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06:13 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: re your rust bindings and their coverage. Have you tried mutation testing them?
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06:15 < kanzure> i was about to recommend ctypes but rust-ctypes does not look encouraging
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07:34 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: only in a couple ad-hoc ways (which were successful -- the tests failed)
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07:36 < gmaxwell> thats good at least.
07:36 < andytoshi> rust has a stupidly powerful macro system, i think it's possible to manipulate the entire parse tree, i should look into that..
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07:37 < gmaxwell> mutation testing in C/C++ is a pain.
07:37 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: it also has a system for effectively adding preprocessing passes to the compiler. normally used for checks but I think it can mutate the ast.
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07:42 < kanzure> one option is to convert your entire program to just a giant state machine with transitions expressed as uh.. well i don't know. anyway, then mutating that is easier.
07:43 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: ohh right, i forgot about that (and i've used it before :P). if you can't mutate through that, you can through the adding of attributes, so you'd have to tag each function/datatype/whatever with #[mutation_test]. that's cool, you can even add options #[mutation_test(...)]. i'll go make some noise about this in #rust on irc.mozilla.org
07:43 < gmaxwell> An AST is fine for that purpose, but in C the macros are not hygenic so you cannot get an AST without first preprocessing which turned the code to hash; so it's much harder to tell if a mutation that passed the tests was okay or not.
07:44 < gmaxwell> (and in C++ the parsing isn't even decidable. :P )
07:44 < andytoshi> one mildly annoying thing is that the parts of the compile where you can screw with the AST come before typechecking or borrowchecking, so you can't use any type information
07:45 < andytoshi> not that i blame them! i can't imagine writing a compiler that'd let you mutate such deep state
07:45 < kanzure> wouldn't it be more efficient to have a common non-ast-related format for doig mutations
07:45 < andytoshi> kanzure: possibly, but we already have mechanisms to mutate the AST in rust
07:46 < kanzure> a regular expression can be transformed into a deterministic finite automaton, which is just a state machine
07:46 < kanzure> (and various chunks of software can be converted or represented as regular expressions)
07:47 < kanzure> actually i don't have a way to clearly state this. sorry.
07:47 < gmaxwell> kanzure: maybe, the important thing is that you can make changes of varrious clases (e.g. changing loop bounds) without breaking the syntax... but also being able to get the changes back to the source code because you need to manually prune false positives.
07:47 < kanzure> there should be no reason to have to write custom mutation testing for every single ast implementation
07:47 < kanzure> oh pruning... hmm.
07:47 < gmaxwell> (though ideally the system would also have a SAT tool and so it could remove most false positives or avoid trying things that are provable identical)
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07:59 < fluffypony> some "VP of Business Development" from Chainalysis is talking at the Bitcoin Africa conference on Thur
07:59 < fluffypony> "Jonathan Levin — Bitcoin: basics and beyond"
08:00  * fluffypony is definitely going to be trolling the questions section at the end
08:01 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, im tempted to start a "decentralized distributed blockchain analysis" company
08:01 < fluffypony> hah
08:01 < phantomcircuit> which ships an "appliance optimized for queries to the blockchain"
08:01 < phantomcircuit> ie a 1U x86 server running bitcoind
08:02 < phantomcircuit> starting in the low 500 thousands
08:02 < fluffypony> this is also courtesy of the conference:
08:02 < fluffypony> https://twitter.com/fluffyponyza/status/587985510364270592
08:02 < fluffypony> .title
08:02 < yoleaux> Ricky Riccardo auf Twitter: "Door tix @ Bitcoin Africa conference: "only cash will be accepted". Bitcoin...you're doing it wrong! #BitcoinAfrica15 http://t.co/G66vzo8Etz"
08:03 < fluffypony> phantomcircuit: have you ever heard of CACHEbox? it's an "appliance" that is *literally* just a squid caching proxy + some extra bits (eg. media caching) in a box, for several thousand USD
08:03 < fluffypony> I think we should be in the "appliance" business
08:04 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, so far the only bitcoin conference im aware of that accepted bitcoin was one intersango ran in london
08:04 < phantomcircuit> and the tickets were entirely anonymous
08:05 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, yeah
08:05 < fluffypony> these guys accepted BTC for tickets (via PayFast, local payment gateway that added BTC support a couple of months ago), but then suddenly at the door you can't use BTC, retarded.
08:05 < phantomcircuit> there's a bunch of stuff like that
08:05 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, ehhhh that's maybe not stupid
08:06 < phantomcircuit> currently btc is slower than cash if you're in person
08:06 < phantomcircuit> long lines == bad
08:06 < fluffypony> sure, but they can accept it as 0-conf, they can have the guy thrown out if it's a double-spend :-P
08:07 < sipa> phantomcircuit: pretty sure the prague conference in 2011 also accepted btc
08:07 < fluffypony> also this is South Africa, none of the locals are going to carry around $200 cash
08:07 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, easier to tell them to step aside and go online to pay
08:07 < fluffypony> phantomcircuit: at the door it's cash only, no online sales
08:07 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, not at all? not even on your own phone?
08:08 < phantomcircuit> weird
08:08 < phantomcircuit> sipa, ah yeah
08:08 < fluffypony> not even on your phone, they're stopping online ticket sales tomorrow
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08:11 < phantomcircuit> sipa, ah yeah i remember that amir spoke there and intersango sponsored in some way
08:11 < phantomcircuit> (cant remember what way)
08:11 < sipa> amir was there, indeed
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11:20 < Relos> is it time for a restart? A bitcoin fork to incorporate all the lessons that have been learned so far?
11:21 < Relos> a proper fork though not just another "shitcoin"
11:21 < sipa> Relos: feel free to create one, and then convince everyone to switch :)
11:21 < Relos> I'm thinking more of a community level decision
11:22 < Relos> call it bitcoin 2.0001
11:22 < sipa> yes
11:22 < kanzure> it's restarted every block
11:22 < sipa> that is how you convince everyone to switch, by making a community decision
11:22 < sipa> which needs consensus from all participants
11:23 < Relos> well, I started the process, what's your opinion?
11:23 < fluffypony> let's call it...Nonthereum!
11:23 < Relos> I just*** started the process, whats your opinion*
11:23 < kanzure> unfortunately my opinion cannot be stated in polite company
11:24 < adlai> here's a politely stated opinion: why not wait a bit and incorporate a few more years' worth of lessons?
11:24 < Relos> politeness is stuffy
11:24 < adlai> or have we learned all that there is to learn about decentralized consensus in six years
11:24 < Relos> at some point we have to realise that bitcoin has some real failings as far as the masses are concerned
11:24 < Relos> and maybe a fresh start is better?
11:24 < Relos> I mean I don't know just putting it out there
11:25 < sipa> Relos: my opinion will depend on how useful, tested, and accepted your implementation is
11:25 < fluffypony> let's just have a yearly restart
11:25 < kanzure> Relos: you are inflammatory and boring... this is so far from -wizards relevance that it's gross.
11:25 < adlai> unless you have more specific suggestions/implementations, you're probably not going to get much other than polite jesting and impolite getlosting
11:26 < Taek> Relos: I do believe that Ethereum is trying very hard to do what you want. Lots of new features, lots of lessons learned, lots of community behind it
11:26 < Zouppen> isn't that done every time a (hard) fork is performed? learning something from previous lessons and improving the system. it doesn't need a "restart" in the way that Relos is saying.
11:26 < Relos> in my view, the main problem that bitcoin has is that it is impossible to safely secure "hot wallets" which are necessary as far as businesses are concerned
11:26 < Relos> thats how this downturn started and then bitstamp precipitated
11:27 < Zouppen> Relos: have you heard about multisig?
11:27 < jeremyrubin> Relos: Hot wallets are securable? That seems more of a user problem than a core protocol issue.
11:27 < Relos> you can't run a hot wallet on multisig
11:28 < sipa> what protocol changes do you suggest that would fix this?
11:28 < kanzure> this is not -wizards relevant
11:28 < Relos> you can't square instant withdrawals with multisig
11:28 < shesek> Relos, you most definitely can
11:29 < kanzure> that's trivially false: apply both signatures on the same server. done. horriby insecure but whatever.
11:29 < shesek> there's nothing stopping you from having multiple internet-connected machine all sign their part of the multi-signature transaction in real time
11:29 < kanzure> could you take this to #bitcoin please? and not here
11:29 < sipa> so, what do you suggest?
11:29 < shesek> .... or just that ^, yes
11:29 < fluffypony> yeah, this is more for #bitcoin
11:29 < Relos> jesus its so stuffy here
11:29 < kanzure> yes
11:29 < sipa> are you here to discuss research ideas, or to complain that "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!"
11:29 < Relos> no wonder nothing gets done
11:30 < Relos> all stuck on protocol and rules and sensless debates about things no one cares
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11:30 < sipa> Relos: no, please
11:30 < kanzure> more inflammatory nonsense... yawn.
11:30 < Relos> you the one inflaming kanzure
11:30 < sipa> tell us what could improve things
11:30 < sipa> in your opinion
11:30 < Relos> why don't you just stay silent if you don't wish to engage
11:30 < zooko> That's what I'm doing!
11:30 < kanzure> silence is the enemy of good people
11:31 < Relos> lmao, this place was silent when I came in so, just stop reading
11:31 < sipa> no
11:31 < sipa> you start talking
11:31 < Relos> now, sipa, before any problem can be solved one needs to first recongise what it is
11:31 < Relos> then whether something can be done about it or not
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11:31 < sipa> ok, what is the problem?
11:31 < kanzure> sipa: are you sure you meant start
11:31 < Relos> hot wallets getting hacked
11:31 < sipa> yes
11:32 < sipa> also some people are poor
11:32 < Relos> specifically exchanges
11:32 < sipa> there are wars
11:32 < sipa> very bad
11:32 < adlai> Relos: how do you propose to remove from cryptocurrency the need to secure your encryption keys?
11:32 < Relos> well, if that problem is not solvable
11:32 < Relos> you might as well stop working on anything else bitcoin related
11:32 < fluffypony> none of the problems you're mentioning "can't" be solved with Bitcoin
11:32 < Relos> because no one will use it if exchanges keep going bankrupt
11:33 < sipa> Relos: i think that problem can e solved
11:33 < adlai> this is roughly equivalent to complaining that cash is a bad system, because muscular and/or well-armed assailants can remove it from your person against your permission
11:33 < sipa> but not by changes in the core protocol
11:33 < fluffypony> standards akin to PCI-DSS can be created and enforced, and nobody will deal with exchanges that don't meet those standards
11:33 < Relos> the core protocol has a script language doesnt it?
11:33 < sipa> a solution likely starts with having auditable exchanges
11:33 < sipa> it does
11:33 < Relos> why is that so little developed?
11:34 < kanzure> have you actually read script-related commits
11:34 < Relos> I mean bitcoin is programmable money
11:34 < sipa> yes it is, to an extent
11:34 < Relos> why do exchanges not have the choice of, say, chargebacking a hot wallet?
11:34 < Relos> then the masses can choose
11:34 < kanzure> ugh. chargebacks are just sending a transaction back to the original sender. that's trivial.
11:35 < Relos> and needed
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11:35 < Relos> it's the only solution I can see to hot wallet hacks of exchanges
11:35 < kanzure> sipa: the more you leave the worse this place gets
11:35 < Relos> people still have the choice, they dont have to use the exchange etc
11:37 < belcher> what if the exchange does a chargeback when it wasnt a real theft?
11:37 < Relos> sue them
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11:37 < belcher> how would this new bitcoin be any different from paypal ?
11:37 < adlai> Relos: please don't take this the wrong way, but have you read the bitcoin whitepaper, and understood the problems it's designed to address?
11:38 < Relos> why shouldn't individuals be able to choose whether to make their own address chargebackable or not?
11:38 < Taek> Relos: one of the primary advantages of Bitcoin is that transactions are not reversible. Institutions like exchanges need to adjust when working with the newer technology
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11:38 < Relos> bitstamp can freeze your account anyway
11:38 < Relos> as it has done to many
11:38 < adlai> bitstamp is not bitcoin.
11:38 < ajweiss> i don't think a hard fork is the solution.  what bitcoin really needs is a soft spooon.
11:39 < adlai> bitstamp is a few meat-people with a website and a corporate-person, and some bank accounts, and some bitcoin addresses. but bitcoin-the-system doesn't care about bitstamp
11:39 < Relos> bitcoin is not a dictatorship, why shouldn't individuals be able to chose whether to make their own address chargebackable?
11:39 < Relos> I was talking about the script language
11:39 < adlai> ajweiss: or a pointed stick
11:39 < Taek> Relos: you can make you address chargebackable, just do a multisig where the exchange has enough signatures to perform a chargeback on your money
11:39 < Relos> from my understanding, the script language works on an address level not on the level of the bitcoin as a whole
11:39 < adlai> the script language works at the transaction level, since "addresses" don't really exist
11:39 < ajweiss> truth be told, i think most of the innovation needs to take place above the core protocol anyway
11:39 < Relos> Taek you cant hotwallet a multisig if you could bitstamp wouldnt be dying right now
11:40 < Relos> multisig* a hotwallet***
11:40 < Taek> Relos: ??? why not
11:40 < Relos> because if you could it would be used
11:41 < Relos> you need the permission of someone else to withdraw, that means the withdrawal is not instant and the market won't stand for that
11:41 < ajweiss> relos: bitstamp uses multisig for their hotwallet
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11:41 < ajweiss> they actually outsourced to bitgo
11:41 < Relos> ask, erm, what was that super secure exchange that would delay withdrawals, they never attracted clients
11:41 < Taek> Coinbase?
11:42 < Relos> nooo, some small exchange
11:42 < ajweiss> what is the difference between a delayed withdrawal and an instant withdrawal that can be charged back for a while?
11:42 < stonecoldpat> Relos: You need the permission of your bank today to withdraw any cash using your cards...
11:42 < Taek> Coinbase delayed withdrawals for 4 days for a long time, and they still got plenty of users.
11:42 < Relos> the difference is that the market wouldnt mind about the former
11:43 < ajweiss> they're the same
11:43 < Relos> the latter* lol
11:43 < Relos> technically, yes, but in practice they aren't
11:43 < ajweiss> you can't spend unsettled funds
11:43 < ajweiss> you either have x or you don't
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11:45 < Relos> true, but I just think the scripting language is underdeveloped
11:45 < adlai> the scripting language doesn't let you unwind past transactions
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11:45 < Relos> it could do
11:45 < adlai> bitcoin could also cook me breakfast every morning, if we extended the scripting language for OP_MAKEADLAICOFFEE
11:46 < adlai> but seriously, the concerns you're raising are ones better addressed on the level of people using bitcoin, rather than bitcoin itself
11:46 < adlai> i'm not denying the problems exist, but the solutions you suggest are essentially a return to the problems that bitcoin tries to solve in the first place
11:47 < Relos> on a convenience level, what problem does bitcoin solve exactly for the consumer?
11:47 < adlai> for the _consumer_? it creates additional problems by incentivis
11:47 < adlai> ...incentivizing the delay of consumption
11:47 < kanzure> this is really something that would be better discussed in #bitcoin
11:47 < adlai> that too.
11:47 < Relos> that's not convenience
11:48 < Relos> it's good, yes
11:48 < kanzure> Relos: /join #bitcoin
11:48 < jeremyrubin> Relos: A meaningful contribution could be to think about fork migrations and what can be done to elegantly allow Bitcoin to modify the protocol without causing disaster. Try reading about what Tezos does.
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11:48 < Relos> but... the hot wallet problem was shown back in 2011
11:48 < Relos> when bitcoin went from 30 to 2
11:48 < Relos> and here we are, same problem
11:49 < adlai> jeremyrubin: do you have a copy of http://tezos.com/position_paper.pdf i could borrow? that one 404s
11:49  * fluffypony has a new addition to his ignore list
11:49 < ajweiss> i don't think the problem is the core protocol.  the problem is that there isn't a protocol on top that encourages best use of what already exists...
11:49 < Relos> mt gox went bankrupt, stamp is going bankrupt, who is next now?
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11:50 < jeremyrubin> adlai: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujmk1ejhvn1u8kx/tezos.pdf?dl=0
11:50 < Relos> obviously we can raise our hands and say nothing to do with us the blame lays somewhere else, but there is a problem here which MUST be solved
11:50  * adlai wonders why this channel isn't moderated with the same iron fist as #bitcoin
11:50 < Relos> and in my opinion takes priority above all else
11:50 < adlai> jeremyrubin: thanks!
11:50 < Relos> for if this isn't solved, there is no bitcoin. Simple as that
11:50 < ajweiss> imagine if there was a way to write up all these complicated payment channel ideas and that wallets executed them on your behalf using a common protocol
11:51 < ajweiss> that protocol could change and bend without risks to consensus
11:51 < Relos> I wouldn't care if my wealth was open to the best hackers on earth who eventually will take it
11:51 < Relos> on an individual level I can keep it offline, eliminate that risk
11:52 < Relos> but on a business level, when I must have a hot wallet, as it currently stands being hacked is only a matter of time
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12:18 < adlai> jeremyrubin: did anything ever come of this project?
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12:21 < jeremyrubin> adlai: I think it's still under development
12:22  * adlai has found only the low-SNR https://twitter.com/hashtag/tezos
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14:28 < andytoshi> hehe, in less than 100LOC i have a rust extension that'll flip all the if statements in functions marked #[mutation_test], except for those that are inside loops of any sort (since idk if there are any mutations i can do inside loops that won't cause them to run forever). it'll be another 50 i expect to have it dupe the unit tests to use the mutated versions. i love this language :)
14:29 < fluffypony> woah bro, slow down, 100 LoC is like 10 day's actual work
14:29  * fluffypony pulls out his copy of the Mythical Man Month and bonks andytoshi on the head with it
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14:34 < kanzure> no violence
14:35 < fluffypony> kanzure: with the recent SNR here we're going to have to have -wizards-wizards
14:35 < fluffypony> or just move the conversation into...*the blockchain*
14:37 < andytoshi> some days are just like this :/ if it gets to be an ongoing thing i'm sure we'll figure something out
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14:37 < adlai> kicking idiots?
14:37 < andytoshi> more secrecy is not the solution; i (and some others) often mention this place on bitcointalk with the goal of finding more talent
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14:38 < andytoshi> i also don't want to be kicking people because that discourages discussion
14:38 < kanzure> adlai: i don't want to kick "idiots"
14:38 < adlai> how about "kicking people who refuse to accept the fact that there may be a more appropriate channel for their education"
14:38 < andytoshi> it'd be more like requiring voice to talk
14:38 < fluffypony> andytoshi, I agree, but I think that moderating based on "this is more suited to #b-dev / #b" is suitable
14:38 < adlai> that works too, remarkably well even.
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14:40 < kanzure> yeah, i think that is worth trying long before "tests" or whatever
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14:40 < andytoshi> kanzure: well what is the criteria for getting voice?
14:40 < kanzure> right, before that too
14:40 < Taek> registered nick, lose voice for a day or 2 if you're OT
14:40 < fluffypony> but then why bother with voice
14:41 < fluffypony> just kick if the polite suggestion of another channel is ignored
14:41 < andytoshi> ehh that'd be selectively applied, there have been conversations here among even regulars about their childhoods etc
14:41 < fluffypony> escalate to kban if they come back and start babbling again
14:41 < andytoshi> i'm also uncertain that we (meaning the 20 or so people who are opped here) can reliably distinguish "babble" without creating a feeling of censorship
14:42 < kanzure> andytoshi: i think that's more of a social credibility issue. we let you ramble on about shrooms because we know that you will talk about non-shroom things successfully.
14:42 < fluffypony> andytoshi: it's not about the content so much as the attitude of the person - some non-wizards content is fine if it's labeled [OT] and generally nobody complains, but when someone wants to argue about a subject best suited to #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev (and then they ignore the polite suggestions they take it there) then moderation is suitable
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14:42 < andytoshi> kanzure: yeah, and i don't want to institutionalize that in any way because then we're discriminating agoinst new people
14:42 < kanzure> JoiIto: welcome back
14:43 < kanzure> andytoshi: we should absolutely discriminate against new people, especially if they seem to be incapable of following the /topic
14:43 < fluffypony> ^^
14:43 < kanzure> we should also discriminate against old people incapable of following the /topic
14:43 < kanzure> and the timeless.... especially them.
14:43 < fluffypony> the timekoin wat wat?
14:43 < andytoshi> hehe
14:44 < andytoshi> kanzure: i don't agree with that, for the most part new people are friendly and even those who ask basic questions mostly "get it" and it's helpful to on-ramp them
14:44 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] maybe a bot where new people get a limited number of lines to talk
14:44 < andytoshi> it's only the people who start fights, won't listen, repeat things after being referred to #b, etc
14:45 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] ^ i.e. high volume garbage, not just garbarge
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14:46 < fluffypony> yeah, so then a 3-strike rule for ignoring referrals to other channels?
14:47 < ajweiss> honestly i think you guys are too nice
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14:47 < Taek> 3-strikes and then you lose voice? In general I'm against kicking
14:47 < andytoshi> ajweiss: there is an unspoken policy (or maybe it is spoken ... i think it's from amiller_) that it should be basically impossible to get kicked here because we want it to be a "free exchange of ideas"
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14:48 < fluffypony> Taek: the issue with the voice model is what prompts the person to be voiced in the first place?
14:48 < fluffypony> unless you voice everyone and then devoicing is "punishment"
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14:48 < ajweiss> i get that, and that's a great ideal.  but free exchange of ideas != platform to be annoyingly offtopic
14:48 < andytoshi> i don't want a situation where we are policing ideas, even stupid ones or ones that have been done to death
14:49  * fluffypony clearly has a much shorter annoyance-fuse than andytoshi 
14:49 < ajweiss> although i suppose the topic lines are somewhat murky and referrals to other channels can be seen as snubs
14:49 < andytoshi> idk, maybe we should be more agressive abotu OT posts. *shrug* but it really doesn't seem like a problem 99% of the time, it is just every few weeks there is a flood of crap like this all at once
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14:50 < Zouppen> +v flood is a bit annoying, too. of course you can ignore them in irssi and other clients, but it's not that way by default. kicking is not that bad option, i think. banning is more like restricting the freedom.
14:53 < ajweiss> maybe a red herring channel #bitcoin-senior-management
14:53 < Zouppen> :)
14:53 < fluffypony> lol
14:54 < gwillen> ajweiss: ha.
14:55 < adlai> #bitcoin-board-meetings
14:55 < gwillen> andytoshi: so, I think it's important to have channels where people who know things can talk to other people who know things more or less unmolested
14:55 < gwillen> (not necessarily 'channels' in the IRC sense, although I think those are useful for this purpose)
14:56 < gwillen> it's hard to accomplish that while simultaneously avoiding cliqueishness, of course
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15:00 < kanzure> how about this: instead of sipa or whoever leaving when they are sad about the world, you can have a bot that kickbans everyone except the spammer
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15:01 < kanzure> does that satisfy all of your crazy requirements
15:01 < adlai> the knights of bitcoin require a wizardry.
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15:03 < andytoshi> kanzure: despite actual wizards sometimes ragequitting for a day or two, i think the benefit of having a totally free conversation outweighs the problems. the shitposting has increased in the last six months but i still don't think it's to a point where we need to take some dramatic action
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15:11 < kanzure> andytoshi: muting spammers and people incapable of joining other channels is not dramatic action.
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15:15 < ajweiss> apparently there is a quaker irc channel, i wonder what they do...
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16:22 < adlai> quake!
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16:42 < DrWat> quake?
16:45 < maaku> ajweiss: talk about quakerism and/or toasted oats?
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19:17 < moa> anybody aware of work analysing fee-paying transactions?
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19:20 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: COOL re extension, usually what you want to do with tests is to flip one at a time, then two at a time. Sometimes multiple flips cancel each other out. Any way you could take a counter parameter from the command line? e.g. mutation_class_a=NNN where NNN is an index mod Nmutable_points_marked_with_class_a for which one to mutate?
19:20 < gmaxwell> that it was so easy to do even that ... making me want to use rust for more things.
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19:31 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: pretty sure yes, tho idk how much expressivity i can use with command-line args ... i wasted a lot of time today reading through the libsyntax code and being ignored on IRC trying to add new unit tests (specifically, how to i get to the containing module of the function i just mutated so that i can search it for unit tests?? turns out you can't, so i had to restructure my code a little bit
19:31 < andytoshi> so it looks for a marker on the module itself)
19:32 < petertodd> are there debian/ubuntu packages for rust yet?
19:33 < andytoshi> petertodd: i don't think so
19:34 < andytoshi> aside from the binaries you can download at rust-lang.org
19:34 < petertodd> andytoshi: that's kinda my litmus test for "is this stable enough to bother?" :P
19:34 < petertodd> I read the debian discussion about the bootstrapping issue
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19:35 < andytoshi> link?
19:36 < petertodd> https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/RustPackaging/Bootstrap
19:36 < petertodd> (btw, by package, I mean third-party packages too, so long as they're reasonably trustworthy/well-maintained)
19:36 < gmaxwell> it's mostly a boostrapping issue that it's not packaged I think.
19:37 < petertodd> yeah, I'm getting that impression too
19:37 < rusty> Yes, but bootstrapping is kinda important.
19:37 < gmaxwell> I don't think anyone has rebuilt it from the original ocaml stuff from scratch.  I found the rust team to be kind of insensitive to some of these concerns (and you may note that their package management thing enshrines a bunch of known-security-horrible practices from the ruby world)
19:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: I saw someone's description of that process - literally dozens of intermediate steps
19:38 < gmaxwell> (There is at least a sense of 'this should probably be better' but not really appriciating how bad it actually is.)
19:38 < andytoshi> that is my impression also
19:38 < andytoshi> tho part of it is that they are extremely busy and it's easy to ignore stuff that isn't so user-visible; this may improve as things stabilize
19:39 < gmaxwell> petertodd: no one has mapped the shortest path I think, would be pretty computationally expensive to do so.
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19:39 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: I talked to someone who worked directly on the package manager thing .. so it does some cool things like identifying things by hash, but there is no facility for digital signatures; so you end up with your security reducing to "trust random stuff on github/etc., but at least snapshot the hashes once you've trusted it the first time"
19:40 < andytoshi> :/ that is very unfortunate
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19:40 < petertodd> well, on the birght side once a sig system is slapped on that won't be so bad
19:41 < gmaxwell> looked like it would be easy to fix in the future.
19:41 < petertodd> halfway there
19:41 < petertodd> reminds me: turns out ripple labs doesn't sign any of their code
19:41 < gmaxwell> the URL support seemed pretty generic so it seemed to me that you could define a URL that encoded a pubkey(hash), and also required the things it fetched from it to be signed.
19:42 < gmaxwell> though I worry that since the ecosystem is starting without it, it'll be hard to fix it (or at least they'll be something deep in your dependency path which isn't authenticated at all)
19:42 < petertodd> gmaxwell: it's also telling peopl enew to the space that doing that is acceptable
19:43 < gmaxwell> at the same time, just dropping it on people might make it get used in a way that has only pretextual security.
19:44 < gmaxwell> e.g. github signing things for you. :P
19:44 < petertodd> nothing wrong with that so long as it's all the same key :P
19:45 < gmaxwell> there is also some politics around it that made them really scope creep resistant. (mozilla paid an outside developer to work on it and there were some delivery delays/challenges)
19:45 < petertodd> gmaxwell: might have helped had they included a minimal but explicit "null sig" mechanism that had no security, but forced the hooks to be there
19:45 < gmaxwell> petertodd: well I mean you putting your package signing key online on github.. would not be more secure than access to github and/or https.
19:46 < petertodd> gmaxwell: exactly! if you do that and github is honest and it's all with the same key, that's not *that* bad
19:48 < gmaxwell> Oh I see, use a github key. yea, makes sense, at least you know where you stand.
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20:00 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: whers your mutation testing extension for rust?
20:00 < jeremyrubin> petertodd: reminds me, I downloaded a fresh copy of tor today and the signatures were broken.
20:02 < gmaxwell> I started downloading signatures on everything a while back and constantly find problems. E.g. for a long time openssh was signed with a key that couldn't easily be found anywhere.[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D (uh, or openssl?
20:02 < gmaxwell> 
20:02 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: on my system, and broken right now..
20:02 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: I was telling someone who works on servo about it (keegan) and he was quite interested.
20:03 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: cool!
20:03 < andytoshi> unfortunately i was an idiot and do not have the working code from earlier today
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20:04 < andytoshi> in an hour or two it should be working again, i'm mired in implementation details of the syntax parsing phase
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20:08 < andytoshi> ..actually it would be very easy to get the code back to the way it was; i can do this if your friend is interested ... but it doesn't create new unit tests, just the mutated functions, and i need to keep working on the (currently broken) restructured version to add that ability
20:08 < gmaxwell> [meta] re the ontopicness stuff; sometimes things are more ontopic than it seems. E.g. the above stuff about the rust mutation testing has at least personal interest to several people here because its about the state of the art in software testing (and spawns out of andytoshi's wrapper for libsecp256k1).
20:08 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: well don't rush yourself; he'll still be interested later.
20:09 < gmaxwell> [meta] sometimes the traffic here of not really ontopic stuff (or really irritatingly ignorant stuff) gets ... irritating. I have no real solution. Some people have tried to make closed access versions of the channel (on several occasions, in fact); but I see a lot of value from public discussion so I don't join them.
20:10 < dgenr8> jeremyrubin: did you download the bad-sig tor over tor?  I had to try 4 times recently to get a non-corrupted update of tbb over tor.
20:11 < gmaxwell> [meta] if people wanted I wouldn't be adverse to having a _short_ quiz to get voice or something like that; though I think it would really cut down the availablity of the channel. Really I'd probably prefer to spend administrative effort in making a digest or an index or something, rather than trying to moderate extensively.
20:16 < jeremyrubin> dgenr8: You're right I think.
20:17 < gmaxwell> we've had a few folks in here report bad certificates (seemingly) due to malicious tor exits. Ouch if they're hitting tbb transfers.
20:23 < jeremyrubin> Hmm I'm a little concerned my system may be compromised now because I did open the maybe-compromised tor bundle.
20:26 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: if its any consoluation it's probably good to treat your system as compromised every once in a while and reset yourself.
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20:28 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: was thinking, "well I'll just check the binary to see if it matches a good one", but realized a good exploit would, once opened, put the correct binary in place. Your point is well taken...
20:29 < jeremyrubin> And a general reminder that sleep deprivation, and thereby inattentiveness, is probably the biggest security threat of all
20:29 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: https://github.com/apoelstra/halfsleep still does not create unit tests, but it works (and im past the problem that was stumping me :)) you can run `cargo test` on the project in the examples directory and you will see that the unit tests which use the mutated function fail
20:29 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i would prefer muting or kicking people who are incapable of /joining #bitcoin and continuing discussion there. a quiz is unnecessary.
20:30 < kanzure> nobody was suggesting that rust mutation stuff is off-topic......... what is clearly offtopic is stuff like "bitcoin needs to be reset; tell me again what source code is?"
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20:33 < jeremyrubin> kanzure: I think the best policy is probably to send them a private message. I sent Relos a pm and discussed for few back and forths.
20:38 < andytoshi> btw some relevant context to this discussion is that kanzure has spent several years locating and wooing domain experts from many domains and bringing them to ##hplusroadmap, where he works to make sure the channel does not become a cesspool and they all leave
20:38 < andytoshi> tho i think the situation on -wizards is a bit different
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20:50 < kanzure> yes my method in there is to scream at everyone until they fall over dead; i'm quite certain that method does not apply here.
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21:06 < lovecruft> jeremyrubin: hey, if you can give me any specifics on the exit node your were using, or you're willing to give me a copy of either the bad signature or the binary, i'm willing to personally assess the exit node's behaviour and BadExit it if necessary, and i and other would be happy to analyse the binary/sig
21:07 < jeremyrubin> lovecruft: I can't do that. Any record I have of such things was stored on my computer, therefore is potentially compromised as well.
21:08 < lovecruft> sure, but post-compromise analysis is far better than zero analysis
21:09 < lovecruft> anyway, i build and help develop tor browser, and i'd be horrified if any of our users were getting owned
21:11 < jeremyrubin> lovecruft: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6s3xjgvavf764p/TorBrowser-4.0.8-osx32_en-US.dmg?dl=0
21:12 < lovecruft> thanks!
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21:13 < jeremyrubin> gpg: Signature made Thu Apr  9 13:42:04 2015 EDT using RSA key ID D40814E0
21:13 < jeremyrubin> gpg: BAD signature from "Tor Browser Developers (signing key) <torbrowser@torproject.org>"
21:13 < jeremyrubin> lovecraft: gpg error was along lines of the above
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21:15 < jeremyrubin> lovecruft: ^^^ I then googled for the error, when I read an article about tor devs messing up key signing and absent mindedly no big deal'ed it.
21:16 < jeremyrubin> I'm still not certain there was a real compromise, and it seems unlikely, but unless I can convince myself otherwise I'm in for a wipe.
21:18 < isis> hmm… i'm not sure about gnupg error, it sounds as if perhaps something happened to the download (could be a bad exit, or just a bad/incomplete download)
21:19 < isis> your binary matches the one on the build machines…
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21:20 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: have a copy of the signature?
21:20 < jeremyrubin> isis: incomplete download actually seems most likely
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21:23 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: https://www.dropbox.com/s/brjujsrwlmqn9aw/TorBrowser-4.0.8-osx32_en-US.dmg.asc?dl=0
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21:30 < phantomcircuit> jeremyrubin, can you not link to the potentially compromised .dmg ?
21:30 < jeremyrubin> phantomcircuit: I did https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6s3xjgvavf764p/TorBrowser-4.0.8-osx32_en-US.dmg?dl=0
21:31 < phantomcircuit> NOT
21:31 < isis> jeremyrubin: everything looks ok on that front. the only problems left that i can think of would be your gpgtools install, or perhaps some other gnupg problem, e.g. an outdated copy of the key.
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21:37 < jeremyrubin> isis: Yeah I'm not overly concerned at this point. My downloading of the new version was over https, signatures checked out later (pointing to the partial dl being the issue), and binaries match. Although gmaxwell has a point with a periodic wipe never hurting. Thanks for looking into this :)
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21:37 < jeremyrubin> isis: although in theory you could be the attacker trying to trick me over IRC ;)
21:38 < jeremyrubin> isis: I locally verified all of the above as well so I jest
21:40 < isis> quite true. all the more reason for you to become an anonymous gitian builder for bitcoind and tor browser, so that you can catch any developer hijinks or coersion.
21:42 < jeremyrubin> I'm down -- I'll set one up soonish (added to todo list)
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