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02:28 < Eliel> yep, that 60% is calculated using current block reward (25 BTC) and assuming the exchange rate is 1000000 USD/BTC :P
02:29 < Eliel> (and assuming 50% of the block reward ends up being used for electricity)
02:35 < Taek> TIL we spend $72m / hr on electricity. I guess that's a lot.
02:37 < Taek> actually that's a gross simplification of how things work. Also I forgot to divide by 2
02:48 < nsh> heavy electricity should be counted separately to regular electricity tbh
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04:36 < Eliel> regarding this bc.i randomness fail. Would it generate acceptable randomness to use the camera, then sha256 the raw image data and use that for private key or random seed?
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04:39 < jonasschnelli> Eliel: why not. But adding some accelerometer "true" randomness is probably more straight forward and end user friendlier.
04:40 < Eliel> ah, true, accelerometer data has quite a bit of noise in it too.
04:40 < wumpus> do be aware the all kinds of devices can pretend to be there, but not actually send true data. At least you should combine it with OS entropy (eg /dev/random).
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04:41 < jonasschnelli> Agree with wumpus: only extend the system provided (/dev/random) entropy and not replace it.
04:42 < STRML> Try haveged if you're feeling brave
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04:43 < Eliel> wumpus: that's a good point. Would need to verify there's entropy available somehow before using.
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04:44 < wumpus> and that's not really possible to verify; the CCD chip could be sending you random-looking test patterns
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04:50 < hearn> Eliel: it should be unnecessary
04:50 < hearn> Eliel: remember that if the OS is doing its job correctly *all* sensor data is fed into the entropy pool
04:51 < hearn> Eliel: also good luck explaining to users why you want them to take a photo of anything at all :)
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04:56 < Eliel> does an app with rights to use the camera need the user to knowingly take a picture for the picture to be taken?
04:56 < nsh> (no)
04:56 < nsh> (but the inside of one pocket looks a lot like another)
04:57 < nsh> how many GPS sats is the average phone connected to at once?
04:57 < hearn> the user will be looking at the screen at the moment the photo is taken anyway
04:57 < hearn> nsh: average phone? zero :) bear in mind lots of users will be indoors
04:57 < nsh> that's a lot of pretty casually-independent fine-grained timers with other jitter
04:57 < nsh> good point
04:57 < hearn> anyway, like i said, the hardware drivers are meant to feed data into the entropy pool anyway
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04:57  * nsh nods
04:57 < hearn> without a doubt, some phones have some drivers that ignore some entropy and don't do that
04:57 < wumpus> Eliel: the user will hear the photo-sound
04:58 < hearn> a survey of how badly phone kernel developers screw this up would be an interesting academic exercise
04:59 < jonasschnelli> Ha. Right. That's why it would be probably a good idea to force add some accelerometer data to the entropy.
04:59 < Eliel> nsh: I don't expect good entropy from the picture. I expect good entropy from the noise :P
04:59 < jonasschnelli> i remember the last android RNG flaw we had.
05:00  * nsh nds
05:01 < STRML> has anyone run haveged on android?
05:01 < Eliel> there's millions of pixels sampled with the worst of the cameras. Would take pretty darn good camera to not manage to get 256 bits of entropy in there :)
05:03 < jonasschnelli> Eliel: i kinda like the idea with the camera. It proved independence from the system RNG. If i would use a smartphone wallet, i would use a such feature during creation of a bip32 master seed.
05:03 < wumpus> but how random and independent is sensor noise?
05:04 < jonasschnelli> Imaging: "creating random seed" (then show some accelerometer movement and slowly build up a pixel-art with some sensor noise during loading of multiple camera pictures)
05:05 < jonasschnelli> (and it could truly be a marketing booster. :)
05:06 < wumpus> anyhow - feeding extra data into your entropy pool is never harmful (as long as you combine it in a sensible way, there have been mistakes with that too), but don't rely on it, and always combine in OS's cryptographic randomness as well
05:06 < Eliel> wumpus: Well, if it was easy to predict, I'd expect we'd have noiseless cameras by now.
05:09 < wumpus> Eliel: it may be too expensive to predict on the hardware itself, but still possible to reduce entropy by analysing the specific camera's noise profile (e.g. by looking at other photo's of the user)
05:09 < nsh> wumpus, adding extra data never harmful is disproved iirc constructively by djb or someone
05:09 < nsh> (if you know the details of the mixing/whitening then you can add harmful data)
05:10 < wumpus> nsh: if you combine it in a sensible way, e.g. hash it together with sha256 I don't see how it can be harmful
05:10 < sl01> http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140205-entropy.html
05:10 < nsh> it may be contingent on suboptimal mixing
05:10 < wumpus> nsh: (that's why I said combine it in a sensible way, if your combination algorithm can be exploited, sure...)
05:10  * nsh nods
05:11 < sl01> it depends on the evil random source knowing the other randomness, then brute forcing a certain output (in the case of hashing)
05:11 < Eliel> wumpus: that's why I'm not trying to get more than 256 bits of entropy out of it, even though I believe there's enough in a picture for a few hundred kilobytes of random.
05:11 < wumpus> sl01: yes, the random sources need to be as independent as possible
05:11 < wumpus> if they can 'collude' in some way, no amount of mixing will save you
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05:15 < Eliel> many years ago, I tested recording microphone channel from the soundcard (without a microphone connected), took only the least significant bit of each byte and then fed the data to an open source tool designed to analyze the quality of randomness. It passed all tests no problems.
05:15 < sl01> just read the blockchain issue, that's so lol
05:15 < nsh> (also, collusion can be coerced by external influence / entrainment. cf.
05:16 < nsh> .wik injection locking
05:16 < yoleaux> "Injection locking and injection pulling are the frequency effects that can occur when a harmonic oscillator is disturbed by a second oscillator operating at a nearby frequency." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_locking
05:16 < nsh> )
05:16 < STRML> unfortunately there isn't a good way to know if random data that passes the tests is unpredictable or not
05:16 < STRML> best you can hope for IMO is to mix a lot of good sources together and hope nobody has the means or the motivation to untangle it
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05:19 < wumpus> Eliel: another thing to consider: could another application take a photo at exactly the same moment?
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05:21 < Eliel> wumpus: Wouldn't that mean you're already compromised?
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05:23 < sl01> why not just host their own randomness web service and sign randomness with a predistributed key
05:23 < sl01> seems better than "phone randomness hacks"
05:23 < wumpus> Eliel: well it depends on what you call compromised, many android users have milder and more serious forms of malware on their phone without knowing
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05:24 < wumpus> Eliel: ... with different levels of access, e.g. maybe it could access the camera too, or the sd card, but not your application's private key store
05:24 < wumpus> sl01: that's creepily centralized
05:25 < sl01> better than random.org w/ no http header check
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05:25 < wumpus> the server could even target people, e.g. have a if(userid=='crook') return 'predictabelentropy'
05:26 < sl01> obviously i mean itd still be mixed in as they do with random.org, just seems like thatd be a simple improvement to what they already had
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05:27 < wumpus> well sure it's better than random.org than no http header check, but what isn't... :)
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21:13 < Taek> Assuming transactions were ~500 bytes each, launch a DoS on the transaction pool to push transactions up to 1c each would cost $312,000 per day.
21:13 < Taek> If I were to instead spend that money on bandwidth and try to do a traditional ddos on the mempool, would I get farther?
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21:26 < Luke-Jr> Taek: you mean 1c ea to get confirmed within … how long?
21:27 < Taek> confirmed before the DoS attack ends. If you're dumping $312,000 per day into fees, you can continuously keep the mempool full of 1c transactions
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21:30 < Taek> s/launch/launching
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--- Log closed Sat May 30 00:00:26 2015