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00:27 < bramc> Macroeconomic concerns are irrelevant to Bitcoin as it exists today. It's a completely normal commodity driven by microeconomic principles.
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00:30 < Jaamg> bramc: depends what you mean; BTC/USD market price can maybe be assumed "completely normal commodity driven by microeconomics principles"
00:31 < phantomcircuit> bramc, er that's not exactly true
00:31 < Jaamg> but if we try to create formal model for tx fee economics, imho we have a great risk to fall into pretence of knowledge
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00:32 < bramc> phantomcircuit, Okay 'completely normal' is probably inaccurate. It's deeply weird in many ways. But the pricing mechanisms are all ordinary supply and demand.
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00:35 < phantomcircuit> lol so that paper is basically showing that there has to be blocksize pressure in order for bitcoin to survive
00:35 < phantomcircuit> and seems to be reasonable
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01:26 < Jaamg> It is really going to suck if bitcoin ends up being a scheme where we religiously try to keep avg block size / max block size at some "optimum" level so that "bitcoin survives". It will be perpetual political conflict on whether the max block size should be higher or lower (and by how much).
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01:28 < Jaamg> in the mean time too small blockchain hinders adoption. When we reach the limit, not everybody get their txs through, no matter how much they pay. It will not be "pay more and we process your tx", it will be "go away"
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01:36 < Jaamg> i agree that there must be a safety mechanism for exploiting bloat. i also agree that there must be a mechanism to keep blockchain secure even after the subsidized era. i agree that max block size can be a solutin for the former but i disagree that it can be a solution to the latter
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01:57 < phantomcircuit> <Jaamg> in the mean time too small blockchain hinders adoption. When we reach the limit, not everybody get their txs through, no matter how much they pay.
01:57 < phantomcircuit> wat
01:57 < phantomcircuit> that's not how it will work
01:58 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: yes it does. if we have 101 people trying to make a tx and only room for 100 tx, not everybody are going to get their tx through
01:58 < Jaamg> sorry that the expression was really messed up, as you can probably see, english is not my 1st language
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01:59 < Taek> jaamg: that's true, not everyone will get a txn through. But someone is going to give before the others. It it's worth $1 million to you, you're probably okay. It's probably not worth $1m to everyone else
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01:59 < Jaamg> Taek: yes, it will not be "go away" for everybody
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02:01 < Jaamg> but since so many people must "go away" the marginal tx fee probably approaches 0 (or whatever is the minimum that the miners process)
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02:01 < Jaamg> i have no formal proof of this, just a gut feeling
02:02 < Jaamg> it is hard to imagine that there is a long line of people waiting so that somebody gets priced out and they can take his place
02:02 < Jaamg> *so that when
02:02 < Jaamg> -and
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02:07 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, yeah and? that's a fundamental property of a global consensus system
02:08 < phantomcircuit> there is limited throughput
02:08 < phantomcircuit> infact
02:08 < phantomcircuit> 1MB is probably too large
02:08 < phantomcircuit> (good thing we're not even close to 1MB yet!)
02:09 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: not sure if sarcastic
02:09 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, why would any of that be sarcastic
02:10 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: well, i see no point in having max block size other than prevent exploits
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02:12 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, care to elaborate on what you understand the potential exploits to be? (im curious about this view point)
02:13 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: low cost to bloat blockchain with meaningless txs
02:13 < Jaamg> maybe there is something else
02:13 < Jaamg> isk
02:13 < Jaamg> idk
02:15 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, ok so yeah that's true
02:15 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, but now go one deeper, why is the blockchain full of meaningless transactions a problem?
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02:17 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: there is a risk involved in a situation if we lose the property "anybody can be a full node"
02:17 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, right great
02:17 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, now consider, what happens if there are actually an enormous number of legitimate users
02:18 < phantomcircuit> in other words replace blockchain bloat with blockchain use
02:18 < phantomcircuit> does that change the risk at all?
02:18 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: yea, then we face a difficult situation where we must either tell some of the people to go away or take the previously described risk
02:21 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, the risk is still the same
02:21 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: yes it is
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02:34 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: can you tell why the blocksize should be smaller than 1MB? you said it wasn't sarcasm
02:35 < Jaamg> max blocksize that is
02:35 < fluffypony> because the average bandwidth available in places like South Africa (where I live) is like 128kbps
02:35 < Jaamg> fluffypony: you can't process 1MB blocks? :p
02:35 < fluffypony> I'm on a 10mbps line at home, I'm not representative of the general populous
02:35 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, empirical measures of decentralization all show declines
02:36 < phantomcircuit> the total number of nodes which are reachable has dropped from 8k to 5.3k
02:36 < phantomcircuit> many more people are using reduced security clients
02:36 < phantomcircuit> most of the available headroom to optimize bitcoind has already been squeezed out of it
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02:37 < phantomcircuit> (excluding the very nice performance benefits of using libsecp256k1 to verify... but we cant do that yet since the openssl code is consensus critical)
02:38 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: correlation does not imply causality. is there a proof that those 2.7k nodes have quit because of avg block sizes getting higher? i think more feasible explanation would be that they were home miners who quit after the difficulty got too high
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02:41 < Jaamg> phantomcircuit: do you expect the number of full nodes to rise if max block size is lowered to, say 750kb?
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02:43 < phantomcircuit> Jaamg, whenever i ask someone why they dont run bitcoin core as their wallet
02:43 < phantomcircuit> the response is that it's too slow 99% of the time
02:43 < phantomcircuit> the remaining 1% is features that were explicitly not implemented because they're considered not safe
02:45 < p15_> how elastic is that though, even if it were 10x faster maybe they'd still think it was too slow
02:47 < phantomcircuit> p15_, see that is a good question
02:47 < phantomcircuit> p15_, i genuinely dont know
02:47 < phantomcircuit> p15_, i can however say for sure that making it slower will make it worse
02:48 < phantomcircuit> i cant say that making it faster will necessarily make it much better
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03:11 < jrayhawk> and even half of the rural U.S. population is at sub-broadband speeds, making tens of gigabytes of blockchain synchronization an onerous requirement for verifiable transactions.
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04:10 < midnightmagic> a combined spv initial operation during the sync process would likely eliminate that: "it works while the sync is happening"
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06:28 < hulkhogan_>  /window splitv
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06:35 < fluffypony> hulkhogan_: thank you for signing up for Cat Facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about CATS! >o<
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06:37 < hulkhogan_> thanks... just what i needed :)
06:38 < fluffypony> https://medium.com/@Ledger/exploring-java-card-for-bitcoin-applications-faf02a2908d6
06:38 < fluffypony> that's impressive
06:38 < b_lumenkraft> fluffypony: where can i get these cat facts?
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06:39 < fluffypony> b_lumenkraft: you don't find cat facts, they find you
06:39 < b_lumenkraft> :)
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06:52 < eudoxia> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SntyF7_-eogJ:www.thestrangeloop.com/2015/urbit-a-clean-slate-functional-stack.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
06:52 < eudoxia> ugh wrong window
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08:16 < dabura667> https://github.com/bitpay/copay/blob/master/public/views/create.html#L109
08:16 < dabura667> This string says "Create x-of-y wallet"
08:16 < dabura667> but in Japanese localization I need to change the order
08:16 < dabura667> to "x-of-y wallet create"
08:16 < dabura667> but the way the string is formatted it is not possible currently
08:16 < dabura667> without having separate html file for Japanese.
08:16 < dabura667> "Create %d of %d wallet" %(cosigners, copayers) type format is possible?
08:16 < dabura667> if this was translated I could move the %d in the po file for translation
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09:55 < dgenr8> phantomcircuit: if Houy's assumptions were reasonable, bitcoin would have died already, since no fixed fee and no capacity pressure until 2015-09.
09:59 < dgenr8> phantomcircuit: instead, hashing grew exponentially and i think we can agree exchange rate figures heavily into miner decisions
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10:03 < dgenr8> no capacity pressure until 2014-09, sorry http://i.imgur.com/5Gfh9CW.png
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10:54 < narwh4l> How do you all feel about proof of burn? I'm writing contracts for counterparty but proof of burn seems destructive to me.
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10:55 < narwh4l> Also, if you don't like proof of burn an alternative to counterparty would be wonderful if you know of one
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10:59 < kanzure> narwh4l: there's openassets, omniwallet, colour, just.. lots..
10:59 < narwh4l> kanzure: do you have a favorite?
11:00 < kanzure> so far i have been intrigued the most by sidechain stuff
11:03 < narwh4l> kanzure: so no clear winners? a link to practical sidechain doc would be immensely appreciated
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11:07 < temujin> narwh41: there is no existing side-chain implementation
11:07 < temujin> if you want to do something you can test on main/testnet right now, go with open assets or counterParty
11:08 < temujin> this might be biased, but it's a good overview of the protocols: http://blog.coinprism.com/comparison-coinprism-counterparty-mastercoin/
11:09 < narwh4l> temujin: Great comparison sheet, even if it is biased
11:09 < narwh4l> thank you
11:10 < temujin> if you're interested in the counter-points to this, i believe there is a reddit thread... i can't find it right now though
11:10 < temujin> fwiw counterParty has the best documentation by far
11:11 < narwh4l> temujin: counterparty definitely seems to have it all together, proof of burn just makes my stomach turn a little
11:12 < temujin> i believe the idea is that it gives the tokens some value which can be used to trade against other assets on the counterParty network
11:12 < temujin> in a similar way that Bitcoins themselves have value because it costs resources to mine
11:12 < temujin> also, as a method of distribution of initial tokens, it makes sense because the developers/early contributors took equal risk with everyone else involved
11:13 < temujin> (as a function of burnt BTC)
11:14 < narwh4l> temujin: I understand why it gives value to xcp, I just hate the notion of making BTC useless.
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11:16 < temujin> it's an uncomfortable thought but in practice it makes no difference, right?
11:16  * narwh4l shrugs
11:16 < narwh4l> I guess
11:16 < temujin> even if 99% of all Bitcoins were burned, we could simply extend the decimal place further and trade with the remaining coins
11:17 < temujin> perhaps there's an argument to be made for concentration of wealth, but that's separate from the notion of destroying Bitcoins
11:17  * narwh4l shuts up and carries on
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13:19 < Relos> has this been looked into: https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/606531393007558656 ?
13:20 < kanzure> .tw
13:20 < yoleaux> Great computer science paper on reducing the advantages of fast internet connectivity in Bitcoin: GHOST http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/881.pdf (@NickSzabo4)
13:20 < maaku> Relos: that paper is years old
13:21 < maaku> and yes it has been looked into and has issues
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15:29 < droidr> +m?
15:29 < droidr> ok
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 05 00:00:32 2015