--- Log opened Sun Mar 29 00:00:36 2015
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09:43 < andytoshi> this made me laugh https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1005487.msg10913091#msg10913091 "looks random to me, unless i'm missing something"
09:46 < fluffypony> lol
09:46 < Chillum> < 128 bit key = fail
09:47 < fluffypony> missing something like...I dunno...an understanding of randomness
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09:49 < fluffypony> speaking of gems
09:49 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10921551#msg10921551
09:50 < fluffypony> "Cryptography has never been a significant part of cryptocurrency - even though it may share the first few letters. It works on a system of digital signatures."
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10:21 < andytoshi> classic :D
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11:19 < gmaxwell> ...
11:20 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: it gets much worse, he doubles down on it
11:20 < STRML> what
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11:31 < andytoshi> in fairness, his doubling-down is citing vitalik saying almost the same words with "encryption" in place of "cryptography" when mocking a press article misusing words
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11:45 < fluffypony> yeah I saw that - he's misunderstanding what Vitalik was saying
11:46 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10922949#msg10922949
11:48 < fluffypony> classic
11:48 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: I didn't have the impression that vitalik had any great recognition of the scope and implications of these systems being cryptographic either. (E.g. just the long list of sloppy adhoc systems that turn out to be insecure once subject to critical inspection).
11:52 < STRML> how could you possible use bitcoin and not have any idea of the cryptography underpinning it
11:52 < Chillum> push gas, car go fast
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11:56 < adam3us> Chillum: btw i saw the Luke-Jr Chillum exchange on #bitcoin-dev.  Luke-Jr is correct, his point is that you really, actually can NOT assume there is a from address.  think about sending from coinbase, or bitstamp, or coinJoin transaction, or a mixer.  if you refund or assume that address private key is in the control of the person sending you money, bad you will lose.
11:57 < Chillum> I agree with that. But that only means a source does not equal a return address. It does not mean there is no source address
11:57 < Chillum> at the level that humans use bitcoin there is such a concept, even if there is no such concept at the core of the protocol
11:58 < adam3us> Chillum: well there are inputs for sure, but dont get in the habit of thinking a specific human is the sender, due to shared sending situations of which there are many.
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11:58 < adam3us> Chillum: yes but thats wrong, that has resulted in lost money, confusion; that concept needs to die
11:58 < Chillum> I never meant to imply that addresses represented a real world identity in any fashion. They are of course disconnected
11:58 < Chillum> I have to go now
11:59 < adam3us> Chillum: ok then
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12:43 < lmatteis> hello. maybe it's the wrong place to ask. but am looking for research regarding having the Web infrastructure (WWW, HTTP, etc) using a p2p model rather than a client-server model
12:47 < sipa> maybe it's the wrong place to ask. but am looking for research regarding having the transportation infrastructure (cars, trains, etc) using a air model rather than a road model
12:47 < sipa> :p
12:48 < lmatteis> lol
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12:49 < lmatteis> this is the only thing i found from the Bittorent people
12:49 < lmatteis> http://blog.bittorrent.com/2014/12/10/project-maelstrom-the-internet-we-build-next/
12:49 < lmatteis> but i'm not sure why they're not open-sourcing any of it
12:49 < lmatteis> how do they even make mone
12:49 < lmatteis> money
12:56 < nubbins`> how indeed would they make money without open-sourcing it? :s
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13:17 < amiller_> lmatteis, ask melvster (in pm or maybe #webpayments), he knows about web things, basically off topic here though
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13:28 < melvster> lmatteis try w3c payments group, or ask me if you have something more specific, perhaps better to continue this conversation on #webpayments or #swig
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17:19 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: thank you for drawing my attention to that lovely thread; it's quite a source of chuckles. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10925510#msg10925510
17:19 < fluffypony> hah hah
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17:20 < fluffypony> they've invoked the name of AnonyMint
17:20 < fluffypony> SO SAY WE ALL
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17:31 < andytoshi> that forum fascinates me, it's always so personal and so -fast- (ten pages of mudslinging in that thread since gmax's post six hours ago)
17:32 < midnightmagic> ... 'links to NSA and Cicada' ?
17:33 < fluffypony> midnightmagic: as part of the BCN scam "authenticity" push they tried create links to Cicada
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17:35 < fluffypony> and then they wrote some crazy blog post trying to imply the NSA was involved: http://web.archive.org/web/20141106091836/http://www.cryptobang.com/2014/10/05/what-nsa-created-cryptonote-for/
17:36 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, ironic for people people posting on a topic in which personal motivation should be essentially meaningless
17:36 < fluffypony> phantomcircuit: they can't argue technical merits, even those that think they can, so they inevitably fall back to ad hominems
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18:05 < kanzure> some of that is probably because they are at a loss for how to acquire the knowledge required to evaluate technical detail
18:05 < kanzure> it's not like there's hyperlinks to all of the 300 hours of studying you need to perform
18:06 < nsh> there could be
18:09 < kanzure> but there weren't?
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18:43 < andytoshi> kanzure: i think for many of these systems it'd be more than 300 hours of studying even for a very smart person with a good layman's cs/programming/crypto/cs background and who was thinking properly about trust models and the goals of cryptography as applied in these systems
18:43 < andytoshi> and that's just to spot the bs ... if one of these systems was actually correct, given how complex they are i don't think any human could determine this!
18:44 < andytoshi> but it's true that we can improve things a lot by providing information (and you've done a ton of very productive work in this regard)
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18:52  * Adlai has spent over 300 hours, probably closer to 1000, in self-teaching; and still feels totally unqualified to make all but the most guarded of statements on such topics
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18:54  * Adlai wouldn't be surprised if, had nobody unqualified to refute bitcoin's security model "bought in", the system would never have bootstrapped
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19:12 < gmaxwell> it doesn't help that there are a lot of dead ends that impede learning; e.g. no one that spends much time around some of the people that emit nothing but non-stop technobabble are going to learn much; since if you try you can't make any sense of it.
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19:22 < Adlai> also, "a little learning is a dangerous thing", or at best - useless
19:22 < smooth> gmaxwell: many of the people involved have no particlar interest in learning, it is a fantasy stock market game. that can't be helped unless there were another killer app for distributed consensus that did not involve finance at all
19:23 < Adlai> but people don't get this riled up about fantasy stocks, that forum thread reminds me of the drunken mobs around non-fantasy stadiums
19:23 < gmaxwell> yea, actually I think I've remarked before that the only other places I've seen the kind of poisonous behavior I've seen so often in the altcoin forums is the yahoo stock forums.
19:24 < smooth> Adlai: people dont really trade fantasy stocks for money because you can trade real ones
19:24 < smooth> and if you saw any of the tech stock forums around in the pre-2000 era it was much the same
19:24 < gmaxwell> Adlai: people do get this riled up about random ass stocks. See what smooth says; well it still goes on today too.
19:24 < kanzure> haha gmaxwell has looked at the yahoo stock forums
19:24  * Adlai is implying that for somebody to get so emotionally involved in these topics, it's not fantasy anymore
19:24 < kanzure> that's cute
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19:24 < kanzure> by which i mean strange.
19:25 < Adlai> you know what's cuter? that real live cryptographers still read threads on bitcointalk...
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19:25 < gmaxwell> kanzure: only because I was directed there in the past by people going "holy shit!" :)
19:27  * Adlai is being cynical... i'm actually impressed that yous have the energy to post reasoned/polite responses in such threads
19:27 < smooth> Adlai: i use the term fantasy because these are not real stocks in the sense of having actual real-world assets (even intangible ones). they are brands and people get attached and fight over them, much like sports, or as gmaxwell says random ass stocks
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19:28 < Adlai> there is real-world value attached to these snake-oil brands.
19:28 < gmaxwell> "Sports fans", I call it. Apologies to any of you that are actually into some sport or another and haven't found yourself setting the other team's fans cars on fire recently. :)
19:28 < smooth> Adlai: only because the 'fans' attach that value. its little different from an sf giants shirt costing $50 and if I make up a 'smooth' short i'd be lucky to get 50c for it
19:28 < gmaxwell> It's not just the value, people get caught up in this stuff even when they don't have any direct monetary skin in the game.
19:29 < smooth> gmaxwell: jinx
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19:29 < smooth> gmaxwell: agree, many of the 'combatants' dont have any real value at stake imo
19:29 < smooth> true in stock forums too
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19:31 < gmaxwell> E.g. I had a journalist that reports on altcoin stuff, who says he owns none of it himself, basically cussing me out because of some of my comments that I think are pretty moderate (e.g. the 'network effect matters hugely' and 'its not in the interest of public adoption to go about rebooting network effect every time we want a new feature'). He was clearly very emotionally invested in the 'fight'
19:31 < gmaxwell> , but I totally believe his word that he doesn't actually own any cryptocurrency at all. Same way people get worked up about a sports team even though they don't own it, don't play in it, etc.
19:32 < Adlai> maybe he had reputational investment due to previously published words?
19:32 < smooth> gmaxwell: journalist that reports on altcoin stuff <= has a stake, though i agree about emotional investment too
19:33 < gmaxwell> Adlai: yea, some I'm sure. But at least it's not about expecting a huge payday when some altcoin or another somehow achieves widespread use.
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19:45 < xenog> @gmaxwell, this guy should probably read Daniel Krawisz at the mempool.
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19:58 < gmaxwell> As far as why I commented on that thread-- beyond the whole basic amusement, and people being wrong on the internet... I've been musing about on a little essay for a while on what is cryptography.  Back in the early 90s (and somewhat before, though that was before my awareness of) many people were enthralled by the potential of technology to equalize people and instutions, "information wants to b
19:58 < gmaxwell> e free"-- a common battle cry. I bought into it too, seeing great promise there. But information's power, has another side... they say sunlight is the ultimate solvent, washing away greed and corruption, and thats true... but like any other solvent its also morally indifferent without care it will just as easily wash away privacy, self-dignity, the freedom to conspire to promote justice against p
19:58 < gmaxwell> owerful interests. Uncontrolled it can cement the power imbalances we thought it would erase. Cryptography is our fire pit, where we tame the power of free information to suit human needs and human morality. And it's really hard because it shouldn't be possible at all. If you can prove any non-trivial cryptosystem secure in a strong sense you have a direct proof that N!=NP, and it's not good enou
19:58 < gmaxwell> gh to be mostly secure since the context is always adversarial. It seems unlikely but it may still turn out that secure cryptography is eventually discovered to be impossible. Civil engineers aren't trying to build buildings that can't be taken down, only ones that don't spontaneously collapse in the face of random natural forces, and thats hard enough. And because software is considered "cheap",
19:58 < gmaxwell>  due to the zero marginal cost of reproduction, we underfund it enormously. AFAIK the most complex system built by mechinical engineers are on the scale of the space shuttle, with 2.5 million parts and a total program cost of around $200 billion dollars. Firefox, just one application used by hundreds of millions of people every day is about 20 million lines of code, and far far less funding. And
19:58 < gmaxwell> yet, ignoring any belief in gremlins, the shuttle doesn't need to withstand people actively trying to break it. The more cryptographic parts of firefox fail pretty much constantly, with every update fixing a multitude of severe bugs that would totally undermine your privacy or security (and the same for its competition). We just tolerate it, but in cryptocurrency we can't tolerate it. It's just a
19:58 < gmaxwell>  mess, and really the first step in dealing it needs to be accepting the full scope and gravity of the problem.
20:01  * Adlai subscribes to the "tools magnify power" school of dystopianism
20:02 < zooko> awesome
20:02 < zooko> more rant please
20:02 < petertodd> gmaxwell: "yet, ignoring any belief in gremlins" <- I once talked to a nuclear plant engineer who claimed that the design of the candu reactors did have a criteria for resistance to delibrate sabotague - I'd be surprised if the criteria was very good, but at least they were thinking about it
20:02 < moa> a cryptographer's confession?
20:02 < moa> jk
20:02 < Adlai> s/confession/Apology/
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20:05 < moa> yeah sabotage is hard to design for, like pilots willfully flying planes into the mountains, while sitting in cockpit packed with hardware and software designed to prevent such outcomes
20:05 < gmaxwell> Part of the general lack of adversaril models in civil engineering is because its sort of crazy. Build a building that can't be taken down in an attack? give me a break.  We really should be more surprised that cryptography works at all.
20:05 < moa> most times the most delicate instrument in the machine is the human brain at the controls
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20:06 < petertodd> gmaxwell: the other thing is you don't generally need it the way you do in crypto - the effect of actions is relatively easy to predict and localized in a way tht just isn't true in software
20:06 < kanzure> gmaxwell: ehh you would have to elaborate on the differences of the operational reliability and requirements of space shuttle software versus firefox (e.g. firefox gets many billion more hours per month than the an inactive space shuttle)
20:06 < zooko> moa: that reminds me of one of my side projects of fixing vulns in human brains.
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20:06 < gmaxwell> petertodd: modern trend in reactor design is "intrensically safe"; but this is mostly because the original school of design (add lots of safty systems) kept blowing up. It's unclear if the modern designs really are much safer in practice than the old boiling water plants due to the general lack of construction or so I'm told. (or at least was the opinion of a nuclear plant engineer I knew in my t
20:06 < gmaxwell> eens)
20:06 < kanzure> zooko: that wont work, you will have to migrate to software
20:07 < Adlai> cryptography (even bitcoin) works up to a point. steel beams might buckle in the heat of burning jet fuel, but a single-prop plane doesn't take them down.
20:07 < kanzure> Adlai: what's your point
20:07 < petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, and note how modern security design is somewhat moving towards similar concepts of "intrensically safe" because "review it really carefully" doesn't work
20:07 < gmaxwell> kanzure: that arguably justfies a much greater investment; As I said, it's my view that we under invest in software integrity. Perhaps we must because the answer would be that we couldn't afford it otherwise; but that doesn't mean that we're investing adequately.
20:08 < zooko> kanzure: disagree
20:08 < Adlai> kanzure: systems are designed with a level of attack resistence in mind
20:08 < gmaxwell> Adlai: some are at least.
20:08 < petertodd> gmaxwell: meanwhile instead of investing in safer software US "cybercommand" wants to invest in offensive attack capability... :/
20:09 < Adlai> s/are/should be, for the sake of the engineers' sanity and peace of mind/
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20:10 < gmaxwell> kanzure: the best counterargument I have to my position is that we have much better debugging tools for software than are available for mechnical or civil engineering. ... which is good because if we didn't we'd be totally screwed. It's not clear how much they help in the adversarial model as opposed to dealing with normal exposions.
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20:11 < moa> triple redundant OS and intrinsically safe is standard design protocol in oil/gas and nuclear control systems
20:11 < moa> and fail to safe state
20:11 < petertodd> heh, in my last job it was frequently literally impossible to "debug"" things because you had circuits operating at physical limits - measuring anything in themwas imposible
20:12 < petertodd> moa: note how when you say "redundant" that often (and hopefully!) means the actual OS itself is built by a different team
20:13 < moa> maybe ... mostly just running in parallel for failover or watching each other
20:13 < kanzure> fail safes usually fail by failing to fail safe
20:14 < kanzure> </nsh>
20:14 < moa> sliding down the fault tree ..
20:14 < gmaxwell> right fail to safe state is a weaker condition then "intrensically safe", the later is more like "even if everything goes wrong, its safe"  the fomer is thats like "if the control signal goes away the moderator rods are automatically inserted" (and then it turns out that the control system can fail in such a way that the signal gets stuck instead of going away, and everyone in a 40mi radius is sa
20:14 < gmaxwell> d).
20:14 < moa> into catastrophe
20:15 < gmaxwell> It's pretty interesting to read about industrial disasters and air crashes; they're virtual all multiple-faults... because the engineers that built the systems were not idiots and knew that there was danger and built in safeties.
20:16 < kanzure> i wonder if aerospace engineers have to have screaming matches to get the opportunity to design reliability into their systems
20:17 < petertodd> kanzure: the question isn't *if* they design reliability, but how much
20:17 < gmaxwell> (often three faults, at least one of which is usually a human error)
20:17 < petertodd> kanzure: equally, thescreaming matches generaly come from disagreements about how much reliability they got for their money
20:18 < gmaxwell> There is an argument that you can only do so much, and past that point doing more reduces safty; or kills the project due to cost and then you don't get the positive benefits of whatever you were building. At the same time there is moral hazard because the costs of failure are often externalized in one way or another.
20:19 < kanzure> petertodd: well i mean i was comparing ot the screaming that happens in software land ("uhh of course we need reliability and security")
20:19 < jcorgan> it only seems that when organizations have to pay directly the damages from their faulty software does the feedback loop get closed
20:19 < moa> imho reliability engineering in aerospace is not as much developed as in other industries because historically they just load it into pilot protocols, only relatively recently with advanced fly-by-wire and autopilots can they now consider triple sensor inputs, etc (like the one failed pitot tube that caused a disaster)
20:19 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: even that... kinda tricky. I mean, there is an incentive to gamble in large orgs. Make a high risk bet, get a bonus and a promotion. Bet fails? company folds and you go on to work someplace else.
20:20 < petertodd> kanzure: yeah, in my experience that's not the case, however unlike in software (seemingly) you expect really critical peer review constantly by everyone
20:20 < jcorgan> gmaxwell: well, that sorta proves my point--you have people that can make faulty decisions and not be held accountable
20:21 < kanzure> i have always expected that in software, and usually i only get that by irc )
20:21 < kanzure> :)
20:25 < Taek> As I said, it's my view that we under invest in software integrity. Perhaps we must because the answer would be that we couldn't afford it otherwise; ==> software with less features would help
20:25 < Taek> *the above is a gmaxwell quote
20:26 < Taek> it's my view that most software has many many unnecessary features
20:26 < Taek> fewer features means less surface area AND more time to invest towards reliability
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20:31 < gmaxwell> Taek: hard to say, a nice -- if somewhat dated now-- example is the GNU utilities vs traditional unix tools. Back in the bad old days of unix (and less so today) each vendor shipped with their own implemention of all the basic commands, and in spite of being old and having almost no features they turned out to be constantly full of bugs... by comparison the GNU competition was often overflowing w
20:31 < gmaxwell> ith features, including stupid ones that probably no one ever uses, and yet were comparitively bug free. (There have been a number of studies pointing this out, e.g. running fuzzers on the tools shortly after fuzzers became a trendy thing).
20:32 < gmaxwell> I think a lot of that just came from a focus on craftsmanship over schedule. Features and fewer bugs were both side effects of caring about doing a good job.
20:33 < Taek> would 'many eyes' also play into that? Also, when you have 5 or 10 or X reimplementations of something, each reimplementation could be counted as its own set of features
20:34 < jcorgan> agree on craftmanship vs. schedule.
20:34 < jcorgan> releasing things with a commerical motivation is fraught with the risk that your competition will beat you
20:34 < jcorgan> and with software the cost to release a "patch" is low
20:35 < jcorgan> so you sort of get this rolling bugginess where old ones get fixed and new ones come online :)
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20:36 < gmaxwell> I dunno that many eyes has ever worked all that well; and in the early days of the GNU utils they certantly didn't have as many eyes on using them as the vendor tools that shipped by default on each and every system...  I can't say that more eyes has no effect, but I think its given too much credit. Even when it contributes to you knowing about bugs, it doesn't mean that you fix them.
20:40 < kanzure> well, at minimum open-source saves me a lot of time that i would otherwise spend reimplementing junk
20:40 < smooth> gmaxwell: eyes on using them is not the same as eyes on the code. there were many, many more eyes on most of the gnu tool code, with some exceptions such as compiler internals (I think)
20:41 < Taek> do you think that open source just draws a higher standard out of developers?
20:41 < smooth> for example, one way that eyes helped with gnu tools was porting. If you ported to a system with different character encodings you would come across edge cases and probably fix them, which later can lead to better fuzz-resistence even if that wasn't the original goal
20:42 < smooth> similary system call behavior, etc.
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20:43 < gmaxwell> smooth: many more often means two people instead of one. My expirence across many projects is that the actual levels of detailed scrutiny on code is quite low, even when the project is widely used and very active.
20:44 < smooth> gmaxwell: agree on detailed scrutiny, not sure about the value of the long tail of many eyes looking a little bit, but lean toward seeing a lot of value there (granted not strong support in that statement)
20:44 < gmaxwell> In something like firefox you can be relatively confident that two sets of eyes have actually read every piece of code because there is a organized review process that requires it. But I would estimate the the eyes per line of code is under two in most projects and very seldom higher than 3 at least across whole projects... particular bits obviously get more attention.
20:45 < kanzure> random q, but did you ever read any of lkcl's rants on the mozilla issue trackers and did you have opinions about those rants
20:46 < smooth> gmaxwell: i dunno what the eyes per line of code is, there are a lot of eyes "out there". Firefox may be a worse case for this than say gnu tools becausse it is enormous, doesn't have a great starting point, and has evolved quickly to external demands
20:47 < smooth> also im somewhat skeptical of a formal process requiring things. you can require people to look,l but you cant require them to think.
20:47 < kanzure> not enough people are encouraged to read code. you can't get many people to even read bitcoin core source code (which explains why there's zero comments).
20:47 < gmaxwell> smooth: dunno, have any of you read the bash or grep source code? (I've read the grep source code, well parts of it)
20:47 < kanzure> yes but only by accident, i think
20:48 < gmaxwell> smooth: the process requirements for review help in more ways than you would expect. For one, it removes a default social pressure against review. Without it, people feel like you're obstructing them when you review their code. With it, you're doing them a favor by picking up the review.
20:48 < smooth> kanzure> yes but only by accident <= exactly
20:48 < smooth> btw, i have read parts of probably every gnu tool
20:48 < kanzure> many code reviews devolve into syntax nitpicking anyway, which is sort of silly since code formatting tools do that automatically (well, to some extent)
20:49 < smooth> and wrote some parts too, fwiw, so i guess im biased
20:49 < gmaxwell> kanzure: The nit picking is actually good too though, because it can act as part of a consensus process where we all agree that we're working hard to build something high quality, and that we're going to agree on what high quality means, and we're going to take the time to do it, even it does mean a few retries.
20:50 < kanzure> i agree with that aspect, i should have said nitpicking without critical design review
20:50 < kanzure> er, i mean syntax nitpicking is acceptable but i would better design commentary
20:50 < kanzure> *i would prefer
20:50 < gmaxwell> smooth: fair enough, though this isn't true for most people (I think I've read non-trivial amounts of GCC code, chasing bugs, and a few other things. well in recent years, when I was learning to program I read a lot more code; it's a practice I think that isn't generally encouraged enough)
20:51 < smooth> gmaxwell: agree, and afk
20:51 < gmaxwell> kanzure: sometimes the nits help break people out of their own lazyness, where you realize that it would be better to do it X way, but 'meh'. The reviewer doesn't have to write it, so the cost to them to suggest it is lower.
20:51 < kanzure> heh my nit to design ratio is like 4:1 at least
20:59 < gmaxwell> This is kind of a bummer; http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30q57y/question_for_core_devs_how_much_is_the_private/cpv4pcx
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21:03 < kanzure> yes but that same argument can also be used to say "open-source software can be used by spy agencies" which is also a yawn statement
21:03 < kanzure> it's like people complaining about how food is "dual use" (eaten both by good/bad guys)
21:03 < moa> gmaxwell: that slur against blockstream's motivations in the last sentence seems misplaced?
21:04 < zooko> gmaxwell: I sent you IRC privmsgs. Never sure if those go through.
21:05 < zooko> Actually they always go through, but there was this one time years ago when they got silently squelched if somethingsomethingm and so I've never trusted them since. :-)
21:05 < jcorgan> gmaxwell: there you go again slumming on r/bitcoin, as if anything of importance happens there
21:05 < gmaxwell> moa: it's just a needlessly specific attack. If they want to argue that you shouldn't trust _anyone_, I'd certantly agree. But damn feels kinda shitty to be singled out after doing quite a bit to push user privacy and autotomy in ths space, and working hard to undermine survailance things.
21:07 < moa> and providing core dev time to protocol dev work ... maybe he meant to say blockchain and was confused
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21:07 < moa> to many blocks
21:07 < moa> blockthingys
21:07 < gmaxwell> yea, indeed, if someone wanted to complain about bc.i and privacy, thats not hard to do.
21:11 < zooko> I looked at that just now, and my read of it is that the person was reaching for "Well-funded Bitcoin startup", and "Blockstream" is the thing that they find when they reach for that in their head.
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21:12 < zooko> But, I feel your pain. The more successful you are the more of that pain you can look forward to.
21:12 < kanzure> nonsense, track records matter
21:13 < jcorgan> kanzure: success breeds resentment and envy, and even intolerance, from those who did not achieve that success
21:14 < kanzure> so?
21:14 < gmaxwell> well, it's just kind of a bummer, not the end of the world.  And I just don't mean in the sense that being picked on is no fun, ... I'd rather have the good fortune of effective critics; that particular line of argument is probably the most misplaced of the ones they could make.
21:14 < jcorgan> so zooko's comment holds.  unless yours was referring to something else and I misread
21:14 < kanzure> i am not convinced that gmaxwell would care about such a pathetic attempt at criticism, certainly not one so wrong
21:15 < kanzure> ah he said just as much
21:15 < kanzure> welp my job here is done
21:15 < gmaxwell> yea, I don't really mind it. Rather, sort of wishing for everyones sake that it were better directed. :)
21:15 < gmaxwell> (/constructed)
21:17 < gmaxwell> like, you know, not making a complaint of anti-privacy about a company formed by a group of people with some of the most efforts for privacy in that space; whos staff has been actively working on improving it (go look at sipa's recent commits, esp to 0.10 backports). They could complain that sidechains aren't a thing yet or something. :)
21:18 < jcorgan> meh.  you guys just go execute and succeed, don't let the trolls occupy too much of your grey matter
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21:19 < gmaxwell> I do try to avoid the trap of binning everyone critical as a troll... :) I've seen that not work out so well for some.
21:23 < satwo> gmaxwell: imagine how Satoshi must feel when he sees a comment along the lines of "bitcoin was invented by the NSA to institute a mandatory one-world currency under their complete surveillance and control"
21:23 < gmaxwell> "Darn, figured me out."
21:23 < kanzure> why should i imagine that
21:25 < gmaxwell> satwo: it's pretty flattering to hear that your works is really a secret plot by the best funded intelligence agencies and number one single employer of mathematicians.  :)
21:25 < moa> the manhattan project?
21:26 < satwo> gmaxwell: touche.
21:28 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
21:30 < gmaxwell> Someone at libre planet last weekend (aaron@snowdrift.coop) had asked me what other projects I worked on, and when I mentioned Bitcoin he said "I am not an Bitcoin apologist" and I said "Good, they get a bit tiring." and he then proceded to try to clarify what apologist meant, and was surprised that someone could work on the project without being the most extreme proponent of it that he'd encount
21:30 < gmaxwell> ered.  I had a good time talking about all the varrious unknows and limitations that people gloss over.  Worst fate ever is to have ineffective critics and misguided advocates. ::sigh::.
21:37 < Luke-Jr> lol
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21:46 < moa> ha
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 30 00:00:37 2015