--- Log opened Tue May 05 00:00:48 2015 00:02 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:10 -!- omni [~omni@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:11 -!- omni is now known as Guest34455 00:13 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15 -!- Guest34455 [~omni@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:17 -!- Relos [~Relos@unaffiliated/relos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:17 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] 00:21 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:34 < lmatteis> is anybody fluent in DHT networks around here? 00:34 < lmatteis> i can't seem to find a channel where to discuss p2p related issues 00:35 -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.170.1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:40 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:46 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:46 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:49 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@c-67-175-120-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:01 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:01 -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.170.1] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 01:02 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.24] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@c-67-175-120-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:05 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:23 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@195.175.52.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@195.175.52.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37 < bedeho> lmatteis: #webtorrent and #ipfs has a bunch of people who are quite knowledgable about that sort of stuff, they may be able to help you 01:38 -!- hashtagg_ 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ZZZzzz…] 11:00 < Adlai> Luke-Jr's comment in #bitcoin-dev makes me wonder: does bitcoin's game-theoretic security model (which afaik hasn't yet been formalized) rely upon no single actor being able to devalue the currency by shorting? 11:01 < Taek> Adlai: I don't feel confident about analysis, but 11:02 < Taek> shorting is a market 11:02 < Taek> if you are able to short Bitcoin, that means that someone is selling you that short 11:02 < Taek> and if you crash the market, you are effectively taking money from them 11:02 < Taek> so if it becomes known that someone is buying massive amounts of short volume on Bitcoin 11:02 < Taek> people are going to get suspicious 11:04 < Taek> that's going to hinder your ability to abuse shorting to acquire enough economic power to launch a 51% attack 11:04 * Taek waves hands furiously 11:05 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:06 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 < Adlai> the action in question is that of a stakeholder selling 20mb-block-bitcoin for 1mb-block-bitcoin, to "vote with his money" for greater investment of infrastructure towards securing his preferred chain 11:08 < Adlai> who is working on (or knows of draft versions of) a formal description of the game-theoretic model? 11:09 < Taek> if a significant number of people are split between 20mb-coin and 1mb-coin, it'll be a disaster even if both chains are secure 11:11 < Taek> it doesn't seem that different to me from 'voting with your money' with regards to altcoins though 11:11 < Adlai> the same argument could be made about any large holder in a liquid cryptocurrency; and by that argument, the "one dollar, one vote" election has chosen bitcoin 11:12 < Taek> I would agree with that 11:12 * Adlai is searching for a more nuanced/precise statement than "bitcoin needs to be valuable to be useful" 11:13 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:15 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:17 < gavinandresen> Taek: I mentioned “the goldfinger attack” (profit by making a massive short bet) to some insanely smart people at MIT, including a couple of economists. Their question was the same as mine: why would it work in the Bitcoin world, if it doesn’t work in stock markets or financial markets? 11:18 < Taek> I agree, but one potential answer is that stock markets are regulated 11:18 < Taek> IE you can't do inside trading 11:18 < Taek> that might change the mechanics substantially 11:18 < zooko> Taek: haha. 11:18 < yoleaux> 30 Apr 2015 17:29Z zooko: nice meeting you :-) 11:18 < yoleaux> 30 Apr 2015 17:35Z zooko: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/venture-deals.pdf 11:19 < zooko> kanzure: It was a pleasure! 11:19 < gavinandresen> Taek: … and bitcoin markets are regulated, because they intersect the banking system. 11:19 < zooko> kanzure: thanks! I've read that book, it was a good one. 11:19 < zooko> Taek: were you serious when you said you can't do insider trading? 11:19 < zooko> In normal stock markets, etc? 11:20 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:21 < kanzure> gavinandresen: i don't know if you should defer to them simply because they have been called smart by others :-) let's be more careful 11:21 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21 < zooko> gavinandresen: also Bitcoin is a much smaller, shallower market than those others. 11:22 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:22 < gavinandresen> zooko: there are plenty of small, shallow markets for tiny stocks. Yet we don’t see people shorting them then burning down their factories..... 11:23 < kanzure> overstock.com would love to disagree 11:23 < Adlai> gavinandresen: because bitcoin needs to be valuable to be secure. a penny stock certificate is just as difficult to counterfeit as BRKA 11:23 < zooko> gavinandresen: Hm. 11:23 < gavinandresen> at least, not here in the US. except for owners pulling insurance fraud…. 11:23 < kanzure> there are many stocks that get shorted far beyond the actual supply of that stock 11:23 < kanzure> "the goldfinger attack" was not necessarily about profiting by selling shorts or whatever 11:24 < zooko> gavinandresen: I don't know -- I'm certainly not one of those smart people -- but is it that there is the *potential* for massive amounts of money to come in to 11:24 < zooko> bust your insincere short? 11:24 < gavinandresen> In any case, if you’re worried about ‘goldfinger attacks’ — okey dokey. Look forward to your patch that fixes that potential problem. 11:24 < zooko> Even if that rarely happens in practice? 11:26 * kanzure is not okay with that argument from authority above 11:29 < zooko> I'm not saying that smart people know. I'm saying I don't know. ;-) 11:31 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:35 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.208.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:35 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:36 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:37 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.208.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@50.141.76.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@50.141.76.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:45 -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:8700:4833:d415:e2ca:96db:e50e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 < jgarzik> kanzure, slapped that book on my Kindle, thanks 11:49 -!- jtimon [~quassel@89.130.253.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:52 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@50.141.76.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@50.141.76.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.208.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:00 -!- NkWsy [~nkwsy@50.141.76.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:04 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.208.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.208.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:13 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 < kanzure> jgarzik: sorry for forgetting about you, whoops 12:35 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@195.175.52.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:45 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:47 -!- ozanyurt [~textual@91.93.214.51] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:56 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:01 -!- delitzer [~delitzer@18.189.14.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:01 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.62.223.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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14:32 * Adlai is not okay with the "argument from disinterest" 14:33 * dgenr8 fully expects massive pumps (and dumps) in bitcoin as big fiat gets going 14:33 < livegnik> http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20150505.pdf 14:33 < Adlai> right, because until now it's been "flat as a pancake" (as the cross-country coach said of his home track) 14:34 * Adlai isn't sure what to call this "attack", but it should have a different name... bond villains never competed over hashpower 14:37 < dgenr8> ability to hold your own keys is like taking delivery of known genuine stock certificates in seconds. i wonder if wall st is ready for that 14:42 * Adlai isn't sure "stock certificates" exist anymore, any more than ghosts, or the laws of nature 14:53 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] 15:01 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [] 15:02 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:04 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:04 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:04 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-182-122-50.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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[~gnusha@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/gnusha] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:35 -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 22:35 -!- Topic set by andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] [Fri Aug 22 14:51:37 2014] 22:35 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 22:35 [@ChanServ ] [ fluffypony ] [ nephyrin ] 22:35 [ [7] ] [ forrestv ] [ NewLiberty ] 22:35 [ [ace] ] [ GAit ] [ nickler ] 22:35 [ [d__d] ] [ gavinandresen ] [ NkWsy ] 22:35 [ _whitelogger ] [ gielbier ] [ nsh ] 22:35 [ a5m0_ ] [ gmaxwell ] [ null_radix ] 22:35 [ adams__ ] [ gnusha ] [ Oizopower ] 22:35 [ Adlai ] [ go1111111 ] [ OneFixt ] 22:35 [ AdrianG ] [ Graet ] [ optimator ] 22:35 [ afdudley ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ otoburb ] 22:35 [ airbreather ] [ gribble ] [ p15 ] 22:35 [ ajweiss ] [ gsdgdfs ] [ PaulCapestany ] 22:35 [ Alanius ] [ Guest39820 ] [ petertodd ] 22:35 [ AlexStraunoff ] [ 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kobud ] [ sparetire ] 22:35 [ cfields ] [ koshii ] [ sparetire_ ] 22:35 [ cluckj ] [ Krellan ] [ spinza ] 22:35 [ CodeShark ] [ kumavis ] [ Starduster ] 22:35 [ comboy ] [ kyuupichan ] [ starsoccer ] 22:35 [ copumpkin ] [ larraboj ] [ stonecoldpat ] 22:35 [ Cory ] [ leakypat ] [ STRML ] 22:35 [ coryfields ] [ LeMiner ] [ sturles ] 22:35 [ crescendo ] [ livegnik ] [ SubCreative ] 22:35 [ CryptoGoon ] [ lmacken ] [ SwedFTP ] 22:35 [ CryptOprah ] [ lmatteis ] [ Taek ] 22:35 [ cryptowest_ ] [ lnovy ] [ TD-Linux ] 22:35 [ d1ggy ] [ Logicwax ] [ throughnothing] 22:35 [ d9b4bef9 ] [ luigi1111 ] [ Tiraspol ] 22:35 [ dansmith_btc ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ tromp ] 22:35 [ dardasaba__ ] [ luny ] [ tromp___ ] 22:35 [ dasource ] [ Madars ] [ ttttemp_ ] 22:35 [ davout ] [ mappum ] [ veox ] 22:35 [ dc17523be3 ] [ mariorz ] [ vonzipper ] 22:35 [ delitzer ] [ Meeh ] [ warptangent ] 22:35 [ dgenr8 ] [ melvster ] [ warren ] 22:35 [ dignork- ] [ merlincorey ] [ waxwing ] 22:35 [ DougieBot5000 ] [ metamarc ] [ weex_ ] 22:35 [ Dr-G ] [ michagogo ] [ williamdunne ] 22:35 [ EasyAt_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ wiz ] 22:35 [ ebfull ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ wizkid057 ] 22:35 [ elastoma ] [ mkarrer ] [ wumpus ] 22:35 [ Eliel ] [ mm_1 ] [ xabbix ] 22:35 [ Emcy_ ] [ moa ] [ Xzibit17 ] 22:35 [ epscy ] [ morcos ] [ yoleaux ] 22:35 [ eric ] [ mr_burdell ] [ yorick ] 22:35 [ espes__ ] [ Muis ] [ yrashk ] 22:35 [ face_ ] [ nanotube ] [ Zouppen ] 22:35 [ fanquake ] [ narwh4l ] 22:35 [ Fistful_of_coins] [ NeatBasis ] 22:35 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 211 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 210 normal] 22:35 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 22:35 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 17 secs 22:42 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:49 -!- harrow [~harrow@2607:5300:100:200::160d] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:50 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has 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