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03:58 < poppingtonic> Hi, are there any references to proof-of-strength algorithms on bitcoin.ninja? I've seen the term used in descriptions of some alts, but can't find any documentation on the Internets.
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04:03 < justanotheruser> poppingtonic: what is proof-of-strength
04:03  * fluffypony suspects we're getting rickrolled
04:04 < sipa> i suppose it's also called "law of the jungle"
04:04 < sipa> to win a block, you just kill the operator of other miner pools
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04:05 < poppingtonic> When I searched DDG for the term, I found this link: http://digitalmoneytimes.com/crypto-news/a-closer-look-at-guerillacoins-proof-of-strength-feature/
04:05 < fluffypony> "It’s a more graphical representation of your staking weight"
04:06 < fluffypony> so lipstick on a pig
04:06 < poppingtonic> Which says that it's a measure of total staking weight your node possesses. I don't understand that.
04:06 < fluffypony> poppingtonic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-stake and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake
04:07 < poppingtonic> so this is related to proof-of-stake?
04:07 < fluffypony> yes
04:07 < fluffypony> it's literally just a GUI progress bar representing your stake weight
04:07 < justanotheruser> lol
04:07 < fluffypony> that's why I said, lipstick on a pig
04:09 < justanotheruser> fluffypony: but if it's in the GUI it must be real.
04:09 < fluffypony> "How Can GUI Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real" - Jaden Smith, 2015
04:10 < poppingtonic> lol, thanks fluffypony
04:10 < justanotheruser> Same case with darkcoin, they have video evidence of their client saying 6 confirmations just seconds after the transaction is broadcast, thus proving instant conf is real
04:11 < fluffypony> but THREE MasterNodes voted for it, so therefore!
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04:11  * fluffypony sighs 
04:14 < justanotheruser> fluffypony: seriously, I was arguing that it wasn't secure and they cited this video as proof https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBjUPj-TmFE&t=198
04:15 < fluffypony> justanotheruser: they don't respond well to criticism
04:16 < justanotheruser> meh, I don't want to say that people overestimating their understanding of computer security deserve to be scammed by darkcoin...
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04:19 < fluffypony> the whole Darkcoin situation over the last couple of days (I posted a breakdown of their threat model on Reddit and got insulted six ways from Sunday) is deeply reminiscent of the gmaxwell vs. Ripple/Stellar thing
04:19 < fluffypony> I even quoted him on it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg10864553#msg10864553
04:20 < justanotheruser> It's much easier to understand for the layman that you are working on a directly competing altcoin than that there are fundamental flaws in darkconi
04:21 < fluffypony> yep, and thus that much easier to deflect the criticism
04:23 < justanotheruser> Break it or shut it about our technology.... That is it that is all. Like I said I'm putting money where my mouth is... You should do the same. Break it... Or beat it... And this is coming from a major holder of your coin too...me.
04:24 < justanotheruser> shame on you for telling people about a flaw in their money rather than stealing their money
04:24 < fluffypony> hah hah
04:25 < fluffypony> one day I'll give a talk on "the burden of proof in cryptographic systems" and "how NOT to design an antifragile system", I'll have plenty of material to refer to
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05:29  * Adlai upvoted fluffypony re: darkcoin but felt like the kid patching up the flood dams with his finger
05:29 < fluffypony> lol
05:29 < fluffypony> never mind, I'll create my own cult...with blackjack and hookers!
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05:31  * Adlai prefers the cult with skipjack and wizards
05:32 < fluffypony> lol
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05:47 < instagibbs> good post fluffypony. If someone's not going to understand that burden of proof argument, they're a lost cause and won't be swayed by obviously DDoS vulnerabilities because "prove it ivory tower crypto-faggot"
05:51 < fluffypony> lol exactly
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05:52 < kanzure> you forgot to use "bitcoin maximalist" in that quote
05:52 < fluffypony> "Bitcoin purist"
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05:54 < instagibbs> Proof of No One Gives a Shit
05:54 < instagibbs> seriously though I think a blog post like that would be nice.
05:55 < sipa> ponogas!
05:55 < sipa> it even sounds nice
05:55 < fluffypony> for April 1st someone should announce that Bitcoin is going to be adding MasterNodes
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06:17 < bramc> Of course actual breaks are met with death threats
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06:21 < bramc> fluffypony, How did darkcoin manage to mine 8 million in its first day when it's supposed to mine 2800 per week? If bitcoin were released with a horribly adjusted proof of work factor, it would hit the factor of 4 limit a bunch of times quickly, so if were off by a billion it would give out 15 extra rewards before stabilizing.
06:22 < fluffypony> bramc: broken emissions curve formulae that doesn't match any of the 3 they've published in their various whitepapers
06:22 < fluffypony> coupled with a broken difficulty retarget
06:22 < justanotheruser> yeah, darkcoin should have done what bytecoin did and forged timestamps
06:22 < fluffypony> hah hah justanotheruser
06:25 < stonecoldpat> do people take darkcoin seriously? i dont know much about it, i just assumed by the name most people wouldnt bother with it
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06:28 < bramc> Rewards formulas seem like a strange thing to mess with. The one in bitcoin is brainless and works fine.
06:28 < tromp>  except for a newly launched coin that is stupid enough to give max rewards from block 0
06:30 < fluffypony> and have a difficulty so low that you mine a block every 26 seconds for the first 32 hours (instead of their targetted 2.5 minute block time)
06:31 < tromp> it worked for bitcoin because there were so few miners that the difficulty didnt need much adjustment
06:32 < fluffypony> yep
06:32 < fluffypony> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zufu1/a_great_podcast_by_lets_talk_bitcoin_discussing/cpn7fgn
06:32 < adam3us> bramc: comment from an economist who advises govts was that it basically doesnt matter so long as its simple and predictable.
06:32 < gavinandresen> Back before the altcoin explosion I’d get emails asking how I generated the testnet genesis block. My answer was “if you can’t figure that out yourself, you shouldn’t be messing with creating a coin”
06:32 < fluffypony> "Blocks 1 to 1152 had a 500 DRK reward. Blocks 1153 to 1728 had a 277 DRK reward. Then blocks 1729 to 3456 again had a 500 DRK reward. 3457 to 4032 drop to a 277 DRK reward, only to have blocks 4033 to 4501 have a 500 DRK reward. As you correctly point out it then goes to 56 DRK from block 4502 (although bizarrely decreases to 21 DRK up till block 5466, when it increases to 122 DRK)."
06:33 < adam3us> which i think is probably true… people are actually capable of adjusting for NPV
06:33 < fluffypony> "The actual frightening thing is to look at the time stamp on block 1 (the first block after the genesis block), which was mined on 2014-01-19 at 03:54:41. By the time we get to block 4501 a total of 1 993 604 DRK had been mined, but that block was mined on 2014-01-20 at 12:46:51, a mere 32 hours (118 330 seconds) later. That's an average of a block every 26.29 seconds."
06:33 < gavinandresen> Then somebody published a “how to generate a genesis block” article and that seemed to start the altcoin explosion....
06:33 < sipa> we need coingen again
06:33 < sipa> to remove the elitarism and allow any clueless person to innovate
06:34 < fluffypony> sipa: if we make it work with the top few forks that'd be extra special
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06:36 < fluffypony> stonecoldpat: unfortunately they do - there are some people who appear to have a reasonable level of intelligence that gush praise on how "innovative" it is
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06:38 < bramc> fluffypony, If their goal is 2.5 minutes (150 seconds) and they were doing 26 seconds, that's only a factor of 6
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06:39 < bramc> That reward schedule makes no goddamn sense of course. It looks like somebody trying to mess with you.
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06:39 < fluffypony> well their block reward is at least an excellent source of entropy
06:39 < fluffypony> :-P
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06:41 < bramc> http://dilbert.com/strip/2001-10-25
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06:41 < fluffypony> hah hah
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06:49 < stonecoldpat> from what im reading, its just nodes that can be set up by anyone (masternodes) to do coinjoin
06:49 < fluffypony> well you have to put 1000 DRK up to run a MasterNode
06:49 < fluffypony> and then you get paid
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06:52 < stonecoldpat> yeah, which is good for the rich who can invest their money to do something that makes them profit, but you must stil need to be careful how you spend your outputs? (to make sure the outputs are not linked with which mixnet you used)?
06:52 < fluffypony> well the idea is that it "premixes" your coins
06:53 < fluffypony> and then you can safely spend them on illegal stuffs, as long as you mix regularly
06:53 < fluffypony> (I use the term "safely" only in the loosest possible sense)
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06:57 < stonecoldpat> its spending them that i find difficult to believe they can maintain the privacy, if you spend them in certain ways then that may leak your links of the coins. (or at least increase some probability that they belong to you)
06:58 < stonecoldpat> so i put 1.5 drk in the mixnet, its mixed a few times, then i spend the 1.5 drk all at once (using each fixed denomination output from the mixnet), then it is pretty clear who owned the coins
06:58 < instagibbs> it's really important to note that it's essentially running a GreenAddress-style notary for instant transactions, and for trusted mixing. It's just jammed into the consensus protocol, and "randomized" for obfuscation.
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06:59 < instagibbs> Pros: You get a larger anonymity set initially. Cons: It's almost surely broken and is an existential risk.
07:01 < instagibbs> (Of course even a modest CoinShuffle network on Bitcoin would be larger than all Darkcoin transactions combined)
07:01 < bramc> I wonder how many 'decentralized' proof of stake systems are in practice run by a single counterparty. That should in principle be a reasonably stable setup.
07:01 < fluffypony> most of them, if they use PoS "checkpointing"
07:01 < instagibbs> if you believe in stake grinding... all I suppose :)
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07:03 < bramc> If somebody completely controls the system there's no need for hamburger making
07:03 < bramc> And they have reason to try to keep the price reasonably stable
07:03 < instagibbs> but it is just enough Decentralization Theater that it avoids, for now, the SEC
07:04 < bramc> So you'd expect that most cow-based systems would quickly get taken over by a single player who then pretends like they don't own it and it's functioning well on its own
07:05 < sipa> cow? copy on write?
07:05 < sipa> like a blockchain that forks on every spend :p
07:05 < fluffypony> instagibbs: although I'm fairly certain FinCEN will treat MasterNodes as money transmitters ;)
07:06 < bramc> cow = proof of steak
07:06 < instagibbs> fluffypony: Not sure about that personally. I kind of hope not due to the closeness to GA.it and regular old Mixing. I guess they're slightly closer due to them getting a cut of block subsidy?
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07:06 < sipa> bramc: ha
07:06 < bramc> That's an interesting point. If you put up DRK to participate you can't claim to be part of a decentralized system
07:06 < instagibbs> Super Secure Corned Beef Hashing
07:07 < bramc> In fact cow might completely run chicken of the sec in general
07:07 < instagibbs> you're a notary basically. And a trusted mixer. That's really it.
07:07 < fluffypony> instagibbs: yes - they're providing this peripheral service and getting paid for it, so I don't think they'd qualify for the exception that applies to miners
07:07 < bramc> chicken = a fowl
07:07 < sipa> bramc: seems like you're running afowl
07:08 < bramc> What is the legal theory behind miners not being service providers, at least for transactions?
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07:10 < instagibbs> regulators tend to work based on function, so the argument would be that functionally all they do is order transactions, giving them, at least individually, not a ton of power.
07:11 < instagibbs> (hand waving here)
07:11 < bramc> Ah, I see, on the argument that the person who made the order created it and it will be fulfilled sooner or later anyway
07:11 < instagibbs> And Bitcoin today largely works like that, yes. So they seem happy enough with that.
07:13 < bramc> Yeah cow seems to have potential problems with that. Masternodes are pretty unambiguously in the wrong.
07:13  * fluffypony is definitely not telling his vegan wife about this conversation
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07:15 < instagibbs> It's easy to argue that cow, as a consensus mechanism for blockchains, doesn't pass that test either. "Phone a friend" will functionally devolve into "query this bank for true chain". Don't think regulators will like that if/when that becomes necessary. Centralized checkpoints are even clearer.
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07:17 < instagibbs> and if no checkpoints/phoning, original stakeholders are central party, obviously.
07:18 < justanotheruser> instagibbs: and you can phone a friend for the correct rules of the bitcoin blockchain
07:19 < kanzure> this is why the rules of bitcoin should be derived from the name of the protocol, so that everyone can be sure they are using the right rules.
07:19 < justanotheruser> the difference being that you can calculate that a ton of money was spent calculating the PoW
07:19 < instagibbs> justanotheruser: Yes, of course. It's an argument of degrees. My point is the reasoning of why miners aren't considered as money transmitters will fail.
07:20 < instagibbs> may* fail
07:20 < bramc> I had an interesting thought about what the distribution of amount of time to mint a block should ideally be. There are two conflicting requirements: First, that whoever has fever resources should have a minimal chance of overtaking, and second, that it should be as spread out as possible to come to consensus faster
07:20 < gmaxwell> kanzure: yea, well, or the name should be the hash of the rules. :P
07:20 < instagibbs> Consensus rule changes are much hairier of course, since people will trust a small subset of people. I'm not sure regulators have totally figured that out yet.
07:20 < kanzure> er, right, i would also be okay with that
07:21 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i would also be interested in coming up with proxies for that, or replacements for things like "well we can't have the name be the hash of the rules, but we could do <x> instead that offers many of the same properties"
07:21 < kanzure> gmaxwell: like perhaps a qr code (yes i know qr codes are terrible)
07:21 < bramc> But there's a limit on how well the first requirement can be met anyway, because a counterparty with more than half the resources can win anyway, so it turns out you ideally want the time to make a block to be evenly spread out from n to 2n
07:22 < justanotheruser> Or we could just say that the best blockchain is probably the one that has had the most money spent on it
07:23 < kanzure> using the hash of the rules as a name is advantageous because you can more easily communicate to others the set of rules that you are talking about when you say "bitcoin". but surely there are other ways to do this without hash-based names?
07:23 < bramc> justanotheruser, Yes, go with the block chain with greater transaction volume. That could never go wrong.
07:23 < kanzure> bramc: that could easily go wrong
07:23 < justanotheruser> bramc: that sonuds like a terrible idea
07:23 < bramc> kanzure, that was sarcasm
07:23 < instagibbs> thatsthejoke.jpg
07:23 < fluffypony> that was sarcasm, no?
07:23 < fluffypony> lol
07:24 < fluffypony> needs more /s at the end
07:24 < instagibbs> justanotheruser: I mean that's the whole idea of embedded consensus. If people want to waste time on sticking in transactions you don't recognise as valid, take the spent energy and use it to further secure your version. No SPV of course.
07:24 < bramc> Granted it can be hard to tell sarcasm when you look at darkcoin's rewards schedule, which looks like a joke
07:24 < justanotheruser> I guess what I said was ambiguous, by money spent I mean PoW done
07:24 < justanotheruser> not transaction volume
07:25 < bramc> Yes, PoW is the right measure, very subtly different from blocks mined and transaction volume
07:27 < justanotheruser> And at that point you're somewhere between SPV and "true" full node security
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07:28 < bramc> Nobody ever seems interested in my comments on collaborative mining formulas. At least now I have a coherent goal in my next round of messing with it, which will happen after my board meeting today.
07:28 < stonecoldpat> fluffypony: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=978447.0 this is what i ment about spending outputs with drk
07:29 < instagibbs> bramc: I think it's general fatigue on "anti-pool" algorithms. I'll read any writeup you make fwiw.
07:30 < fluffypony> stonecoldpat: unfortunately he never followed up with a PoC or anything like that, so the Darkcoiners decided that thread was rubbish
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07:31 < bramc> fluffypony, What's a PoC?
07:31 < stonecoldpat> bramc: im guessing proof of construction
07:31 < fluffypony> Proof of Concept
07:31 < bramc> instagibbs, I'll certainly do a writeup when it's ready, it's been a bit of a moving target, and I of course babble on here about the most speculative parts, which probably doesn't help understanding.
07:32 < instagibbs> yeah not too helpful tbh. You guys that have already met are chatting a few squares ahead.
07:33 < stonecoldpat> thats quite annoying, if they sit back and think about it, then its just an obvious problem with any mixing
07:33 < instagibbs> stonecoldpat: you need same-sized outputs
07:33 < instagibbs> read the coinshuffle paper, it's the assumed way of doing it
07:34 < stonecoldpat> instagibbs: they are same-sized, the problem is that I spend 5/20 of the outputs, so its easy to link them
07:34 < stonecoldpat> instagibbs: yeah ive read it, its a good paper, but it doesnt solve spending the coins, just removes the need for a trusted third party to shuffle the outputs of a transaction
07:34 < instagibbs> yeah UTXO management is a headache
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07:35 < stonecoldpat> instagibbs: exactly, i think its an inherint problem with bitcoin or anything directly derived of it (like darkcoin)
07:35 < instagibbs> Even that said, simply getting to that point would give plausible deniability for many things.
07:36 < bramc> The monero/zerocoin approach with serial numbers seems to be a much more solid way of providing anonymity
07:36 < instagibbs> It's a modular improvement that will only help even more as we solve the other issues.
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07:37 < bramc> Short of that I don't see much utility in providing mixing directly in the protocol
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07:40 < gmaxwell> bramc: It is.  That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance.
07:40 < gmaxwell> :)
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07:49 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: but they're solving all of Bitcoin's problems! anonymity! instant transactions! visa-scale network! sporks!
07:50 < fluffypony> and it's all powered by Human Greed™
07:51 < instagibbs> stonecoldpat: I think active+passive mixing will be crucial. Just offer up outputs to people who want transactions now. Sort of like JoinMarket I guess. Only mix outputs together to get larger outputs, etc.
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09:44 < GAit> squid restart. expected result, squid restarts. Actual result, squid deletes all files from disk [UNRELEASED package] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1202858
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09:46 < phiche> that's the most totally awesome bug I've seen in a while!
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10:19 < kanzure> http://velvetpulse.com/2012/11/27/scribe-the-deterministic-transparent-record-replay-engine/
10:19 < kanzure> "replay of a recorded execution can transition to live execution at any point." where is your wizard magic god now?
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10:43 < ajweiss> hah! an early version of scribe showed up as a project in a class i took a few years ago
10:44 < ajweiss> never knew they got a paper out of it
10:45 < ajweiss> i think for a demo they replayed some unix utility under a different locale
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11:49 < gmaxwell> kanzure: really weird that that page makes no mention of http://rr-project.org/
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11:50 < gmaxwell> oh because its old, ah hi.
11:50 < gmaxwell> er ah ha
11:50 < gmaxwell> In any case, if that interests you, you probably want rr.
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12:12 < kanzure> "If you accidentally set a breakpoint in the wrong place and miss gathering critical information, your precious intermittent failure isn't lost. Just fix your breakpoint and then tell gdb to run the recording back from the beginning again."
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12:32 < Luke-Jr> it doesn't really work in my experience
12:32 < Luke-Jr> in theory, sure - but in practice, it's so slow …
12:33 < Adlai> so slow that the heisenbugs get bored?
12:33 < gmaxwell> hm? I've used rr while working on firefox and found it fine.
12:37 < Luke-Jr> it's just the gdb "record" command, right?
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12:37 < gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh no, record is too slow to be useful.
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12:38 < gmaxwell> record is slow because it basically records process state so you can go back... rr gives up that crazyness and instead records _all_ non-determinstic IO of the process. So to go back you can just replay the process from the start and end up in exactly the same state.
12:38 < Luke-Jr> oh, I get it. this is just dealing with IO basically
12:39 < gmaxwell> yea, including "inputs" like scheduling decisions for multithreaded programs.
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22:51 < gmaxwell> ugh: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30562s/bitnodes_will_be_releasing_plug_play_bitcoin_node/  ... we removed bitnodes as a dnsseed in bitcoin core because they kept engaging in sketchy behavior, and IMO dishonest. (e.g. we'd ask them to stop connecting at super high frequency to monitor every node in the network, and they said they would.. and a month later they instead had a perpetual
22:51 < gmaxwell>  link up to every node in the network, etc. etc.)
22:52 < kanzure> who is "we"? who made the request
22:52 < gmaxwell> Now they're announcing that they're selling "full node hardware" (an underpowered odroid c1 and some yet to be disclosed software load); ... this really doesn't fill me with excitement.
22:52 < gmaxwell> kanzure: bitcoin core commiters; jeff, myself mostly, pieter.
22:53 < gmaxwell> after several cycles of the above kind of miscommunication I got tired of repeating it (and worring if they were really up to no good, or if it was just some derpy miscommunication), and just removed them.
22:55 < gmaxwell> Since then they started a "pay people to run full nodes" program thats pretty seriously ill-advised (because the optimal way to pay is just proxy networks, so it breaks our ability to estimate measure actual full node deployment; and doesn't get us anything we were lacking (not like we're running out of sockets)); and now this.
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23:00 < satwo> gmaxwell: their website states "Bitnodes is currently being developed to estimate the size of the Bitcoin network by finding all the reachable nodes in the network." <- doesn't seem like they got the memo.
23:02 < gmaxwell> the complaint wasn't the spidering, its that they were taking what could have been a couple connections per day of spidering and instead using a lot of reasources (and later staying connected and monitoring transactions).
23:03 < gmaxwell> Kinda funny that the reddit crowd was shocked-shocked about chainanalysis or whatever that was but is goo-goo for this, obviously chainanalysis should have just paid everyone 8 cents per month. :-/
23:04 < satwo> not knowing any better, i was under the impression that chainanalysis was the first known company to attempt that... perhaps I should spend more time here and less time over at r/bitcoin ;)
23:05 < kanzure> avoiding reddit is a good strategy in general
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23:06 < gmaxwell> satwo: the only differences I'm aware of about chainanalysis is that they also ran a /24 worth of 'nodes' to get more connections from hosts behind nats that are not reachable from the outside world; and that they were explicitly and overtly a business to monitor user's location behavior.
23:06 < midnightmagic> kanzure: Except that *not* contributing to signal in a noise-ful environment is to ignore the massive propagation of lies and misconceptions, and we all suffer for it eventually because the only people who can correct them are the people who know better, and the people who know better (or *should* know better) won't grow as a population unless the pre-existing population builds numbers.
23:07 < gmaxwell> Interestingly, they distinguished themselves from BC.i by pointing out at least they'd never just post the IPs they collect; which I'm not sure what I think about that defense.
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23:14 < satwo> gmaxwell: never knew BC.i did that until now. They count almost 3.5 million unique ip addresses. Perhaps useful to encourage node operators to use tor?
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23:20 < satwo> midnightmagic: I always pay extra careful attention when I see a comment by a core dev or otherwise "respectable" technical person like peter todd... problem is, even those guys often get quickly accused of being shills for one thing or another, potentially leaving the casual observer in a state of confusion and doubt.
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23:22 < kanzure> uh, well they should be confused.
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23:26 < midnightmagic> satwo: Model a smarter person than an LCD casual observer as the audience and target of comments there, and set the tone light enough that you don't get downvote-dogpiled.
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23:40 < satwo> midnightmagic: Good advice; but I'm hesitant to post much until I have more confidence that I actually know what I'm talking about ;)
23:40 < satwo> Which is one reason I thought I'd start lurking around these parts.
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