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06:12 < nickler> I'm creating a library of interesting scripts, i.e. scripts that trigger edgecases, by running afl-fuzz against libbitcoinconsensus. This is useful to test reimplementations and already discovered two hardfork vulns in btcd. See https://github.com/jonasnick/bitcoinconsensus_testcases
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06:15 < kanzure> isn't this the same site with the guerrilla cnc guide
06:16 < kanzure> ... yes.
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08:26 < nsh> .title https://github.com/ChristopherA/revocable-self-signed-tls-certificates-hack
08:26 < yoleaux> ChristopherA/revocable-self-signed-tls-certificates-hack · GitHub
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10:43 < Taek> Does there exist any formalization of the idea that accessibility of validation is inversely proportional to the accessibility of participation?
10:44 < Taek> IE at 100 tps there's a lot more room in the blockchain for transactions, on a global network each transaction is going to be cheaper as there is more room
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10:45 < Taek> but at 100tps validation is much more expensive and the poorer parts of the world might not be able to keep up, and are therefore required to trust the processes of the wealthy world to keep consensus
10:45 < fluffypony> Taek: there's a dichotomy in every "third-world" country
10:46 < fluffypony> like in South Africa, for eg.
10:46 < fluffypony> there are tons of poor people
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10:46 < fluffypony> but there's a substantive group of early adopter / tech capable / disposable income types
10:46 < Taek> (I mean for arbitrary definitions of 'poor'. Poor could mean minimum-wage American, or it could mean A-round funded corporation - the line is drawn where people can no longer afford validation)
10:47 < fluffypony> so I don't think it'll so much be trusting the wealthy world as in "people in another country"
10:47 < fluffypony> but trusting people more or less known to them (eg. their boss, or the CEO of the company, or some guy on TV)
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11:16 < Taek> hmm. A major advantage of the blockchain is the reduction of trust infrastructure. Right now, Visa, Paypal, etc. have a bunch of regulations, insurances, and general overheads that result of needing to trust untrustworthy entities.
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11:16 < Taek> Bitcoin reduces this overhead using cryptography, justifying the cost of running a node
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11:17 < Taek> I wonder if there's some way to determine the optimal settings such that total overhead is maximally minimized
11:18 < Taek> At some point I'm sure that traditional 'trust infrastructure' becomes cheaper to maintain than bitcoin infrastructure (eg 10,000 TB blocks)
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11:21 < Taek> As you increase the cost of validation, the number of people forced to use traditional infrastructure rises, as does their cost of using the traditional infrastructure
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11:38 < Taek> I think that, even when the cost of participation is too high for you, the value of validation is still high. You have access to things like auditing your bank
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11:40 < Taek> Therefore the optimal tps is lower than the point where the cost of validation equals the cost of participation
11:41 < Taek> You want the cost of validation to be lower than of participation. Today, making a few transactions per month is cheaper than running a node
11:42 < Taek> Therefore, we don't need to increase the block size for now
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12:04 < zooko> Does anyone know someone who's involved in the NASDAQ Open Assets Protocol project?
12:04 < zooko> I'd like to talk to such a person.
12:05 < nsh> (cc kanzure)
12:05 < zooko> kanzure: ??
12:06 < nsh> did you search the mailing list archives for relevant posts?
12:06 < zooko> nsh: I did not.
12:06  * nsh has a look
12:08 < nsh> weird, no mention at all of 'nasdaq' in [bitcoin-development] since i've been subscribed
12:09 < zooko> Thanks for looking.
12:09 < nsh> np
12:09 < nsh> .g open assets protocol
12:09 < yoleaux> http://ipv6.google.com/sorry/IndexRedirect?continue=http://www.google.com/search%3F%26q%3Dopen%2520assets%2520protocol%26btnI%3D&q=CGMSECoBBPgCAXIwAAAAAAAIaucY-PzDqgUiGQDxp4NL6TYAuvAjRjoMx83yFYZ_OXRZg_U
12:09  * nsh frowns
12:10 < nsh> perhaps you can find someone via the openassets account on github
12:10 < nsh> or their repo contributors
12:10 < nsh> https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/graphs/contributors
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12:10 < zooko> https://github.com/Flavien
12:11 < nsh> seems familiar. i think they have contributed to the ML or bitcointalk before
12:12 < zooko> Thanks.
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12:12 < nsh> flavien had some posts in a threat about increasing OP_RETURN max payload size
12:12 < nsh> (possibly related to open-assets colouring schemata)
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12:13 < zooko> *nod*
12:14 < nsh> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/search/?q=Flavien
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12:37 < pigeons> he has lots of emails about it in the "bitcoinx" mailing list
12:37 < pigeons> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/bitcoinx
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12:38 < pigeons> all i remember is he decided to be a little lazier in his "colored coin" implementation than the other guys cause he wanted to roll out quicker
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12:41 < nsh> well, per the 'news'buzz, it got something rolled out
12:41 < nsh> *he got
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13:31 < fluffypony> "I now with the advent of 7petabyte computers one could easily store 2.5 petabytes of human information for just an instance of integrity not to mention otehr emotions."
13:31 < fluffypony> thus began emotional consensus
13:31 < Adlai> Burrito: 31
13:31 < Adlai> oops
13:31 < Burrito> :)
13:31 < Adlai> sorry
13:31 < Burrito> np
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13:37  * nsh blinks
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13:42 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: "and thus began the age of emotional consensus" has better flow.
13:42 < fluffypony> hah hah
13:43 < fluffypony> someone needs to take the Damian Gomez emails and make an Ethereal Verses sequel
13:43 < fluffypony> or at least spiritual successor
13:43 < gmaxwell> they're already markov ish, did you see my response?  ... or his source code? it mixed some linux raid driver code with openssl bignums.
13:44 < fluffypony> lol
13:46 < nsh> wait, this is a real thing?
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13:46 < kanzure> sounds like nsh hasn't been reading his inbox
13:50 < gmaxwell> I'd assumed that Damian was someone trying to provide some stress relief for the list. :)
13:51 < gmaxwell> because the aacraid/bignum soup can't be serious.
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13:51 < Adlai> "The latest Tweets from Damian Gomez (@damiangomezxxx). Porn Actor & GoGo Dancer"
13:52 < kanzure> frankly i'm starting to become a fan of the "national shitposting agency" emails, but that's just me :-)
13:52  * nsh smiles
13:53 < nsh> so has anyone audited this "open assets protocol"?
13:53 < nsh> https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/blob/master/specification.mediawiki
13:54 < nsh> are there any likely gotchas with the use of OP_RETURN scripts for smart-property trading>
13:54 < kanzure> well i remember their source code was cleaner than counterparty
13:54 < nsh> (because it'll get a free high-stakes security audit once NASDAQ starts trading securities with it)
13:55 < sipa> the hell?
13:55 < kanzure> iirc that news article was only saying an internal test of a private pre-market trading thingy, i wouldn't call that high-stakes at all
13:56 < nsh> yeah, i'm being a bit hyperbolic. they will probably not be completely reckless with it, one would hope
13:56 < nsh> 'In its first application expected later this year, Nasdaq will launch blockchain-enabled digital ledger technology that will be used to expand and enhance the equity management capabilities offered by its Nasdaq Private Market platform. '
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13:57 < nsh> so i guess this is a way for clients to get a private 'internal' platform for assets that need to be passed around within an organization
13:57 < nsh> maybe
13:57 < sipa> would be fun if miners started demanding higher fees from opreturn transactions, because they're likely valuable asset trades
13:57 < nsh> hmm
13:57 < kanzure> nsh: "nasdaq private market" is not the product you think it is
13:57 < nsh> ' NASDAQ Private Market is the premier equity services provider to private companies. Our end-to-end solution enables private companies to digitize, integrate, and control all of their equity-related functions, including cap table management, shareholder liquidity, investor relations, and capital raising. '
13:58 < kanzure> sure, like esharesinc or whatever
13:58  * nsh nods
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13:59 < nsh> .wik esharesinc
13:59 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I couldn't find article.
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14:01 < kanzure> anyway, it was a little weird seeing so much misunderstanding in the comments today about openassets. yes it's true it's called a colored coin, but it's not physically colored satoshis and the protocol is not validated by miners or p2p participants.
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14:03 < kanzure> does anyone have the original list of objections about mastercoin, omniwallet, counterparty, openassets, coinprism, etc..? the ones regarding protocol verification, storing invalid transaction data, etc..
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14:05 < nsh> (a cap table is essentially internal asset tracking)
14:06  * nsh doesn't keep notes :/
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14:07 < nsh> probably worth getting some filfthy banker money to pay literate people to go over all the historical discussion and curate/annotate/cross-reference salient points
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14:08 < kanzure> that's something that you could easily convince the anthropologists to do
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14:10 < nsh> sadly the crossover of anthropologist and literate cryptoenthusiasts is pretty minimal, i'd hazard
14:11 < kanzure> specifically the cluckj user in here is a literate cryptoanarchowhatever enthusiast but professional anthropologist
14:11 < nsh> oh, cool
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14:12 < nsh> i know a few other (gabriella coleman, notably, for free software culture) and some people that are interesting in digital activism, but not particularly technically savvy
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14:12 < nsh> well, plotting on a logarithmic scale
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15:02 < nsh> who is the donald knuth of cryptography?
15:02 < nsh> i mean, like, if you had a choice of someone to be trapped in an elevator with for several days
15:02 < nsh> and you really wanted to figure out the universe
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15:03 < sipa> i am sure there many exceedingly competent cryptographer which i do not want to be trapped with in an elevator for several days
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15:04  * nsh smiles
15:05 < nsh> i think the time-shape of cryptographic theoretical elaboration is unfavourable to their being any grand poobahs. too much of the fun stuff is 'recent', compared to vanilla computer science
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15:06 < nsh> not that there isn't fun recent developments in the latter, but there is also a massive body of important results going back decades
15:06 < nsh> *there being
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15:16 < gmaxwell> nsh: CS is full of forgotten good stuff.
15:16  * nsh nods
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15:22 < nsh> i had a vague intuition a while back it's possible to do a kind of platonic geoengineering using cryptography. that is, create a facsimile of some local region of 'actual' platonic mathematical landscape, but with differences into the computational proximity and connectivity between points, through the use of trapdoor functions and other techniques to facilitate the transport between domains relative to some parameters
15:23 < nsh> but it's so vague as to be almost meaningless. trying to find approximations to the line of thought at least, so know if i'm on to something or just being silly
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15:23 < nsh> (basically a very ambitious generalization of kleptography)
15:24 < nsh> pseudorandomness is the key, if there is one
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15:25  * Adlai does not follow
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15:28 < nsh> so in the DUAL_EC_DRBG example of kleptography, there are some backdoor parameters that facilitate the recovery of some entropy from a bitstream because there is a different connectivity in the space of computation between the bits of the  if you know the secret
15:28 < nsh> *of the bitstream
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15:31 < nsh> so you have what appears, computationally, to be a uniform distribution, but actually has a subtle interrelation between the bits that, with the knowledge of the backdoor parameters, it's possible to recover the seed / initial state with a small number of bits
15:31 < nsh> (about 256 bits)
15:33 < nsh> generalizing this to absurdity, you can kinda conceive of being able to install similar 'backdoor connectivity' between arbitrary regions in a computation landscape
15:33 < nsh> (which is a handwavey way of thinking about how much work it takes to get from some information to some other information)
15:34 < nsh> maybe you could construct a toy natural number system where P is exactly NP for some subset of problems
15:34 < nsh> or some problems over some range of inputs
15:34 < nsh> but only if you know the relevant set-up information
15:35 < nsh> the same way CRS set-up knowledge allows you to 'cheat' mathematics in zero-knowledge proof system
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15:37 < nsh> (dual_ec_drbg backdoor mechanics in practice: https://blog.0xbadc0de.be/archives/155 )
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15:38 < nsh> and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulg_AHBOIQU
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20:27 < NewLiberty> Is there a mitigation to the risk of a node advertising itself as a version different from what it truly is?
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20:28 < Adlai> not paying attention to the self-reported version strings
20:29 < NewLiberty> Intentional misrepresentation, say if there were a hostile reaction to a hard fork
20:29  * Adlai is half-serious... nodes should treat all data as potentially hostile
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20:31 < NewLiberty> Sure, but orthogonal.  If a node is running on a different fork (because different version) but masquerading as the opposite fork in order to disrupt it
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20:32 < NewLiberty> If I were putting together a realtime blackhole list of nodes that are not on my fork using version, and they are masquerading, the list is bad
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20:39  * Adlai shrugs, this also sounds more for #bitcoin-dev or even #bitcoin
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20:41  * NewLiberty thanks you for your patience
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20:51 < Luke-Jr> NewLiberty: the version is software, not network. if you need to "blackhole" nodes on a different network, you're already dead.
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20:52 < NewLiberty> Thanks for responding, but you've misunderstood the risk.
20:53 < Luke-Jr> there is no risk, when it comes to reported software version. *shrug*
20:54 < NewLiberty> Adlai answered already.  Don't trust it.
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20:55 < Adlai> judge peers based on behavior, which incidentally is what the current software already dose
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20:58 < NewLiberty> Right. just will need the distinguishing behaivor (which can't exist yet anyway)
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21:04 < NewLiberty> Luke-Jr consider if you are looking for nodes validating vs 20mb blocks and some trouble maker sets up many nodes that pretend to do so by reporting new version, but are running old version on 1mb chain instead.
21:06 < Adlai> if one chain has higher total work than the other, and both are valid by your own node's consensus rules, should you care about anything else?
21:08 < Adlai> partitioning your own node to intentionally use a less secure fork will only make it easier to perform attacks involving reorganizations against your node
21:09 < NewLiberty> Of course not, in such case there isn't an issue. but that state would be temporary, and likely brief.
21:10 < NewLiberty> These would be chaff nodes, just to get in the way of the fork they would want to fail
21:10 < NewLiberty> So it is sort of thier goal to make it iasier to perform such attacks
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21:16 < Adlai> maybe you can explain what "such attacks" entail? afaik the relevant "attack" in this situation is an economic one, that of incentivizing a majority of hashrate to mine your preferred fork; and this is because the fork with the majority hashrate wins, no matter what the "chaff nodes" say
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21:17 < NewLiberty> Hashrate will follow investment
21:17 < NewLiberty> yes?
21:17 < Adlai> do you have a specific attack in mind, one at the level of the wire protocol?
21:17 < NewLiberty> Not at the wire...
21:18 < NewLiberty> If all the TX on one fork aren't getting to miners
21:18 < Adlai> "wire" in the sense of protocol messages sent between nodes, maybe that's the wrong word
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21:22 < NewLiberty> With no TX that fork isn't going anywhere, and then divergence in pricing between two forks occurs, miners might be switch to the other more lucerative fork.
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21:25 < NewLiberty> Anyhow, you answered what I sought in your first line, so TY
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21:28 < Adlai> np. also check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Freenet
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21:29 < Adlai> (in case you're worried about getting partitioned in the clearnet p2p network)
21:35 < NewLiberty> I'm not worried for myself, just looking at some attack vectors that might be used to leverage an economic attacks by disrupting during a rare event.  Corner case risks.
21:37  * NewLiberty tumbles down the freenetproject rabbithole anyway
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