--- Log opened Wed May 06 00:00:03 2015
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06:17 < sipa> zooko: :)
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06:36 < zooko> sipa: gavinandresen told me that recently, when I was stressing-out about something.
06:36 < zooko> ;-)
06:36 < zooko> Catch you later!
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10:56 < kanzure> andytoshi: have there been any proposed metrics for decentralization heath or security?
10:56 < kanzure> health
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12:03 < shen_noe> (potentially wrong channel) anyone use btproof.com (I use this frequently) I think their sha256 hashes may be wrong: demo-code: https://github.com/ShenNoether/btcProof .. also feel free to use that code for timestamping
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15:33 < scoria> se
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16:52 < nsh> how would you describe weil descent, or composite / extension order field attacks against ECC DLP in relatively layperson-accessible terms?
17:01 < nsh> are there inherently homomorphisms of the DLP on curves over fields of composite order to a DLPs on a higher-dimensional curves in subfields,  for which there do not exist analogous homomorphisms when the order is prime?
17:04 < nsh> i guess i want to have some intuition of how the primality removes the [accessible] structure of the field that facilitates computation of the DLP
17:05 < nsh> without needing to go into the full analytical geometry, which might be too much to ask
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17:11 < gmaxwell> The really really handwave understanding for basically all fast DLP solving is that you're fundimentally trying to find the period of a cyclic function.  If the period is very long this is hard.
17:11 < gmaxwell> If you're able to break it up so there are many subcycles and measure their period then you can solve it quickly.
17:11 < gmaxwell> Or if you're able to find constraints such that only one period can meet the constraints; you can go that way.
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17:35  * nsh nods
17:36 < Eliel> hmh, that's a delightfully simple way of explaining why it's hard.
17:38 < nsh> so you're still using ECC operations to find cycles via rho-pollard, but you're able to find shorter cycles because of the existence of a hyperelliptic curve over a subfield
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17:39 < nsh> (or the existence of a homomorphism from the elliptic curve to the hyperelliptic curve)
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17:43 < nsh> and subfields don't exist for curves defined over fields of prime order. but there are other kinds of structure that give constraints on possible cycles
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17:47 < gmaxwell> Right.  Like some curves there exist techniques to find little segments that cross over a small set of common points; and the you can solve a system of linear equations to find the cycle which is common to the segments.
17:48 < gmaxwell> (but this depends on being able efficiently find segments; and for the system of linear equations that results to be tractable; e.g. for it to have special structure)
17:49  * nsh nods
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17:59 < nsh> and weil descent allows for use of index calculus on the hyperelliptic curve, because its jacobian has some property of 'smoothness' that is lacking in the elliptic curve
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18:03 < gmaxwell> yea, it's the ability to compose a factorbase.
18:03 < nsh> so points on the hyperelliptic curve can be factors into prime divisor points
18:03 < gmaxwell> one way to look at it is that conventional curves don't have 'prime' members.
18:03 < nsh> *factored
18:03 < nsh> right
18:04 < gmaxwell> it should be noted that the weil descent itself isn't harmful; its that you end up on an insecure group that is fatal. Pairing crypto is all based on that transformation leaving you on a secure group.
18:05  * nsh nods
18:05 < gmaxwell> It should be noted that thats only one kind of possible computable isomorphism; every curve exists in a class of isomorphic curves of equivilent order; but computing the transfer is not usually computationally efficient.
18:06 < nsh> but the group is always of lower order for the higher-genus/degree side of the pairing, just not necessarily degenerate order
18:06  * nsh nods
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18:25 < bramc> Hey everybody
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18:28 < gmaxwell> bramc: hi!
18:29 < bramc> Hey gmaxwell. Sorry I haven't been on, I've been buried in work stuff.
18:30 < tromp> hi Bram
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18:30 < bramc> Hey John
18:31 < bramc> I'm looking at the recent postings from gavin and mhearn. Their reasoning... doesn't make sense
18:31 < tromp> i haven't followed the block size increase discussion much...
18:31 < gmaxwell> bramc: Yea... it's been uh pretty busy for me.
18:31 < bramc> It seems to boil down to saying that we can't have transaction fees because wallets can't handle them
18:32 < gmaxwell> bramc: there is a thread on bitcoin-development af of this afternoon.
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18:33 < tromp> wallets will adapt to whatever the miners impose, no?!
18:33 < gmaxwell> tromp: if not, they wouldn't be very usable as wallets.
18:33 < bramc> I don't think I'm misrepresenting mhearn's view: https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-capacity-cliff-586d1bf7715e
18:34 < gmaxwell> bramc: there is more going on than that; but I think a lot of it really reduces to dismissing the tradeoffs and incentive concerns with larger sizes; once you've dismissed then then arbritarily large sizes seem to be an obvious win.
18:34 < bramc> He's also badly misrepresenting what lightning network is, but I'll give him a pass on that because the good paper isn't ready yet.
18:35 < gmaxwell> But thats usually the case in engineering;  I want to make this bridge as cheap as possible! oh wait, it will collapse and kill everyone? oops.
18:36 < bramc> I'm thinking of writing a blog post about how the blockchain needs real transaction fees, and arguing for the opposite view, that the transaction rate should be intermittently clamped down on artificially while we don't have to, specifically to force the damn wallets to get fixed.
18:37 < bramc> This is an argument I've heard several core developers make, at least in person.
18:38 < bramc> On an unrelated topic, I have an interesting question: Can you play chess using the blockchain?
18:38 < gmaxwell> An interesting point is that we hit the default soft limit-- just enforced by purely local node policy-- hard in 2012 to early 2013 due to some gambling site that did every (often few-penny-ish value) bet as two transactions. The response was an urgent upping of the softcaps (which was the proximal trigger for that network fork in early 2013); after the softcaps were increased, ... wallets still
18:38 < gmaxwell> didn't fix their behavior.
18:39 < gmaxwell> (and that user went away for unclear reasons; recovering most of the space that they were gobbling up)
18:39 < gmaxwell> bramc: I have a protocol that works for games matching a set of criteria-- assuming smarter smart contracts; it includes chess, but only if you don't play by standard rules that time limit moves.
18:40 < gmaxwell> The criteria is basically that there can be no secret randomness. E.g. no shuffled deck of cards unless its done once at the front and is entirely public.
18:40 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yeah I'm thinking it's okay to declare a draw at a fixed number of moves and have time clocks where you get a dozen generations per move or so
18:40 < gmaxwell> It's also pretty efficient, if no one cheats nothing goes into the blockchain, and normally a cheat only puts two moves into the chain.
18:41 < gmaxwell> oh other criteria for my protocol: game must be turned based with a determinstic turn order based on the rules and prior state.
18:41 < bramc> gmaxwell, gin rummy is another interesting question
18:42 < gmaxwell> Basically the idea is that you make a transacript of the game, each player taking terms adding a move and signing the transcript.  At the end, if the players disagree about payment you show the network the last two moves and it checks their validity based on the rules and awards the winner.
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18:42 < bramc> gmaxwell, I would say that wallets which die when there start being real transaction fees get what they deserve
18:44 < gmaxwell> So the thing I'm suggesting works for chess, checkers, go, connect-k, othello,  diplomacy, .. many modern board games (e.g. seven wonders).  Some are more interesting than others, due to the inability to have a short time limit.
18:44 < bramc> gmaxwell, That sounds a lot more efficient than what I was thinking, which basically involves dumping the moves themselves into the blockchain encoded in what utxos are available. Might need some mutability fixes.
18:44 < gmaxwell> (you deal with someone abandoning the game by allowing you to post a partial transcript; and then the other player has to continue it or after a timelimit they default and you get the coins)
18:45 < bramc> Yeah everybody has to post timelocked forfeits as part of their move in case they don't make their next move
18:46 < bramc> I'd like to point out that it wouldn't be hard for somebody who knew what they were doing to rebuild satoshi dice using a simplified version of the oakland lottery protocol
18:46 < gmaxwell> yea, in my model there is only a pair of transactions normally,  e.g. escrow in, pay out.. if someone goes up responsive it's escrow in, abort-request, and then either the game continues-- potentially with every move in the blockchain if the other player is a jerk-- or you timeout.
18:47 < bramc> It should be possible to make it so that only the last move or two is in the blockchain, even if somebody behaves badly, at least that's what my intuition says now
18:48 < gmaxwell> It's even possible to set it up so you can sell your set in a game in progress; so you could have something like someone who buys games stuck in timeout and just machine plays them till the end. :)
18:48 < gmaxwell> bramc: yea, its just the problem if someone basically always tried to run out the limit, they can force one movepair per "claim that the other guy is unresponsive".  Otherwise it's only a single movepair or zero (if both parties agree at the end to shake hands and transfer funds to their mutual consent)
18:49 < gmaxwell> e.g. you let 2 of 2 decide the outcome regardless of the rules.
18:49 < bramc> I'm not entirely following, but I'll wait until you do a complete writeup to grok it fully :-)
18:49 < gmaxwell> so rational players should basically never result in any moves showing up on the chain; the smart contract just backstops to create an incentive for good behavior.
18:49 < gmaxwell> I have one I can send you that should be more or less readable.
18:50 < bramc> If there's a url for it I can put it in my list of things I need to read through
18:50 < gmaxwell> my todo list has publishing it somewhere public. :)
18:52 < gmaxwell> bramc: in any case; if you feel like posting something on the blocksize thing it might add some thoughfulness; I think a lot of the general public is just unaware that there is actually a tradeoff; having an 'outside view' but from someone whos actually faced these questions would be good.
18:52 < bramc> I have more than 20k views on quora each of the last two days. If anybody's wondering why I don't do regular blogging more often, that's why.
18:54 < gmaxwell> lol, thank you bitcoin talk https://i.imgur.com/RagmVkJ.png  (not related to anything we're discussing here)
18:55 < bramc> gmaxwell, I've been partially dragging my feet on it because I'm unsure of the presentation I'd like to do. Maybe I'll structure it rationalist style with a list of all arguments for, against, counters, and counter-counters
18:58 < bramc> Oh great, the spread in bitcoin prices on different exchanges has widened again. Isn't that lovely.
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19:00 < bramc> Come to think of it, my third party pays idea could help a lot with broken wallets
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19:05 < bramc> gmaxwell, You didn't answer my question about gin rummy
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19:07 < bramc> The shared permutation of shuffling makes things a bit interesting
19:09 < hulkhogan_> rofl, +1 gmaxwell
19:09 < gmaxwell> I don't know the rules anymore.  My protocol doesn't let you do anything random during the game. You can shuffle upfront so long as the deck is not secret. There are ways to achieve other things of course... but they require more complex protocols.
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19:17 < bramc> gin rummy just requires a shuffle up front, I think. Maybe there are more shuffles later, I don't remember.
19:17 < nsh> i was musing the other night that UTXOs can be bound to operations on a set of conflict-free replicated data types, which should allow for playing arbitrary games where rules are prepared in advance in terms of multisigs on allowed operations over the data structures
19:19 < nsh> maybe worth trying to construct tic-tac-toe this way
19:19 < jgarzik> I still want to see a theoretical model for on-chain poker
19:21 < bramc> jgarzik, heads up hold'em is easily covered by gmaxwell's criteria. Multiplayer not so much
19:22 < bramc> That's probably by far the best application of the whole thing, actually.
19:25 < jgarzik> yep :)
19:25 < bramc> A head's up hold em app with enforced money transfer and no trusted third party would pass my eye roll test
19:26 < bramc> Of course somebody might write an automated player for it
19:26 < bramc> But that would be awesome :-)
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19:36 < bramc> I'm writing notes on structuring the whole thing as a set of claims and rebuttals. This is an interesting approach.
19:37 < tromp> decentralized court?
19:38 < bramc> tromp, are you referring to a game called Court or making some other point?
19:39 < tromp> i'm referring to your claims and rebuttals on a blockchain
19:40 < tromp> sounds like the players are taking each other to decentralized court over the game
19:41 < bramc> Oh these are claims and rebuttals in a blog post, not on a block chain. They're about the blockchain though, specifically about the advisability/need for a raise in the block size limit
19:42 < gmaxwell> jgarzik: anything that needs a secret shuffle needs ... an unfortunately expensive zk proof for the fidelity of the shuffle.
19:42 < gmaxwell> e.g. talking about 80 MBytes of data kind of stuff... though that never goes on the network.
19:43 < gmaxwell> (perhaps there is some better way; but I dunno it; I've not tried too hard for poker; I think it would be more interesting to build easier things first)
19:44 < amiller> jgarzik, i swear im working on exactly that kind of thing
19:45 < amiller> it requires generic zk proofs which are pretty usable these days... i think 80mb of data on the blockchain is very pessimistic
19:45 < bramc> gmaxwell, I think it's okay for 80 megabytes to be exchanged between the two people as long as the only thing to hit the blockchain is small
19:45 < jgarzik> yeah all that doesn't need to go on the network (DHT!:))
19:45 < gmaxwell> I just said _not_ on the blockchain. :)
19:45 < jgarzik> indeed
19:46 < amiller> uh sorry well anyway the point if those zk proofs aren't that much
19:46  * jgarzik wonders if CP-ABE ever went anywhere?  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Distributed_markets#Pay_to_policy_outputs
19:47 < gmaxwell> It's more MPC than generic ZK... you need to create a cooperatively encrypted and shuffled deck.
19:49 < gmaxwell> e.g. one way to go about this is that you encrypt a deck with additively encryption; N times and permute, commit to all, then reveal the decryption of all but one (chosen by the other players); N must be large to make cheating infeasable.  Then the other player reencrypts and reshuffles and does the same. (and so on for more than two) at the end you get a deck which is encrypted by each of the pl
19:49 < gmaxwell> ayers, and shuffled. then you can decrypt each card in any order. The communication can be cut down with the tree structured seed stuff; but it's cpu costly regardless.
19:50 < gmaxwell> Important deliverables are the deck is valid, no one knows the whole deck, the cards can be decrypted only with all players cooperation, and can be decrypted in any order (so you can let only a single player learn the value (last to decrypt).
19:50 < bramc> The case of a cooperatively shuffled deck can be handled relatively easily. I commit to a shuffle, then you commit to a shuffle. Whenever we want to do a reveal, first you reveal what your pre-card was, then I reveal what my pre-card of the pre-card was
19:50 < bramc> And we can simplify things by making a cheat - that is, a repeat, result in a forfeit
19:51 < bramc> That post facto forfeit technique should vastly simplify everything, makes it so don't need a 'real' permutation
19:52 < gmaxwell> bramc: indeed, including a final move where you reveal any unplayed cards... but I didn't/dont see a way to simply do that unless the players have seperate decks.
19:52 < bramc> especially for heads up hold'em, which has a very limited number of reveals
19:53 < gmaxwell> Ah  I see you're stacking the permutations.
19:53 < bramc> gmaxwell, No such final move necessary, we just set up a precommitment where we each agree to a forfeit if the other player can demonstrate a collision in our pre-cards
19:53 < bramc> So our shuffles are then a precommited set of 52 numbers, each from 0 to 51
19:54 < gmaxwell> you make a deck, to draw a card you ask me for my next commited value; I use my commited secret permutation to tell you an index. and you draw that one.
19:54 < bramc> exactly
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19:54 < gmaxwell> but I can't draw from your deck-- we cannot share a deck where my draws block your draws of a particular card; with the other player not learning it.
19:54 < bramc> In this case the commited 'permutation' is a map though, and its being a permutation is enforced later
19:55 < bramc> no we're sharing a deck but it was shuffled first by me then by you
19:55 < bramc> so it takes two steps for each card reveal
19:57 < gmaxwell> I'm not seeing it, but it's been a long day; it's obvious to me how it works one sided.
19:58 < bramc> Somewhat off topic for bitcoin: It turns out that reverse pynchon gate is totally possible, using a clever trick I should have figured out ten years ago: http://arxiv.org/abs/1503.06115
19:58 < gmaxwell> e.g. I want to make my first draw, you show me a commitment that my first draw should be card 5 in mine.  Great. now I can have that card secretly; and prove it to you as required.
19:59 < gmaxwell> You don't learn it.
19:59 < gmaxwell> Say I draw card 1 that way.
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19:59 < bramc> I think oakland lottery style precommitments should fix that
19:59 < bramc> and I suspect the lightning extension makes everything a lot simpler
20:00 < gmaxwell> Now you want to draw, so that I don't learn your card other than it can't be card 1 because thats not in the deck.
20:00 < gmaxwell> you ask for the first permutation in my set, I prove its 12.  ... now you look at your 12th card. and it happens to be card 1.
20:00 < gmaxwell> So now we have the same card (but don't know it)
20:01 < gmaxwell> So what part did I misunderstand?
20:01 < bramc> There's a series of steps which have to happen in a particular order, it winds up being the same as making moves. We know based on the rules of the game that card 1 needs to be revealed, so I reveal the pre-card of 1 is 9 from your shuffle
20:01 < bramc> You then reveal the pre-card from 9 in your shuffle is card 51, so we now play with the king of whatever as that card
20:02 < bramc> next we need to reveal card 2. Let's say I cheated and my pre-card for 2 is also 9. You can now use that collision to claim a win.
20:03 < bramc> Likewise, if I reveal that the pre-card of 2 is 16, and then you reveal the pre-card of 16 is 51, I can claim a win by collision
20:03 < gmaxwell> okay, yes, I believe this can work if your draws are not secret once drawn.
20:03 < gmaxwell> But for games where you draw from a shared deck into a private hand, I don't see it.
20:03 < bramc> Right, heads-up hold'em is particularly easy that way
20:03 < gmaxwell> whew.
20:03 < gmaxwell> (I'm whewing my addled brain)
20:05 < bramc> Thankfully heads-up hold'em is also the most interesting game to implement from a what people would like to play standpoint
20:06 < bramc> And I think even if you complain that it's a solved game, even heads up pot limit, even with the only options being fold, call, limit raise, or pot raise, is very much an unsolved game.
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20:21 < bramc> I've finished my notes on a blog post about increasing the block chain size limit. It's a doozy. 33 lines of summaries of arguments, all needing to be fleshed out quite a bit.
20:22 < petertodd> bramc: cool! looking forward to it
20:22 < bramc> petertodd, Sorry for punching down at you by the way, I meant that to be a snark on this channel, not a post to reddit
20:23 < petertodd> bramc: no worries, that was just trolls being trolls
20:23 < petertodd> bramc: honestly I feel worse for you getting out of context exposure like that
20:28 < bramc> petertodd, Can't blame the people on reddit for not reading the original post. It was two whole lines of comments on irc. That's way too much.
20:29 < bramc> Although, yeah, that was far, far, from the first time something I've said has blown up because I was a little too glib with it. Other times have hit newspapers.
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21:54 < kanzure> "any transaction can include this subtransaction, fees accumulate, and then at the end of each block period, the best combination of the most fees wins inclusion into the next block-like object"
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22:24 < theymos> Reddit's understanding of the block size issue is so very, very wrong... Supporting the max block size increase is a reasonable position, but people on Reddit keep making the stupidest arguments and even *downvoting* people like luke-jr who actually know what they're talking about. Very disappointing.
22:25 < kanzure> ah so you are still capable of experiencing disappointment about reddit
22:25 < kanzure> theymos: i'm curious what you think about a position supporting a decrease in max block size?
22:26 < theymos> IMO this is mostly an unavoidable issue with the way that Reddit works, but I wonder if there's any way I (as a /r/Bitcoin moderator) could improve this without enacting massive censorship...
22:26 < kanzure> permaban people who demonstrate wrong reasoning
22:26 < kanzure> or, who consistently demonstrate wrong reasoning
22:26 < theymos> That's too much censorship IMO.
22:26 < kanzure> heh!
22:26 < kanzure> what about forced user flair
22:27 < theymos> That might be something to consider. Maybe it'd help to flair people who know what they're talking about. Redditors like to upvote colorful people...
22:27 < Luke-Jr> de-modding certain troublemakers and scamcoin promoters might help… I feel this conversation is off-topic for wizards, however..
22:28 < kanzure> it probably is off-topic
22:28 < theymos> kanzure: Decreasing the max block size might be a reasonable argument, depending on your goals and your idea of how the network looks right now IMO.
22:29 < theymos> Sorry for being off-topic.
22:30 < kanzure> decreasing max block size would be an extra kick in the pants for incentive to work on things like lightning netwrk
22:30 < kanzure> er, i mean lightning network
22:32 < theymos> Sure. But IMO it's not really necessary. People are already getting worried about the block size issue, even though there's not actually any tx backlog. And there probably will be some backlog (of spam, at least) in the near future.
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22:33 < Luke-Jr> /j ##reddit-bitcoin
22:33 < theymos> And it seems that 1 MB is a fairly comfortable size for most people.
22:33 < phantomcircuit> ha
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22:35 < Luke-Jr> on a more wizardly topic, I wonder if I've missed anything in my assessment: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/354qbm/bitcoin_devs_do_not_have_consensus_on_blocksize/cr149bw?context=5
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22:49 < gmaxwell> theymos: it's frustrating; the level of misunderstanding is so great that moving the needle is hard; whats needed is careful understanding of the tradeoffs. People are now totally polarized as 20MB NOW vs never increase; and even when people explain that their positions are more subtle, they get attacked as "never increase"  (though none of the tech people hold that position).   "Great, never ima
22:49 < gmaxwell> gined I'd become a strawman."
22:49 < kanzure> as a professional strawman i've always known my purpose is to burn alive
22:50 < Luke-Jr> lol
22:50 < gmaxwell> theymos: every voting like thing seems to go that way; -- that was why I was whining about voting features on the BCT wishlist. :( echochamber ho!
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22:51 < gmaxwell> theymos: dunno if you saw me mention it; but I suspect that if I had a mind wipe and tried to reason based on network behavior I think I might conclude that currently the size needs to be decreased. :(   Though I continue (foolishly?) to believe that the latest or next batch of bitcoin core scalablity improvements will be enough to stop the bleeding.
22:53 < kanzure> hooray see that folks gmaxwell has endorsed the decrease max block size position, time for me to go public with a hard fork
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22:54  * Luke-Jr wonders if someone were to push a branch with such a hardfork, how long it would take reddit to publish it
22:55 < theymos> gmaxwell: Yeah, Reddit has a terrible groupthink problem. And the worst part is that people usually don't realize this. So people often post really good posts, and their arguments are apparently "defeated" by anonymous downvotes, strengthening the groupthink position even more. (Global) voting won't be added to BCT for just this reason.
22:58 < theymos> gmaxwell: I can see the point of wanting to decrease the max block size -- decentralization is clearly becoming worse over time. But I think that the decline in full nodes will eventually reverse if the max block size remains steady because the "demand" of running a full node remains the same, but it'll become easier over time due to software and hardware improvements, as you mention.
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23:05 < Luke-Jr> I'm too tired to formulate an explanation for why this is wrong: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/354qbm/bitcoin_devs_do_not_have_consensus_on_blocksize/cr152bn?context=3
23:06 < hulkhogan_> im not sure the running commentary is really helping- i think reddit is more swayed by arguments on pretty blogs than their own commenting platform, something to think about maybe
23:06 < kanzure> oh that's easy, there's no reason for people to use bitcoin if they don't require it. so changing bitcoin into federated paypal is totally pointless if it's just to get more users.
23:08 < gmaxwell> theymos: We still have quite a few usability and scaling improvements up our sleeves; so I do think we'll catch up if things stablize.
23:08 < Luke-Jr> kanzure: he'll argue the "providers" are decentralised enough to trust, blah blah
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23:09 < gmaxwell> hulkhogan_: yea, reddit disrespects people who actually talk; while people who create distance and hardly comment are treated as heros.
23:09 < kanzure> Luke-Jr: decentralization is not about trust
23:09 < Luke-Jr> kanzure: /I/ know that :p
23:09 < gmaxwell> (not just a reddit problem)
23:09 < hulkhogan_> i think jgarzik is on to something
23:09 < hulkhogan_> he was compiling some research today
23:09 < hulkhogan_> im hopeful of that
23:09 < hulkhogan_> (no comment on reddit, very controversial..)
23:09 < deego> redditors are, by and large, like the average l33t ubuntu user. They don't understand the technicalities of the kernel. But, they understand smart people are in charge, and this shit is open source.  They mistakenly believed, hitherto, that these smart people had a consensus, and therefore, were all happy about the 20MB increase.
23:11 < kanzure> perhaps you andn i have a different definition of l33t
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23:14 < hulkhogan_> you know what though
23:14 < hulkhogan_> it might be worthwhile to compile the top comments of gmaxwell,sipa et al into a pretty blog and repost it on reddit
23:14 < hulkhogan_> that would be nice
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23:17 < hulkhogan_> im not a very good compiler or i would nominate myself for the task..
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23:19 < gmaxwell> well for most things we do have a consensus before reddit ever hears about it.
23:20 < gmaxwell> In this case the bitcoin-dev thread was started two days after.
23:20 < gmaxwell> er bitcoin-development
23:20 < hulkhogan_> yea
23:20 < hulkhogan_> this was a outlier case
23:21 < kanzure> unfortunately the bitcoin developer form of consensus, while highly reliable and extremely precise, happens to be a form of subtle internet-routed telepathy
23:21 < hulkhogan_> lolz
23:21 < hulkhogan_> i dont know, its picking up steam and some kind of measured response seems needed to deal with this reddit issue
23:22 < kanzure> it's not a reddit issue
23:22 < hulkhogan_> maybe i'm (probably) wrong in my perception there
23:25 < hulkhogan_> but it is starting to get picked up by media a bt
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23:27 < kanzure> if there is a root cause then the root cause is not reddit
23:27  * kanzure sleeps
23:27 < hulkhogan_> +1
23:28 < pollux-bts> imho /r/bitcoin had its eternal september moment in 11/2013
23:32 < gmaxwell> pollux-bts: I dunno at least they no longer downvote 90% of my posts into the dirt.
23:32 < gmaxwell> (they used to do that pretty reliably; since they'd say something factually incorrect in the promotion of bitcoin and I'd give a "well not quite so..." and BAM)
23:33 < pollux-bts> i think you gained some notoreity among hodl'ers in that time
23:36 < gmaxwell> It's a bit annoying; we don't have to fib to support Bitcoin; Bitcoin is awesome; it's awesome even though its not perfect or that we don't have all the answers. And misleading people about it about it just makes it worse.
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23:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: as you said to me when I was just getting into this space "the blockchain is fucking magical" (I may be misquoting you slightly...)
23:40 < gmaxwell> hah
23:43 < bramc> "I'm going to locally increase the max block size my node accepts to 20mb tomorrow! I'm a real bitcoin developer now! All you old bitcoin developers are jealous! Look how big my dick is!"
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23:45 < petertodd> bramc: did you see this? https://twitter.com/ferdousbhai/status/596189562692567040
23:45 < bramc> Saying that there isn't consensus among bitcoin core developers is putting it mildly. There's overwhelming opinion that increasing the limit is a bad idea, with gavin and mike hearn being the only two objectors
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23:45 < petertodd> bramc: yup, and among the research community as well
23:45 < petertodd> bramc: we've probably got more consensus on this than we do on whether or not proof-of-stake works, and by a long shot
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23:48 < bramc> Mike Hearn is also big on zeroconf for some reason. He has some strange ideas
23:49 < bramc> Gavin's proposal of immediately jumping to 20mb is rather extreme in its specifics as well
23:50 < bramc> petertodd, proof-of-stake 'works', in the sense that an appropriately designed proof of stake system can avoid falling apart if a single party clearly controls the whole thing
23:50 < bramc> Whether it's possible to do better than that with proof-of-stake is a matter of substantial controversy
23:51 < petertodd> bramc: heh, yeah, I figure in practice it may work even better than proof-of-work if access to hashing hardware gets restricted and/or 51% attacks become common
23:51 < petertodd> bramc: but that's *heavily* leaning on social assumptions, and ugly ones
23:51 < bramc> petertodd, Making a decentralized system succeed by masking the fact that it's actually a centralized system isn't a great victory
23:53 < theymos> (Off-topic: Some Bitcoin experts now have flair on /r/Bitcoin. Maybe this will improve the situation there somewhat.)
23:53 < petertodd> theymos: thanks!
23:54 < petertodd> bramc: agreed
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