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ZZZzzz…] 05:50 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@cpe-76-179-63-243.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-5-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:01 -!- waxwing__ [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:02 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-yljlatxkiuolfzhu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:02 -!- waxwing__ is now known as waxwing 06:08 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:25 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:33 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:34 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:36 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:39 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:40 -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:48 < sipa> Muis: you can introduce a new script language as a softfork, by using an OP_EVAL like construct 06:48 -!- Luke [~Luke@unaffiliated/luke] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:48 < Muis> And that language has only 1 command: recover public key from signature 06:49 < Muis> Or how would the op codes look? 06:49 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2600:1006:b115:29f0:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:49 < sipa> tell me when you figure it out :) 06:49 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:51 < Muis> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/6e223c405988a1002eeeee69db88a1128a38b0a3 06:52 < sipa> yes, that's the code to implement them 06:52 < sipa> the tricky part is using it in scripts 06:52 < Muis> yes thats all i need 06:52 < sipa> good luck then 06:52 < Muis> Because there are no scripts in my protocol 06:52 < Muis> So they all look the same 06:53 < sipa> what do you store in script outputs? 06:53 < sipa> eh, in transaction outputs 06:53 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:54 < Luke-Jr> sounds like more of a topic for ##altcoin-dev 06:56 < Muis> Just the public key of the receiver 06:57 < sipa> Muis: then how are you going to use pubkey recovery to _not_ store that pubkey 06:57 < sipa> if your protocol already says storing it :p 06:58 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:00 < Muis> Good question. But your scheme decreases Bitcoin tx from 133 to 65 bytes, so why would it work ffor Bitcoin and not in my case? 07:01 < sipa> i'm asking you to think how to make it work 07:02 < sipa> you seem to assume it's pixie dust that just decreases things 07:02 < Muis> " Currently, bitcoin txin's for spend-to-address transactions use a DER-encoded signature + DER-encoded public key, resulting in 139-byte scripts. Assuming we drop the DER-encoding (except for a version byte), we could reduce this to 65 bytes." 07:02 < sipa> you need to significantlty redesign things to make it work 07:03 < Muis> So i must limit to spend-to txs 07:03 < sipa> first of all, it just doesn't apply to your design 07:03 < sipa> it's inherent to how bitcoin's pay-to-pubkeyhash works 07:04 < sipa> it wouldn't work for pay-to-pubkey, which is what you're using 07:04 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 07:06 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:06 -!- Luke [~Luke@unaffiliated/luke] has quit [Quit: part] 07:07 < Muis> sipa: i can still change to pay-to-pubkeyhash, im just experimenting with a design 07:08 < sipa> well understand former design decisions before changing them :) 07:09 < kanzure> agreed 07:09 < sipa> you can't just say "hey i'm going to use this optimization which was described years ago in a different context", and expect it to just work 07:09 < Muis> true 07:12 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@123.118.82.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.97.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:17 -!- OneFixt_ [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:17 < Muis> Im just trying to build a fork of Bitcoin where each address is the start of a new chain you can follow, and each address in that chain is also a possible genesis for a new chain. I did this by mis-using the nServices field for a peer, so that each peer can indicate which chains it follows (by filtering them on the first x bytes which match their IP). And if 07:17 < Muis> you need the headers of chain X, you dont connect to different networks/peers, but there is a large chance you can ask your existing peers. 07:18 < Muis> Because there will be a lot of mini chains, just like a forum with topics, the chains need to be as small as possible 07:18 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 07:18 < Muis> Thats why im interested in your idea to save space 07:20 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:50 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@123.118.82.19] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:51 -!- p15x [~p15x@123.118.82.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:02 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.97.67] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@73.202.109.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined 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[~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:01 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 -!- coiner [~linker@42.115.149.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04 -!- coiner [~linker@42.115.149.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- skittylx [skittylx@cpe-75-187-201-213.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- skittylx [skittylx@cpe-75-187-201-213.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:05 -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:06 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B2822FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:10 -!- Cory [Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10 < benjyz1> hi. is anyone using RPC via Java with bitcoinj objects? 12:12 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13 -!- Cory [Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:13 < amiller_> benjyz1, that sounds better for #bitcoin-dev 12:13 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:15 < benjyz1> maybe. in general I think core people could more engage with devs working on API's. 12:15 < kanzure> "core people" are in #bitcoin-dev 12:16 < benjyz1> kk. so how do I go about acquiring the wizards title? 12:17 < kanzure> the channel name has already been registered with chanserv 12:18 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:19 -!- waxwing__ [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-cbtfpcdzcypvaaft] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:19 -!- waxwing__ is now known as waxwing 12:20 -!- dignork [~dignork@unaffiliated/dignork] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:20 -!- dignork [~dignork@unaffiliated/dignork] has joined 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http://www.somethingsimilar.com/2013/01/14/notes-on-distributed-systems-for-young-bloods/ 15:30 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:30 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:32 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32 -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:33 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:36 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@host86-147-75-135.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:39 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.97.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 15:58 -!- bsm117532 [45bff13b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.191.241.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02 -!- rainsborough [~rainsboro@c-67-191-209-210.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:03 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 -!- bsm117532_ [45bff13b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.191.241.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- bsm117532 [45bff13b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.191.241.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:05 -!- bsm117532_ is now known as bsm117532 16:13 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:17 -!- afk11 [~thomas@89.100.72.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:26 -!- bsm117532 [45bff13b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.191.241.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:36 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:37 -!- jtimon [~quassel@189.Red-83-59-238.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:38 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: adam3us1: can you guys think of a technical security definition for DMMS that doesn't outright exclude PoS? 16:39 < andytoshi> i think this "creating a block is super easy for the signers (who change each block) but impossible for everyone else" idea actually doesn't fit under the same umbrella as bitcoin's "every block is equally hard to make for all parties", but i'd like to be wrong for didactic reasons 16:41 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:42 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:43 -!- Luke [~Luke@unaffiliated/luke] has quit [Quit: part] 16:44 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@188.26.147.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:51 -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@188.26.147.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 < nsh> hmm 16:55 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55 < andytoshi> like, i've heard it said (at least in my own thoughts) that "pos is a broken dmms" but i think the mechanism that it tries to produce consensus by is conceptually totally independent of dmms 16:56 -!- c0rw|away is now known as c0rw1n 17:04 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:04 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:05 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06 < gmaxwell> I think if you try to analyize it as a dmms you find that it's broken as one. 17:06 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:10 < andytoshi> yeah, but when i try to formalize dmms i seem to find that either the security property is way too permissive (and doesn't provide any protection against bad histories) or it's tight enough that it excludes PoS for reasons that feel like technicalities 17:11 < andytoshi> maybe i'm just not being creative enough 17:13 < Eliel> gmaxwell: have you taken a look at BitShares lately? (since last august or so) If so, I'd be curious to hear your opinion on the technical choices they've made and if you think the result is viable. 17:14 < Eliel> (other peoples' thoughts are welcome too, of course) 17:16 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:16 -!- jtimon [~quassel@189.Red-83-59-238.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:24 < andytoshi> it's fine, i think i want to define dmms so that (a) "dmms -> consensus in absense of central parties" can be shown; (b) "dmms does not imply an absense of central parties" is not true, to prevent centralization you need a bunch of technical features (cf asic-faq.pdf) and some hope; (c) might not be true that dmms is -required- for distributed consensus; (d) pos is not a secure dmms, though not for 17:24 < andytoshi> particularly interesting reasons; (e) you cannot get consensus from pos alone 17:24 < andytoshi> if any of those statements contradict peoples' intuition about DMMS or consensus i'm interested to hear about it 17:25 < gmaxwell> Eliel: not latey, I kinda wrote off that camp after their initial stunts which were really reprehensible. 17:25 < andytoshi> oops, (b) should be true 17:25 < gmaxwell> After hoskins abandoned it to go start ethereum I sort of expected it to fade out. Have a particular citation on something I might find actually interesting? 17:27 < Eliel> gmaxwell: I also lost interest in that camp quite a while ago. However, having looked their stuff over lately, it's quite intriquing. I'll dig up a link for you, a moment. 17:29 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, i kind of suspect there's an edge case in making forks part of the consensus algorithm 17:29 < phantomcircuit> but i couldn't figure out how to do that without it being trivial to DoS 17:30 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 17:32 < andytoshi> phantomcircuit: oh, thx, that's a good intuition (since i doubt "dos resisistance" will have anything to do with consensus-primitive definitions i'll bet there is a counterexample there to anything i come up with) 17:32 < phantomcircuit> also i think gmaxwell had something to say that 17:33 -!- koshii [~0@156.39.191.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:35 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@c-24-131-0-5.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 17:36 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:37 < gmaxwell> well "dos resistance" can also mean "given finite bandwidth between nodes, the system will converge in acceptable time, even with some nodes byzantine" 17:37 < Eliel> gmaxwell: I've got a few links now. A couple on the technical aspects and one that outlines the history of the project, as well as what mistakes they made along the way and why those were mistakes. 17:38 < gmaxwell> (*in acceptable time with acceptable probablity) 17:38 < Eliel> gmaxwell: here's tech overview http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/TITAN 17:38 < phantomcircuit> yeah to be clear when i say dos issues i mean it wouldn't work because you can make each peer do a nearly infinite amount of work at little to no real cost 17:38 < phantomcircuit> although there's an incentives argument that it is at a real (opportunity) cost 17:38 < phantomcircuit> but im not sure that works 17:38 < Eliel> and this is the history http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/BitShares/History 17:39 < phantomcircuit> this is actually why i was asking about proof of work functions that had forward progress before 17:39 < phantomcircuit> you might be able to mitigation the dos issues with one 17:40 < phantomcircuit> or that might horribly break consensus 17:40 < phantomcircuit> i couldn't quite figure that out 17:41 < Eliel> gmaxwell: there's also all kinds of information in the articles on this blog by the founder. http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/ 17:42 < phantomcircuit> oo neat 17:42 < Eliel> http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/20/The-Minimal-Requirement-for-Decentalization/ 17:42 < phantomcircuit> i've got a bitcoin node with -proxy=127.0.0.1:9050 (tor) 17:42 < phantomcircuit> ALL of the peers are .onion 17:43 < phantomcircuit> that seems a bit fishy to me 17:45 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:46 < gmaxwell> Eliel: well it's not really good that that 'dpos' page really says nothing about security model except a few 'Disincentives for attacks' lines at the bottom, which seems limited to the 'random number' generation. Delegation for POS was suggested by me (and I'm sure others) in the earliest POS threads but it was pointed out that delegation creates moral hazard (e.g. the people who own the coins a 17:46 < gmaxwell> ren't the people making the consensus, so more incentive to attack and run, who cares if the coins are worthless) undermining the original argument for POS in the first place... would kinda be nice if they addressed that. It also seems that the existing delegates can just freely block someone new from joining. I can't tell from the page how many are required to jam it. 17:47 < gmaxwell> I mean, it just doesn't have any real substantive information needed to understand any of the edge conditions; maybe some of the links at the bottom are helpful. 17:50 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@111.193.176.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:58 < Eliel> gmaxwell: yes, well organized in depth information is not easy to find. 17:58 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:59 < Eliel> gmaxwell: but as for the incentive for the delegates in this case is that they're kind of considered employees of the network and receive income for keeping themselves part of the 101 delegates. 17:59 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 < MRL-Relay> [othe] Eliel, Titan is basically just stealth addresses renamed to a fancy marketing name with a flawed aliasing system 18:00 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 < Eliel> othe: Yes, it's said pretty directly on the wiki page I linked to. 18:00 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:01 < Eliel> well, aside from calling it the aliasing system flawed. 18:02 < MRL-Relay> [othe] it will end like the domain squatting scene 18:02 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:04 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:05 < bramc> What was meant by dmms and PoS in the above conversation? 18:05 -!- zooko [~user@174-16-54-162.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06 < Eliel> othe: I'd love to see a proper decentralized aliasing system that didn't require global consensus, but it doesn't appear to be a simple problem. The squatting is at least a manageable problem. 18:07 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] bramc dmms is a fancy name for mining 18:08 < Eliel> fancy or not, I'd also be curious to know what those letters are initials for :P 18:08 < bramc> andytoshi, I don't understand your question, are you asking why/whether proofs of storage can be used in mining? 18:08 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] Eliel look in sidechains paper, something about distributed multiparty 18:08 < bramc> 'dynamic memory multiparty signature' 18:09 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] oh 'dynamic' right 18:09 < bramc> no, 'dynamic membership multiparty signature' 18:12 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:12 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-092-077-241-192.092.077.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:13 < bramc> andytoshi, It's possible to make a PoS system which doesn't get destroyed by grinding, it needs to have proofs of time though and some very careful use of canonicalization 18:14 -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.191.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:15 < bramc> andytoshi, I read your treatise on altcoins and found your comment about not being able to find a rigorous proof that PoS can't be used amusing. You can't prove what isn't true :-) 18:15 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-088-070-163-065.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15 < bramc> andytoshi, There are caveats of course. There are attacks when someone has a faster proof of time server, and there's some amount of bonus for pooling which can be mitigated but not made zero 18:16 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:17 -!- OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt 18:18 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:20 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:22 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:22 -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:24 -!- skittylx [skittylx@cpe-75-187-201-213.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:24 -!- skittylx [skittylx@cpe-75-187-201-213.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:24 -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:25 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25 < brisque> with regards to the flawed alias system, there's quite a few of them around now. 18:25 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:26 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:26 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 18:27 -!- stevenroose [stevenroos@gateway/shell/yourbnc/x-kvlyvmqikppfhyvh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:28 -!- stevenroose [stevenroos@gateway/shell/yourbnc/x-tiptnmqfjjfnwwus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:29 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:29 < gmaxwell> they're easy to implement and sound like useful features. actual utility, not so much. 18:30 < brisque> I imagine for NXT their key value store will be annoying come pruning time 18:31 < bramc> gmaxwell, But how are you supposed to use bitcoin when you don't have access to a computer? 18:31 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@xd9bf72ba.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@xd9bf72ba.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] 18:31 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:34 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf7736.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:34 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:35 -!- moleccc [~molecular@e176100089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:35 < phantomcircuit> bramc, maths in your head and morse code 18:38 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@host15.190-136-226.telecom.net.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- molec [~molecular@e176107081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:38 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:40 -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:42 < bramc> A thought about scaling and raising the block size: As peers get faster with faster connections, if you don't raise the block size limit then wallets could start running full nodes instead of spv nodes 18:43 < phantomcircuit> bramc, the limit is largely cpu power 18:44 < phantomcircuit> 32 core system with everything in ram AND signature checks disabled 18:44 < phantomcircuit> ~50mbps 18:45 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:45 < brisque> phantomcircuit: tell that to my 70KB/s upload :< 18:45 < bramc> phantomcircuit, All the stuff about raising limits is talking about computers being a lot faster with much faster net connections in the future 18:46 < phantomcircuit> bramc, im not sure assuming consumer cpus are going to get substantially faster is a great bet 18:47 < brisque> syncing bitcoin core is pretty much single threaded isn't it? 18:48 < phantomcircuit> brisque, not really 18:48 < phantomcircuit> if you disable signature checks it looks single threaded but is actually just ping ponging between threads 18:48 < brisque> with checkpoints on, I mean. 18:48 < brisque> ah 18:48 < gmaxwell> brisque: signature checking is very parallel. The 50mbit/s phantomcircuit is talking about is likely from heap allocator overhead, but thats not that worth addressing because signature checking is a much bigger bottlenext generally. 18:48 < bramc> phantomcircuit, I'm not making the argument! Just pointing out that we're already running up against scaling limits. When people start running full nodes on wallets because it's cheap enough then it's time to think about raising. 18:51 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:53 < phantomcircuit> bramc, oh 18:53 < phantomcircuit> ok then 18:55 < bramc> Although I haven't heard anyone other than Gavin be particularly enthusiastic about raising the limit 18:56 < bramc> I for one want to see the limit hit so that everybody fixes their shit to be able to handle transaction fees 18:56 < brisque> there's lots of people on bitcointalk and reddit who support it. 18:57 < brisque> I saw a lovely diagram that describes anybody who doesn't want 20MB blocks as functionally impaired. 18:58 < bramc> brisque, My sample is of course a bit warped, being mostly of people who do actual development 18:58 < bramc> 'It's liked on reddit and the forums' is not generally a good reason for making technical decisions. 18:59 < brisque> ah here we go. https://i.imgur.com/h7kJDH7.jpg 18:59 < phantomcircuit> brisque, gavin is literally the only technical person i've ever heard suggest it's a good idea 19:02 < kanzure> brisque: mto hit the limit then i suggest lowering the block size limit 19:02 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 19:03 < kanzure> wow i don't now what went wrong there with my message 19:03 < kanzure> bramc: my suggestion for hitting the limit is to lower the block size limit, not increase the block size limit 19:04 < bramc> kanzure, I've heard that suggested as well, to force the issues to be fixed before they really really have to be fixed 19:05 < bramc> Sounds like a good idea to me, although it is a bit like price fixing by miners, and it requires their collusion, which unfortunately probably won't happen 19:07 < kanzure> *know 19:09 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:12 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-173-73-105-152.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27 -!- toffoo [~tof@unaffiliated/toffoo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:44 -!- hktud0 [ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46 -!- hktud0 [ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:48 -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:49 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@cpe-76-179-63-243.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:58 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has quit [] 20:00 < Taek> gavin doesn't seem too opposed to the idea of only enthusiests with powerful computers and connections being able to run nodes 20:01 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:03 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-173-73-105-152.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:04 < Taek> which, from a really high level, might be all you need 20:05 < Luke-Jr> Taek: once we have decent SPV wallets, maybe 20:06 < phantomcircuit> sooo not anytime soon? 20:06 < phantomcircuit> i dont consider an spv client to be sufficient for that without fraud proofs 20:06 < phantomcircuit> which im still not convinced can be done without hugely complex DoS mitigation 20:07 < Taek> You'd want a fraud proof to propagate in less time than people take to confirm a transaction 20:09 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I'd want to see at least gitian determinism and a decent UI (in other words, Bitcoin Core quality) 20:09 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: how do you prevent fraud proof DoS? 20:10 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, kill peers that give you bad fraud proofs would be the first thing 20:10 < bramc> What do you mean by 'fraud proof'? 20:10 < phantomcircuit> but it's really just heuristics 20:10 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: no, I meant legit fraud proofs spammed because of real frauds 20:10 < Luke-Jr> but in this context maybe it doesn't matter 20:10 < phantomcircuit> bramc, evidence that a block violates the rules 20:10 < Luke-Jr> bramc: proof of a better blockchain than the one with the tx 20:10 < Luke-Jr> or that 20:10 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, you'd need to make the fraud proofs 1:1 20:11 < phantomcircuit> with the serialization 20:11 < Luke-Jr> hm 20:11 < bramc> Isn't a fraud proof usually a chain back to a conflict? 20:11 < phantomcircuit> it costs something to generate something that would even need to be proven fraudulent 20:11 < phantomcircuit> so there's a limited set of possibilities 20:11 * Luke-Jr ponders if a fraud proof for "block too large" would need to be the block size 20:12 < Taek> Luke-Jr: it does not 20:12 < bramc> Luke-Jr, It wouldn't if sizes were included in the hashing-together process 20:12 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [] 20:12 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, you'd have to process the entire block 20:12 < phantomcircuit> fun 20:12 < Luke-Jr> bramc: this assumes the block is valid in the first place 20:12 < Luke-Jr> I was thinking of using the SHA256 lengths, but those can be forged too 20:13 < bramc> Luke-Jr, If the nodes leading to the transaction root included sizes then there would of necessity be a short proof of a root which lied about total size 20:13 < Taek> If the leaves of the merkle tree are formed from the hashes of transactions, and you have a minimum legal size for a transaction 20:13 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:13 < Luke-Jr> bramc: what stops it from lying in those steps too? ;) 20:13 < bramc> Maybe I should exhaustively work through all the ways invariants could be violated and how proofs of them could be short 20:13 < phantomcircuit> Taek, doesn't prove anything 20:13 < phantomcircuit> there's a massive space beyond min and max 20:14 < bramc> Luke-Jr, If you lie about the size of the root, then either you didn't hash together the two things below it properly, or you lied about the size of one of them 20:14 < Luke-Jr> exactly 20:14 < Luke-Jr> if someone is crafting an invalid block, they *would* do that 20:16 < Taek> hm 20:16 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it's maybe even impossible to create a fraud proof for a block you've never seen (best chain is not better than the fraud) 20:16 < Luke-Jr> with that in mind, perhaps the only fraud proof that matters is "I have a better chain" 20:18 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, for an extensive implementation 20:18 < Taek> what if the merkle root is a random set of bytes? 20:18 < Taek> how do you build a fraud proof for that? You can't prove that nothing builds to that hash 20:18 < phantomcircuit> you'd basically just need the merkle tree branch and a "this is broken" possibly with another branch to a conflicting transaction 20:18 < phantomcircuit> except for block size limits 20:19 < phantomcircuit> i think you need to have the full block 20:19 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:3d16:dbce:63aa:9855] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:19 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: but if the fraud chain is longer than the real one, the fraud won't publish his false block 20:20 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, true 20:20 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, eh it's so much easier to parse the full chain over a high bandwidth link 20:21 < phantomcircuit> it's really not that much data :| 20:21 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: original topic was increasing block size :P 20:21 < phantomcircuit> even then 20:21 < Luke-Jr> I don't have a high bandwidth link available. 20:22 < Luke-Jr> and my USB Armory took like a month to IBD :p 20:23 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, eh you'd basically want to do what bitcoin core does if fScriptchecks=false alayws 20:23 < phantomcircuit> alwyaS* 20:24 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: what? convince ghashio to mine with fScriptChecks=false? :D 20:24 < phantomcircuit> and bitcoin cores implementation of that is fast but certainly not optimal 20:28 -!- blazes816 [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:32 < bramc> Luke-Jr, it's always possible to trace it all the way down to the leaf which has the error, and that's a short path 20:32 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32 < Taek> I'm still stuck on the withholding problem. If 51% mining power decides to withhold information on each block 20:33 < Luke-Jr> bramc: what if that leaf is 1 GB in reality? or not known to anyone? 20:33 < Taek> all of the full nodes will reject the blocks they produce, but all of the SPV nodes will accept them 20:33 -!- blazes816 [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:858a:e89:bcc8:3bb8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:36 < bramc> Oh, yeah, proving 'there's nothing with this hash' is a bit of a problem 20:40 < bramc> By definition there are infinitely many things with a given hash 20:44 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:55 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:00 < Taek> wrt to the recent exit scam, sztorc (truthcoin) proposed that making reputation fungible and sellable is one potential way to prevent exit scams 21:01 < Taek> the idea being that if you commit an exit scam, your reputation becomes worthless 21:01 < Taek> and you could have made more money by instead just selling it 21:05 < gmaxwell> see also the very first discussion in this channel with respect to fidelity bonds. Though these schemes have common faults though. 21:05 < gmaxwell> For example, say ther is some small ding coming on your reputation (e.g. you screwed up and accidentally screwed someone over a bit), suddenly its hugely profitable to sell your reputation to a scammer who will _slam_ as many people as they can as hard and as fast as they can. 21:12 < Taek> because the small ding will reduce your reputation by X% and the scammer will be able to make a profit greater than 1-X%? 21:12 < phantomcircuit> not to mention it's gonna be hard to find a buyer for a darknet admin reputation for 100k+ BTC 21:13 < Taek> other darknet admin hopefuls 21:13 < bramc> fungibility of reputation is generally speaking bad for the value of the reputation 21:14 < phantomcircuit> yeah lots of issues with that one 21:14 < phantomcircuit> but well 21:14 < phantomcircuit> there's no reason for this to even be possible 21:14 < phantomcircuit> multisg escrow is a thing that works 21:15 < gmaxwell> Taek: generally reputation hits have to be 'overstated' http://xkcd.com/325/ or they're easily whitewashed out with fair transactions at parity. 21:18 < Taek> I think that would depend on what the reputation is for 21:18 < Taek> if 97% approval means that you can expect to lose 3% of the financial value in your dealings with this party 21:18 -!- realcr [~real@bzq-109-67-130-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:18 < Taek> that might be a reasonable risk to take 21:20 -!- realcr [~real@bzq-109-67-130-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:20 < gmaxwell> I guess you lots tons to pirate40 and aethero (which both had 97% like reputations in bitcoin otc before they vanished with all the moniez) 21:21 < Taek> did they vanish with less than 3% of all the money that had ever passed through them? 21:23 < gmaxwell> no probably much more... because the exposure is tail loaded as they hyped up on their snowballing reputation at the end; but even if it was 3%... so? all the people with 100% losses on their trades are not thanking you and using your system again. 21:25 * Taek wonders if you could insure this sort of thing 21:26 < Taek> I think any worthwhile reputation system built within the next 5 years would have to be inside of a rather sterile environment 21:27 < Taek> which might limit it's initially usefulness, but even Bitcoin was essentially useless for a long time 21:27 < Taek> *initial 21:34 < gmaxwell> We have rather large reputation systems (otc and btc) each with many hundreds of active users, and in my view they are more or less failures. One way of looking at your example is, ignoring the tail loading and sybils and such. lets say that it really did mean that you'd lose everything 3% of the trades there, that means you could never trade with that party with positive expectation unless you 21:34 < gmaxwell> planned to make >3% on the sale... which means in a competative enviroment no one would probably wouldn't trade with them at all. 21:36 < Taek> my understanding is that otc opens up a market where none otherwise exists 21:36 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 21:36 < bramc> Let's use this reputation system known as 'banking licenses' 21:36 < Taek> if 3% (+ a 2% fee or whatever) is the only way to get bitcoins, you may decide that 5% overall expected fee is a worthwhile expense 21:36 < Taek> certainly doesn't compare to Coinbase's 1% 21:37 < Taek> but Coinbase isn't ubiquitous 21:37 < gmaxwell> Taek: but someone with a 3% negative reputation is 3% distant to everyone using the system. It doesn't matter what they'll accept, I mean they're suffering a 3% disadvantage on any resource that goes into them, and a 3% disadvantage on any that comes out. 21:38 < gmaxwell> So effectively, except where they have special connectivity they'd just become disconnected from the ecconomy if we really were to optimize this by the numbers and assume rational agents and yadda yadda. 21:41 -!- user7779_ [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-hdicmuzlrgtchstf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:41 < Taek> I don't quite follow. How does a 3% disadvantage on every trade result in a disconnection from the economy? 21:41 < Taek> It makes sense if you assume that there's a way to avoid the 3% disadvantage 21:41 < bramc> 'build a reputation system' generally doesn't work. It only sort of works when there's a highly centralized authority overseeing everything 21:42 < Taek> bramc: I certainly don't have an example of a working reputation system 21:42 < Taek> but I haven't given up on the idea that one might be possible 21:42 < bramc> ebay and amazon's reputations systems work okay 21:43 < Taek> *decentralized reputation system 21:43 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:43 < gmaxwell> I think ebay's only works in that it doesn't have much to do, lots of bitcoiners have been ripped off via ebay. It's not as much of a failure as bitcoin-otc, but its pretty thin protection. 21:44 < bramc> If you use bitcoin on ebay you're opting out of much of the protections they provide you 21:44 -!- user7779_ [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-hdicmuzlrgtchstf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:52 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@cpe-76-179-63-243.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:52 < gmaxwell> bramc: not bitcoin, but things like mining equipment. 21:53 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:53 < bramc> gmaxwell, 'Had JCF enabled, would not buy again' 21:53 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:53 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:600e:3951:3c0e:a08] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:01 < bramc> gmaxwell, 'Value per hash immediately dropped after I bought this equipment. Not trustworthy.' 22:04 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-chdhzqlezwqiofsm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:18 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 22:21 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:25 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:38 -!- gsdgdfs [Transisto@64.69.39.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:39 -!- Transisto [~Trans@modemcable026.188-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:45 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] /win6 22:48 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:53 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:59 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:59 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:59 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:05 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:09 -!- crowleyman [crowleyman@gateway/shell/bnc4free/x-novofxhcfndttggc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 23:16 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21 -!- Transisto [~Trans@modemcable026.188-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:22 -!- coiner [~linker@42.115.149.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:23 -!- gsdgdfs [Transisto@64.69.39.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:27 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:d1d7:5af7:6a00:69ee] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:36 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:37 -!- elevation [~ceptde@73.4.229.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:47 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:50 < bramc> Nobody seemed interested in my signature-based approach to supporting lighthouse functionality 23:53 < nubbins`> bummer 23:56 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Thu Mar 19 00:00:26 2015