, hope they do. Otherwise you have DNS.
16:30 < gmaxwell> Sadly, an asymetric cryptosystem which can provably expire no faster than computer speed increases is sufficent to prove P != NP, so I don't think we'll be seeing one of those anytime soon. :)
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16:34 < bramc> We can't prove much of anything about our symmetric ciphers either
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16:35 < gmaxwell> Well some symmetric ciphers you can prove things about.
16:36 < gmaxwell> For example, anything that is a complete permutation and used in a mode where the key is the same size as the data, can have information theoretic security.
16:37 < bramc> Information theory, yes. You can also prove reductions.
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16:39 < gmaxwell> and even for conventional usage you don't get a tidy reduction to P!=NP.. e.g. even if you could prove your block cipher had the property that given two plaintext, ciphertext pairs one could not efficiently recover a key the size of the block... that doesn't prove that P!=NP, because it just may mean that the inputs don't form a basis that lets you recover the key.   most asymetric crypto though,
16:39 < gmaxwell>  if you can prove the key can't be recovered efficiently you _directly_ have a proof that P!=NP.
16:41 < adlai> oh, here's another off-topic question: should i study math or computer science, if i want to be less useless in such discussions?
16:41  * adlai would be glad to take this elsewhere / pm, shuts up now
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16:42 < gmaxwell> Both?  Really depends on where you're talking about. Some CS programs are very mathy and others are very 'java webtoys lol'.
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16:45 < adlai> probably germany, frei wenn sie sprechen es
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16:52 < rusty> gmaxwell: I gather you're discouraging open discussion of your half puzzles, in the short term?
16:53 < gwillen> rusty: there are people discussing them, but those of us who haven't had a chance to work on them yet would probably encourage avoiding spoilers :-)
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16:54 < rusty> gwillen: fair enough.  I'm hoping to find some spare cycles to tinker on the weekend.  Not that I'll make progress, but at least I'll learn something :)
16:55  * gwillen nodnod
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16:58 < maaku> adlai: at my university computer science was part of the math department
16:59 < maaku> really, study both. it's two sides of the same coin
16:59 < maaku> if you're asking what major you should have, then that depends on your career goals and is OT
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17:02 < ajweiss> there are also different types of math taught out of different departments
17:02 -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:03 < ajweiss> statistics vs. pure math vs. linear systems (applied math) vs. ...
17:07 < adlai> relevance towards 'crypto' https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-02-28/?msg=33061842&page=3
17:08 < andytoshi> adlai: if you are looking for academic/educational advice you can pm me
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17:26 < bramc> I think with my new idea withholding attacks aren't stable because members of the coalition doing the withholding are incented to cheat
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17:30 < gmaxwell> rusty: I updated the page to include a note that the signatures are valid.  Seems many people thought they needed to find some bitflips to make them valid.
17:30 < bramc> Coinshuffle seems like a neat thing but it doesn't solve the hard problem, which is forming the groups in the first place
17:31 < gmaxwell> s/forming the groups in the first place/writing usable applications to make use of these techniques/  :)
17:31 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yes exactly
17:31 < rusty> gmaxwell: Oh, I was just hacking together some utils, decided to check that you're weren't pulling a meta-joke.  Result was a wild goose chase, but I got to learn something.
17:32 < belcher_> if you're interested in coinjoin, check out joinmarket which im working on right now, it forms those groups by paying people
17:33 < gmaxwell> rusty: bitcoin.ninja has a sage notebook for secp256k1 ecdsa signatures.  I'm fond of sage for random number theory noodling.
17:34 < gmaxwell> (sage's EC is super slow, but it's a decent pocket calculator for this stuff; and since its python there is very little learning curve)
17:38 < rusty> gmaxwell: great, now I have *10* tabs open awaiting reading!
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17:40 < hearn> is is there a written description of satoshi's knapsack coin selection algorithm anywhere?
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17:43 < hearn> specifically, why it attempts to optimise for what it does
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17:46 < bramc> Huh this is weird, the Mixcoin paper doesn't seem to use simultaneous transfer
17:47 < bramc> https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/077.pdf
17:47 < gmaxwell> bramc: the mixcoin stuff is 'accountable' instead of secure.
17:48 < bramc> gmaxwell, I get that, but why not be secure?
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17:49 < bramc> Also I'm not so sure that maxing explicit mixes is such a hot idea. If you've got a slightly trusted mix they can do a better job of keeping info off the block chain by maintaining some amount of working capital
17:49 < gmaxwell> I believe the work started prior to people being aware of coinjoin/coinswap; and potentially you could get better or at least different forms of privacy without that constraint.
17:49 < bramc> So they can do things like hand over a coin they got from somebody else without splitting or joining it as part of the change-making process
17:50 < bramc> I don't think coinswap hurts anything if you're doing it with a mixing third party
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17:50 < brisque> bramc: put some more thought into it.
17:51 < gmaxwell> (I generally don't think the accountable but not secure approach is likely to be pratically useful; because the reputation required for it to work makes it especially vulnerable to being backdoored and also suggests a fee structure that discourages use except by criminals, and criminal use increases backdooring risk, yadda yadda)
17:51 < bramc> brisque, You'll have to say more than that to have any hope of convincing me
17:51 < gmaxwell> Indeed, I don't think coinswap implies any particular constraints that are annoying.
17:52 < gmaxwell> But its even less well known than coinjoin.
17:54 < bramc> Yeah, the things which are and aren't well known are a bit strange
17:54 < bramc> starting with how few journalists know that mining burns resources :-P
17:55 < gmaxwell> most people don't think of computers consuming energy at all.. considering that a single desktop is pretty modest to most home appliances that you think of as consuming energy. :)
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18:03 < moa> resource allocation, substitution, pricing, usage is a substantial but underdeveloped area of economics with simplistic quantification ... e.g. find a rigorous definition of what a "resource" is?
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