--- Log opened Tue Jun 09 00:00:36 2015
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00:13 < gmaxwell> amiller: yes, the size is 2 + 8 (or 0 if no minimum value) +  ceil(n/8) + 5*n*32 bytes where n is the number of digits in base-4 for the mantissa of the rangeproof  (if the number of bits isn't a multiple of 2, the last digit is in base two and takes 3*32 instead of 5*32)).
00:14 < gmaxwell> The size of the mantissa is selectable in one bit increments, and there is a seperate exponent that scales the hidden part by 10^x  for x in 0..18, as well as an optional minimum value that moves the zero point.
00:14 < gmaxwell> I have a longer description, lemme see if its posted yet.
00:15 < gmaxwell> ah okay, they're here: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt
00:17 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: really cool work :)
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00:21 < gmaxwell> here is the underlying crypto code, if you want to look at it without disentangling it from the elements-alpha sidechain code: https://github.com/ElementsProject/secp256k1-zkp/commit/bd067945ead3b514fba884abd0de95fc4b5db9ae
00:21 < petertodd> gmaxwell: +1 (though hopefully it actually works!)
00:22 < gmaxwell> petertodd: well, bugs are always possible. But the cryptographic construction itself is fairly boring, as such things go.
00:23 < gmaxwell> I wouldn't consider it production ready, though it has had ~some~ level of review and about a cpu-year of fuzz testing.
00:23 < petertodd> gmaxwell: just need to figure out a way for people to steal lots of money by breaking it... :/
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00:23 < gmaxwell> Done.
00:24 < gmaxwell> (I mean, use it with non-testnet coins and you have that)
00:24 < petertodd> hehe, yup
00:25 < gmaxwell> Perhaps I've snowed myself with the nice layering, but at least it decomposes into nice subsystems that you can analyize independantly.
00:26 < gmaxwell> Also, wrt development, basically the amount of over-design is inversely proportional to how high in the stack it is. E.g. the ring signature is quite carefully reviewed (at least as much as something new can be), while the bitcoin integration is... well.  There are chunks of code that have probably never been run, and maybe only reviewed a bit by the person who wrote them. :P
00:27 < petertodd> which is fine, given that the pool of people who can review it goes up the higher the stack you go :)
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00:28 < gmaxwell> In any case, matt, pieter, and luke should all understand the integration fairly well and should be able to answer questions on it as well as I can (or likely better)
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00:29 < petertodd> I'm going to find some time to go through all the changes in Elements sooner or later
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01:02 < gmaxwell> amiller: also if you run across anyone claiming to have a plain ECDL-assumptions range proof with efficiency better than 2.5 elements per bit, I'd love to see it.  Lit on this seems kinda fragmented because the earliest schemes were not formally published; there are lots of papers on schemes with efficiency worse than that even with bilinear crypto.   There are schemes for groups of unknown order
01:02 < gmaxwell>  (e.g. usually trusted setup) which are super elegant and pretty efficient for /very/ big numbers.
01:03 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: thanks!
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01:04 < gmaxwell> also, anyone get it running yet?  There is a faucet with coins already on the sidechain.
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01:07 < amiller> gmaxwell, the borromean thing was great, i dont suppose you have a writeup in equal detail, like in between the confidential_values.txt and the code?
01:07 < gmaxwell> amiller: not yet.
01:08 < amiller> i want to look at the floating point algorithm really carefully
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01:08 < gmaxwell> amiller: the borromean thing started off morely like that txt, and with illustrations like https://people.xiph.org/~greg/sign.svg and andytoshi made it awesome.  Not quite there yet.
01:09 < amiller> ok, i understand :)
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01:10 < gmaxwell> amiller: the decimal float works quite simply though;  normaly the basis thats proved is 0 or 1; 0 or 2; 0 or 4 ... (well technically 0,1,2,3  0,4,8,12...)  when the exponent is 1 instead  the basis is 0/10 0/20 0/40...
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01:11 < amiller> hm
01:11 < gmaxwell> and so on for higher exponents. There is actually a way to make the exponents somewhat priviate (you only make their differences public when you combine them; though I don't implement that; as it has a base level of inefficiency (have to carry around a blinded exp) that makes it seem like not a win.
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01:14 < gmaxwell> The 'cute' optimizations in my system are this:  use of base 4 OR instead of base 2, which takes the cost from 3 elements a bit to 5 for two bits.  Elimination of the commitment for the last digit by reconstructing it from the value being proved and all the other bits ....  and the "proof rewind" that lets someone sharing the provers coins recover a message sent by the prover 80% of the size of t
01:14 < gmaxwell> he proof.
01:14 < gmaxwell> the things like the variable mantissa size and exponent are more pedesterian.
01:16 < gmaxwell> Taek: phantomcircuit was joking that we should reduce the block size to 999999 bytes just to double emphasize that this thing isn't currently a scaling expirement.
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04:22 < Taek> gmaxwell: I'm not sure where I got the idea, but I had been under the impression that sidechains were set up as a migration tool
04:22 < Taek> you would make sidechains, and then if people liked them they would move their coins over and just use that chain instead of the original chain
04:22 < Taek> I'm not the only one who had/has that idea
04:23 < sipa> Taek: the idea of sidechains grew indeed from the question of a safe upgrade mechanism
04:23 < sipa> and they can be used for that
04:23 < gmaxwell> Taek: Thats a possible mode, one we mention in the whitepaper; and it was the original motivation for adam proposing the one-way peg.
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04:26 < Taek> [23:25:44] <sipa> our purpose with sidechains is unlocking experimentation with new technology
04:26 < Taek> [23:25:52] <sipa> it's not a substitute for a stable main chain
04:26 < Taek> these statements had confused me
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05:57 < waxwing> so in Confidential, it looks to me from a read through, that people will probably still want/need coinjoin like approaches to anonymise the transaction graph, right?
05:57 < waxwing> or is there some plan to implement ring sigs in a side chain for actual txs?
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05:57 < waxwing> one could see a lot of scenarios where just blinding the amounts might not be good enough
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06:00 < andytoshi> waxwing: coinjoin becomes much more powerful; yeah, there is still a motivation for it to avoid people determining the shape of the transaction graph
06:00 < andytoshi> but there is a big benefit just from having amounts hidden; a lot of stuff in http://www.coindesk.com/merge-avoidance-privacy-bitcoin/ is blocked for example
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06:01 < andytoshi> as for ringsigs, they break pruning and would require a lot of design work .. i'd like to see them but i don't think there are concrete plans for them (tho if we found some asymptotically more efficient ringsig scheme maybe we'd change our minds)
06:03 < waxwing> break pruning, yes. it would be interesting to hear what some big institutions' reactions are to "we can provide confidentiality of amounts, but the utxos are still traceable". what i always find difficult is that coinjoin is already there, so it's a bit weird trying to figure out what you're actually trying to do there.
06:05 < gmaxwell> waxwing: coinjoin is quite weak in practice and annoying to use (so it isn't used more universally) due to the amount non-privacy.
06:06 < waxwing> i see; so you envision that this is the main confidentiality feature (amounts) and coinjoin is just kind of there if anyone is motivated to do it.
06:06 < gmaxwell> Also, realize that we have a very weird way of looking at this in bitcoin:  Transaction graph privacy is metadata privacy; indeed metadata privacy is important, but its fundimentally harder than content privacy (often impossible to be completely metadata private), and often less valuable than content privacy.
06:07 < gmaxwell> I think both would be used, it's specifically design to work with coinjoin (and the rpc interfaces in elements should be all setup for someone to build a coinjoiner on top)
06:07 < gmaxwell> but at the same time, I do think that value privacy is more important generally.
06:07 < waxwing> btw thanks for the write up. my brain nearly melted but i think i finally understood how you prove the commitment to zero :)
06:07 < gmaxwell> ! HURRAY!
06:07 < gribble> Error: "HURRAY!" is not a valid command.
06:08 < fluffypony> lol gribble
06:08 < waxwing> grumpy gribble
06:08 < fluffypony> ¡ olé !
06:09 < gmaxwell> waxwing: I'm overjoyed to hear that;  the range proof is a slick trick that I feel like everyone whos into the technical stuff can understand if they care to...
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06:20 < waxwing> yes, i guess it's the privacy vs anonymity thing again. wrt my "big institutions" question, it's the former they want, not the latter. metadata is not a bad analogy (at least, once you actually have the amount privacy).
06:20 < MrTratta> I don't remember who but someone suggested some ncurses based console app that was great to monitor bitcoind, does anyone remember the name? I couldn't find it on github
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06:25 < gmaxwell> MrTratta: https://github.com/azeteki/bitcoind-ncurses
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06:26 < zooko> gmaxwell: way to go on releasing Elements!!
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06:26 < gmaxwell> zooko: thanks!
06:27 < gmaxwell> zooko: seen the confidential transaction technical primer I wrote?  (it needs a more proper writeup like we did on the new ringsignature, but ... soooo many things to do so little time.)
06:28 < zooko> I haven't read it yet.
06:33 < MrTratta> gmaxwell, thanks
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06:39 < waxwing> huh, already a quote from the Blythe Masters company in a WSJ article: "DAH Chief Technology Officer Shaul Kfir said it could be a “very powerful way to protect investors from having to disclose sensitive business information, even while providing complete transparency to regulators.”
06:39 < waxwing> that's kind of in line with what we said.
06:43 < Taek> It would be useful in employment scenarios too.
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06:54 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/sidechains-dev
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07:07 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: I'm reading over your confidential transactions proposal, nice! In it you have `H = to_point(SHA256(ENCODE(G)))`, which could be interpreted incorrectly (as I did at first) as `SHA256(ENCODE(G))*G`, instead of taking SHA256(ENCODE(G)) as the x coordinate of a new pub key
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07:10 < sipa> StephenM347: would H = RecoverPoint(x = SHA256(Encode(G)), y = even) be less confusing?
07:10 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: damn, you know I was trying there to avoid precisely that misunderstanding.
07:12 < gmaxwell> I think in some earler draft I'd tried H.x = SHA256(ENCODE(G)) and that was confusing in some other way. :) I'll try to fix.
07:13 < StephenM347> sipa: less confusing, but maybe not clear as it could be. RecoverPoint isn't terminology that I'm well versed with anyway.
07:13 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: point for your understanding that you reconized that SHA256(ENCODE(G))*G would be fatally busted.
07:13 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: Haha, thanks. I read it and was like, that can't be what he means. Specifying the x in that type of a syntax makes more sense
07:14 < sipa> H is defined as the curve point with X coordinate equal to SHA256(G) and corresponding Y coordinate to be on the curve. The important part is that it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone knows the value h such that H = h*G.
07:14 < kanzure> win 12
07:14 < kanzure> ehrjoiqjeq
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07:15 < gmaxwell> yea, thats why that misunderstanding is so unfortunate: it's like the one and only way you cannot produce H, almost any other procedure is okay, just not that one! :)
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07:20 < stonecoldpat> for elements did you guys change the alpha consensus library? (libalphaconsensus) my build keeps failing on it with architecture x86_64, i thought it was me, but i just compiled bitcoin core usign the same ./configure with no problems
07:20 < stonecoldpat> with "symbols not found ofr architecture x86_64", the most frustrating error code in the world :(
07:21 < sipa> did you try a make clean, or a git clean -dfx (warning: wipes all non-committed files) ?
07:21 < sipa> it's forked off 0.10.2 with a few commits from 0.11, but nothing build system related
07:24 < stonecoldpat> yeah, tried both (and upgraded brew, re-installed boost etc, upgraded to yosemite too)
07:24 < kanzure> hmm.. https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements/compare/bitcoin...alpha
07:25 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: it would also be good to check that there is an associated y coordinate for the x coordinate SHA256(ENCODE(G)) (there may be no point with such an x coordinate)
07:27 < sipa> StephenM347: if there wasn't, he would have chosen something else than SHA256(G) :)
07:27 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: turns out that there is, so long as ENCODE is uncompressed DER. :)
07:27 < sipa> gmaxwell: not DER
07:27 < gmaxwell> sipa: someday I'll remember the correct name of that encoding.
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07:27 < StephenM347> Ah, okay, great
07:28 < stonecoldpat> http://pastebin.com/GBinzzw0 is the console log when the error happens
07:28 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: actually the first two things I tried were not on the curve.
07:28 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: interesting, sha256d and hash160?
07:28 < gmaxwell> (SHA256(G.x) and SHA256(compressed-seralized-G))
07:29 < sipa> gmaxwell: i wonder if it has a name besides "The encoding specified by SEC1v2 in section 2.3.3"
07:29 < gmaxwell> no-- wouldn't hae used hash160, too small, would make a non-uniformly distributed X would would perhaps be harmless but seem weird.
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07:29 < StephenM347> yeah, bad choice with hash160
07:29 < StephenM347> bad guess, I mean
07:31 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: How can we be sure that `(In1 + In2 + In3 + plaintext_input_amount*H...) - (Out1 + Out2 + Out3 + ... fees*H) == 0.`, won't it just be some multiple of G?
07:32 < andytoshi> StephenM347: that first H should be a G right?
07:32 < andytoshi> StephenM347: it'll be a multiple of G, specifically 0*G ;)
07:32 < StephenM347> andytoshi: I don't think so, copied from source
07:33 < sipa> the formula is correct
07:33 < sipa> StephenM347: the creator of the transaction must guarantee that all blinding values cancel (i.e., all blinding factors summed in the outputs must equal the sum of blinding factors used in the inputs)
07:33 < andytoshi> oh, right, i always get the blinding factor and actual inputs crossed
07:33 < andytoshi> i feel like our design is backward with respect to my intuition..
07:34 < StephenM347> sipa: oh, that makes sense, so all but one of the blinding factors are chosen randomly
07:34 < andytoshi> StephenM347: correct
07:34 < sipa> StephenM347: bingo
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07:34 < sipa> StephenM347: which is why you can't have a transaction with blinded inputs but without blinded outputs
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07:46 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: "If the author of a transaction takes care in picking their blinding
07:46 < gmaxwell> factors so that they add up correctly,"
07:48 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: I also wanted to use "G" for the value, but you see it's the value that gets handled in unusual ways.. where as the blinding factor is just treated like a secret key.
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07:48 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: so for example my H constant time table is setup to only work for 64 bit values and such.
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08:00 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: I'm really intrigued by the whole homomorphic commitments process. Do you hope/expect that this will be a feature of a side chain that eventually becomes the predominant chain?
08:02 < gmaxwell> or another scheme (e.g. more efficent; perhaps unconditionally sound; I'm confident there is room for improvement)
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08:10 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: If there are many chains, and a merchant wants to receive coins from a customer who uses a different chain, won't it take a long time to transfer the coins back to the main chain and then onto the merchant's preferred chain?
08:10 < sipa> StephenM347: atomic swaps
08:10 < sipa> they're much faster than the sidechain transfer mechanism
08:11 < StephenM347> sipa: hmm, I need to read more on side chains. How much faster?
08:11 < sipa> one transaction on each side
08:11 < sipa> or 2, i misremember
08:12 < StephenM347> Is it possible to do it across a hub and spoke micropayment channel?
08:12 < StephenM347> i.e. if I'm a hub that can send and receive on both chains
08:12 < StephenM347> could be instant
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09:27 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: oh, that's a good reason
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09:27 < andytoshi> i was worried that there was an algebraic reason, which i don't see (and am pretty convinced there is not), that'd make me worried about my understanding of the system :)
09:29 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: no, it's just boring engineering reasons.
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10:32 < temujin> gmaxwell: awesome video on side chain elements, do you guys have a blockstream IRC channel?
10:32 < gmaxwell> we have a sidechains irc channel,  #sidechains-dev  though no public blockstream IRC channel right now.
10:33 < temujin> perfect thank you
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10:49 < kanzure> "There was this wonderful technology invented a few years ago to deal with spam. It's called Hashcash. All these hacky heuristics like block size are just dancing around the problem, and the natural solution is already present in bitcoin: smaller blocks, (down to the point of individual transactions) each mined. Don't relay things that haven't been mined. As spam or transaction levels go up, mining targets for submission go up too. Of ...
10:49 < kanzure> ... course this is a pretty serious redesign of bitcoin, and I'm not offering a concrete proposal at this time (but have one in the works, and I'd like to see others). I call the parameters of these hacky heuristics "Consensus Threatening Quantities" (CTQs) because changing them induces a hard fork. Bitcoin is full of them (block time, block size, target difficulty, retarget time, etc) and bitcoin would do well to face difficult ...
10:49 < kanzure> ... redesign questions head on, and remove them entirely. (Proposal to appear...)"
10:49 < sipa> I wish him godspeed.
10:50 < maaku> there is #blockstream. but for sidechains related stuff please use #sidechains-dev
10:50 < kanzure> hmm for some reason i thought the quote was saying something else
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10:51 < kanzure> i could have sworn i saw a proposal like "all of these quantities should be balanced against proof-of-work difficulty and perhaps also transaction fees"
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10:53 < fluffypony> just wait for his proposal to include an elastic block time
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15:09 < bramc> Hey everybody
15:10 < tromp_> hi Bram
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15:12 < sipa> ohai
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15:16 < zooko> Hi, bramc!
15:16 < fluffypony> ohai bramc
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15:19 < bramc> I have some questions about elements: http://elementsproject.org/
15:21 < sipa> shoot
15:21 < sipa> also, #sidechains-dev
15:22 < bramc> (1) What is signature covers value? I'm a little perplexed as to what it means
15:22 < sipa> that the amount being spent by a txin is part of the signature hash that is being signed
15:22 < bramc> You mean, the size of an input?
15:23 < sipa> this means that a signing device does not need to know the full previous transaction whose output gets spent - if it receives incorrect information about the amounts, the transaction will just be invalid
15:23 < bramc> Isn't that implicit in what is referred to?
15:23 < sipa> it is implicitly referred to by the txin prevout hash
15:23 < sipa> it's not a security argument
15:23 < bramc> It seems like a waste of a few bytes
15:23 < sipa> hashes are constant size
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15:23 < sipa> adding data to the hash input does not change anything :)
15:24 < sipa> apart from a few microseconds in hashing
15:24 < bramc> oh, hmm
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15:24 < bramc> I still don't understand the point, but fair enough, no harm no foul
15:24 < sipa> ok
15:24 < sipa> here is the use case
15:24 < sipa> you have a hardware signing device
15:24 < bramc> (2) what are mitmask sighash modes
15:24 < sipa> you need to give that device some transaction to sign
15:25 < sipa> you clearly don't trust the software creating that transaction, or you wouldn't need a hardware device
15:25 < bramc> What's wrong with giving the device the whole previous transaction?
15:25 < sipa> nothing
15:25 < sipa> it may just be large
15:25 < sipa> this makes it unnecessary
15:25 < bramc> Oh okay, simple little optimization then
15:25 < sipa> yup
15:25 < sipa> as i said: not a security improvement
15:26 < sipa> not sure what mitmask is
15:26 < bramc> Bitmask Sighash Modes
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15:26 < sipa> those are not in elements
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15:27 < bramc> It's under 'proposed elements'
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15:31 < bramc> (3) What is there to prevent a memory exhaustion attack using string concatenation?
15:32 < sipa> there is no dup command
15:32 < sipa> i think?
15:32 < sipa> oh, there is
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15:35 < bramc> string concatenation is listed as one of the reintroduced commands
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15:35 < bramc> I can see why, it's specifically meant to enable the use of a merkle root of possible ways to unlock a utxo
15:36 < sipa> there is a maximum size on the result of a cat
15:36 < sipa> (it was a good question, i had to go check the code)
15:36 < bramc> Is it a fixed max size?
15:37 < sipa> yes
15:37 < bramc> What is the max?
15:38 < sipa> 520 bytes
15:39 < bramc> I think with one more simple opcode siacoin functionality could be added: BLOCKID, which takes the value of a specified height block and pulls it in (obviously this causes a timelock)
15:40 < sipa> siacoin?
15:41 < bramc> http://www.siacoin.com/ the basic idea is that I can pledge an amount of coins to be paid to you at some time in the future if you can prove that you still have a copy of a certain file at that time
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15:43 < bramc> The pledge contains the merkle root of the file I want stored, and some future block id is used to specify which part of the file you have to cough up to retrieve the reward
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15:48 < bramc> I think the new elements add enough that all that's left is the thing to pull in the block id
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16:56 < kanzure> http://sidechain.fairlystable.org/
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17:04 < zooko> This is good enough that I want to port it into -wizards from twitter: https://twitter.com/zooko/status/608423673616343040
17:05 < frankenmint> thx
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17:06 < kanzure> .tw
17:06 < yoleaux> Outstanding post by @JeremyRubin: Eight urgent issues in Bitcoin which are more important than block size. https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/608421368674328576 (@zooko)
17:06 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/608421368674328576
17:06 < yoleaux> I just put out a blog post on some other things to talk about other than block size https://medium.com/@jeremyrubin/8-problems-with-bitcoin-to-solve-before-block-size-6b4d35e0c6f9 #bitcoin (@JeremyRubin)
17:06 < fenn> the tweet is a link to https://medium.com/@jeremyrubin/8-problems-with-bitcoin-to-solve-before-block-size-6b4d35e0c6f9
17:06 < kanzure> gah
17:09 < frankenmint> reading the first concern is setting the tone of skepticism I hold for the remaining 7 problems to read about
17:10 < frankenmint> "This is more important than block size because, while it would be nice to support all of humanity’s transactional volume in Bitcoin, it is meaningless if that information can easily be stolen as we’ve seen with the numerous data breaches over the last few years or if that information can be weaponized against the population."  <<comes off like tin-foil hattery imho
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17:14 < gmaxwell> frankenmint: there is another way to also think about this that I'm surprised that no one has caught on.
17:15 < gmaxwell> frankenmint: to the extent that we have extra capacity available (in terms of bandwidth and CPU cycles relative to software/protocol performance)-- it's not clear that we do have an excess, but assuming we do-- that excess can be used in many ways.  It can be conserved, which can allow for more decenteralization, it can be spent to increase scale,  it can be spent to increase privacy, it can be s
17:15 < gmaxwell> pent to increase flexibility, or it can be spent on a mixture of these things.
17:16 < gmaxwell> I agree that if there is an excess some of it should be spent on just increasing throughput. But how much? Well that depends on the other things that were forgoing by spending more of it on throughput.
17:18 < frankenmint> you mean having excess hardware on standby that only turns on if X-transactions sit in uxto?
17:18 < frankenmint> to relay trx?
17:19 < gmaxwell> No, I mean the ability of the network to support a particular amount of transaction capacity without people shutting off nodes due to their operating costs.
17:19 < gmaxwell> someone on BCT last night sent me this image, ... bitcoin node counts over time, though the general data isn't new to me (and I don't know the specifics of their methology); it paints a pretty bleak picture about our levels of excess capacity: https://i.imgur.com/EL0zHRe.jpg
17:20 < frankenmint> since we're sharing, here's a graph of analysis that luke-jr compiled using existing block data
17:20 < frankenmint> http://jsfiddle.net/r5swbpp8/1/embedded/result/
17:21 < frankenmint> taken from here http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/38giar/analysis_graphs_of_block_sizes/
17:24 < frankenmint> that sharp drop between may and septermber makes no sense
17:25 < frankenmint> whatsup w/ that china data I think that's incorrect info
17:25 < gmaxwell> some of that is incorrect, no doubt.
17:25 < frankenmint> should be topsy turvy w/ heavier china influence in september
17:26 < frankenmint> ill look around for that on bct to read into more context, thx for sharing!
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17:26 < gmaxwell> frankenmint: but through the end of 2012 into 2013 the blockchain grew tremendously due to a single service flooding the chain with tiny transactions. It went from a couple hours to sync the net for most people to days for many.
17:30 < gmaxwell> [OT] http://torrentfreak.com/elsevier-cracks-down-on-pirated-scientific-articles-150609/ in which Elsevier complains about libgen challenging their ability to censor data online, "As a result, its repository of illegally obtained content poses a threat to both quality journal publishing and to public health and safety"
17:39 < Taek> were there really 300,000 nodes at one point? That seems so strange to me
17:39 < gmaxwell> no, thats probably overcounting dynamic IPs.
17:39 < gmaxwell> there were on the order of 80k reachable I believe though.
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17:58 < moa> elsevier is worried about "consumer protection" like the NYDFS is worried about consumer protection
17:59 < frankenmint> moa: I read that and thought "LOL TPP"
17:59 < frankenmint> sadly
18:02 < gmaxwell> It's not unique to elsevier, I wrote about this problem of journals, museums, and libraries turning themselves into censors because suppressing information is pretty much the only element of curation that more traditional instutions can clearly do in a fundimentally better way than newer approaches.
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18:04 < ajweiss> the relationship between science and funding is starting to really show its age
18:06 < frankenmint> gmaxwell: the unintended consequence is ip theft, but at the same time ip law is based on rules set around the mid 19th century
18:06 < frankenmint> archaic and certainly never considered in the context of digital instantaneously available information
18:06 < akstunt600> IP just doesnt "fit" into the direction things are moving
18:06 < moa> ajweiss: we need a new model ... Scicoin?
18:07 < akstunt600> i dont think anyone can really change that
18:07 < frankenmint> moa: akstunt600 at this point we're talking revolution is the only way to make changes to that clusterfuck
18:07 < frankenmint> because its 'powers at will' enforcing old rules to enforce ip law
18:08 < akstunt600> Well everyday that goes by whil the government remains the same puts us closer
18:08 < akstunt600> Tech will outpace government
18:08 < akstunt600> already is
18:08 < frankenmint> its not govt
18:09 < frankenmint> its private enterprise doing this
18:09 < ajweiss> moa: if anyone can ever write a program that can determine the value of an academic work, i'd be really impressed... especially considering "the value of an academic work" is largely undefined
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18:09 < akstunt600> frankenmint, by way of the government rules and regs
18:09 < akstunt600> its complicit system
18:09 < akstunt600> a^
18:10 < frankenmint> ahh yes :/
18:10 < ajweiss> although, heh, it would be a pretty fun project to try and train a machine to spot papers with screwed up statistics
18:10 < frankenmint> ajweiss: that's called technological singularity
18:10 < moa> ajweiss: altcoins don't need a verifiable value basis for another chain ...
18:10 < moa> just a vague idea and a cute name seems to work fine
18:11 < frankenmint> i mean in my opinion that is what happens
18:11 < akstunt600> The recent fraud in Pharma with regards too academics works is an example of the brokeness
18:11 < akstunt600> its completely not working the way it is already
18:11 < frankenmint> fun quick find from this talking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Scientist
18:12 < akstunt600> hehe thats cool
18:12 < ajweiss> pharma gets even more complicated
18:12 < moa> oh wait, we could monetise citation ratings in an altcoin ... make it more corrupt than it already is
18:12 < ajweiss> with all it's weird incentives.  even just the system for determining merit and awarding grant funds in basic biology is a mess...
18:13 < ajweiss> the gatekeepers are basically employees of elsevier and nature
18:13 < frankenmint> lets have a thought experiment:  can a volunteerism FOSS exclusive society succeed over existing systems?
18:13 < frankenmint> ajweiss: lexusnexus also comes to mind
18:13 < akstunt600> heh
18:14 < moa> proof of work is abit like publish or perish
18:14 < ajweiss> for example: a paper in nature or science is estimated to be worth just over a million in grant funds
18:15 < akstunt600> with the proper incentives a gofundme or kickstarter might work well
18:15 < akstunt600> its an already proven thing
18:15 < akstunt600> Facebook should have been on this way back in the day
18:15 < akstunt600> lol
18:17 < ajweiss> problem with crowdfunding is that it rewards charlatans... but how can you ever really know who the charlatans really are?
18:17 < TD-Linux> gmaxwell, oh no it's sciencedirect
18:17 < frankenmint> I ignore crowdfunding for that reason ajweiss
18:17 < frankenmint> til of star citizen, never even heard of it
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18:40 < bramc> gmaxwell, 'bleak' is right
18:41 < bramc> Did the great firewall start blocking bitcoin? Did china make it illegal? Is there a barely-connected bitcoin network sitting within China?
18:45 < bramc> Does anybody know if ZK-based proof of time scheme (which would hence have good witness size) would be demonstrably canonical, assuming the security assumptions held up?
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21:38 < www> hey guys
21:38 < www> what do you think of BitAlias? https://medium.com/@yanislav/bitalias-7b66bffed9d8
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