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07:07 < kanzure> amiller: petertodd seems to think he heard MPC too,
07:07 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/574633652535033856
07:07 < yoleaux> Zerocash will soon have a MPC protocol to make the trusted setup a distributed calc where just one participant needs to be honest. #MITBTC15 (@petertoddbtc)
07:07 < amiller> kanzure, you're confused :o petertodd is right but there's no conflcit
07:08 < amiller> madars said both PCP and MPC, at different times, in different contexts!
07:09 < amiller> Zerocash *will* soon have an MPC setup protocol where one participant needs to be honest..... another theoretically possible approach is to use PCP, but thats infeasible for now its a research horizon topic
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07:11 < kanzure> "madars said both PCP and MPC, at different times, in different contexts!" oh man, hard mode... geeze. alright.
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08:05 < instagibbs> is the implication that all n-on-n would have to collude to break the MPC solution?
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08:07 < instagibbs> slash compromised, whatever
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08:18 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] that's what they said, yeah. if only one party destroys all their contribution, it's supposedly secure.
08:19 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] of course you still have the other ZRC problems with obscurity (if there's a bug in the system being exploited to create/steal coins, no one else is able to see that).
08:23 < fluffypony> yeah that's the problem with bleeding-edge cryptography, some 15 year old kid comes along and finds an implementation exploit...except with this nobody would (ostensibly) ever know
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08:23 < instagibbs> fluffypony: if they're smart they won't inflate the money too bad :P
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08:24 < fluffypony> so just a slow, comfortable retirement on their yacht instead :-P
08:24 < instagibbs> Assuming a large enough economy, yeah, no one would be able to tell.
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08:25 < fluffypony> still, I think it's fascinating research
08:25 < instagibbs> I think it's a decent tradeoff tbh
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08:25 < fluffypony> what, the exploit risk?
08:25 < sipa> fascinating != useful != production ready
08:26 < fluffypony> sipa: agreed
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08:26 < instagibbs> no one said otherwise
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08:28 < instagibbs> the other big issue, from what I understand, when you want to soft/hard fork you have to regenerate the secret again. So fixing anything would require a centralized genesis-block-like event.
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08:28 < fluffypony> ouch
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08:29 < instagibbs> Which again, people may put up with for sidechain/embedded consensus side-system, but makes it quite unlikely as a Bitcoin-proper solution ever.
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09:54 < fluffypony> https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rebranding-and-scalability.4254/
09:54 < fluffypony> "Eventually Gavin Andresen sees blocks getting to 100MB+, with tens of thousands of transactions per block. After giving it some thought, I came up with a scalable architecture that supports billions of transactions per day."
09:54 < fluffypony> "This strategy is just too good to let sit for very long and I need to do some exploratory coding to prove it works."
09:55 < fluffypony> that's it guys, it's over, we can all go home
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09:58 < instagibbs> not even worth making fun of
10:00 < skittylx> fluffypony: after some thought I came up with an invention that turns farts into gold dust. Can't promise it will work though.
10:00 < petertodd> instagibbs: "soft/hard fork" <- only types of forks that change the ZK proofs; *lots* of stuff doesn't change them and lets you reuse the trusted setup, so much so you can take that single trusted setup and re-use it for multiple different purposes
10:00 < fluffypony> skittylx: do some exploratory dusting and let us know how it goes
10:00 < instagibbs> peter
10:00 < justanotheruser> this darkcoin guy is a genius
10:01 < instagibbs> petertodd: thanks for the correction.
10:01 < petertodd> fluffypony: it would be awesome if they implement that so we can make it explode
10:01 < fluffypony> justanotheruser: it's time for his last pump before he cashes out
10:01 < instagibbs> I don't know the snarks enough to know what rulechanges would change the snark structure
10:01 < fluffypony> petertodd: seconded
10:02 < petertodd> instagibbs: I surprised matt green last year when I pointed out that a much better strategy politically speaking would have been do make zerocash be initially a ZK credentials or something project that Just Happened(TM) to be reusable for currency
10:02 < justanotheruser> in the entire history of civilization, we have only had distributed consensus for 6 years. In those 6 years he has obsoleted bitcoins consensus system with his system that has instant confirmations. He even has video proof of his client saying 6 confirmations after less than 2 seconds. Now he can make it scale infinitely? Geeze
10:02 < instagibbs> what are the extend of soft/hard forks possible without re-doing the secret? Give a ballpark idea?
10:02 < petertodd> fluffypony: reading that post makes me think we need to make a combination markov chain generator that combines alt-coin pumps with audiophile crap
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10:03 < fluffypony> LOL
10:03 < sipa> petertodd: we need a coingengen for that
10:03 < instagibbs> did you read the "specs"?
10:03 < petertodd> sipa: coingen^n
10:03 < instagibbs> "Zero-centralization" <--- there ya go
10:03 < petertodd> instagibbs: for instance, you can fork the entire coin and make a whole new one...
10:04 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg10310458#msg10310458
10:04 < fluffypony> clearly there are no incentives for masternodes to attack each other
10:04 < petertodd> fluffypony: not when they're all run by the same people!
10:04 < fluffypony> lol!
10:04 < instagibbs> petertodd: let me ask the reverse: what can't be done :P
10:05 < petertodd> instagibbs: changing the basic ZK primative; notable that probably *doesn't* include changes to how you authorize a ZK transaction
10:05 < justanotheruser> petertodd: speaking of, haven't you consulted for a lot of altcoins?
10:06 < petertodd> justanotheruser: that's actually a myth - lots *want* me to consult for them, but nailing down acceptable contracts has proven to be tough
10:06 < justanotheruser> what is acceptable, a matter of money or a lack of scamminess?
10:06 < petertodd> justanotheruser: my standard contract lets me publish the results of any reviews...
10:07 < justanotheruser> I mean, it is reasonable that you did an audit of litecoin since it is probably better that they fail organically than through a bug..
10:07 < sipa> petertodd: i assume you also demand payment in something else than the altcoin currency? :p
10:07 < justanotheruser> thats a smart way to do it I suppose
10:07 < petertodd> sipa: yeah, some try to pull that stunt too
10:07 < instagibbs> sipa: how do you think ICO's work? :P
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10:09 < petertodd> sipa: litecoin was very clever about it: paid me in bitcoin, then gave me an unexpected bonus in litecoin, with the condition that I not spend it until a few months later to incentivise me not to attack litecoin :)
10:11 < sipa> heh
10:11 < sipa> nice one
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11:53 < gmaxwell> http://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2015/03/exploiting-dram-rowhammer-bug-to-gain.html "Exploiting the DRAM rowhammer bug to gain kernel privileges"
11:53 < sipa> ... that looks like a hardware bug
11:54 < gmaxwell> Yep. Though a common one.  I note that some of the more recent server atom stuff has very fine control of dram behavior in bios, and you can back of the timings to make them super conservative, which should help defend against this sort of thing.
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12:17 < hearn> hello
12:18 < hearn> "“Rowhammer” is a problem with some recent DRAM devices in which repeatedly accessing a row of memory can cause bit flips in adjacent rows"
12:18 < hearn> boggle
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12:18 < jcorgan> didn't we first hear about this a few months ago?
12:19 < sipa> i definitely never heard about it
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12:19 < hearn> right, this is news to me as well
12:19 < sipa> i remember attacks with data remaining available in DRAM chips after poweroff
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12:20 < hearn> it seems the most interesting sandbox to escape out of would be Xen
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12:25 < jcorgan> i'll have to search, but i thought I had heard of the bit flipping issue a while back.  maybe this is just the first published exploit.
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12:41 < sipa> apparently rowhammer was indeed public before; i hadn't heard about it
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12:42 < gwillen> there was a paper about it some time ago, but without any proof of concept exploit
12:42 < gwillen> less than a year ago, I think
12:43 < gmaxwell> yea, it was public before but the paper only measured their ability to cause errors, not actually applying it for escilation.
12:43 < gmaxwell> (I linked to that paper in here too)
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12:45 < gmaxwell> 14:51 <@gmaxwell> On today's expisode of eveything is broken and we're doomed. http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~yoonguk/papers/kim-isca14.pdf
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12:49 < jcorgan> that was the one
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12:57 < maaku> so rowhammer has been out a year, and for me this is the first I've heard of it too. is there any mitigation techniques?
12:57 < hearn> they discuss some at the end of the blog post
12:58 < hearn> tl;dr yes, if you happen to be a DRAM manufacturer. if not then there are BIOS updates that make it slower to exploit but don't fix it
12:58 < hearn> (sometimes)
12:59 < hearn> it seems that some DRAM makers are already advertising that their chips don't have this problem. but i guess there's not much that can be done now except wait years for the previous bad chips to fail and be replaced.
13:01 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] yeah i was going to say, this was most recently fixed in DDR4.
13:02 < gwillen> I've seen it suggested that linux could mitigate this by limiting the ability of user allocations to end up too close to kernel allocations in the relevant metric
13:02 < gwillen> but I don't know if that works out to be possible
13:02 < gmaxwell> as I mentioned, on some of the newer server boards there are extensive timing controls and you can back off the settings to really conservative values.
13:03 < gmaxwell> otherwise: don't run code from mixed security domains on the same hardware
13:03 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] well... they do have to get the user to run some arbitrary code that does this in the first place. and if you've failed that test, it's all over even in the simplest case.
13:04 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] hrm. i wonder, can you VM escape on a VPS then too with this, for any general VPS?
13:05 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] because that's actually pretty bad.
13:06 < Luke-Jr> what is MRL-Relay?
13:07 < sipa> Monero Research Labs relay
13:07 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] yeah. freenode is anal about tor connections.
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13:19 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] gmaxwell: figure 4 from the paper is pretty ugly. it looks like you can't get down to 0 errors without decreasing the refresh interval to 16 ms (four fold), and that won't solve it for 100% of manufacturers even. i guess if you're running a server you could crank the refresh timing and memtest to make sure it's not doing anything crazy.
13:20 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] if i'm reading it correctly.
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14:47 < gmaxwell> tacotime: IIRC ECC memory is largely protective.
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14:47 < gmaxwell> I think we're all crazy whenever we use non-ECC systems for anything important. Bitflips are absolutely observable at current memory densities, if you're actually looking.
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14:57 < hearn> tacotime: yes i would imagine you can break out of Xen and other hypervisors with such an attack
14:58 < hearn> assuming you can run native code
14:59 < hearn> if you can't generate the clflush instruction it probably is a lot harder to do that
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15:26 < petertodd> gmaxwell: is there a ECC ram laptop on the market?
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15:28 < BlueMatt> petertodd: macbook pro
15:29 < sipa> orly?
15:29 < petertodd> BlueMatt: oh nice
15:29 < brisque> I don't think that's right
15:29 < BlueMatt> orrrr....I think so?
15:29 < BlueMatt> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202892
15:29 < brisque> the mac pro does, the macbook pro doesn't
15:30 < sipa> mac pro, not macbook pro
15:30 < BlueMatt> oh, I'm tripping
15:30 < BlueMatt> nvm
15:30 < BlueMatt> yea
15:30 < BlueMatt> somehow i thought it did :(
15:30 < sipa> you know, the trashcan
15:30 < BlueMatt> lol
15:30 < brisque> it's a pretty trash can though
15:30 < sipa> not the tin foil
15:30 < petertodd> too bad
15:42 < gmaxwell> petertodd: that was part of how I phrased the statement "we're all crazy whenever we use"
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15:43 < gmaxwell> Apparently someone is holding a "blockchain workshop" at stanford later in this month. Have any of you been invited to it?
15:43 < petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm going
15:43 < brisque> that would be fun. a linux distro designed to run simultaneously on multiple computers and diff the results, NASA redundancy style.
15:44 < petertodd> gmaxwell: probably going to go to sf this friday actually
15:44 < gmaxwell> Cool.
15:44 < gmaxwell> I'm a bit irritated that some people holding workshops in this space seem to do a bad job reaching out into the bitcoin ecosystem, and I'm trying to calibrate my level of irritation.
15:44 < jcorgan> "blockchain workshop" sounds awfully...backwards
15:45 < petertodd> gmaxwell: it's a legal-focused workshop, not tech the way you're thinking
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15:45 < brisque> jcorgan: it's all about the blockchain technology.
15:45 < petertodd> gmaxwell: they reached out to me because they know I'm familiar with that side of the ecosystem
15:45 < amiller> im not going but elaine shi is
15:46 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: well so, some people doing this stuff have already been flamed for holding "bitcoin workshops" and then having 9/10 people be bitcoin competing systems; so now it's blockchain workshops. :)
15:46 < brisque> ouch
15:46 < petertodd> yeah, the workshop agenda is not bitcoin focused
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15:46 < petertodd> saying "blockchain" is very accurate
15:46 < petertodd> hell - "crypto finance" might be more accurate
15:47 < brisque> petertodd: sort of playing into the hands of "decentralise everything with a blockchain" though
15:47 < jcorgan> be sure to bring your hip waders
15:47 < petertodd> brisque: like I say, it's a legal workshop - that's completely appropriate and what they're trying to explore - it's all researchers after all
15:47 < brisque> jcorgan: those things you use to walk into swamps?
15:47 < moa> so what kind of work do they do at workshops?
15:47 < petertodd> brisque: it's the kind of thing where inviting a sci-fi author *would* be 100% reasonable
15:48 < gmaxwell> brisque: in this case 'research' is mostly the 'disconnected from reality' sense of the word. :)
15:49 < petertodd> gmaxwell: nah, actually a lot of this stuff is very connected to reality, and ends up using the tech in very realistic and actually kinda boring ways
15:54 < skittylx> How does a double spend attempt even happen 30 hours later? https://blockchain.info/tx-index/79946788
15:55 < brisque> skittylx: OT #bitcoin
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16:53 < bramc> Can people see me here?
16:53 < bsm117532> yes
16:53 < bsm117532> Read something by you yesterday...can't remember what it was...
16:55 < bramc> Oh good. I'm being ghetto and getting on using monero's irc web client because freenode won't let me join directly because I'm on cellular because it's better than the net connection here in the cafe
16:56 < hearn> they ban cell phone connections?
16:56  * bramc shaves a yak for good measure
16:56 < brisque> hearn: I know hurricane electric bans IRC :<
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16:57 < bramc> hearn, freenode in general has some policy about you having to use somethingorother from a 'suspicious' IP, which apparently includes my mobile carrier
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16:57 < bramc> I'm not willing to sign up for a new account on freenode at this point, so web gateway it is
16:59 < bsm117532> Lots of ISP's ban irc.
16:59 < bramc> Although I have to say, this web interface is entirely usable, and this channel doesn't seem to have any problems with needing to ban people and the like, or at least it's not my problem.
16:59 < bsm117532> It's how you control your botnet, we know bram.
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16:59 < bramc> bsm117532, this is a freenode policy, nothing about my net
16:59 < gmaxwell> Freenode's behavior is really crappy. They're super agressive with these broad bans that don't stop _that_ much abuse, and simultaniously powerless to stop a 14 year old kid with a botnet. Kind of worst of all worlds. Oh well. No use debating it here.
17:01 < bramc> gmaxwell:I told freenode to go fuck themselves after they blew away my account for having been inactive for too long and obliterated all permissions it had and were as a matter of policy unresponsive to attempts to fix it so that *somebody* had admin
17:02 < bramc> I was told afterwards that their reputation had long since gone into the gutter and a bunch of people had left freenode to form oftc
17:03 < gmaxwell> Gnome and Xiph.Org had moved off freenode onto an IRC network we created (that we ran for about a decade) because freenode staff interfeared with our fundraising meetings, trying to tell people they should _instead_ donate to freenode because it supports all these projects.
17:03 < bramc> I personally am perfectly well served using this here web interface
17:03 < gmaxwell> But in more recent times freenode has been better.
17:03 < brisque> I'd say I'd run a bitcoin-related IRC server, but I don't really think my mailbox would enjoy being stuffed with subpoenas every time someone does something moronic.
17:03 < gmaxwell> yea, running an IRC network sucks. I wouldn't recommend it. (having done so in the past!)
17:03 < bsm117532> There's always bitmessage
17:04 < gmaxwell> IRC protocol encourages abuse in a number of ways.
17:04 < brisque> bsm117532: haha
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17:05 < brisque> bitmessage is.. not what I'd want to be using to communicate.
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17:06 < bramc> The only problem with bitmessage is that it's public. OTR should fix that
17:06 < bramc> (that was a joke)
17:07 < hearn> group chat isn't that hard to implement. a version that used proofs-of-sacrifice to control abuse would be a fun project.
17:07 < bsm117532> Someone gets my jokes
17:08 < bsm117532> OTR is fucking cool too.
17:08 < hearn> of course getting people to use it would be hard. freenode is, well ..... free.
17:08 < hearn> and works well enough most of the time.
17:08 < bramc> Back on topic, there's a general consensus among developers that the way to scale bitcoin is with some kind of net settlement, either micropayment channels or sidechains or both
17:08 < justanotheruser> OTR should fix bitmessage?
17:08 < justanotheruser> doesn't its design prohibit OTR?
17:09 < bramc> justanotheruser:OTR can work over any asynchronous messaging channel
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17:10 < justanotheruser> right, you could just flood otr messages.
17:10 < bramc> A funny thing about that consensus, which I agree with, is that it isn't explained very clearly anywhere, you have to go talk to bitcoin developers for a while to figure that out
17:11 < hearn> bramc: why do you think that is the consensus? i don't think gavin believes that, nor do i
17:11 < bramc> hearn:so what is your opinion of how scaling for bitcoin should be addressed?
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17:11 < hearn> bramc: same as gavins. optimise optimise optimise.
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17:12 < bramc> You can optimize and start charging real transaction fees. That will get you maybe an order of magnitude.
17:13 < hearn> just one? bitcoin already scaled through three orders of magnitude with the only real optimisations being SPV mode and internal optimisations in Core to make indexing faster (e.g. ultraprune)
17:13 < bramc> hearn:there's a hard limit on transactions per second because of the block size limit
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17:14 < hearn> yes, obviously this discussion is assuming that is removed.
17:14 < bramc> I'm not assuming it's removed. I'm assuming it needs to be worked around.
17:14 < hearn> why?
17:15 < bramc> Because keeping running a full bitcoin node reasonably lightweight is important functionality
17:16 < hearn> go watch gavin's talk at the MIT conf that just happened
17:16 < justanotheruser> bramc: how is changing transaction fees a scaling improvemnet
17:16 < bramc> hearn:got a link for that?
17:17 < bramc> justanotheruser:it gets rid of spam garbage and gets people to do easy optimizations in their own stuff
17:17 < skittylx> bramc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ULlHhia_Q
17:18 < skittylx> first talk
17:18 < hearn> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/keynote-gavin-andresen/
17:20 < skittylx> bramc: read peter todd's for contrast. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/peter-todd-scalability/
17:20 < bramc> Thanks, I found it while y'all were posting
17:22 < justanotheruser> bramc: It only gets spammers to compete with transactors as they always have been?
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17:27 < jcorgan> scalability is usually solved by an emergent hierarchy
17:28 < jcorgan> sidechains seem the first missing piece of the pie that would enable that
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17:33 < bramc> jcorgan:micropayment channels can possibly do it as well
17:33 < instagibbs> scaling up (specifically increasing blocksize) is fraught with politics. Now with blockstream esp I'm guessing they are shy at weighing in quite as much
17:33 < instagibbs> probably why you don't see a ton of it from these guys. Peter isn't quite so shy
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17:34 < bramc> justanotheruser:If a spammer wants to pay the transaction fees they can do that. Past tricks for getting the spam under control are things like making transactions for larger amounts of coin and older transactions take priority, which are obviously short-term hacks
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17:37 < bramc> Reading Gavin's talk now. Can schnorr signatures even be done with a soft fork?
17:38 < gmaxwell> of course.
17:38 < justanotheruser> bramc: I don't understand your argument unless you think a higher ratio of transactors:spammers will pay high fees than low fees
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17:39 < instagibbs> bramc: almost anything can be
17:39 < instagibbs> maybe not strictly true, but a lot more than I thought can
17:39 < bramc> justanotheruser:presumably the spam is of low value, so it would stop being done if transaction fees were higher
17:40 < bramc> justanotheruser:the block size limit can't be raised with a soft fork
17:40 < justanotheruser> was that 2nd messaged directed at me?
17:41 < justanotheruser> also, the block space limit can be raised with a softfork, however.
17:41 < bramc> I ask about schnorr signatures because it isn't obvious that old clients will even be able to parse at that point. I do need to read through the reference in detail though.
17:42 < bramc> Sorry, meant for that second message to be directed to instagibbsagibbs
17:42 < instagibbs> it's much like p2sh rollout, most likely. "free money" lying around, for some reason you can't take
17:42 < brisque> adding new signature types isn't a problem really, we could add OP_LAMPORTVERIFY if it was so desirable
17:42 < brisque> wouldn't work well with rampant key re-use in bitcoin, but it would operate just fine
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17:43 < justanotheruser> bramc: I recommend reading BIP12 if you want to understand how the scripting system can basically be redefined in any way with a softfork including adding opcodes.
17:43 < kanzure> disclaimer: i make no claims of accuracy of those transcripts. often i replaced the speaker's opinions with my own when they were obviously broken. (well, not so often.)
17:43 < bramc> It's my impression that old clients flat reject too-big blocks without even parsing them, which would make raising that limit require a hard fork
17:44 < instagibbs> the block would be embedded, with miners rejecting blocks that don't have the correct block extension (my guess)
17:44 < brisque> bramc: reject and ban, yes.
17:45 < gmaxwell> bramc: technically the block size limit can be raised with a soft fork, though its quite ugly.
17:45 < bramc> kanzure:Do you use transcription software for this or do you type fast?
17:46 < bramc> Oh I see about the block size limit. That is ugly. Extremely ugly.
17:46 < kanzure> bramc: i type fast http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
17:48 < bramc> kanzure:those stats make my fingers hurt
17:50 < justanotheruser> kanzure: fake
17:50 < phantomcircuit> <gmaxwell> otherwise: don't run code from mixed security domains on the same hardware
17:50 < phantomcircuit> that's the winning answer for sure
17:51 < bramc> There are really two levels of soft fork. The harder one breaks SPV on older nodes
17:51 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, also lots of people holding these events have absolutely zero clue
17:52 < instagibbs> bramc: hm? you mean you'll miss out on funds?
17:52 < brisque> kanzure: damn, I can only get ~100 on a good day.
17:52 < kanzure> bramc: i definitely think there needs to be better public documentation about the known types and examples of variations on soft forks and hard forks.
17:53 < bramc> instagibbs:meaning an old node can't tell you what's spent any more. That would happen with a block size increasing 'soft' fork
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17:53 < instagibbs> bramc: correct, spv nodes can already be hampered by lying through omission, this would just extend it in a sense
17:55 < instagibbs> I've been meaning to write something on it softforks, but havent gotten past a really rough writeup, busy with job search. maybe after
17:56 < bramc> Fixing the malleability problem properly would also be an extremely problematic 'soft' fork
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17:57 < instagibbs> that's a conceptually "straight forward" one though
17:57 < bramc> instagibbs:except that it makes older nodes not even be able to tell where transactions are coming from
17:57 < bramc> Or what utxos have been spent, for that matter
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17:58 < bramc> By 'properly' I mean start referring to transactions by the transaction id rather than the signature id
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17:59 < bramc> Done with Gavin's talk. He's mixing together a whole bunch of things, all of which have theoretical limitations which can be worked out straightforwardly
18:00 < bramc> There are basic implementation things, which fall under the category of 'unix systems having limited inodes is not a good reason for having a political process around newsgroup creation'
18:00 < bramc> aka 'people should fix the damn servers'
18:00 < bramc> That also goes for how long it takes to download a complete blockchain. Pipelining over tcp ain't that hard.
18:01 < bramc> Then there are some things which get small constant factors, like schnorr signatures.
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18:02 < bramc> Finally, there's raising the block size limit, which he gives some dubious justification for and no explanation of how to go about doing it (this whole soft/hard fork discussion isn't in there)
18:03 < bramc> Home net connections might be able to handle much larger bandwidth usage in the future, but net connections are increasing in size slowly, and the scaling size needed to not be a joke is at least two orders of magnitude
18:04 < bramc> On the flip side, things aren't very urgent. You can leave things as they are for a few years and nothing bad happens.
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18:05 < moa> exponential growth can be deceptively non-intuitive, nothing is urgent until it is overwhelming
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18:07 < bramc> Oh I just realized the justification behind that goofy ECC thing for blocks: It's for the blockchain relay network, which doesn't know state of anybody watching
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18:08 < bramc> decentralization in bitcoin isn't going so well. Blocks are all coming off the relay network and more than half the 'real' transaction volume is coming from blockchain.info, which has everybody's keys stored on their servers
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18:09 < jcorgan> meh
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18:10 < jcorgan> the size of entities in bitcoin appears power law distributed
18:10 < bramc> moa: That's roughly my point. Expanding the block size right now isn't needed, and when it is needed that solution likely won't be enough.
18:10 < jcorgan> which is quite typical of industries in general
18:11 < jcorgan> and that sort of distribution emerges whenever there are independent agents and economies of scale
18:12 < bramc> jcorgan:Still alarming and problematic
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18:12 < jcorgan> i'm not so worried.  looking the way it does seems an indicator of its health.
18:13 < kanzure> bramc: did you also read http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/peter-todd-scalability/ ?
18:13 < bramc> The lack of widespread adoption of heirarchical wallets is not a sign of health :-P
18:14 < bramc> kanzure:That's up next
18:15 < brisque> bramc: some fun trivia for you, in block height 346927 there were 760 transactions, 427 were made by blockchain.info.
18:15 < amincd> Increasing scale by 100X might not be enough for every person on Earth, but it would certainly expand the use-cases of Bitcoin, and potential size of the Bitcoin economy, which in turn can increase the capital and engineering mindshare dedicated to Bitcoin that could help come up with alternate scaling solutions (e.g. mphub network)
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18:16 < amincd> It also makes Bitcoin a more attractive proposition to investors and major businesses (e.g. banks). A hard limit and no consensus on how/when to raise it is a source of uncertainty
18:16 < brisque> bramc: just manually looking through them, approximately 50-60% of all transactions at the moment based on the last few blocks.
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18:17 < kanzure> hmm. suppose there was, for whatever reason, a miner that was trying to fork the network. and you wanted that miner to continue working on their fork (in vain), rather than attacking the other smaller less-hashrate-protected blockchain. on the miner-specific fork, everyone could just send the miner their BTC, in an attempt to make a larger incentive to that miner to not switch off of their fork. this might provide some protection to ...
18:18 < kanzure> ... the less-hashrate-participated blockchain?
18:18 < bramc> amincd: My point is that even increasing transaction volume by 100x can't be done just by increasing the block size for a while. People just don't have the bandwidth, and won't for over a decade.
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18:18 < kanzure> this probably only works when the hashrates are already close though, if the gap is too big then even 0.1% of the attacker infrastructure/hashrate could cause lots of problem and no amount of incentives will prevent that
18:19 < instagibbs> bramc: Most of us agree with your prognosis.
18:19 < bramc> kanzure:In general random noise will cause one branch to win
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18:19 < instagibbs> basic napkin math make it clear blocksize increases only get a tiny fraction of what you want, with questionable decentralization
18:20 < bramc> instagibbs:Good, that was my understanding. I'm surprised Gavin doesn't feel the same way. He didn't give numbers on exact rates of growth and specific times in the future though, so it's a little hard to tell what he's thinking.
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18:20 < moa> bramc: right, at present 100MB blocks would almost assuredly ruin bitcoin
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18:20 < amincd> bramc: Gavin's proposal is to increase the hard limit to 16.8 MB and then 40% every year thereafter. It'll get to 100 MB in about five years. And that's just the hard limit. It gives the Bitcoin community the option to go to 100 MB blocks, not the obligations. There are plenty of mechanisms to keep it below that size if broadband connection speeds don't grow fast enough
18:20 < instagibbs> bramc: for one, Gavin is really afraid of hitting the block size limit. This I think is coupled with his dislike of replace-by-fee
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18:21 < bramc> instagibbs:That's odd. I view hitting the limit as an important experiment to run
18:21 < instagibbs> amincd: the current game theory suggests that miners will be forced to make larger and larger blocks to keep up with their competition
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18:21 < rusty> bramc: Just because it's not sufficient doesn't mean it's not necessary.
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18:22 < kanzure> instagibbs: you mean in the do-nothing case?
18:22 < bramc> How do we know how much of a problem scaling really is if we don't have a measurement of what the transaction costs are?
18:22 < kanzure> "scaling"
18:22 < amincd> instagibbs: I agree. I wrote this: http://amincd.tumblr.com/post/100736367493/the-economics-of-the-block-size But >50% can enforce a rule to keep blocks smaller
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18:22 < kanzure> bramc: there are some known bottlenecks in a few places in the source code at the moment, if that's what you're asking about
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18:23 < instagibbs> amincd: >50% of miners I assume. That's the issue. Including non-mining stakeholders
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18:23 < amincd> instagibbs: yes, miners in control of >50% of the network hashrate. I really think it's a safe assumption that we can get that, if it's widely perceived to be healthy for the Bitcoin economy
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18:24 < bramc> kanzure:I assume such things are there and somewhat embarrassing but entirely fixable
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18:24 < kanzure> as far as i know, yeah
18:25 < instagibbs> amincd: I think it would be really damaging(confusing? energy-wasting?) to hardfork a higher limit, then later softfork a lower(which is what that is)
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18:26 < amincd> instagibbs: the softfork can set the limit above whatever the average block size is. Historically the average block size has increased rather slowly, so we'll have plenty of 'warning' that it's increasing too fast, if it is. I acknowledge there are risks, but I think the risks of not setting Bitcoin to scale soon and fast and are greater.
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18:26 < instagibbs> right so a rolling soft fork of some type
18:26 < gmaxwell> amincd: That doesn't make any sense to me.
18:26 < bramc> softforking to raise the block size limit shouldn't be mentioned so lightly. In some ways it would be more damaging than a hard fork to raise that limit.
18:26 < instagibbs> err
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18:27 < bramc> rusty:Has Gavin clarified whether he's talking a hard or a soft fork?
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18:27 < gmaxwell> amincd: Softfork is something miners can do unilatterly to the network, other users have no say in it. Miners have no reason to control the blocksize, they don't bare 99.99999% of the cost related to it.
18:27 < gmaxwell> bramc: he's not talking about a soft fork.
18:27 < rusty> bramc: it has to be a hard fork.
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18:28 < instagibbs> rusty: as per earlier it doesnt have to be, but its hella ugly
18:28 < gmaxwell> rusty: it doesn't. But most people do not know this. Intentionally because whenever someone has brought it up on bct they've been asked to not promote it.
18:28 < bramc> Yeah there's this problem that a miner who makes a big block gets to keep all the transaction fees for it but doesn't bear any of the costs.
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18:28 < gmaxwell> because as bramc notes, it's really ugly.
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18:29 < gmaxwell> bramc: well they bare an infinitesmal fraction of the cost. (the cost in recieving the transactions once, and maybe the cost of transmitting them once-- depending on what transport optimizations are in play; and they'll have the same costs if another miner includes the txn so its hard to avoid them via policy anyways)
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18:30 < gmaxwell> (I'm just being pedantic because I've found when I simplify that to nothing people argue with me that its not zero)
18:30 < gmaxwell> (as if that matters)
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18:30 < instagibbs> you can say ~0 :P
18:31 < instagibbs> it's certainly not actually 0
18:31 < amincd> gmaxwell: my assumption is that miners care about the overall health of the Bitcoin economy enough to defend decentralization.
18:31 < jcorgan> is the marginal risk for stale blocks anything consequential?
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18:32 < bramc> jcorgan:larger blocks definitely increase the rate of stale blocks, but how much is unclear, a lot of it has to do with how centralized mining is
18:32 < gmaxwell> amincd: why would you say that? We can objectively see the exact opposite in the mining ecosystem today? There is enormous centeralization, and this is in spite of some pretty heroic efforts to limit it.
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18:33 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: it's ~0 effect with the right transport protocol. (e.g. bluematt's relay protocol has to send only 2 bytes per each well relayed transaction a block includes)
18:33 < gmaxwell> Efficient set reconciliation protocols can potentially send even less.
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18:33 < bramc> Yeah there's this unfortunate thing that larger blocks create yet even more incentive for mining pools, and mining pools are the ones who get to decide if the block size should be increased
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18:34 < gmaxwell> bramc: right, well in the instance of soft-forking to control block size they do. Otherwise they're bounded by the network rules.
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18:34 < gmaxwell> (at least on the upper side)
18:34 < instagibbs> bramc: we already give power over txn ordering. giving power over protocol, esp at expense of users, is frankly nuts
18:35 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: if we could avoid tx ordering power we certantly would, alas. :)
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18:35 < instagibbs> did I tell you about my wonderful Darkcoin innovation (kidding kidding)
18:35 < instagibbs> scroll back if lost
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18:36 < bramc> Gavin said that five or six people have push access to bitcoinj. Git lists eight.
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18:37 < gmaxwell> The rest are NSA sockpuppets?
18:37 < gmaxwell> :P
18:37 < amincd> gmaxwell: so you believe pools would react to a request for a soft limit the same way they've reacted to increasing mining decentralization via P2Pool and getblocktemplate? If that's the case, then I'd have re-evaluate my assumptions.
18:38 < gmaxwell> amincd: I would give that something like 99% probablity. Especially if most users are on SPV clients (or even worse security model webwallets / centeralized services) and are thus personally feeling the pain.
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18:38 < gmaxwell> Keep in mind the discussion here from two days ago where apparently there were people on stage at MIT loudy arguing (without counter apparently) that no commercial party should be running bitcoind themselves.
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18:39 < gmaxwell> So not just miners ignoring calls to curb behavior (at a cost to the miners), but also the calls mostly not existing in the first place.
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18:40 < bramc> gmaxwell:Given some of the questions from the audience I wonder how many people there even understand at the very most basic level what bitcoin is and does.
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18:40 < moa> it's a worry
18:40 < gmaxwell> It hasn't been well communicated for sure, and there are lot of people who've basically built a business out of obfscuating that understanding.
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18:41 < amincd> I sort of had this impression that the core developers had a close line of communication with the pool operators and had a lot of influence on them. I guess that's not the case
18:41 < gmaxwell> Unfortunately, as you've noted messaging around bitcoin is largely controlled by people who are focused on monetary policy.
18:41 < gmaxwell> amincd: this is not the case.
18:41 < moa> the "next layer" seems to be unaware of the foundations they are building upon
18:42 < brisque> flimsy moats.
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18:43 < gmaxwell> amincd: a significant fraction of hashpower we know how to reach is more or less unresponsive. (e.g. we send an email saying there is an urgent risk of a network fork and we need a technical contact right away, and it gets ignored for two days and then we get a response back saying they'll have someone talk to us next week)
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18:43 < skittylx> ^
18:43 < skittylx> they wut mate
18:43 < amincd> gmaxwell: well that's not good
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18:44 < brisque> who the hell knows who most of these large miners are now anyway
18:44 < bramc> Peter Todd started his talk by saying that SPV scales and talking about some of the challenges in making it more secure, which is true but besides the point
18:44 < brisque> bw.com sort of sprung out of nowhere and they own a lot of the network now
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18:47 < bramc> Then he mentions net settlement (which is what I was just advocating) and talks about sharding. Sharding makes me cringe.
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18:48 < bramc> The problem with sharding is (a) doing it right requires a reorg of how blocks work, (b) it gets you a small constant factor hit immediately, and most importantly (c) it has trust issues which nobody knows what to do about
18:49 < bramc> 'optimizing bubble sort' is a good line though
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18:49 < instagibbs> bramc: i assume you've read of his treechains idea? I'd start with that as an idea how it might work
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18:49 < instagibbs> it at least answers how things would be ordered/reordered, etc, if perhaps not satisfactorily
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18:51 < bramc> instagibbs:No I'll add that to my list of crap to read
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18:53 < phantomcircuit> bramc, sharding?
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18:54 < bramc> phantomcircuit:The idea behind sharding is that not everybody has everything
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18:55 < phantomcircuit> bramc, oh
18:55 < phantomcircuit> bramc, that's fine and possibly preferable as long as everybody sees everything once
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18:55 < phantomcircuit> but obviously hard to get right
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18:55 < bramc> phantomcircuit:Well if they have to see it all once it defeats the purpose because they need to use the bandwidth to transfer it anyway
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18:56 < instagibbs> the benefit is not seeing everything at once
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18:56 < phantomcircuit> bramc, huh?
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18:56 < phantomcircuit> lets use a mobile phone as an example
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18:57 < phantomcircuit> it's not unreasonable to download and discard the entire blockchain on a phone over wifi
18:57 < instagibbs> we could use bitcoin as an example
18:57 < phantomcircuit> most of the consensus checks are cheap
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18:57 < instagibbs> but you needed to process all the data
18:57 < bramc> phantomcircuit:That's a bit ridiculous even today, but the discussion of sharding was in the context of scaling bitcoin in the future
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18:57 < instagibbs> (excluding SPV which is trusting miners to do their job)
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18:58 < bramc> If you're checking a complete block chain it's fairly reasonable to not do much checks on older stuff as long as the work difficulties of the later blocks check out.
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19:00 < bramc> And work difficulty is of course utterly trivial in bitcoin. Not so much in some altcoins.
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19:00 < jcorgan> sometimes i think bitcoin is better described as "programmable trust"
19:00 < instagibbs> If you could magically shard Bitcoin, it'd be obvious why you'd do it though. You could ramp up Bitcoin 1000x with no increased difficulty of running a fully validating node.
19:01 < phantomcircuit> bramc, actually downloading but not saving the entire blockchain on a phone is entirely reasonable today
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19:01 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: magic is nice like that.
19:01 < phantomcircuit> you can even run the signature checks for the last say 2016*4 blocks without it taking too long
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19:02 < instagibbs> clearly impossible. Just trying to point out the obvious benefit if possible
19:02 < moa> jcorgan: it's somewhat like a trusted virtual grid machine
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19:02 < instagibbs> simply saying "well <1MB blocks are easy" kind of missing the long term goal of such an idea
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19:03 < jcorgan> moa: i mean, the various wallet designs are really differentiated by who you have to trust to not screw you.
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19:03 < jcorgan> fully validating is less trusting then spv is less trusting the webwallet, etc.
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19:03 < bramc> If you're designing from scratch you can make each block point to a root of the whole utxo set instead of a data structure containing the new stuff
19:03 < bramc> That shards trivially but... ugh...
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19:04 < phantomcircuit> instagibbs, i dont think anybody whose opposed to increasing the block size limit is missing the point...
19:04 < phantomcircuit> ditto sharding
19:04 < jcorgan> and at the root of the trust spectrum is trusting the properties of math
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19:04 < Luke-Jr> anyone mind if I redirect vmatekole?
19:04 < instagibbs> We must be talking past each other then.
19:04 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, please do
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19:04 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: complicated by the fact that objectively people make bad trust decisions, and as a whole ecosystem other people's bad decisions also effect you.
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19:05 < phantomcircuit> bramc, iirc there's significant performance issues with that
19:05 < instagibbs> I'm not advocating a block size increase(??)
19:05 < phantomcircuit> (i totally could be wrong there)
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19:05 < bramc> phantomcircuit:Correct, hence my ugh
19:05 < gmaxwell> (there was a nice study where someone stood on a street corner and bought people's SSN/name/dob/address for pieces of candy or something like that :) )
19:06 < moa> study by google?
19:06 < bramc> moa: not sure what you're asking
19:06 < gmaxwell> hah no some academic study, but I suppose google is pretty much an example of that every day.
19:07 < gmaxwell> has anyone here developed a yubikey neo applet?
19:12 < copumpkin> neo :O
19:12 < copumpkin> I played with their U2F thing
19:14 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no but i believe it's just a standard javacard
19:14 < phantomcircuit> iirc you have to use their tools to switch it from the normal mode to the javacard mode
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21:49 < petertodd> "softforking to raise the block size limit" <- oh, via how you can fool a SPV node into accepting a merkle path that includes a minimally-sized transaction part way because the hashing algorithm for inner nodes is the same as transactions?
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21:52 < petertodd> we can after all soft-fork *out* that ability
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21:54 < gmaxwell> petertodd: no, by commiting to more block data in a block, and enforcing new rules in that block data in all further blocks, and by (optionally) censoring all normal transactions in the regular blocks.
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21:55 < petertodd> gmaxwell: well, that requires SPV nodes to change - not terribly interesting, and kinda obvious
21:59 < gmaxwell> petertodd: sure. but they don't get a choice.
21:59 < petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, but that's still way more politically disruptive than my version
22:00 < gmaxwell> As it stands spv nodes don't enforce blocksize at all, so one need not even do that much; just hardfork to softfork a blocksize change on spv nodes...
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22:03 < petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, but like I say, in my horrid scheme it really is a soft-fork
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22:05 < phantomcircuit> <petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, but like I say, in my horrid scheme it really is a soft-fork
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22:29 < petertodd> so basically a minimal valid transaction is < 64 bytes, which lets the following 64-byte tx be valid: b2x(CTransaction([CTxIn(COutPoint(b'\00'*32,0xaaaaaaaa),nSequence=0xbbbbbbbb)],[CTxOut(0xcccccccc,CScript(b'\xdd'*4))],nLockTime=0xeeeeeeee).serialize()) -> 01000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000aaaaaaaa00bbbbbbbb01cccccccc0000000004ddddddddeeeeeeee
22:29 < petertodd> or just the second 32 bytes: 0000000000aaaaaaaa00bbbbbbbb01cccccccc0000000004ddddddddeeeeeeee
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22:33 < petertodd> in the above naively we have about 20 bytes that we can pick freely, leaving 12 bytes to brute force, and with a whole pile of txouts to choose from and/or shitloads of btc, we can get that down to ~8 bytes to brute force
22:34 < petertodd> (I had remembered nSequence being *after* prevout in the serialization; it's before which makes the above scheme probably unfeasible... if it were after this would probably actually be practical :/)
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22:52 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, is a no output tx valid?
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22:53 < brisque> phantomcircuit: no, that's invalid
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