--- Log opened Mon Mar 30 00:00:37 2015
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01:09 < fluffypony> moa: don't attribute to mistake what you can attribute to stupidity (re: blockthingys)
01:13 < fluffypony> I also don't get his assertion, he speaks about core/protocol dev and then jumps to talking about Jan Moller as an example of a dev who has been "bought"...except Jan Moller hasn't contribute anything to core?
01:14 < fluffypony> bizarre reductionist arguments
01:18 < moa> nor Cody Wilson afaik, it's all a pretty hodge-podge amalgam of half-ideas ... unfortunately his initial point that private companies building on top of bitcoin could contribute more back to core dev is worth making.
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01:37 < fluffypony> moa: so basically he's decide how Bitcoin should be developed, and any deviation from that singular vision is clearly in violation of his imaginary perfect scenario
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03:19 < nsh> andy-logbot, pointer?
03:19 < andy-logbot> See http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/2015-03-30.html
03:19 < nsh> (stillb0rk)
03:20 < fluffypony> nsh: what's it supposed to do?
03:20 < nsh> point to the current entry in the logs (last line anchor), in theory
03:20 < fluffypony> oic
03:20 < nsh> which would be this: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-03-30/?msg=35378024&page=3
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03:48 < rusty> Feedback welcome: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
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03:53 < fluffypony> nice rusty
03:53 < fluffypony> that is significantly easier for me to parse
03:54 < rusty> fluffypony: I ambitiously promised more to come... that's basically just 3.2 and part of 3.3 from the paper.
03:54 < fluffypony> I noticed
03:54 < fluffypony> I'm excited to read the next bi
03:54 < fluffypony> *bit
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03:56 < rusty> fluffypony: Want to write it for me? :)
03:57 < fluffypony> I don't mind writing it *with* you :-P
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03:58 < rusty> fluffypony: But... *I'm* only writing it because I want to read it!  Reading the paper is *hard*!
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04:00 < fluffypony> cryptography, in general, is hard...it just depends on if we're talking about discrete logarithm hardness or integer factorisation hardness
04:00  * fluffypony makes joke
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04:03 < rusty> fluffypony: I promise you I laughed, but not provably.
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06:01 < instagibbs> rusty: nice writeup
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06:18 < kanzure> .title
06:18 < yoleaux> Lightning Networks Part I: Revocable Transactions - Rusty Russell's Coding Blog
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06:21 < kanzure> "Breakthrough silicon scanning discovers backdoor in military chip" https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/ches2012-backdoor.pdf
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06:21 < kanzure> (2012)
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06:25 < kanzure> "Malicious SHA-1" https://malicioussha1.github.io/
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08:51 < fluffypony> oh Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30t3k4/proofofstake_is_more_decentralized_efficient_and/
08:51 < fluffypony> they've now suckered jgarzik into the debate
08:52 < jgarzik> fluffypony, I'm just a drive-by commenter, rather than a debater ;p
08:53 < fluffypony> lol
08:53 < jgarzik> fluffypony, as a public service I try to at least speak up and provide "this paper is bullshit" counter
08:53 < jgarzik> maybe that is too egotistical ;p
08:53 < fluffypony> no I think it's necessary
08:53 < fluffypony> it's just that they have an answer for everything
08:55 < fluffypony> this Neucoin crowd seem to have doomed themselves by alienating PoS supporters as well, they've apparently cherry-picked bits from NuBits and Blackcoin without attributing it to them
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09:00 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] are we still talking about neucoin
09:01 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] oh, they're still posting in r/bitcoin.
09:01 < fluffypony> yes
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09:15 < fluffypony> "The main purpose of PoS is not distribution. It's first and foremost an consensus mechanism. PoS coins can (and have: Peercoin, Blackcoin etc) use PoW as a distribution mechanism. The reason we didn't do it is we believe PoS allows to design a smarter distribution mechanism"
09:15  * fluffypony rolls eyes
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09:19 < gmaxwell> 0_o
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09:22 < kanzure> jgarzik: "Separate of powers" -> "Separation of powers"
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09:25 < jgarzik> kanzure, fixed
09:26 < kanzure> jgarzik: notfixed http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30t3k4/proofofstake_is_more_decentralized_efficient_and/cpvl80r
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09:28 < jgarzik> kanzure, fixed for me, click reload.  the other comment is not authored by me.
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09:29 < kanzure> ah i forgot their page caching rules. yes, the individual link works.
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09:35 < satwo> all the noise created by the altcoin/scamcoin scene may actually serve a positive, if unintended, purpose: keeping potential scammers and unscrupulous types from focusing their energy on what really matters in the long run (bitcoin and, I think, cryptonote/monero)
09:36 < Chillum> without scammers the bitcoin community would be in a terribly insecure state
09:36 < Chillum> consider it field hardening of the protocol and best practices
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09:37 < satwo> good point.
09:37 < DrGrid> And the two are totally not Altcoins, lol! Choose your way either you're a maximalist or nothing.
09:37 < satwo> Monero is not an altcoin, it is a fundamentally different protocol.
09:39 < fluffypony> we're veering into #bitcoin territory, folks...
09:39 < kanzure> yes
09:39 < satwo> sorry, that's my fault... not really sure where to have those types of discussions
09:39 < kanzure> in #bitcoin
09:39 < satwo> (i gathered that :))
09:40 < satwo> but thanks for the heads up
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11:03 < andytoshi> "The author even admits in his own conclusion: “there is no rigorous argument that it is impossible to obtain a distributed consensus without provably consuming some resource outside the system.”" what a dumbass, wasting time and energy on burden of correctness
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11:11 < andytoshi> (for those missing context, i am faceteously calling myself a dumbass -- i don't mean to make this channel seem unfriendly :))
11:13 < fluffypony> I saw that jibe
11:13 < fluffypony> and decided not to mention it
11:14 < Taek> that would be a nice proof to have though - is anyone working on building one?
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11:21 < andytoshi> Taek: it's really hard, try to even formalize the claim
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11:22 < gmaxwell> Taek: those kinds of proofs usually are not so useful, they're often either circular or so narroly defined so as to be meaningless.
11:23 < gmaxwell> E.g.  Assuming X, Y, Z you can't achieve exactly R, Q, N.  They're not totally worthless because they can help focus your thinking when you're trying to do precisely the impossible thing. But usually the answer is to change the assumptions or deliverables slightly.
11:24 < andytoshi> ANN: for anyone interested in my school situation, i just sent an email to my supervisor in the CS department at UT saying that i'm leaving to return to the math dept. rather than doing academic crypto i'll be doing something like network information theory (not that i'll stop doing actual crypto here ofc :) the academic stuff was entirely a distraction from that anyway). the main reason is that
11:24 < andytoshi> switching departments would require me to do an extra couple years of coursework, which would be a thorough waste of my time (e.g. i'd have to do a compilers course, a database course, etc, because i don't have a CS degree). this also prevents me from joining the CS dept at any other schools; i am open to joining the math dept somewhere else if i could do more cryptographic work, but it's not a
11:24 < andytoshi> strong desire
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11:25 < andytoshi> Taek: i think i made the statement much more concrete and useful in the new pos.pdf; there were some things i was thinking about really unclearly that i was able to figure out
11:25 < andytoshi> e.g. the realization that pos can (in principle and practice) give you a centralized consensus if the initial stakeholder always prevents others from joining. before i sorta assumed that consensus would always fail
11:26 < andytoshi> and how pos related to this fuzzy "DMMS" concept in my head; i thought pos was a broken dmms but now i think it's just totally different and trying to attack it for being a bad dmms would be a strawman
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11:29 < fluffypony> andytoshi: would there be any value in the "learnings" from the extra few years, or is it too tangential to bother?
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11:31 < andytoshi> fluffypony: no, zero value
11:31 < fluffypony> yeah I figured
11:31 < fluffypony> none of the core MRL guys are in comp sci, they're all pure maths
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11:32 < andytoshi> fluffypony: in the last six years the "good" courses i've taken required nothing at all from me; the bad ones (like these) would involve a lot of gruntwork. but i have never attended lecture and never learned anything from them, they are always just in the way of my actual learning
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11:39 < fluffypony> omg
11:39 < fluffypony> no
11:39  * fluffypony bangs head into wall
11:39 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10932356#msg10932356
11:39 < fluffypony> "it's more like math hasn't got to the stage where it can describe complex systems, i.e. chaotic systems, e.g. weather, turbulence, market behaviour.  That's not a 'human element', it's a 'chaotic element'.  Cryptography's purpose is to obscure information for the purpose of un-obscuring it later.  Which is essential for underpinnings of mechanics of crypto currency.  But when you want to start to lose information like you do with
11:39 < fluffypony>  anonymity, (in my opinion) it's not the best suited way.  Because it's essentially reversible with the right tools (because the information is confined in one place, it security relies on your ability to decode it)."
11:40 < fluffypony> sorry, andytoshi, you may as well give up now. math just hasn't got to the stage where it can describe complex systems like MasterNodes
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11:41 < fluffypony> pretty much all you can do with maths is like your bill at the restaurant and calculate the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow
11:41 < andytoshi> fluffypony: ya, i am gonna type a response to that at some point
11:41 < andytoshi> he PM'd me asking me to
11:42 < andytoshi> this "cryptography is not appropriate for hiding information" thesis is bizarre
11:42 < fluffypony> "masternodes 'depend on humans for security' in the same way that bitcoin fullnodes 'depend on humans for security' dude.  It's a misapplication of the concept of trustless operation."
11:43 < fluffypony> I feel like I'm watching a bunch of 3rd graders performing open-heart surgery
11:43 < fluffypony> maybe they even recognise some of the surgical instruments from TV, but they have no clue what they are doing
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11:44 < andytoshi> that's a good analogy. i'm not sure if i should keep touching it
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11:51 < bramc> Hey everybody, I have questions/thoughts about this post: https://medium.com/@octskyward/replace-by-fee-43edd9a1dd6d
11:52 < bramc> The author seems to be saying that 0conf is important central functionality, which I think is a little nutty, but can buy the argument that 0conf is something which people are likely to do anyway so you shouldn't try to break it.
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11:54 < bramc> Which leads to the question of why you can't have a totally reasonable middle ground: Why not allow for replace-by-fee, but only for transactions with the same inputs and outputs with the same unlock scripts? What's wrong with tacking on child pays when you don't have scorched earth?
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11:54 < bramc> I'm guessing that 'scorched earth' here refers to the very specific practice of a peer throwing out an unconfirmed transaction when a new one with the same input and a different output but a higher transaction fee shows up.
11:55 < instagibbs> I think a lot of e-ink is wasted on scorched earth, per se. Either you believe the steady state will be RBF, or not. You can't force miners to run policy like that.
11:55 < bramc> But that only matters if the unlock script has changed, which isn't wanted for the fee increasing functionality anyway
11:57 < bramc> instagibbs, Yes there's a large amount of people needing to give up on 0conf already, but there's a practical question of what you can get into the standard codebase today, and my proposed middle ground seems like it should be acceptable to everybody.
11:57 < sipa> bramc: allowing limited replacement was the original design
11:57 < sipa> of bitcoin
11:57 < bramc> sipa, Do peers currently support limited replacement?
11:57 < sipa> no
11:57 < sipa> it was disabled years ago
11:57 < bramc> Uh... why?
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11:58 < sipa> it complicates wallet design
11:58 < instagibbs> what did limited replacement do? Tack on an additional input/output pair?
11:58 < bramc> People should fix the damn wallets anyway :-P
11:58 < bramc> child pays should work fine but doubles transaction size, which is a serous problem.
11:58 < sipa> (cpfp and rbf also requre wallet complication)
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12:00 < bramc> sipa, The current flame war doesn't seem to be about wallet design, it seems to be about 0conf
12:00 < sipa> yes
12:00 < sipa> oh, the limited replacement functionality was only for nonfinal transactions
12:01 < bramc> What does 'nonfinal' mean?
12:01 < sipa> which were a huge dos attack surface
12:01 < sipa> nonfinal == cannot go into the blockchain yet
12:01 < bramc> That sounds backwards
12:01 < sipa> through locktime and other means
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12:02 < bramc> You want limited replacement for transactions which aren't going through because their fees are too low, those are by definition not nonfinal
12:04 < sipa> the original replacement feature was for certain contracts
12:04 < sipa> not for postfacto fee increases
12:04 < bramc> Okay, let's assume that the original replacement feature is long gone and irrelevant
12:04 < sipa> okay
12:05 < sipa> cpfp is enough for fee increases
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12:06 < dgenr8> bramc: in your proposal, could the replacement pay more to output 0, but an overcompensatingly less to output 1, to get to net higher fee?  If so I could rip somebody off.
12:06 < bramc> sipa, What is cpfp an acronym for?
12:06 < instagibbs> child pays
12:07 < bramc> dgenr8, I'm proposing requiring that the output script(s) have to be the same
12:07 < dgenr8> i'm only changing the amounts
12:07 < bramc> dgenr8, Oh sorry, amounts should have to be the same as well
12:08 < dgenr8> then you have to add inputs to raise the fee
12:08 < bramc> oh wait, but then you have to decide whose amount goes down when the transaction fee goes up. That's an interesting question
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12:08 < bramc> Let's say that the rule is that outputs can only go down
12:08 < bramc> bbiab, lunch
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13:28 < bramc> Okay, more thoughts: It should be okay for a new transaction to add both new inputs and new outputs, as long the old outputs are kept to their same level.
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13:30 < bramc> Lowering output has the problem that you can spitefully destroy
13:31 < bramc> Actually, dumb question: Is there a way with cpfp for a child transaction to depend on a parent transaction even without spending its outputs in any way?
13:33 <@gwillen> ... that's actually a really interesting question
13:33 < bramc> That would get around some (most?) of the bloat problems of cpfp by allowing aggregation of a whole bunch of smaller transactions to be paid for by a bigger one with a consolidated fee without all that much blowup
13:33 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o gwillen] by gwillen
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13:35 < bramc> It would be trivial to add an extension to support that
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13:35 < bramc> OP_HAS_BEEN_COMMITTED_VERIFY
13:36 < gmaxwell> bramc: yea, that kind of replacement has been discussed before. to prevent DOS you really want to also demand the fee goes up by some reasonable quanta at each step.
13:36 < bramc> Also interesting to design a lottery protocol so one of a set of parents has to refund, picked at random
13:37 < bramc> gmaxwell, That fee going up thing can be a matter of policy instead of being baked into the spec
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13:38 < kanzure> at the moment there is no way to check for the presence of another transaction
13:39 < kanzure> iirc there are many fair proposals for a hard for kto introduce that (although no particularly written-down proposals), and so far no soft forks? i think?
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13:40 < gmaxwell> bramc: sure well any of this is "just policy", the important point there is keeping the bandwidth usage finite.
13:41 < gmaxwell> kanzure: there is a very straightfoward way to do that-- spend one of its outputs.
13:41 < kanzure> but his criteria was.. er..
13:41 < bramc> kanzure, Shouldn't require a hard fork, an OP_VERIFY should work fine
13:41 < kanzure> "without spending its outputs in any way"
13:42 < bramc> gmaxwell, spending an output is much larger. A new opcode could use a total of 256 + 8 bits
13:42 < gmaxwell> kanzure: most things that people propose there are scale-fails.
13:42 < kanzure> can you elaborate?
13:43 < bramc> OP_HAS_BEEN_COMMITTED_VERIFY: one byte to specify opcode type, 256 bits of specifying what it's reliant on. If that tx isn't in the committed set, it rejects
13:43 < gmaxwell> kanzure: e.g. multiplicatively increasing the IO cost of verifying a transaction, breaking pruning, etc.
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13:43 < gmaxwell> (much of the cost of verifying a transaction is simply looking up each of its inputs)
13:44 < kanzure> bramc: there are many good reasons to do that. another approach is OP_PLEASE_HAVE_THIS_BLOCKHASH_IN_HISTORY
13:44 < gmaxwell> blockhashes are easier to test and scale.
13:44 < kanzure> oh right i did forget about the scaling problems of these proposals
13:44 < bramc> kanzure, blockhash doesn't work for child pays because the parent and child are pending at the same time
13:44 < kanzure> hmm i will have to look more closely at this sometime
13:44 < kanzure> bramc: yes i think you are solving a more specific problem than the one i'm thinking about
13:45 < bramc> kanzure, The one and only problem I'm trying to solve is that child pays bloats up the history by a factor of 2
13:46 < kanzure> gmaxwell: you could make the scalingness matter much less.. i mean, you could artificially limit it to transactions from the last N blocks, where N is totally arbitrary. and if they want to reference something older, they should switch to a lbockhash maybe.
13:46 < kanzure> *blockhash
13:46 < bramc> How about OP_IS_COMMITTED_IN_SAME_BLOCK_VERIFY ?
13:47 < kanzure> when would i want something to be in the same block, but not want to know whether it was in a previous block?
13:47 < kanzure> *when would i want to know something was in the same block
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13:47 < gmaxwell> kanzure: last N things are not reorg safe.
13:47 < bramc> Er, what kanzure said, where I was proposing n=1, but allowing n to be a small number more
13:48 < kanzure> they are if you do something like 100 <= N <= 150
13:48 < kanzure> heh i guess it's less useful if it's already 100 blocks deep anyway
13:48 < bramc> Transactions are not reorg safe :-P
13:48 < kanzure> i mean if the parent is
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13:49 < gmaxwell> bramc: there is a big difference between things that will _spontaniously_ fail on their own, and things that require malicious action to fail.
13:49 < kanzure> yeah i suppose not baking in spontaneous failure would be a nice thing to do
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13:50 < bramc> gmaxwell, Isn't the lookup requirement of my proposed extension exactly the same as handling child pays normally?
13:50 < gmaxwell> bramc: no because child pays works fine if the txn end up split across two blocks.
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13:51 < bramc> gmaxwell, But it's the same number of lookups total, isn't it?
13:51 < bramc> Also I'm thinking that the number of verifies isn't generally huge, it's like 100 or something
13:51 < bramc> Some value where the metadata overhead is insignificant
13:52 < bramc> The 2x factor of child pays is a real issue
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13:53 < gmaxwell> bramc: depends, like if something has implemented a freeform lookup tx it may be enormously more work per unit of blocksize limit.  Also, 'has x' is a query against the complete history, as opposed to 'spends x' is a utxo query.
13:54 < bramc> Ooooh, the issue is whether it's unspent or not
13:54 < bramc> Because the unspent set is smaller
13:55 < gmaxwell> perhaps for the very narrow purpose of a CPFP you can do something like the child is only good in the same block, and it's not reorg safe.. but it's a narrow application. But ::shrugs::
13:55 < gmaxwell> bramc: right, bitcoin core doesn't even keep a database of the other stuff. The full UTXO database is about 600MB.
13:55 < kanzure> cpfp = child pays fee pillowfight?
13:55 < bramc> Child Pays For Parent
13:56 < kanzure> throw in some 4s into that, man
13:56 < bramc> gmaxwell, How about dependency on the transaction being in the unspent set? Also not reorg safe...
13:57 < bramc> Requiring it be in the exact same transaction is likely to start failing if you have a big set and a few things get accepted early
13:59 < bramc> Although it might be unusual for a transaction to get accepted and spent when it was having trouble even going through, and whoever did the payment transaction can just reissue.
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13:59 < bramc> Although, hmm, the remember first policy gets in the way of that.
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14:02 < bramc> Oh I know, you have the opposite OP_VERIFY, which is that something *not* be in the utxo set, and you apply it to the grandparent
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14:03 < bramc> With the edge case of being spent in the same block defined as passing
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14:05 < bramc> gmaxwell, Is OP_NOT_IN_UTXO_SET_VERIFY to your liking?
14:10 < gmaxwell> as in, you can't include this txn if that other one is still spendable? thats probably better.
14:10 < gmaxwell> that sounds like it has reasonable scaling behavior and reorg safty.
14:12 < phantomcircuit> damn left the space heater on overnight
14:13 < phantomcircuit> if it was a miner i'd be tens of cents less poor
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14:30 < petertodd> bramc: re: zeroconf "safe"/"honest" replacement, that's been implemented by aalness: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/pull/3
14:31 < petertodd> bramc: it's pretty easy to use, as inputs can be changed, letting you swap out a smaller input for a larger one, and then increasing the nValue of the change txout with the difference minus the new tx fee
14:31 < petertodd> bramc: I'll submit it as a pull-req for bitcoin core sooner or later
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14:32 < petertodd> bramc: re: "giving up on 0conf" it's remarkably hard to actually find any major users relying on 0conf right now at all; standard pattern seems to be services enable it, get ripped off, and quickly turn it off (e.g. atm operators)
14:33 < petertodd> bramc: https://shapeshift.io/ is another example, that claims to accept 0conf but doesn't appear to actually do so
14:34 < gmaxwell> Whats interesting to me is that people _really_ do not understand the tradeoffs/risk exposure there. E.g. they keep being surprised by things which I think are really not surprising.
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14:35 < justanotheruser> petertodd: there are small scale 0conf attacks in the wild? I thought there was some security through obscurity while replace-by-fee wasn't the norm.
14:36 < petertodd> gmaxwell: doesn't help that people don't make their failurs public... e.g. aalness seems to indicate coinbase doesn't want to talk about it: https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/582207428193714176
14:36 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: If you deployed accepting zero conf without really understanding the risks, you're also probably likely to overreact when you do get ripped off.
14:36 < petertodd> justanotheruser: for sure, lots of them, and people do the rational thing and quickly turn 0conf off after one or two successful attacks
14:37 < petertodd> justanotheruser: e.g. just a few weeks ago I talked to another atm operator who saw once, and switched to requiring a confirmation after the first $100 or something loss
14:38 < pigeons> yes coinbase has come in here and admitted they are getting ripped off from 0 confirms, then blamed it on eligius for not mining the 1st tx because one of the inputs was a known gambling game
14:38 < justanotheruser> is that because their first tx isn't relayed about the network yet, or because some miners do the rational thing?
14:38 < petertodd> pigeons: ah, ok, so that's something like the third time that's happened then
14:38 < justanotheruser> LOL they blamed eligius?
14:38 < petertodd> pigeons: (er, third as in what I personally know about)
14:38 < petertodd> justanotheruser: yes, as did mike hearn on his recent blog post
14:39 < pigeons> yes coinbase asked for help and the answer was, "wait for confirmations" they said that isnt a good customer experience
14:39 < petertodd> pigeons: it's not clear to me that they actually understand what "wait for confirmations" really means re: UX
14:40 < justanotheruser> don't fiat withdrawals tend to take more than 10 minutes? What exactly is the problem for them with waiting for confirmations
14:40 < gmaxwell> sort of ironic for coinbase blaming something for not assc. with a known gambling address, considering that sending to one of those from your coinbase wallet reportadly results in your account being immediately frozen and closed.
14:41 < petertodd> gmaxwell: lol
14:41 < pigeons> justanotheruser: it doesnt answer your question or the question in general, but this particular instance was not a fiat withdrawal but coinbase acting as a payment processor for a 3rd party merchant
14:41 < gmaxwell> (unless that has changed since the initial reports on reddit)
14:41 < petertodd> pigeons: was this merchant actually relying on 0conf? or was it the more usual case where losses are zero? (e.g. shipping a product hours later)
14:42 < justanotheruser> pigeons: that makes sense then. The rational thing is probably to evaluate the fraud rate and give the merchant an ultimatum of 1-conf or 0-conf and high fee
14:42 < pigeons> petertodd: my uunderstanding was the merchant relies on coinbase saying "you have been paid you can release the goods", not that the business case actually required 0 confirms
14:43 < petertodd> pigeons: right, coinbase is taking on a huge risk doing that...
14:43 < pigeons> yes then they told everyone how to do it to them more
14:44 < petertodd> pigeons: they were so angry at replace-by-fee that they canceled a contract with me to implement proof-of-reserves
14:44 < gmaxwell> it's hard. You're trying to sell vendor X on accpeting bitcoin via you.  Explaining zero conf security tradeoffs is not a good sales pitch.
14:45 < petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, and coinbase is big enough to fool themselves into thinking they can pull it off anyway by throwing engineers at the problem; if they start throwing lawyers at the problem...
14:45 < justanotheruser> maybe they should contract you to implement green addresses and payment channels
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14:46 < pigeons> in ruby
14:46 < petertodd> justanotheruser: that was discussed earlier actually; curiously they brought up "conflicts of interest" as one of the reasons to cancel the contract - wonder if they realise I don't have any clients doing that stuff...
14:46 < justanotheruser> pigeons: beating a dead horse :P
14:47 < justanotheruser> petertodd: I think the conflict of interest in their eyes is you increasing their fraud risk and being paid to implement the solution
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14:48 < petertodd> justanotheruser: could be, however there's a lot of people who are more likely to get paid to fix that problem than me
14:48 < bramc> petertodd, The rumor I heard is that coinbase has contractual obligations to accept 0conf
14:49 < petertodd> bramc: I think it's highly likely that rumor is true
14:49 < petertodd> bramc: their api docs say they do that, minus the contractual obligation part
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14:51 < gmaxwell> Whats interesting to me is that some people (e.g. tom, and it sounds like coinbase) are actually confusing RBF assisted double spends (which there should be absolutely zero of now, as AFAIK there are no miners with that policy); and the inevitabilities of asynchronicity in the network (or other unavoidable or long term existing differences in state)
14:52 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i kind of wonder if discuss fish is rbf
14:52 < phantomcircuit> they seem to get the blocks very close to being full
14:52 < phantomcircuit> which i think would be easier with rbf
14:52 < phantomcircuit> (maybe not)
14:53 < gmaxwell> see the conversation in #bitcoin-dev last night with Tom; he linked https://gist.github.com/aalness/a78e3e35b90f52140f0d  and I pointed out that RBF does nothing interesting there,  sender just sends t1 and t2 concurrently and he can more or less precisely pick which nodes have one vs the other, which is much better than RBF in the sense that it actually works whereas RBF currently does not.  For
14:53 < gmaxwell>  some reason this didn't seem to click for him, at least not right away.  Maybe there is some way we're explaining bitcoin to people which is inherently confusing?
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14:54 < dgenr8> jeez.  i have never misunderstood the speed of light.  the fact that I think improvement is possible, does not mean I believe in the impossible.
14:55 < bramc> According to our psychoacoustic studies we need a 100 millisecond round trip time between new zealand and spain. Make it happen.
14:55 < phantomcircuit> heh
14:57 < petertodd> bramc: I'll get all my top men on that, for your top dollar
14:57 < gmaxwell> dgenr8: Didn't say you did there. What I'm pointing out is that you seem to keep being surprised by things like me pointing out that concurrent transmission has the same result. I don't mean to pick on you, you're not alone.  But to me this is the most obvious thing possible, and it makes me wonder if something isn't being expressed poorly if you're failing to have really good intutions on the ho
14:57 < gmaxwell> w things like that work.
14:57 < lechuga_> that gist was wrt btw: https://github.com/aalness/bitcoin/commit/659399cc941db14d25f6a29494bdc01acd2ae458
14:57 < lechuga_> (that patch was just an experiment)
14:57 < dgenr8> yes andy also sent me that, haven't had time to look at it
14:58 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: I doubt they're rbf, as I recently did a test designed to only get mined by rbf miners, which showed somewhere between 0% and 1% adoption
14:58 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: ah, thats the "allow output supersets"? Cool that you went and implemented it.
14:58 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: which funny enough hearn was going around saying the test was proof rbf doesn't work...
14:58 < lechuga_> gmaxwell: nod. wanted to think more about the behavior. ultimately don't like it.
14:58 < petertodd> lechuga_: why?
14:58 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: What don't you like about it?
14:59 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, lold
14:59 < lechuga_> if the intent is to increase confirmation priority seems like child-pays-for-parent would be smoother
14:59 < petertodd> lechuga_: cpfp uses much more blockchain space
14:59 < justanotheruser> petertodd: you sure the 0-1% isn't just latency?
15:00 < petertodd> justanotheruser: that's why the range I gave includes 0% :)
15:00 < justanotheruser> heh
15:00 < petertodd> justanotheruser: it's actually kinda tricky to design tests like that to avoid latency false-positives
15:00 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: CPFP is really terrible to implement in terms of mempool management, and it's less efficient (= more fees). Both probably have a place.
15:01 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: optimal block filling under CPFP is probably NP-complete, and even the hurestic soltions for it seem to produce hairball code... which is why we don't have it in Bitcoin core yet.
15:01 < petertodd> gmaxwell: also, cpfp doesn't currently work in the case where the parent didn't have enough fees to get relayed
15:01 < phantomcircuit> the CPFP stuff is a DoS magnet
15:01 < phantomcircuit> chain a bunch of transaction together and then adjust the fees just a little
15:02 < lechuga_> ic
15:02 < gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, we don't have an INV that can transmit TX as groups.
15:02 < bramc> gmaxwell, A greedy approach of highest fee first should work okay for prioritizing cpfp
15:02 < petertodd> gmaxwell: exactly, same reason why I've never implemented rbf se w/ cpfp
15:03 < petertodd> gmaxwell: yay acronyms!
15:03 < dgenr8> <gmaxwell> Maybe there is some way we're explaining bitcoin to people which is inherently confusing?   <--- spare me the passive aggressive alpha-geek bullshit.  please ;)
15:03 < bramc> Not ideal for adding together grandchildren and great-grandchildren, but good enough.
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15:03 < petertodd> bramc: I've actually done a fair bit of work implementing that, and it's really complex compared to the current stuff
15:03 < lechuga_> also dont like introducing another simple finney attack vector re: gist
15:03 < petertodd> bramc: er, s/stuff/implementation/ to be clear
15:04 < gmaxwell> dgenr8: Thats out of line.
15:04 < petertodd> lechuga_: all IsStandard() changes do that; do you suggest we never change anything?
15:04 < bramc> petertodd, I'm sure, my point is that NP-completeness isn't something to be terribly worried about
15:04 < petertodd> bramc: yeah, well, I'm a fine arts grad :P
15:05 < lechuga_> are those my only choices?
15:05 < petertodd> lechuga_: what do you mean?
15:06 < lechuga_> nm, but point taken
15:06 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: I think PT's comment was that _any_ difference in node policy gives you that, so it's not very interesting to avoid. Actually he wasn't expansive enough,  really any difference in _state_ gives you that. See my example with just concurrently announcing t1 and t2.
15:06 < gmaxwell> Its unfortunate (IMO) but I think unavoidable, so not a reason to shy away from something useful.
15:07 < gmaxwell> bramc: the "pick highest fee first" by itself doesn't work, e.g. you make a huge bloated chain of low fee txn, then add a single high fee cap.
15:07 < lechuga_> then i guess i'd prefer 'honest' rbf behvaior since i think a well-connected observer can have a much better chance at detecting the fraud
15:08 < petertodd> lechuga_: well, like I said, submit it as a pull-req and I'll ACK it
15:08 < bramc> gmaxwell, Caveat of using highest fee/byte including all uncommitted ancestors, yadda yadda yadda, a bunch technical details which are annoying to implement
15:08 < petertodd> bramc: remember that any tech detail that you didn't understand fully can easily lead to a DoS exploit here
15:08 < dgenr8> gmaxwell: sorry.  it is your forum, after all
15:09 < gmaxwell> bramc: yea yea, then you end up with the hairball stuff thats been written already, and has laid fallow because no one wants to review it.
15:09 < lechuga_> petertodd: i did
15:09 < petertodd> lechuga_: no, I mean to bitcoin core
15:10 < lechuga_> meh
15:11 < lechuga_> would rather spend time on a real solution to 0conf
15:11 < petertodd> lechuga_: hey, if you submit it, you can call it "honest replace-by-fee" - I'll just call it "firstseen safe" :P
15:11 < lechuga_> heh
15:11 < petertodd> lechuga_: we do need a fix for fee bumping...
15:11 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: I don't think we had any opposition to that kind of superset replacement so long as the fee goes up every time.
15:13 < gmaxwell> (fee needs to go up some minimum threshold amount to prevent someone from making it into a DOS vector where they make a single very low priority txn and then keep updating it; same as why we don't realy non-final txn)
15:14 < petertodd> gmaxwell: my rbf patch makes fee go up by same amount per byte as min relay fee
15:14 < gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, that seems reasonable to me.
15:15 < gmaxwell> There is some increased 'successful sender mutation risk' there, but I don't think it's an interesting attack vector because it can't be much worse than what you can get from concurrent broadcast already.
15:16 < justanotheruser> Has block withholding + replace-by-fee DoS been discussed?
15:16 < gmaxwell> e.g. I send you a txout. You make a spend of it while unconfirmed. I successfully mutate the payment out from under you, invalidating your spend.
15:16 < petertodd> justanotheruser: ?
15:17 < petertodd> gmaxwell: which is a practice damn near no wallets allow anyway
15:17 < justanotheruser> petertodd: If I am guaranteed to win I can spam the network with 100BTC worth of transactions incrementing each time without risk of miners eating my 100BTC in fees
15:17 < justanotheruser> s/incrementing each time/incrementing the fee each time/
15:17 < petertodd> justanotheruser: right, however that's not any different from what you can do right now anyway
15:18 < justanotheruser> yeah...
15:18 < petertodd> justanotheruser: you can just spam 100BTC worth of standard transactions, and anywya, spamming transactions as a DoS vector is hard
15:18 < gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, it's crazy to do that in any case already; but I'm just trying to think inclusively.
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15:21 < phantomcircuit> <gmaxwell> Its unfortunate (IMO) but I think unavoidable
15:21 < phantomcircuit> there's probably some shenanigans that can be played by measuring hashrate working on a tx
15:21 < phantomcircuit> but that certainly cant be done today
15:25 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: I proposed that awhile back actually: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02868.html
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15:37 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, to be fair it's kind of an obvious solution :P
15:38 < phantomcircuit> (im sure someone else has suggested this before)
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16:10 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: well, at the time it wasn't obvious to me, lol
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16:11 < bramc> What do bitcoin atms do when they don't support zeroconf? Do they require you come back after a few minutes to get your cash?
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16:18 < justanotheruser> bramc: get your identity
16:18 < bramc> justanotheruser, identity meaning what? Something more than the owner of a particular pubkey?
16:19 < justanotheruser> bramc: I think you need to go through a verification process before using one and then you can identify with your fingerprint. Though that is just one ATM a year ago
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16:20 < bramc> justanotheruser, That doesn't sound very bitcoinish
16:20 < justanotheruser> it involves bitcoin doesn't it?
16:20 < justanotheruser> not much they can do when AML/KYC laws exist
16:21 < moa> palm scans, facial photos, ID scans ... atm are full on KYC/AML dragnets in some places
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16:22 < moa> and then limit transactions sizes to less than $1000 lol
16:23 < moa> like columbian cartels are using bitcoin atms to wash their cash ...
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16:37 < petertodd> bramc: that's exactly what they do; some operators are even better and let you deposit funds in advance on a website prior to actually going to the atm in person
16:39 < bramc> petertodd, Better than giving people the cash without authentication and making them pinky swear that they'll hand over bitcoin later.
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17:15 < phantomcircuit> !ops
17:16 < phantomcircuit> sipa, ^
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23:30 < fluffypony> ok so bramc
23:30 < fluffypony> when I was in LA and Las Vegas a few months ago
23:30 < fluffypony> I tried a bunch of ATMs
23:30 < fluffypony> the experience was horrible
23:34 < fluffypony> the ones in LA were Robocoin, but seemed to be customised
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23:35 < fluffypony> the process was arduous and quite confusing, I first had to scan my palm print, take a photo, scan my passport
23:35 < fluffypony> and then wait for "10 minutes" (turned out to be 20) whilst someone manually reviewed my "application"
23:36 < fluffypony> once that was confirmed the actual process was easier - go back to ATM, say you want to withdraw cash, send BTC,
23:36 < fluffypony> walk away, wait for 1 confirmation, go back, login, print slip, take slip to till, get cash
23:37 < fluffypony> the Robocoin ones in Vegas were a joke - go through a similar process, send funds, wait for SIX confirmations! I gave up
23:40 < gmaxwell> my SO had a similar expirence at a non-bitcoin ATM recently.  Swiped card, made withdraw.  "please wait, dispensing money"
23:40 < gmaxwell> for 20 minutes.
23:40 < gmaxwell> We couldn't leave... because, you know, "dispensing money".
23:40 < gmaxwell> Eventually it timed out.
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23:46 < fluffypony> lol
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23:47 < fluffypony> I feel like the problem is easily surmountable, it just requires Bitcoin ATMs designed by humans and not robots
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23:57 < midnightmagic> the ATMs that steal your card while you do it are the worst when they "malfunction".
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 31 00:00:38 2015