--- Log opened Sun Mar 15 00:00:22 2015
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02:06 < brisque> "Ethereum's Proof-Of-Stake, (almost) unlimited supply, big transactions, 3-12 secs confirmation times are great for a decentralized platform."
02:07 < justanotheruser> source
02:07 < brisque> http://redd.it/2z01xq
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02:11 < smooth> i thought ethereum's supply was actually unlimited
02:11 < smooth> although i have no idea how what they're going to do with that when they switch to pos
02:13 < brisque> "when they switch to PoS" is an odd statement. they've essentially designed the system to hinge around the fact that they will be able to, when all evidence currently points to the contrary.
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02:15 < smooth> which evidence?
02:15 < justanotheruser> my thoughts are that cryptocurrency has way too many people interested technically who aren't interested in actually reading technical materials.
02:15 < justanotheruser> Leads them to think conceptually that PoS can work without thinking about possible attacks.
02:16 < brisque> smooth: there's been lots of attempts at proof of stake published by Ethereum, generally with show stopping flaws, their recent conclusion to that was that it is only possible with "weak subjectivity", ie phone a friend consensus.
02:17 < smooth> brisque: oh sure, but that doesn't mean they won't do it, like every other pos coin. Plus, they don't seem to have a clearly defined pow solution either
02:17 < smooth> i would not be totally shocked if they never launch at all
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02:19 < brisque> smooth: they do now, sort of. it's in rapid flux and seems to be largely undocumented, but they've laid out their concept. it's "memory hard" to "prevent" hardware based miners, and uses an ungodly amount of memory, the amount of which increases every period.
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02:22 < smooth> brisque: by clearly defined i meant: 1) documented, and 2) not in rapid flux
02:23 < brisque> yeah. you're not getting that apparently.
02:23 < brisque> it's completely changed in the last month since I looked at it, even the name
02:23 < brisque> https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Ethash
02:24 < brisque> looks like they've realised that an ever growing data set is silly, that's no longer mentioned.
02:24 < brisque> oh wait, yeah it's still there. "The dataset grows linearly with time."
02:24 < justanotheruser> neat, that page is a tree of links to other hashing algorithms
02:25 < smooth> "This spec is REVISION 23. Whenever you substantively (ie. not clarifications) update the algorithm, please update the revision number in this sentence"
02:25 < fluffypony> looks pretty well documented to me here: https://archive.org/details/EtherealVerses
02:25 < fluffypony> unclehashtelehash
02:28 < smooth> check back next week for revision 43
02:29 < fluffypony> tested in production (tm)
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07:06 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] linearly with time
07:06 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] sigh
07:06 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] i guess they learned nothing from boolberry
07:07 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] brisque: i think they're going to find that when they hit real world use of their 6s block time they're going to find much more interesting problems to solve than proof of stake, personally
07:11 < justanotheruser> umm, does MRL not let you connect to the internet except through their relay?
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07:12 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] justanotheruser: The issue is more that FreeNode doesn't let you connect directly via Tor.
07:12 < justanotheruser> oh, so you have a tor relay. neat
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07:14 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Previously it was Tor --> tunnel --> FreeNode but this is easier because I don't need my own tunnel anymore. :P Just a freenode annoyance unfortunately.
07:30 < fluffypony> justanotheruser: it's relayed to a channel on a private network that does allow Tor connections
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09:05 < bliljerk101> Anyone here familiar with price of anarchy?
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10:15 < kanzure> bliljerk101: i am familiar with it (although sometimes as "price of malice") http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/incentives/
10:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/incentives/The%20price%20of%20malice:%20a%20game-theoretic%20framework%20for%20malicious%20behavior%20in%20distributed%20systems.pdf
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10:23 < bliljerk101> kanzure I have been thinking about how one might go about calculating an exact Price of Anarchy for a bid-ask market. It may be uncomputable, because if it weren't then that might suggest there is a singular optimal trading strategy that would be used by every high frequency trading firm, and thus make an army of PhD's unemployed.
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10:37 < kanzure> i'm not sure what the phd thing has to do with any of that... there are many armies of unemployed phds.
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10:50 < bliljerk101> kanzure :) I don't think you understand the problem then.. no worries.
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10:58 < bliljerk101> i've run this by three professors who are familiar with POA, including a professor at cambridge. only one of which so far has been able to suggest an answer. if by some chance you can calculate a POA of a bid-ask market, there will probably only be a handful of people who will actually understand it. but i think it's important.
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13:02 < Muis> i am wondering
13:02 < Muis> why is pow not done over the chain itself?
13:03 < Muis> for example that you dont need to find a hash for the header of the current block
13:03 < Muis> but that you need to find a hash over the total contents of block X (random block in the past)
13:04 < Muis> so that miners proof they have fast access to each block?
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13:20 < instagibbs> Muis: because headers-only syncing/spv would break.
13:20 < instagibbs> also this is more #bitcoin
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13:25 < Muis> instagibbs: I ment more: why is there no alt-coin who does this? is it a stupid idea
13:26 < Muis> if the only reason is: because it would cause a hardfork, then it seems a good idea
13:27 < Muis> and SPV shouldnt have to break I think?
13:27 < instagibbs> you can't verify the chain without having the full blockchain, so yes it would
13:27 < instagibbs> you wouldnt know if someone was spoofing a legit chain unless you grab those blocks
13:27 < Muis> SPV clients dont verify the whole chain?
13:28 < instagibbs> ok, you really should read some more. Try: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#block-chain-overview
13:28 < Crowley2k> ^ nope..
13:29 < instagibbs> and again these are #bitcoin questions. generally OT unless you've already done necessary research
13:29 < Muis> instagibbs: then you should read: https://bitslog.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/theoretical-and-practical-nonoutsourceable-puzzles/ and see how SPV clients can verify the difficulty very easily
13:30 < Muis> "Peers can send only (x,r,h) to SPV nodes, where x = H( r || b ), so they can verify the PoW. "
13:30 < instagibbs> you seem to have basic confusion about what SPV in Bitcoin does. I'd suggest you read up on it.
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13:31 < Muis> no?
13:31 < Muis> lol, i've written a SPV client myself
13:32 < Muis> SPV clients put trust in the difficulty, thats not equal to verifying the full chain
13:33 < instagibbs> Oh I see the confusion. I meant my statement as a question, you meant yours as a statement.
13:35 < instagibbs> I was speaking to your hyptothetical
13:35 < Muis> I dont follow you
13:36 < instagibbs> clogging up space here. Anyways, generally these PoW mods have some fatal flaw, such as not being progress-free, or subtly encouraging centralization
13:36 < instagibbs> and generally do nothing to stop private mining, so people would just do that. You don't want to kill pools if only other people will mine completely centralized.
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13:37 < Muis> private mining?
13:37 < instagibbs> as opposed to public
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13:38 < Muis> why is that bad, and why dont you want to kill pools?
13:39 < instagibbs> If you kill pools, than only people who can handle the variance will mine. Large capital investments would be required to even think about recouping investment.
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13:40 < Muis> but if you split the block-reward from 1 big reward, to a reward-per-share scheme (kinda like P2Pool), then the variance is not that big for solo miners
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19:20 < zooko> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/235
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19:22 < nsh> ty zooko :)
19:22 < nsh> is PET on atm?
19:22 < kanzure> positron emission tomography?
19:23 < nsh> privacy-enhancing technologies sympoconfomeetothings
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19:23 < nsh> (if you twitter search 'privacy-enhancing' you get a lot of photos of bathrooms)
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19:25 < nsh> (nope, PETS is next on in July in Philly)
19:26 < nsh> or June 30 -- July 2
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19:28 < zooko> nsh: I just saw that paper from twitter from Frederic Jacobs:
19:30  * nsh nods
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 16 00:00:23 2015